SWST wrote:Then specify parameters determining when you believe the Federation will use BVR and when it will not, and your canon evidence to back this up.
Anytime they require to shoot something beyond tens of kilometers or in other words any argument on your behalf that the Federation suffer a range disadvantage is flawed and incorrect.
They can, but the fact that they don't in many cases implies that they won't
They prefer close combat for reasons best known to themselves but every time they need to shoot at something far away they accomplish it without issue. So to be quite plain spoken no Star Trek suffers no range disadvantage in comparison to Star Wars or any combat scenario thus within.
A better analogy is to claim that a rifle cannot accurately hit a moving target at 5000 meters because you saw combat footage of veteran soldiers failing to fire at the enemy until they close within 200 meters.
Actually it would be you arguing a rifle can shot a target at 200 meters because you saw a soldier miss the guy who jumped from around the corner and knifed him.
Something prevents them from doing so ever during pitched battles. Whether this is due to poor combat coordination, fear of missiles being shot down, poor accuracy or just monumental stupidity is irrelevant.
We have no evidence anything prevents merely that they do not wish to do so. There is a difference. Now if you had eight or nine examples of them stating ship X is out of range in a messy fleet battle and we can see they are tens of kilometers apart that would be a contridiction but not this.
There is no prerequisite that hyperbole must involve fancy prose or word choice
You were trying to suggest it was hyperbole and I was making the distiction between it and the words you argue for.
Yes, your example does demonstrate more raw firepower from a rifle. Mine is a submachine gun equivalent being used in practical combat situations, as said firepower was demonstrated multiple times in the one scene. Yours was a full powered blast that is never used in combat.
A firepower supported by my other quotes and similar yields have been displayed elsewhere such
as here in Insurection
Granted not quite as powerful as say Worf's First contact shot since they used three weapons but in the same league.
Blasters display superior firepower when compared to phaser firepower that is actually displayed in combat.
Actually everytime phasers disintergrate someone that is a far higher firepower than any blaster has ever done. And I have already linked to a phaser disintergration so I see no need to do so once again.
rifles vaporizing metal door panels on the Death Star
I remember a door being blow open I don't remember it being vaporized or that it was done by an imperial blaster.
Zam using an advanced targeting system never rivaled by handheld weapons in ST that shot a baby sized moving target in a crowd of millions of fast moving objects from several hundred meters away
Then please provide where ever this came from and we can discuss it.
and clone troopers blaster droids into pieces with DC15's
Blowing B1 battledroids into chunks is still far below Worf's shot or the insurection shot or the Return to Grace quote.
In Voyager: The 37's, for example, redshirts with their pee-pee phasers fail to make a dent in the natural rock formations of the ambushers, who had fired upon and missed the crew from a few meters away while they were in the middle of an open plain with no forewarning of any kind.
Which merely means phasers were on a lower setting a canon known ability of phasers. No contridiction.
My point exactly. Your showings therefore have no practical application, wheras my less extreme but applicable examples do.
My showings have extreme practical application that they are not always used is a shame but thats a television show for you. I have proved it is canon that phaser firepower is extremely impressive and you will have to adjust to that fact.
Perhaps the only case in which your level 16 uber-power may be relevant is in regards to taking our armored vehicles, which I will be addressing in a moment.
Actually our canon statment on level 16 was described as taking out half of a building through Riker was a little out of sorts at the moment.
The idea that they drain lots of power is simply a common sense guess
No. You are arguing it is prohibativly power intensive so provide canon evidence supporting your theroy.
1. Numerical disparity. A larger population pool (and home base), millions of clone divisions (ICS).
Population is easily subdued and the clone army counted in the millions as that episode I linked to you a few pages back mad clear.
2. Artillery, motors.
The Federation has mortars as well and the clonewars usage of artillery is a bit spotty.
3. Snipers, grenades (including 100 meter thermal bombs), chemical weapons, mines
I'm detecting very little evidence you promised to provide.
