a thermopylae type scenario in star wars

[Admiral Breetai]

Basically 275,000 Dominion vessels are about to poor through a wormhole into Imperial space. The Rebellion is currently in hiding and sidious is focusing on this threat and throwing everything behind it.

300 SSD (given by Q) are dispatched along with 1700 ISD's and another 3,000 support craft and several orbital stations. they set up outside the wormhole. a habitable planet

The Terrain; entrance to the wormhole is blocked off by a nebula that spans seventy light years in every direction treacherous and full of asteroids...warp drive is disabled except for small 'narrow" routes a main one that leads directly to the wormhole and others that are hidden.

sidious is trying to frantically finish construction of the DSII and get his shipyards ready to handle what's coming

can they hold them off? if they fail what happens to the GFFA?

[Mike DiCenso]

What's the composition of the Dominion fleet?
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

What's the composition of the Dominion fleet?
-Mike

80% bugs the rest of comprised of their capital ships with about 1,100 of their massive EOS cruisers spread out over the fleet

[sonofccn]

How big is the wormhole? Or how many ships can fit through it at any one time?

Off the cuff however I think even with mostly battle bugs the Dominion is going to rip through Imperial lines. Imperial ships simply don't have enough firepower, fire control, manuverbility etc to really compete against this onslaught. In equal numbers sure thier layers of armor and sheer volume of fire can whittle down the opposition to be a threat but in this scenario there's simply too many. By the time you've half blasted through one warship a dozen more will have come and replaced it.

As to the Galaxy at large even assuming only battlebugs survive and only seventy-five thousand of them at that which is an overly optimistic assumption for the Imperials it would still outnumber the Empire's Star Destroyer fleet, the crux of their power, three to one. Bugs may not be as strong as their cruisers but they can still take some damage and dish it out and I'm far from sure the Imperials could win this exchange much less the more likely outcome.

[Picard]

Imperials loose... unless "orbital stations" in question are Death Stars. Then I don't know...

[Praeothmin]

Imperials loose... unless "orbital stations" in question are Death Stars. Then I don't know...

Then Imperials win... :)

[Picard]

Well, unless Dominion figures out that they should get shuttles with micro-photons, probably. On the other hand, if Darkstar's estimate is correct, then superlaser has less DET yield than a photon torpedo.

EDIT:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 178#p35178

[Admiral Breetai]

How big is the wormhole? Or how many ships can fit through it at any one time?

let's say 24 ships can exit at a time...

Off the cuff however I think even with mostly battle bugs the Dominion is going to rip through Imperial lines. Imperial ships simply don't have enough firepower, fire control, manuverbility etc to really compete against this onslaught. In equal numbers sure thier layers of armor and sheer volume of fire can whittle down the opposition to be a threat but in this scenario there's simply too many. By the time you've half blasted through one warship a dozen more will have come and replaced it.

I was thinking the lack of speed would be an issue but the armor and all that should help

As to the Galaxy at large even assuming only battlebugs survive and only seventy-five thousand of them at that which is an overly optimistic assumption for the Imperials it would still outnumber the Empire's Star Destroyer fleet, the crux of their power, three to one. Bugs may not be as strong as their cruisers but they can still take some damage and dish it out and I'm far from sure the Imperials could win this exchange much less the more likely outcome.

they lack FTL their researching slipstream but wont have it for years this merely to get a foothold on the galaxy before refitting and rushing

[sonofccn]

let's say 24 ships can exit at a time...

Ah I was thinking it would be more of course during DS9 I was of the ilk to merely gape and awe at the warships streaming out rather than actually count them so that's probely where I got my overestimation.

I was thinking the lack of speed would be an issue but the armor and all that should help

But unfortantly their shields and armor when coupled with their other deficiencies gives them at best rough parity with the Dominon forces. I don't think they can kill the warships faster than they can arrive and once the Dominon has equal numbers across its all over.

they lack FTL their researching slipstream but wont have it for years this merely to get a foothold on the galaxy before refitting and rushing

Have they done any mapping? Warp isn't too bad if you have good star charts. Even with a FTL speed advantage the Empire would be hard pressed to counter this invasion, Palpy will have to throw many star destroyers and lesser vessels into the hungry maw to deal with the Dominion growing like a cancer from the wormhole and buy off or otherwise "befriend" the Rebellion.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Basically 275,000 Dominion vessels are about to poor through a wormhole into Imperial space. The Rebellion is currently in hiding and sidious is focusing on this threat and throwing everything behind it.

