The Romulan Star Empire and The Ferengi vs the republic

[sonofccn]

the alternate is being restricted by SW hyperdrive something that is only rivaled by the Dune universes spice based dependency for accurate FTL

or take years to go anywhere

perhaps but it helps keeps from the Trek side from steamrolling everything.

that is true although The Romulans might be satisfied with an empire consisting of the outer rim worlds and some mid rim sectors and that's that? or too crazy arrogant for such a thing.

I say crazy arrogant enough to keep pushing thinking everything is going swell until it all hits the fan. But that's my opinion of course.

the Romulans are gonna fight the war the way they normally do they are IC so expect allot of back alley dealings and subterfuge and what have you before the first Volley is gonna be fired. As for the industrial edge I doubt it's massive despite being smaller then the Federation they managed to throw their industry and warfleet into the DW with enough numbers and fleets to be a serious contender. They also managed to secretly fill that moon on Bajor full of their weapons and shit with out any one knowing, so they're no slouches here either

Oh they are sneaky and treacherous and all that but even with slipstream they can be anyplace but they can't be everyplace. In the end I think sheer numbers, ships, people and worlds, are simply going to take thier toll. Death by winning if you will but still death.

[Trinoya]

And Tinoya, if you take the T canon claim that a few million clones would bankrupt a galactic society that routinely maintains mountain dwarfing, for example, then explain this:

The Death Stars were constructed by the Empire, not the republic. I'd recommend you do as little as possible to connect the two economies as the republic is a bloody joke, where as the Empire is organized enough to build death stars (helps when you can just choke the shit out of anyone who disagrees with your budget proposals, speeds up the red tape).

So again, recommend you end that line of reasoning. It is far more likely that the corruption that plagued the Republic was merely removed via aggressive negotiations when palpy took over... and is the easiest way to reconcile the two.

[Mike DiCenso]

Let's actually analyze this instead of making a string of threads that will devolve into the same arguments.

Slipstream at its height is still far slower than hyperdrive. The Ferengi are less competent than the Voyager or ST:Enterprise crew, and neither they nor the Romulans match the industrial capacity of the Galactic Republic. If they are monopolizing trade, the Republic says 'screw you' to them and boots them out.

According to the G canon ROTS film-novel, there are quadrillions of citizens in the Republic; the Romulans are massively outnumbered by several orders of magnitude, they have no sustainable supply routes with travel times of several months, their entire armed forces would be outnumbered by a single sector fleet, and their entire ground based military lacks the numbers to take a single medium populated Star Wars planet.

The Ferengi fail as soon as the Republic notice their monopolizing of trade and boot them out.

The Romulans fail as soon as they get a fleet of millions of ships knocking on their doorstep.

And Mike, if you try and dispute the 'millions of ships' claim, I can just pull out a certain image of a certain very famous battlestation, and you'll have to claim that the Empire's industrial capability exceeds the Republic's by several orders of magnitude, and then you'll have to back that up.

Slipstream at it's height was not limited to "months" of travel across the Milky Way galaxy. That was the drive at it's slowest speed, placed in a false message by Arturis to fool the Voyager crew.

The slipstream drive was capable of much faster speeds, as Arturis made the Dauntless go even went faster when Janeway and Seven broke out of their confinement cell, and Voyager equipped with slipstream went even faster to catch up with the Dauntless. They both cross nearly 1,000 light years in less than a few hours time.

However, the real big show of what slipstream was capable of was done in "Timeless" when Voyager crossed 10,000 light years in less than a couple minutes time as seen in this clip here. Now to be really conservative, let's say that Voyager took a full 10 minutes to travel 10,000 LY.

Thus the following:

365 x 10,000 = 3,650,000 days

3,650,000 x 24 = 87,600,000 hours

87,600,000 x 60/10 = 525,600,000c

Over half a billion c. It would take them only 2 hours to travel from one side of the 120,000 LY EU SW Galaxy to the other. The Death Star does not even figure into this as the OP sets this in the SW timeline a century before the first battlestation was operational, much less conceived. The first of the Old Republic dreadnaughts are just being launched in 100 BBY, and are nothing on the scale of a Star Destroyer.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

[
Because we see the Death Star on screen, and it's the size of millions of km long ships.

now go back and find a republic battle where more then a hundred ships took place in it.

oh wait..you can't the films don't have such battles nor does the clone wars

[Praeothmin]

1. Why are you using caps lock?

Becaus you seem to fail to read anything else properly...