6. Armor and advanced HUD systems.
Is there a solitary G-canon bit of evidence to support anything but radios in their helmets, not even holo displays just audio radios?
1. Impractical communications device designed for ship duties, not infantry combat.
I fail to see how a combadge is particuarly impractical.
2. No standardized organization or branch dedicated to infantry combat; ground warfare is a rarity in Trek and they are inexperienced at it.
Maco's would disagree with you there and if you are claiming they are inexperienced at ground warefare please provide supporting evidence.
3. No motors, grenades, artillery.
They have mortars as I already shown, grenades have been observed with rival powers such as the Dominion stun-grenade.
. No armor
Here Body armor.
5. No NCP protection
True but neither do clonetroopers/stormtroopers, remember the blue shadow virus?
6. No armored vehicles or any specialized counter to them
Actually I think the shuttle qualiify since its for all intents a flying tank and there is the Breen CRM-114 rifle
Buisness as Usual wrote:QUARK
The Breen CRM-one-fourteen works
equally well against moving
vessels or surface emplacements.
It's guaranteed to cut through
reactive armor in the six-to-
fifteen centimeter range, and
shields up to four-point-six
gigajoules.
Being sold to the galactic equivilent of tinplated dicators and indicates ground battles in Trek involve shielding up to four point six gigajoules.
7. No automatic weapons.
Considering they likely have a firing cycle measured in miliseconds, as the Cardasion rifle makes clear, that is incorrect.
8. No combined arms tactics.
Phasers render most other distinct weapons obsolete, why waste time building a carbine, a rifle and amachine gun when the phaser can do the job of all of them?
9. Most of their weapons don't have trigger guards.
Several don't have triggers as we'd call it. The point? They canonically don't all shoot themselves in the foot.
My 300 per ship calculation averaged the large but rare Galaxies with the various small fighter craft that still count towards the ship count.
Where does it state fighters are in ship count? Please provide this source.
note that 30,000 is an enormous number pulled out of my ass to be generous to Trek,
It was the number you kept running with, figured I deserved a giggle.
your total troop count would be insufficient to occupy Coruscant.
You are free to argue this but so far G-canon supports easily conqured populations.
Prove it
Clones are the primary army of the Republic, the Grand army of the Republic. They number in the millions. They are not represented as a tiny minority awash in a huge, bulging army of nonclones.
Many TCW episodes depict local militia fighting alongside clone troopers.
Never claimed no one would fight, simply not in mass as you desire. With Wookiees or on Ryloth the clonetroopers were not depicted as massviely dwarfed by the native militias.
1% of Coruscant's populace being conscripted (a ridiculously low percentage for wartime, let alone invasion) = 30 - 300 billion soldiers from a single planet. Armed with sticks and stones, they would beat back your invasion.
And if they drafted 300 billion the clones would be a minority which isn't what we see. There is no getting around this, the Clonewars was a major war in the history of Star Wars and for the most part the actual populace were either spectators or trampled upon.
So not enlisting en mass over a war you fight for an unpopular government in the outskirts of the outer rim (which is a false presupposition by you) equates to refusing to fight to fend off an invasion of your home planet?
What? The Clonewars was a massive military conflict across the Republic with the Seppies conquring several planets and looting and plundering them. They sold an entire colony into slavery for crying out loud this is not some brushfire war on the frontier this was a mammoth battle for the soul of the Republic. As to the goverment what evidence do you have Palpy was unpopular? He appeared to have almost everyone wrapped around his finger.
There is a story, if I can find it, of Union troopers that captured a Confederate soldier. They asked him why he was fighting, since he was poor, never owned slaves and never would, and had no reason to hate the North. His response? "Because you're over here."
Wouldn't doubt it. But we are talking about Star Wars not the Confederate States of America. Stick to canon and make your case.
Prove that Obi Wan was being literal.
He was given brigades and sent to Utapa? It meshes with batallions of clones taking out Umbara?
