a thermopylae type scenario in star wars

[Admiral Breetai]

Federation ships prior to the dominion war could monitor solar systems in real time

the Dominion showed sensor tech advanced enough to transport across lightyears

so why the hell would they have trouble navigating in SW space?

[Praeothmin]

For SW (or at least in Endor): hundreds of kilometers

Prove it...

Which is superceded by the films, and they contradict The Clone Wars. Therefore, you evidence is rendered invalid, whereas mine are completely fine (the films don't establish maximum ranges).

Nope, since you haven't proven anything...
Movies don't show hundreds of km engagements, and neither does the TCW, which are all above your novel examples... :)

Doomsday machine, Borg battles (Perhaps the most prominent examples given the huge size of the cubes), Star Trek 2009, ST: Nemesis...I'd invite you to show me exceptions.

SoA, WotW, battles of Chin'toka (both), VOY "Message in a Bottle", and all the other examples previously given numerous times...
So, using all those examples, the average battle in ST does not happen at 10km on average... :)

False, and even if it were true, the Dominion would not know the whereabouts of Star Wars planets.

Long range FTL sensors...

They'd still get lost, they'd still die of old age (the Dominion did not penetrate into the far reaches of the Federation)

Because the Federation was in full war mode, knew where they were coming from and was ready for them...

and they'd still have no means of penetrating planetary or theater shields.

Unproven...
Maybe not, maybe they could, but not all planets have them anyways...

They'd have no planets of their own either, and no means to refuel.

[/quote]

Unsupported...

[Admiral Breetai]

really what part of "they had more advanced sensor tech then the feds who could real time monitor entire solar systems from outside with a single ship"

I mean really SWSt


oh and gaining support in the outer rims would be mad easy hand out some industrial replicators and gain an instant following

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Prove it...

Excuse me? Weren’t you the one who said that the ranges shown at Endor were hundreds of kilometers, not thousands of kilometers?

Nope, since you haven't proven anything...
Movies don't show hundreds of km engagements, and neither does the TCW, which are all above your novel examples... :)

AND I’VE ALREADY EXPLAINED THIS TO YOU SEVERAL TIMES IN VARIOUS DIFFERENT THREADS. How do I have to word it before you understand Lucasarts canon policy? The books don’t have to be confirmed by the movies, they just can’t be contradicted.

SoA, WotW, battles of Chin'toka (both), VOY "Message in a Bottle", and all the other examples previously given numerous times...
So, using all those examples, the average battle in ST does not happen at 10km on average... :)

The average large scale battle in Star Trek range is 10 kilometers. You even said it yourself.

Long range FTL sensors...

…works both ways. And I’d invite you to show me when Dominion sensors mapped out a galaxy. Strange that the Federation hasn’t mapped out its own galaxy in however many centuries.

Because the Federation was in full war mode, knew where they were coming from and was ready for them...

Oh, and that wouldn’t apply to this too? After a huge fucking invasion of several hundred thousand Dominion ships and a giant battle, they’d still be scratching their heads?

Unproven...
Maybe not, maybe they could, but not all planets have them anyways...

No, that works the other way. You have to prove that they can penetrate planetary shields.

Unsupported...

Wow, I must have missed that episode where the Dominion had planets in the Star Wars galaxy.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Oh, and on unrelated news, a browse through spacebattles showed me something I hadn't realized before. You know when the Millennium Falcon first exited hyperspace and appeared in the Yavin system? It passed the gas giant Yavin's diameter and got to the moon, all in one scene!

[Praeothmin]

Excuse me? Weren’t you the one who said that the ranges shown at Endor were hundreds of kilometers, not thousands of kilometers?

No, I said the ranges at Endor were, at most, a few dozens of km when they start off, like this, in this thread:

SWST, where in the video you posted does it show ranges in the hundreds of km?
At what time index can we calculate this, because I've looked at the fight, and at most get 3, 4times the length of the SSD as range, which, if we assume it is 17km long (reasonalbe scaling), means at most 80 km away when the fighters engage each other, but we still don't see the Cap ships fire at each other at these ranges, and these ranges are still far less than DS9 combat ranges, or many other examples in ST,

So no, I don't believe I've said "hundreds of km" for SW range...