2. Did you even read the Maul feat I posted above?

Yep, but without numbers, the example is worth nothing...

3. The above calculation is using G canon evidence.

And is only 1 such incident, and is clearly a high end speed.
For this to be considered SW's average speeds, you'd have to find many other such examples, which you don't have...

4. Said G canon evidence overrides your 440,000 C claim.

Nope, because the example you posted is good for Darth Maul's ship.
You failed to prove it is the same for all ships, in all instances...

But you're probably going to notice that I didn't specify Maul's exact speed, because I figured that you could calculate it yourself, since I displayed all the variables and the formula is simple speed, but I'll calculate it. Coruscant is in the galactic core while Tatooine is on the outer rim, so we can assume distances of 5000 light years if we use a small 10,000 LY diameter for the SW galaxy. In 6 hours that would require speeds of 7.3 million C.

As for Darth Maul, thank you for finally doing some god damn work on your own, and providing calculations.
But, I'm not sure about your timetable.
Darth Maul gets the order right after the group on Tatooine is eating lunch, and lands at Dusk.
Let's say it took him 1 hour to depart Coruscant (preparation, and takeoff) and 1 hour to get out of Hyperspace and land on the planet.
This means his trip took 10 hours, not 6, for an actual speed of 4.38 million c.
Still very impressive, but not 20 times the speed I gave you for the ST:Gen example, barely 9 times, and that is one example, so it is not even good enough for an average...
Plus, in ST:FC, the E-E travels from the Romulan Neutral zone to Earth in a matter of minutes.
In ENT, they first encounter the Romulans 130 LY from Earth.
Say the Romulans expanded, and their borders came closer to Earth, say at 65 LY (which is unrealistic that they made so much headway into federation territory, but let's use this as a lower end mark).
We see the Borg engage the fleet, ships are destroyed left and right.
The E-E leaves the Neutral Zoone and head to Earth.
We can easily assume the trip was done in less than 30 minutes, as at the rate the Federation forces were losing ships (almost one every 3 seconds) when we see the battle, it means they would have lost 600 ships in the time it took the E-E time to travel to the fight.
So 65 LY in 30 minutes is 1.1388 million c.
Only 4 times less than Maul's trip...

As for other SW speeds in higher canon:
AotC:
Amidala takes less than an hour to travel from Tattoine to Geonosis, less than a PARSEC away, so 3.26 LY in one hour is 31,974c.

ANH:
Han claims that he'll have Jabba's money in "three weeks." Thus, from Tattooine to Alderaan (less than 5000 LY) and back cannot take any more than three weeks' round trip. Luke's training takes place entirely within the Tattooine-Alderaan run; thus, at least some hours elapsed on board the Falcon.
Let's be generous and say the trip was done in less then a day, then 1,825,000c.

Setting out to Dantooine immediately before the destruction of Alderaan (Alderaan – Dantooine trip, about 2000 LY, or 2/10th SW Galaxy, in less than 24 hours, speeds over 730 000c) and after the departure of the Falcon, Imperial scouts checked the place before the Falcon arrived.

RotJ:
The Rebel fleet launches from Sullust, "hundreds of light years" from Endor, a scene split between scenes in the early morning Endor time. They arrive during an afternoon.

This is most likely the same afternoon, and Endor's day seems of similar length to Earth's, then the Rebel fleet took roughly 6-12 hours to arrive. The distance to Sullust should be between 200 and 1,000 light years, meaning that the total speed is 400-4,000 light years per day, or 150,000-1,500,000c.
As per the Maps in every source I found, Endor and Sullust are 1/10th of the galaxy diameter away from one another, so 1000 LY is closer to actual number.
So 1000 LY in 12 hours is 730,000c.