Since when have the Dominion ever had that number of vessels?

300 SSD (given by Q) are dispatched along with 1700 ISD's and another 3,000 support craft and several orbital stations. they set up outside the wormhole. a habitable planet

Which SSD's? And what calc's are we using?

The Terrain; entrance to the wormhole is blocked off by a nebula that spans seventy light years in every direction treacherous and full of asteroids...warp drive is disabled except for small 'narrow" routes a main one that leads directly to the wormhole and others that are hidden.

sidious is trying to frantically finish construction of the DSII and get his shipyards ready to handle what's coming

can they hold them off?

As always, the Dominion think that the "Thermopylae" scenario is literal. Instead of fighting like a space age high technology navy should fight, they fight, like shown in the Dominion war, by charging into the fray using outdated "battle lines" and ramming, only firing at point blank range even if they probably do have 100,000+ km ranges.

The imperial forces do a microjumps behind the dominion forces to completely trap them in a pincer movement. Meanwhile, they capture a single dominion vessel, learn the whereabouts of the dominion capital and send a few SSD's there to BDZ it (whatever version is fine).

if they fail what happens to the GFFA?

The dominion fleets try and find the SW planets, but most of the crew dies of old age, others run out of warp fuel and get lost, and others find shielded planets where they can just wait outside before getting destroyed by the million-Death-Star fleet that whatever civilization would be in command by then could have built, or simply by starvation.

[Admiral Breetai]

Since when have the Dominion ever had that number of vessels?

since three of their shipyards was shown able to fleet spam and keep up with an enemy that after years of fighting still had a navy numbering in the tens of thousands..since a few industrial replicators can convert worlds strip mined and devastated into major regional powers

Which SSD's? And what calc's are we using?

obviously the only SSD we saw in canon..not the nonsense from that fanfiction as for calcs none from any material not directly shown in the films.

As always, the Dominion think that the "Thermopylae" scenario is literal. Instead of fighting like a space age high technology navy should fight, they fight, like shown in the Dominion war, by charging into the fray using outdated "battle lines" and ramming, only firing at point blank range even if they probably do have 100,000+ km ranges.

i like how this is exactly the way they fight in star wars

The imperial forces do a microjumps behind the dominion forces to completely trap them in a pincer movement.

never happened in the films

Meanwhile, they capture a single dominion vessel, learn the whereabouts of the dominion capital and send a few SSD's there to BDZ it (whatever version is fine).

Dominion territory bdz? BAHAHAHAHA oh lord..that's cute

[Praeothmin]

like shown in the Dominion war, by charging into the fray using outdated "battle lines" and ramming, only firing at point blank range even if they probably do have 100,000+ km ranges.

Which will make the Imperials feel right at home, as they fight the exact same way (RotJ, RotS, TCW)...

The imperial forces do a microjumps behind the dominion forces to completely trap them in a pincer movement.

Evidence, please...

The dominion fleets try and find the SW planets, but most of the crew dies of old age, others run out of warp fuel and get lost,

The Dominion did not get lost in the Federation, which is, at 8 000 LY across, almost as big as the SW Galaxy, at 10 000 LY across (discussed in the SW Galaxy size thread)...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Which will make the Imperials feel right at home, as they fight the exact same way (RotJ, RotS, TCW)...

Justified in RotS (it was a planetary invasion/infiltration relying on the element of surprise), completely averted in RotJ (Ackbar states that the tactics used are extremely dangerous and have never been used before; those "point blank ranges" were roughly equivalent to the ranges used by Sisko without anyone batting an eyelid) and common in TCW, which is secondary to RotJ.

If there's one thing that the EU heavily supports, it's that typical SW combat ranges are in the hundreds of kilometers, far beyond typical Star Trek combat ranges, which are in the dozens of kilometers (200,000+ km ranges are only present in one on one duels, and only occasionally when the combatants have a burst of intelligence).

In NJO Rebel Stand (or was it Rebel dream? one of them), YV starfighters were firing from beyond visual range; and in space, BVR is superbly long. Capital ships were mentioned to have formations hundreds of kilometers from one another in Star by Star, and starfighters would fly in formations one kilometer apart from eachother in various novels such as FOTJ: Vortex. In Star Wars: Death Star, a group of tie fighters were "only" 600 klicks away.