The books don’t have to be confirmed by the movies, they just can’t be contradicted.

AND WE'VE SHOWN YOU MANY TIMES IN SEVERAL DIFFERENT THREADS THAT THE BOOKS ARE INDEED CONTRADICTED BY THE MOVIES...

The average large scale battle in Star Trek range is 10 kilometers. You even said it yourself.

Yup, most, as in "not all", and I've also said that this range is greater than the large scale SW fleet engagements, and the long range battles in ST are greater than the long range examples in the movies and TCW...

Strange that the Federation hasn’t mapped out its own galaxy in however many centuries.

Yet they mapped out their territory, and the adjacent powers' territories, in a few centuries, while it took SW 25 000 years (it's whole existence) to map out a 10 000 LY Galasy...

Oh, and that wouldn’t apply to this too? After a huge fucking invasion of several hundred thousand Dominion ships and a giant battle, they’d still be scratching their heads?

Oh, they'd more than likely see them coming, except their ships could not damage them as ST ships have, and they would not be stopped as fast as the Feds stopped them, and most importantly, they wouldn't die of old age...

No, that works the other way. You have to prove that they can penetrate planetary shields.

Honestly, I would think they couldn't short of a full fleet bombardment, but then again, it doesn't matter, because not many planets in SW have planetary shields, so they'd still be able to take over a shitload of planets, some of them important, without problems...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

No, I said the ranges at Endor were, at most, a few dozens of km when they start off, like this, in this thread:

Then watch again.

Around http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ 2:00 here.

AND WE'VE SHOWN YOU MANY TIMES IN SEVERAL DIFFERENT THREADS THAT THE BOOKS ARE INDEED CONTRADICTED BY THE MOVIES...

This is what you said:

Nope, since you haven't proven anything...
Movies don't show hundreds of km engagements, and neither does the TCW, which are all above your novel examples... :)

Your argument was that the "movies don't show..." and that "neither does the TCW". Absence of proof is not proof of absence, especially when proof (albeit of lower canon) exists. I am not asking for absence of proof, I'm asking for proof of absence. You just claimed to have this, but didn't actually post any of it along with your post, exactly what you had warned me for doing earlier.

Showing that the ships don't engage at X range in battle Y is not proof of absence. Proof of absence would be if, say:

-A ship captain states that the enemy fleet is "almost within firing range" at a range less than what I claimed.

or

-A ship captain states that X fleet is too far away, and too far away is within the range I stated.

Yup, most, as in "not all",

And most as in the majority.

and I've also said that this range is greater than the large scale SW fleet engagements,

Those seen in the movies? Debatable, especially since all of the space battles we see in the movies are special circumstances (TPM: stated suicidal attack with puny fighters, AotC: no large ones, RotS: surprise attack and staged kidnapping, ANH: attack on moon sized battle station, ESB: no big ones, RotJ: attack on even bigger battle station).

and the long range battles in ST are greater than the long range examples in the movies and TCW...

in the movies and TCW is an unwarranted restriction. Lucasarts canon policy follows the "absence of proof is not proof of absence" doctrine, and until you can post the alleged proof that you have but hypocritically fail to post, EU showing of extreme SW ranges are completely valid, and many of them trump even the highest real space Star Trek combat ranges.

Yet they mapped out their territory, and the adjacent powers' territories, in a few centuries, while it took SW 25 000 years (it's whole existence) to map out a 10 000 LY Galasy...

How do you know it took 25,000 years to do so? Last time I checked, people were getting around to places just fine in KOTOR. And please, lay off with the 10,000 LY crap.

Oh, they'd more than likely see them coming, except their ships could not damage them as ST ships have,

Yes they could, both using my calcs (in which an ISD can take on the entire Federation starfleet at once) and by your own admission ISD's can take on certain ST ships head on.

But hey, as usual, this is completely irrelevant to the point, which was about knowing when and where the Dominion would strike.

and they would not be stopped as fast as the Feds stopped them,

No, by your own admission the Empire has superior FTL speeds and force projection.

and most importantly, they wouldn't die of old age...