So except for the Maul speed, all other high end speeds derived from the movies are closer to a million c, so as I said many times, while I do agree FTL advantage is with SW in known territory, it is far less than 20 times ST speeds, at times not even twice as fast...

As for ST:
-TOS, "That Which Survives": the E-Nil travels 990.7 LY in less than 24 hours equals 361 606c;
-TOS, "Obsession": the E-Nil travels 2000 LY in a round trip in less than 48 hours, or 365 000c;
-ST V: the E-A travels between 17 000 to 25 000 LY in less than 7 hours, or between 21 274 286c and 31 285 714c;
-ST Gen: the E-B travels between 3 LY in less than 3 minutes, or 525 600c;
-TNG, "The Chase": the E-D is expected to travel around 40 000 LY in less than “a few weeks”. If it’s 2 weeks, then 960 000c, but if it’s 4 weeks, then 480 000c. Although Picard, if he had gone to Indri VIII, 30 000LY away, was willing to inconvenience some squabbling delegates for “a few days”;
- TNG, "Where Silence has Lease": While trapped in a special phenomena, the E-D is expected to travel around 1.4 Parsec, 4.564 LY, in less than a minute, or 2 398 838.4c;
- TNG, "The Wounded": the E-D estimated 10 LY in less than 22 minutes at Warp 9, or 239 148c;


So we see how much closer the speed differences are between the two factions...

[Praeothmin]

Because we see the Death Star on screen, and it's the size of millions of km long ships.

I fully agree the Empire had the capacity to build these millions of ships, except they didn't, they built the DS instead...
So they do not have these millions of ships, but again, I agree with you the industrial might of the Empire is staggering...
Not the Republic of old, but the Empire does indeed have that might...

[Khas]

Which would seem to imply that while the Empire had the industrial capacity, they didn't have the manpower to actually man millions of ships. Remember, the Death Star, when fully crewed, had a population of one million. That's only about thirty ISDs' worth of crew.

[Mike DiCenso]

Yes, but also remember it's even worse than that. Most of the crew on an ISD or the older SDs are not actual crew required to operate and maintain the vessel, but are there solely as troops who act in either security roles, or whose job it is to go down and secure a planet in ground action.

I mean it's not like the Empire actually has to put huge numbers of troops on every single ship in the fleet, even if they are ISDs. But there in lies another contradiction: is the man power shortage because the SW tech for cloning isn't up to par to make more of the super-loyal troops? How much many absolutely loyal non-clone officers and enlisted men can the Empire reliably recruit?
-Mike

[Picard]

And question is how long it took for Death Stars to be built? DSI was probably built over span of some 20-30 years (remember, Trade Federation started building it, and construction was waaay underway when Empire took over). Meaning that DSII's construction might have lasted for again 20-30 years, due to size difference.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Becaus you seem to fail to read anything else properly...

You do realize that caps lock is harder to read than regular speech, right? That's why you typically don't use caps lock.

Yep, but without numbers, the example is worth nothing...

Uh huh, because you cannot understand that traveling across a galaxy in hours is faster than taking 7 years to cross a portion of a quadrant, "low on fuel" my behind.

Speaking on that, you did not explain how Janeway diverting her personal dining room into a coffer is supposed to make a difference.

And is only 1 such incident, and is clearly a high end speed.
For this to be considered SW's average speeds, you'd have to find many other such examples, which you don't have...

You were citing individual quotes with a variation of an order of magnitude!

That being said, we have:

1. The Maul to Tatooine scene
2. The Obi Wan and Qui Gon to Tatooine scene
3. The Obi Wan, Qui Gon and Anakin to Coruscant
4. ...and back to Naboo
5. and back to Coruscant
etc

But hey, some of these are hard to calculate, but they point towards the same, consistent fact:

Hyperdrive allows for travel across the galaxy within a reasonable, emergency time frame. Padme traveled to Mustafar in the time it takes for Anakin to kill the seperatist leaders.

Nope, because the example you posted is good for Darth Maul's ship.
You failed to prove it is the same for all ships, in all instances...

You're claiming that Maul had a ship that was mysteriously faster than your military ship showings by a factor of 14?

And that Padme also had a super ship that could go to Mustafar in the time it takes Anakin to kill some seperatists?