Prove that Obi Wan only possessed a "few brigades" even though:
taken form here
ROTS Script wrote:MACE: (continuing) Obi-Wan, prepare two clone brigades as quickly as you can. If this report is true, there's no telling how many battle droids he may have with him.
You will always meet massive, organized militia resistance when you invade any civilization.
Not according to Star Wars canon. And that is the short and long of it.
You have no problem with claiming without reason that SW civilians will be terrified by your "seemingly endless waves of troops", yet cannot bring yourself to admit that even one out of every thousand civilian will want to take arms to defend his or her self and family.
I am following the canon. Worlds are easily taken.
The ICS states that there are "millions of clone divisions".
Over ruled by the canon policy you said we must follow.
Several books, such as the FOTJ series, mention police forces on Coruscant. Since they happen to arrive within minutes of a crime being reported in many instances, you cannot claim that this police force is some sort of super rare, underfunded group of misfits, either.
The appear in TCW too, mostly as robots however.
If only one in every ten thousand people were police officers (a ridiculously low number for even a rural, low violence area, let alone a crowded galactic capital with a seedy underworld), you would have hundreds of millions to tens of billions of them.
And do we have canon numbers on them? Do we know how much territory they actually patrol? Because most of the cops I've seen hang out with the senators in the good side of Coruscant not the seedy underhive.
So in a population of trillions
Trillion, singular.
how many police officers, stationed troops, volunteers and conscripts do you think there will be?
What I think isn't revelant. It is what we have canon for, if there are billions of soldiers just sitting on Coruscant provide evidence for them.
Do not say "I don't know", since you also have to prove that you can take Coruscant too, and the number of hostiles you will have to face is important.
But I do not know, it would be a known unknown and at best I can make educated guesses based upon what I know such as looking at the Clonewars, noting how many soldiers they deploy during that conflict, how aggressivly member worlds fought to defend themselves ect.
A passive populace does not secede and start a civil war.
But they follow their leader who does.
I would be interested in seeing the giant sized armies needed to conquer Federation planets.
Well for starters we weren't talking about Federation worlds, you were stating your belief the Federation couldn't hope to transport enough soldiers to conqure even Naboo and I was merely enlightening you on the actual numbers deployed to take these worlds.
2. I'd point to the forty billion lost in Yesterday's Enterprise against the Klingons, the 900 billion projected to be lost to the Dominion in Statisitcal Probabilities as the sort of resietence expected to be incured taking the Federation.
No, that is your interpretation of the universe we wish to debate that you openly admit goes against statistics, human behavior and common sense and yet proudly wear it as if it were your badge.
It is canon, spelled out quite plainly and approved of by the one who is the Lord and Master of the verse in question. If you disregard it on a whim you are no longer debating Star Wars.
You claim that SW populations are "passive" and easily controlled, even though there needed to be an omnipresent force of clone troopers (Ladybrinth) on Coruscant
And ROTS and the clonewars tops out a C-canon book. Look either they are extremely sedate or they have almost no population on them. I picked the least stupid opition Lucas has provided.
which has a seedy underbelly
I didn't say there wouldn't be a criminal element but that isn't an organized resiestence that's getting mugged and waking up outside a bar with your wallet missing.
there are many references to space pirates
Pirates would not be part of the sedate population no and if you have canon evidence as to thier numbers please feel free to bring them into our discussion.
tens of thousands of star systems seceded from the Republic and openly waged war against it and a Rebel Alliance formed against the Empire.
Neither of which contridicts or invalidates anything I have posted.
But no, they're all "passive" when their homes and families are being invaded!
And if you have G-canon evidence of millions or billions of people rising up to form a militia or really anything actually specific I'd really want to see it.
At full power, it can blow a half meter hole in ferroconcrete, the SW version of concrete.
The quote if you please.
My bad, I was not aware that a probe droid possessed a weapon hundreds of times more powerful than any other small arms weapon ever used in the universe.
Considering its a tad bigger than your standard blaster rifle and this is a one off occurence lightyears ahead of the other examples bringing it up is hardly definative for Imperial weapons.