That may be hyperbole, especially with Star Trek medicinal technology, but they sure aren't going to be fresh when they get wherever they're going. Which, mind you, is nowhere, because they're flying blindly in a galaxy where they don't know where jack shit is.

Honestly, I would think they couldn't short of a full fleet bombardment,

Not even in spite of that. The Executor and several ISD's could not penetrate a Rebel theater shield. A planetary shield for a planet like Coruscant? The Dominion Empire couldn't penetrate it with their entire fleet.

but then again, it doesn't matter, because not many planets in SW have planetary shields,

Most of the large ones (population or importance wise) do.

so they'd still be able to take over a shitload of planets,

No, they can't. The average SW planet has 50 billion citizens (100 quadrillion/a million). The crew on this hypothetical dominion fleet would be a few hundred million. You do the math.

This isn't even taking into account the amount of materiel a cooperating and mobilized Star Wars galaxy could produce in that time. It would be mind bogging, if the construction of the Death Star is any indication.

some of them important, without problems...

[/quote][/quote]

Without problems? Even though you yourself admitted that Star Trek ships and Star Wars ships are on rough parity, with winners depending on the ship class and other factors? Even though that conclusion you came to is assuming yields that are ridiculously low for Base Delta Zero calculations (not even low end interpretations; turning the planet's surface into "smoked debris in a matter of hours" (SW: Technical Journal) is impossible to do with kiloton level weaponry unless if your guns can fire several hundred million times a second.)

[Praeothmin]

Then watch again.

I did, many times, and the battle only starts between the fighters when the ships are at most at a few dozen km from one another...

Absence of proof is not proof of absence, especially when proof (albeit of lower canon) exists.

Oh, right, so the Rebels don't fire immediately in RotJ when they are at a few dozen km away from the Imperials because...
Oh right, no reason at all...

-A ship captain states that the enemy fleet is "almost within firing range" at a range less than what I claimed.

You mean like Han Solo saying the Tie fighter in ANH is out of range, when we visually see it is less than a few hundred meters in front of the MF?

In any case, TCW does mention many times range limits, usually well within the 10 km mark, like the battle over Ryloth, when the Republic forces fire at the Malevolance, etc...
All these examples are directly contradicting your lower canon examples...

And most as in the majority.

Which is better than none at all, as in SW...

Lucasarts canon policy follows the "absence of proof is not proof of absence" doctrine

And TCW does prove range limits below the 10km range, even in small scale engagements...

you have but hypocritically fail to post

I have posted many examples, but you hypocritically ignore them when they don't go your way... :)

How do you know it took 25,000 years to do so?

You are right, it could have taken them only 10 000 years for all we know...

And please, lay off with the 10,000 LY crap.

Prove it is crap...
Go in the Thread that deals with the SW Galaxy size, and prove me wrong, but do it with evidence this time...

Yes they could, both using my calcs (in which an ISD can take on the entire Federation starfleet at once) and by your own admission ISD's can take on certain ST ships head on.

You mean the calcs nnot backed up by the movies?
And the ships an ISD can take is also taken down, one on one, by the Dominion bugs, so no problems there...

But hey, as usual, this is completely irrelevant to the point, which was about knowing when and where the Dominion would strike.

Which you failed to prove that they would know...

No, by your own admission the Empire has superior FTL speeds and force projection.

Barely superior speeds, and in the op here, the Dominion were given 10 times their estimated DS9 ship numbers.
While I agree the regular Dominion fleet would not be able to invade the SW galaxy, this fleet is more than adequate, since each dominion bug is almost an ISD's equal, and the bigger Dominion ships would definitely cream many SDs...

Which, mind you, is nowhere, because they're flying blindly in a galaxy where they don't know where jack shit is.

With incredibly fast and precise FTL sensors, so they won't have too much problems finding inhabited worlds...
They wouldn't get to Coruscant right off the bat, of course, but they would definitely have no problems taking over the outlying worlds...

Not even in spite of that. The Executor and several ISD's could not penetrate a Rebel theater shield. A planetary shield for a planet like Coruscant? The Dominion Empire couldn't penetrate it with their entire fleet.

So?
I imagine that the fleet would be comprised of more than just 10 ships...
As for Coruscant, if the fleet all fires at the same shield coordinates, I'm pretty sure they could...