Or that Anakin traveled halfway across the galaxy without noticeably aging?

As for Darth Maul, thank you for finally doing some god damn work on your own, and providing calculations.
But, I'm not sure about your timetable.
Darth Maul gets the order right after the group on Tatooine is eating lunch, and lands at Dusk.
Let's say it took him 1 hour to depart Coruscant (preparation, and takeoff) and 1 hour to get out of Hyperspace and land on the planet.
This means his trip took 10 hours, not 6, for an actual speed of 4.38 million c.

Where did you get your 10 hour figure from?

Still very impressive, but not 20 times the speed I gave you for the ST:Gen example, barely 9 times, and that is one example, so it is not even good enough for an average...
Plus, in ST:FC, the E-E travels from the Romulan Neutral zone to Earth in a matter of minutes.
In ENT, they first encounter the Romulans 130 LY from Earth.
Say the Romulans expanded, and their borders came closer to Earth, say at 65 LY (which is unrealistic that they made so much headway into federation territory, but let's use this as a lower end mark).
We see the Borg engage the fleet, ships are destroyed left and right.
The E-E leaves the Neutral Zoone and head to Earth.
We can easily assume the trip was done in less than 30 minutes, as at the rate the Federation forces were losing ships (almost one every 3 seconds) when we see the battle, it means they would have lost 600 ships in the time it took the E-E time to travel to the fight.
So 65 LY in 30 minutes is 1.1388 million c.
Only 4 times less than Maul's trip...

Hey, I could try and refute your calcs, but the fact is that it blatantly contradicts numerous showings in ST. Even with your made up limited fuel for Voyager, it should have been able to get back to Earth within days by your logic, and the dominion war would not involve claims that it would take weeks for reinforcements to arrive, and the entire galaxy could have easily been scouted out, and there would not be an official warp table showing a few thousand C, and there would not be in universe characters implying 9000 C, and there would not be claims that the nearest starbase is weeks away or that the Enterprise is the only ship in range when, by your calculations, every ship in the galaxy would be within decent range.

As for other SW speeds in higher canon:
AotC:
Amidala takes less than an hour to travel from Tattoine to Geonosis, less than a PARSEC away, so 3.26 LY in one hour is 31,974c.

"less than an hour" only defines an upper limit. Nice try.

ANH:
Han claims that he'll have Jabba's money in "three weeks." Thus, from Tattooine to Alderaan (less than 5000 LY) and back cannot take any more than three weeks' round trip. Luke's training takes place entirely within the Tattooine-Alderaan run; thus, at least some hours elapsed on board the Falcon.
Let's be generous and say the trip was done in less then a day, then 1,825,000c.

...1.8 million C would have helped the Federation a great deal in, well, every war and conflict it's had. When the dominion attack a planet? They whine and complain that the nearest reinforcements are weeks away, when they could have every ship there within days. Or when they get catapulted millions of light years away, they would not comment on how it would take centuries to get home, but instead that it would just take a year or two. Or when there is an emergency crisis and the Enterprise is conveniently the only ship in range, there would be an entire fleet of ships there within hours.

Not to mention that you out of nowhere claim that the trip was done "in less than a day" and that you're being generous, when you're really making a claim out of nothing. How do you know that it did not only take 4 hours?

Setting out to Dantooine immediately before the destruction of Alderaan (Alderaan – Dantooine trip, about 2000 LY, or 2/10th SW Galaxy, in less than 24 hours, speeds over 730 000c) and after the departure of the Falcon, Imperial scouts checked the place before the Falcon arrived.

"less than 24 hours" is low end, and already it's three orders of magnitude faster than:

PICARD: That's not possible. Data, what is our distance traveled?

DATA: Two million -- seven hundred thousand light years.

...

GEORDI: And I calculate that at maximum warp, sir ... it would take over three hundred years to get home.

The 9000 C calculated from above, and the official warp charts from Paramount.

RotJ:
The Rebel fleet launches from Sullust, "hundreds of light years" from Endor, a scene split between scenes in the early morning Endor time. They arrive during an afternoon.

How do you know it was an afternoon?