By the way, it was observed
No it wasn't. That was a blaster, fired in pulses, the weapon was described as a laser beam
TESB Novelization wrote:"A thin blue-white beam of light shot from one of the probe robot's appendages, its intense heat boring into the white mound and scattering gleaming snow flecks in all directions.
The mound began to shiver, then to quake. Whatever existed beneath it was deeply irritated by the robot's probing laser beam."
TESB Novelization wrote:"The droid made an internal adjustment to regulate the potency of its laser beam. Less than a moment later the beam was at maximum intensity. The machine aimed the laser at the creature, enveloping it in a great flaming and smoking cloud. Seconds later the few remaining particles of the Wampa were swept away by the icy winds.
The smoke disappeared, leaving behind no physical evidence—save for a large depression in the snow—that an Ice Creature had ever been there."
Doesn't sound remotely like a blaster bolt.
and your objection would be irrelevant even if it weren't, as it is not contradicted by the movies. What was the point of that statement? To continue to show that you don't understand Chee's canon policy or basic common sense?
My point being its one example being extrodinary more powerful than Imperial weapons are depicted as, its an outlier. It isn't a standard weapon, its scale isn't observed again etc.
Thermal bombs aren't "little jewels", they are commonplace to the point of being used on a backwater prison planet nobody cares about.
And Photon grenades were stocked piled at a colony on the edge of the Federation.
Your proton bomb is never seen or used
Here
Thermal detonators are used hundreds of times throughout the EU. If your weapon isn't mass produced, why does it matter?
You are arguing they are not mass produced?
Homefront wrote:LEYTON
We've been preparing for something
like this for a long time. We
have stockpiles of phaser rifles,
personal forcefields, photon
grenades, enough to equip an
entire army. I can start placing
troops in the streets immediately
No it would not. You provide no calculations and no evidence. Try again.
here since I currently don't have access to the Imperial source book. They punch through by finding the weakspot and firing a concetrated volley followed by a turbolaser blast. With Trek Sensors and thousands of ships replicating this little feature should not be difficult.
Ensigns of Command wrote:In Ensigns of Command, natural radiation non-lethal to plants and unprotected humans disperses phaser beams and stops transportors.
RIKER
Tau Cygna Five is in the de Laure
belt -- heavy concentrations of
hyperonic radiation.
STAR TREK: "Ensigns of Command" - REV. 7/14/89 - TEASER 4.
4 CONTINUED:
PICARD
Humans can't survive in such an
environment. Exposure to
hyperonic radiation is fatal.
RIKER
Then the Sheliak are asking us
to chase ghosts.
It was quite harmful to humans, and it was regarded as something as a miracle the people had adapted to it.
Indeed, in every three episodes at the very least, some sort of completely random
Please list all series of star trek then and see if your theroy is correct.
A simple jamming device would stop any beaming
You will need to provide evidence for this assertion. Ionization has been known to hinder beaming, as well as radiations through those tend to kill organics with prolonged exposuer, but a random jamming device would fall to you to prove.
Too big.
If you wish to claim weapons which can obliterate rock and metal as phasers have been demostrated to do can't dig a trench needed to trip an AT-AT you will need to provide evidence. They are not that big nor are they particuarly stable.
No presence of Federation shuttle with long, durable cable.
Actually I meant infantry doing it since the thing is a giant, lumbering target they should see off for miles and detect further out with tricorders. Granted you need two buildings or similar to string the cord out but it is an option.
Useless, they would bounce off.
here and
here for what a shuttle can do
As to phasers look back to that metal disc and that rock wall and imagine volleys of such shots striking the AT-AT.
Useless, LAAT's are shielded and can so accurate that they can shoot missiles out of the sky (RotS novelization).
Shuttles are shield and Runabouts can take a couple of blasts from Dominion Bugships.
In addition the bare hull of a 22nd century shuttlepod could take a quarter kiloton blast at a few meters. LAATs will be handled fairly swiftly and easily
I would be interested as to where redshirts had fighter grade weaponry
Look back at Worf or the insurection scene or anytime some is disintergrated. All far more energetic than what we saw at Genosis.