Most of the large ones (population or importance wise) do.

Prove it...

No, they can't. The average SW planet has 50 billion citizens (100 quadrillion/a million). The crew on this hypothetical dominion fleet would be a few hundred million. You do the math.

Before I waste my time, why don't you prove the bullshit numbers you provide?

Again, let me reiterate:
If we are talking the regular Dominion forces, around 30 000 ships, they could conquer a good portion of the SW Galaxy, but not all...
But with the 250 000 fleet provided in the OP?
No problem at all...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

I still don't see any evidence, P. Evidence of capital ship ranges does not include ranges for moving starfighters.


By the way, did you ever notice the star destroyer that was vaporized at the Battle of Endor by a single turbolaser shot? If we go by your claim that ISD's use nuclear fusion reactors, it could not have been an overloading reactor since fusion reactors don't go KABOOM! when they explode. Moreso, even if we were to assume than an ISD were no harder to vaporize than a nickel-iron asteroid, we can establish a lower limit of 30.7 gigatons for the turbolaser.

Or what about the asteroids vaporized relative to the Falcon in ESB? You can't question their size, because they're scaled next to the Falcon, and although Mr. O tried to claim that said asteroids don't exist and the glowing is just an "airburst", we know from RotJ that said detonations from turbolasers are green, not blue.

[Mike DiCenso]

By the way, did you ever notice the star destroyer that was vaporized at the Battle of Endor by a single turbolaser shot? If we go by your claim that ISD's use nuclear fusion reactors, it could not have been an overloading reactor since fusion reactors don't go KABOOM! when they explode. Moreso, even if we were to assume than an ISD were no harder to vaporize than a nickel-iron asteroid, we can establish a lower limit of 30.7 gigatons for the turbolaser.

Where do you get 30.7 gigatons from, even if we were to assume your interpretation of the event is the correct one? Hint: You have to show your work to be credible. On that point, yes a reactor will explode, even a fusion reactor, it just will not be on the same scale as a matter-antimatter one, nor will it have all the nasty side-effects, like a fission reactor meltdown. Other interpretations explain away what we see, especially since there are clearly multiple explosions going off inside the stricken ISD that one can assume there is ordinance exploding, ala what tended to happened to a lot of real-life dreadnought battleships in WW-I and WW-II, particularly British ships when their cordite supplies where hit.

Or what about the asteroids vaporized relative to the Falcon in ESB? You can't question their size, because they're scaled next to the Falcon, and although Mr. O tried to claim that said asteroids don't exist and the glowing is just an "airburst", we know from RotJ that said detonations from turbolasers are green, not blue.

That's illogical, and does not follow since there are different color turbolaser bolts being fired off in the battles in the two different eras. And if the color of the flak bursts is different, you need to show that is indeed the case with links to appropriate screencaps and or to video.

In this video here as early as 0:45 into the chase scenes that the flak bursts outside the window are orange-red, not blue, and this is well before the Falcon enters the asteroid field. Also note at 2:55 that the TIE bolt striking the rock outcrop on the big asteroid does not shatter, never mind cause vaporization. Just some neat little sparkles. So much for those kiloton weapons. In this video here at 7:40 there are three asteroids visible that the two ships pass by, but none are hit, just more flak bursts. At 7:46 Threepio exclaims his relief that they are coming out of the asteroid field, and the visuals show a distinct thinning and then disappearance of all asteroids, and the rest of the video shows no asteroids hit. But not a single asteroid to be found... anywhere. I challenge you SWST to find those alleged asteroids and point out their existence before the TL bolts hit them.
-Mike

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Mike's asteroid calculator, of course. An ISD is 1600 meters long.

So you're claiming that there were these blue turbolasers used just that one time, in that one scene that were mysteriously never seen or mentioned again?

So, if you see the shape of an asteroid blowing bright blue, what else could it be? Flak bursts from turbolasers aren't blue, unless if some never mentioned blue turbolasers exist.

[Mike DiCenso]

Mike's asteroid calculator, of course. An ISD is 1600 meters long.