This is most likely the same afternoon, and Endor's day seems of similar length to Earth's,

How do you know?

then the Rebel fleet took roughly 6-12 hours to arrive. The distance to Sullust should be between 200 and 1,000 light years, meaning that the total speed is 400-4,000 light years per day, or 150,000-1,500,000c.

Which is...gasp...faster than 99.99% of ST showings.

As per the Maps in every source I found, Endor and Sullust are 1/10th of the galaxy diameter away from one another, so 1000 LY is closer to actual number.
So 1000 LY in 12 hours is 730,000c.

See above.

So except for the Maul speed, all other high end speeds derived from the movies are closer to a million c, so as I said many times, while I do agree FTL advantage is with SW in known territory, it is far less than 20 times ST speeds, at times not even twice as fast...

No, the quote above involving the Enterprise getting back to Earth has a very irrefutable, calculable statement implying 9000 C.

As for ST:
-TOS, "That Which Survives": the E-Nil travels 990.7 LY in less than 24 hours equals 361 606c;
-TOS, "Obsession": the E-Nil travels 2000 LY in a round trip in less than 48 hours, or 365 000c;
-ST V: the E-A travels between 17 000 to 25 000 LY in less than 7 hours, or between 21 274 286c and 31 285 714c;
-ST Gen: the E-B travels between 3 LY in less than 3 minutes, or 525 600c;
-TNG, "The Chase": the E-D is expected to travel around 40 000 LY in less than “a few weeks”. If it’s 2 weeks, then 960 000c, but if it’s 4 weeks, then 480 000c. Although Picard, if he had gone to Indri VIII, 30 000LY away, was willing to inconvenience some squabbling delegates for “a few days”;
- TNG, "Where Silence has Lease": While trapped in a special phenomena, the E-D is expected to travel around 1.4 Parsec, 4.564 LY, in less than a minute, or 2 398 838.4c;
- TNG, "The Wounded": the E-D estimated 10 LY in less than 22 minutes at Warp 9, or 239 148c;


So we see how much closer the speed differences are between the two factions...

I do not know context for most of these, so some would be helpful.

However, all of your calcs not only contradict lower end ST showings, but do not match the Darth Maul showing, and your contradictions of that involve intense amounts of guesswork (assuming that an Endor day = Earth day) and using lower limits as calcs.

[Praeothmin]

"low on fuel" my behind.

Yeah, it is possible yourbehind is low on fuel...
But as for Voyager, we've plastered this site for reasons why it couldn't go to its maximum speeds, and that a good map also makes for faster speeds, but of course, ingore it as you wish, I don't care...

That being said, we have:

1. The Maul to Tatooine scene
2. The Obi Wan and Qui Gon to Tatooine scene
3. The Obi Wan, Qui Gon and Anakin to Coruscant
4. ...and back to Naboo
5. and back to Coruscant
etc

But hey, some of these are hard to calculate, but they point towards the same, consistent fact:

Hyperdrive allows for travel across the galaxy within a reasonable, emergency time frame. Padme traveled to Mustafar in the time it takes for Anakin to kill the seperatist leaders.

For which you have no figures...

You're claiming that Maul had a ship that was mysteriously faster than your military ship showings by a factor of 14?

Why not?
After all, it also had a cloaking device, which no other ships had at that time...

And that Padme also had a super ship that could go to Mustafar in the time it takes Anakin to kill some seperatists?

And how long was that, and how do you know she didn't leave immediately after him?

Or that Anakin traveled halfway across the galaxy without noticeably aging?

Since the SW Galaxy is most likely 10 000LY across, and since ST crews travel half the Federation often without aging, I fail to see how this is relevent...

Where did you get your 10 hour figure from?

Using math?
Lunch is at 12, dusk is at midnight, which is a 12 hour difference...

I could try and refute your calcs

I doubt that...

but the fact is that it blatantly contradicts numerous showings in ST.

Prove it...