Unless if their shields are weaker than natural rock formations
I think I have demostrated rock formations are not match for a phaser.
or a door that phasers couldn't budge, but Wolf could by ramming it).
You will need to provide far more than merely a refrence. Pictures, video, script, something.
Simple; protect them with supressing fire, an unknown phenomona to Trek.
Evidence suppression fire is unknown to Trek.
Or hope that the redshirts that miss each other in the corriders of a ship will simply fail to hit it.
You will provide evidence of atrocious aim on the Federation part, since you are trying to argue an accuracy advantage for the Wars side.
Redshirts are not gunships.
Very simple. Fighter grade weapons crack Droidekas like walnuts, fighter grade weaponry is not overly energetic in the films and Genonosis in particular, far less than high end phaser showings. Ergo if a fighter can kill a shielded robot a phaser can.
Are are said to be the rough equal of a Jedi Knight in combat (I shit you not) and their armor requires significant strain from a Jedi to puncture it with a lightsaber.
Then they would be a difficult foe to defeat.
Please understand that running into combat with trigger guard-less phasers, no armor, and no combined arms formations is not redeemed by some fancy technology used once or twice in the entire series.
Once or twice? I have provided five seperate pieces of evidence supporting my position and as I have stated trigger guards are hardly crucial, armor they posses if only a light combat jacket and they have no need for combined small arms.
No, "uncounted quadrillions" does not say "less than ten quadrillion". You're clearly confused mathematically, as you seem to think that 100 quadrillion is not in the set of quadrillions.
No I'm assuming when someone says uncounted "X" he means "X" not "Y" times "X". This is simiple human speech.
No, you're the one that's speculating now. "uncounted quadrillions" may not be very eloquent to you to state 100 quadrillion, but it does not contradict the Essential Atlas.
No. I am assuming the more likely, and simplier, option of the two offered choices. That my friend is logic.
I love how you love to apply reasonable supsicion as the evidence needed to overturn perfectly logical figures (100 quadrillion for a galaxy, millions of divisions for a galactic army), yet apply "beyond a reasonable doubt" to any figure that you admit makes no sense whatsoever (4 million man army to fight a galaxy, a few thousand troops taking control of a planet) that just happens to support your position.
My position being adhereing to the evidence.
Your failure to actually refute my position on the basis of its arguments instead of lumping into a group of "fan calcs" is irritating and amusing at the same time.
What basis may I ask? You were complaining the numbers "don't make sense" arguing to ignore Lucas's approved figures for his universe. What you were doing was exactly fan calculations which can never trump Lucas.
The stupidity of this quote burns unimaginably.
You were the one who claimed their must be other ports. There is nothing in the quote itself that demands it. There could be or there could be not.
By that logic, Star Wars must have figured out a way to produce hyper-efficient supplies and food that can keep trillions of citizens alive and healthy using only a few million tons of supplies every day. That is called magic.
More or less.
Your blockade fails miserably as my people can be fed indefinitely just by hoarding supplies produced in by a year in an early space flight democratic republic
Ah it takes the greatest frieght docks in the Galaxy and continually coming frieghters to transfer just this millions of tons of supplies I don't think you can just hoarde more.
What point? He merely mentioned that there were a million systems of the Empire. There is no blatant contradiction of C canon sources that are perfectly reasonable and fair. Again, this goes back to your assumption that the slightest quote from the internal thoughts of a man that could not make perfect sense with something that you refuse to believe counts as reason to dismiss it entirely.
He's talking about the Empire, which sprang from the 100,000 thousand world Republic, there is no reason not for him to include fifty million colonies when he says the million systems of the empire.
"Sixth planet in the hoth system"
Obviously I'm not stating there wouldn't be other rocks in space in the system but they are not multiple habited planetary bodies, the Hoth system has as far as we know only Hoth supporting life.