Compare this to the typical large scale Trek battle, in which the combat ranges average around 10 kilometers, and the range concern is completely justified.

Evidence, please...

Microjumps are well established in canon (and your side commonly cites it to avoid admitting high SW sublight speeds), and the OP specifies nebulas to the left and right of the battle, not in between.

The Dominion did not get lost in the Federation, which is, at 8 000 LY across, almost as big as the SW Galaxy, at 10 000 LY across (discussed in the SW Galaxy size thread)...

False, and even if it were true, the Dominion would not know the whereabouts of Star Wars planets. They'd still get lost, they'd still die of old age (the Dominion did not penetrate into the far reaches of the Federation) and they'd still have no means of penetrating planetary or theater shields. They'd have no planets of their own either, and no means to refuel.

[Praeothmin]

averted in RotJ (Ackbar states that the tactics used are extremely dangerous and have never been used before; those "point blank ranges" were roughly equivalent to the ranges used by Sisko without anyone batting an eyelid)

Nope, as point blank range was within spitting distance of each other, while the first time they engage, they're at most at a few dozen km (discussed before, you still haven't proven otherwise)...

common in TCW, which is secondary to RotJ.

But still supercedes any of the novels you like, including works like the ICS... :)

If there's one thing that the EU heavily supports, it's that typical SW combat ranges are in the hundreds of kilometers, far beyond typical Star Trek combat ranges,

Quotes would be nice...

Compare this to the typical large scale Trek battle, in which the combat ranges average around 10 kilometers, and the range concern is completely justified.

Nope, that's one battle, you haven't proven it's the average, and you've ignored the battles of Chin'toka and SoA's first shots, or even when DS9 fights off the Klingons or Cardassians, it fires at ships many km away...

Microjumps are well established in canon

Where and when?

False, and even if it were true, the Dominion would not know the whereabouts of Star Wars planets. They'd still get lost, they'd still die of old age (the Dominion did not penetrate into the far reaches of the Federation) and they'd still have no means of penetrating planetary or theater shields. They'd have no planets of their own either, and no means to refuel.

Can you support at least one of those claims with anything but bullshit?

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Nope, as point blank range was within spitting distance of each other, while the first time they engage, they're at most at a few dozen km (discussed before, you still haven't proven otherwise)...

That's the point. "At most" is a few dozen kilometers, and they move into spitting distance. The Battle of Endor started out at hundreds (or thousands, but I won't argue the point) and moved to a few hundred meters (hardly "spitting").

So for ST: dozens of kilometers to spitting
For SW (or at least in Endor): hundreds of kilometers to hundreds of meters (or maybe spitting; I don't want to argue the point)

But still supercedes any of the novels you like, including works like the ICS... :)

Which is superceded by the films, and they contradict The Clone Wars. Therefore, you evidence is rendered invalid, whereas mine are completely fine (the films don't establish maximum ranges).

Quotes would be nice...

"The three shuttles were staying at least a kilometer apart" - Vortex

"Vil's own TIE vibrated as he leaned into the sharp turn, port and "up", accelerating hard to avoid the robotic target drones grouped in a tight formation only hundred klicks ahead of him." - Star Wars Death Star

"We faked up a low-power demonstration of this positioning one of our capital ships outside the Coruscant system and firing off a laser battery attack at that worldship to coincide with the firing of our fake weapon array." - Rebel Dream

Nope, that's one battle, you haven't proven it's the average, and you've ignored the battles of Chin'toka and SoA's first shots, or even when DS9 fights off the Klingons or Cardassians, it fires at ships many km away...

Doomsday machine, Borg battles (Perhaps the most prominent examples given the huge size of the cubes), Star Trek 2009, ST: Nemesis...I'd invite you to show me exceptions.

Where and when?

In that they're explicitly stated in multiple sources, and actually used for very similar purposes as I suggested in this thread? Like in Millennium Falcon, where part of a plan in a flashback was to microjump through an asteroid field to launch a baradium fission device; stated to be a planet buster that was lethal even at 500,000 km out, at an imperial shipyard?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Micro-jump

Can you support at least one of those claims with anything but bullshit?

You want me to prove that the Dominion don't know where the Star Wars planets are? Are you postulating that they magically know so? Or that they have a magical planetary shield penetrator somewhere?