Even with your made up limited fuel for Voyager, it should have been able to get back to Earth within days by your logic,

Not if they can't use their maximum speeds in unknown territories, or if they are low on fuel, don't know exactly what route to take, etc...

and the dominion war would not involve claims that it would take weeks for reinforcements to arrive, and the entire galaxy could have easily been scouted out, and there would not be an official warp table showing a few thousand C, and there would not be in universe characters implying 9000 C, and there would not be claims that the nearest starbase is weeks away or that the Enterprise is the only ship in range when, by your calculations, every ship in the galaxy would be within decent range.

No, no, no, no, no and no, for many different reasons...
But one of the reasons I believe, because Voyager has shown us this truth, is that better maps yield better speeds, because it equals better navigation...
In known territory, the Federation for example, ST ships are almost as fast at their fastest, as SW ships, except they do seem to be unable to maintaint that high speed for as long as SW ships can...

"less than an hour" only defines an upper limit. Nice try.

And since you've failed to provide any contrary evidence, it counts...
Better luck next time...

...1.8 million C would have helped the Federation a great deal in, well, every war and conflict it's had. When the dominion attack a planet? They whine and complain that the nearest reinforcements are weeks away, when they could have every ship there within days. Or when they get catapulted millions of light years away, they would not comment on how it would take centuries to get home, but instead that it would just take a year or two. Or when there is an emergency crisis and the Enterprise is conveniently the only ship in range, there would be an entire fleet of ships there within hours.

And why is reinforcement weeks away, and when was that?
When was a SW ship catapulted millions of LY away and said they'd be back within a year or two?
And what was the situation where the Enterprise was the only ship in range?

Not to mention that you out of nowhere claim that the trip was done "in less than a day" and that you're being generous, when you're really making a claim out of nothing. How do you know that it did not only take 4 hours?

Prove it's most likely 4 hours and I'll accept it...

"less than 24 hours" is low end, and already it's three orders of magnitude faster than:

Prove it's low end...
And again, you use an incident with a ship sent millions of LY away, with no navigational data, no idea of the ideal route, no possibility of refueling they know of...
If I threw you and your car, with a full tank of gaz, in a desert, and told you "you are 1000km away from home, just drive east", you'd automatically start the car at full speeds in the direction I told you, not knowing if there were some natural hazards on the way, not knowing if you could repair your car if you broke it?
You'd be that stupid?

How do you know it was an afternoon?

Well, if the scene happens after we've seen morning, and it is no longer morning, then we can conclude it's the afternoon, no?

How do you know?

Educated guess based on what we see the heroes perform?
But if you wish, then we can say Endor has longer days, and slow the fleet's speed down a bit...

Which is...gasp...faster than 99.99% of ST showings.

Well, up to now, you've given us Voyager and when the E-D was flung far away, and that's it, so you basically have faile to provide any evidence supporting this claim...

No, the quote above involving the Enterprise getting back to Earth has a very irrefutable, calculable statement implying 9000 C.

1 incident, to which I can counter with Amidala's trip from Tattooine to Geonosis which is 32 000c...

all of your calcs not only contradict lower end ST showings,

You mean only the two incidents which you've been able to provide?

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Qui Gon: do you have a cloaking device?

Amidala: this is not a warship


For a nitpick. The fact that Qui Gon asked implies that such devices are not uncommon, and Amidala's reply both confirms that they exist and that war ships can be expected to have them.

[Mike DiCenso]

However, cloaking devices in Star Wars aren't as common as they could be. In TCW's "Cat and Mouse", the cloaking device on Anakin's stealth ship was a prototype that was a big deal, and yet was not very sophisticated by 24th century Trek standards. The EU cloaking devices tended to be double-blind affairs, and were mostly useless, unless there was a powerful Force user to guide the crews, or other out-of-box means.
-Mike

[Picard]

Qui Gon: do you have a cloaking device?

Amidala: this is not a warship


For a nitpick. The fact that Qui Gon asked implies that such devices are not uncommon, and Amidala's reply both confirms that they exist and that war ships can be expected to have them.

Where it is from?

[Mike DiCenso]

I'm kind of curious about that, too. I've seen two different attributions to this in TPM; that Qui-Gon asks Pananka, and now SWST is claiming Amidala says that. In the movie, at least for the Naboo escape scene, this does not happen, not unless it was cut out in the DVD release.
-Mike