Actually, you bring up a good point in the phrase "system". The obvious reconciliation at this point is that there are a million planets and 50 million colonies spread out over a million systems. This is a fine rationalization.
Please list mutiple planet systems with life, civilization etc surly if there are hiding fifty million worlds you should be able to find several refrences to systems sharing.
But whenever the quote (however logical and mathematically consistent it is) favors Wars, you refuse to rationalize at all. Your solution is to always throw out the C canon quote and say that it has 0% truth to it.
I accept G-canon first and then look at C-canon to see if it can be bent to made to work with the highest canon yes.
I have already addressed this 10000000023123 times. It would not be an exact 1 to 1 ratio. It would be loosely proportional. What you fail to understand is that whether you scale 1:1 or 1000:1 does not change the outcome of this debate.
You have noticiably failed to provide evidence of the superfleets just thinking would bring about.
sonofccn believes that Trek ships will use ranges of 100,000 kilometers whenever it is beneficial for them to do so, even though they have been in positions to do so and bluntly failed to use it.
Whenever it would be impractical or impossible to carry out their prefrence to short ranged attacks. Fleeing frieghters would be such a scenario.
sonofccn believes that a population of several trillion civilians will not have a 0.1% volunteer rate when their families are threatened by direct invasion, even though the average peacetime volunteer ratio for an unpopular war abroad in the United States is around 3%.
Canon states planets are easily subdued, brigades and batallions are tossed around not divisions. I can not ignore canon.
sonofccn believes that 160 million troops (as an extreme upper limit) can occupy a planet of trillions because the population is "passive". That means that there will be one soldier for every ten thousand citizens.
Actually we are talking of conquring not holding and you talking about raising billions strong militia armies to route mine but the resiestence is canonical set low and starships are great equilizers.
sonofccn believes that a city spanning the entire surface of a planet only has one port.
No actually. I state there was no evidence for additional ports in contrast to your "its obvious" statment. I have not argued for it either way merely corrected that from the quote itself nothing demands additional ports.
sonofccn believes that a colony inhabiting a completely unpopulated planet with the benefits of space age medicinal technology will only reach one million people in 25,000 years of population growth, in spite of the population growth of the Americas being millions of times greater despite numerous plagues that routinely killed off 1/3 of the populace.
It doesn't matter what I believe Lucas has set the population for the Republic at Trillions. That is a solid canon fact and to fight against it would be akin to fight against gravity in our universe.
sonofccn believes that a starfleet that can only muster two ships to counter a Romulan attack on one of their colonies (Angel One) and whose nearest starship to an important starbase is 66 hours away (11001001), feels the need to ally with a rival civiliation to investigate the disappearance of a few outposts (The Neutral Zone) when a star going nova and swallowing a sapient species whole inspires minimal discussion (Bounty Hunter) in Star Wars, it takes three weeks for a transport ship to arrive (Ensigns of Command) compared to Yoda, who mobilized for the dormant-for-twenty-years Grand Army of the Republic in a matter of hours (AotC) with thousands of kilometer long Acclamators (AotC novel), who are terrified and initiate "Yellow Alert" to just thirty Warbirds heading towards the Neutral Zone (All Good Things) and their only response is to deploy fifteen starships can actually win.
[/quote]1.Fleet numbers have been provided to you by multiple people. I won't repeat them.
2. The alliance consisted of an exchange of information between two captains to try and find the cause of the disaperence of several outposts it has nothing to do with anything.
3.Without knowing where the star went nova it could have been in wild space and no one was around to talk about it
4. It takes weeks for a dedicated transport with sufficent shuttles to lift the colonists out of a hyperadiation flooded planet.
5.Please cite the revalent passage for thousands of kilometer long Acclamators
6.While your at it please post the revelent portions of All Good Things
7.Actually I never said I thought the Federation would win. Indeed read my first post in this thread and I say just the opposite. I merely do not agree with your calculations.
In closing SWST take a breath, collect your evidence and then post. If you do not have evidence then we are through with our discussion.