You do realize that an ISD is a fairly flat triangle, not a perfect sphere, don't you? The volumetrics are totally different, and you high-balled the numbers as a result by a ridiculously huge amount.

Furthermore you made another critical error: an ISD is mostly hollow, not solid through and through. The energy for vaporization requirements for an entire ISD's structure will be orders of magnitude below what you claim.

Thus we know fairly well that an ISD has a volume of 69,534,240 m^3. Being generous and giving the ISD Star Trek ship-like densities of 4.3 metric tons per cubic meter, we would get a maximum of 298,997,232 tons (2.7e11 kg) for the whole ship. Realistically, I don't see how you can get more than a few gigatons out of this. Assuming the ship were made of iron you would get 2.7e11 kg x 7.6 megajoules = 2,272,378,963,200 MJ or 543 megatons to vaporize the whole ship. Being further insanely generous, we'd also need to assume that the energy output of the TL shot was ten times or so more powerful than that needed to do the job, and about 5 gigatons is the result. Still about 6 times too low compared to your numbers.

So you're claiming that there were these blue turbolasers used just that one time, in that one scene that were mysteriously never seen or mentioned again?

Huh? What exactly are you saying. I'm referring to the blue turbolaser bolts like those fired from the heavy gun batteries of the Venator at 0:57-1:01 as seen in this YouTube copy of the Battle of Coruscant. Also note the flak bursts going off between the ships just immediately after Obi-Wan and Anakin's starfighters flyby the Venator. They look almost exactly like those seen in ANH, TESB, and ROTJ, except that they are a bit more incandescent and in the close up shots have WW-II-like puffs of smoke.

So, if you see the shape of an asteroid blowing bright blue, what else could it be? Flak bursts from turbolasers aren't blue, unless if some never mentioned blue turbolasers exist.

What? What are you talking about here? There is no such thing and you have failed to meet my challenge to you about finding the asteroids hit in TESB's Falcon-Avenger chase scene. The only blue glowing asteroids we see there are the ones that collide early in the TIE-Falcon chase scene and burn with blue fire immediately afterwords.
-Mike

[Picard]

For SW (or at least in Endor): hundreds of kilometers

Range at Ednor was 100 km tops, and that is being extremely generous.

http://picard578.6te.net/startrek-vs-st ... asers.html

Effective range of Hoth ion cannon, however, allows us to bump it up to 6 000 kilometers.

[Mike DiCenso]

I think what Picard meant to say is that if something in VOY or ST:ENT contradicts TNG, it isn't canon. But there is nothing to indicate a hierarchy of canon in Star Trek. Plus if I were Picard, I would not be so quick to dismiss parts of VOY or ST:ENT since we get some pretty big power generation, firepower, and shield dissipation numbers out of them.
-Mike

[Picard]

But we have to have some hierarchy within Star Trek canon; and only statement I have found about that is Rodenberry's statement that TNG overrides everything. Otherwise, it's simply a Gordian knot of confusion, and we'll have no sword to cut it with.

As for crazy power generation... it is possible to find it in every Star Trek series to date. I have largerly ignored high-end feats in Star Trek when writing my site beacouse I thought these too few and far between to override other examples which showed far lower firepower and power generation ("Pegasus" in single to double digit gigatons, "Skin of Evil" - 500 megaton torpedo, etc.). but also beacouse it allowed for quite nice explanation for starships apparently being able to travel for long time without refueling (also, hand phasers are able to scorch duranium, althought they are unable to do much - or anything - to tritanium, if Arsenal of Freedom is to be believed. That again can suggest far higher yields than single-digit gigatons for BoP guns. Gulp.).

However, there is material for it. If you read this page you will see that I also adressed possibility of UDD being used. It easily allows for 5 x 10e24 W of power generation. However, in that case ship has enough fuel for only 32 440 seconds of operation, in best case - that is about 9 hours. Unless I have mistaken somewhere, it is far too short.

EDIT:
Just noticed this:

So for ST: dozens of kilometers to spitting
For SW (or at least in Endor): hundreds of kilometers to hundreds of meters (or maybe spitting; I don't want to argue the point)

For ST: hundred meters to two hundred thousand kilometers
For SW: hundred meters to six thousand kilometers