So, so now you are shifting topics to Wars hyperdrive speed.sonofccn wrote:No. As I said previously:
from here again to you five minutes is the absolute minimum and assumes Palpy rounded up everyone for an emergency session and Jar-Jar gave a crowd pleasing speech in five minutes.It doesn't work that way. Halfway across the galaxy has not quantified values, it be anything since we don't know the size of the galaxy at G-level. Conversely Padme gives us a very specific distance, less than a parsec, and we have a rough timeline. Here starting at 1:26:24 they zip into the sky and at 1:31:32 they arrive in system for a bare bones, absolute minimum of five minutes and this involves Palpy using forces powers to teleport thousands of senators into the senate who in turn are bowled over by thirty seconds of Jar-Jar gibberish.
See, your calculation assumes that no time passed in which Padme and Anakin were preparing to leave, or when they plotted a course, or when they actually landed on Geonosis (if I am thinking about the same scene that you are). I could go on and on; your calculation just makes too many assumptions. Now, if this were the only quantifiable hyperdrive feat in canon, we could work with what we have, but it's not.
Aside from wanting to cherry pick the lowest possible canon hyperdrive speed, there is no impartial reason to derive speeds from that scene instead of, say, Maul traveling from Coruscant to Geonosis, a feat that is far more concrete, that we can establish far more reliable lower and upper limits to the feat without needing to guesstimate.
Mind you, the size of the SW galaxy is inexplicably in dispute (even though the Essential Atlas blatantly mentions it to be 120,000 LY as I recall; a "modest sized galaxy" is far too ambiguous to prove or to disprove anything), yet even the smallest reasonable estimates for a "modest sized" spiral galaxy lead to numbers exceeding one million C.
Do I realize certain sects of Warsies try to claim every cut between scenes of action is a literal transition of time without skips to try and argue that the ships gracefully posing for the camera are actually super fast? [/quote]
Clearly you haven't actually analyzed any of these scenes yourself in detail, and just assumed that they were all ridiculous calculations made by Warsies, and that they completely disregarded potential scene cuts.
For one, there is Dooku's sail ship going from ground to past Geonosis's rings within the time it takes for Yoda to pick up his cane, and for Padme to rush inside to aid her severely injured friends. Implied acceleration here: 20,000 G.
There is also the Rebel X wing squadron circumnavigating Yavin IV to reach the Death Star in minutes. Well, actually, it's less than minutes; in one shot, we see them moving from around halfway across the gas giant to passing it in about six scenes.
Additionally, when we first encounter the Death Star, it goes from being invisible to taking up most of the Falcon's viewport in a matter of around a minute, if I recall. There are scene cuts; however, most of these are mid conversation, and always go back to the characters sitting in the same spot, sometimes even with the same facial expressions. Ergo, no significant timeskips are possible.
There are dozens more; and even some scary ones in the EU, such as moving an astronomical unit within minutes in KOTOR.
I'm holding you to the bolded text.Yes. But that doesn't have anything to do with my argument, going with the absolute highest number for FTL for the G-canon example as possible, so I fail to see any merit.
The following events occur in TPM:
1. Darth Maul is ordered to go to Tatooine to hunt down Obi Wan and Qui Gon.
2. There is a sandstorm, and the two Jedi are invited by Anakin to stay. At lunch, he tells them of the pod-racing tournament being held the next morning.
3. At dawn [or dusk?], before the tournament, Darth Maul's ship has already landed, and he is seen dispatching probe droids and posing to look badass.
So in the course of around half a day, Darth Maul travels "halfway across the galaxy" (Padme). If we use the explicitly stated, canonical 120,000 light year statement from the Essential Atlas in regards to the length of the SW galaxy, then Darth Maul's ship had speeds of around 43 million C.
Even if the galaxy were only 20,000 light years in length, Darth Maul's ship still had speeds of around 7 million C.
Um, I was actually taking about the Trek slipstream calculation.So you are arguing more time elapsed which slows down the figure?
It would help to actually consider the math before you make statements like this. In order for that to be the case, the galaxy would have had to have been only around 100 light years in length. This is not "modest sized"; this is "could collapse into a black hole at any time".No. It simply means the Galaxy is small enough to cross in a day at 100,000c. Again going by the highest canon.
I don't see where in the OP you are given all technology on a whim. You have access to them, and the veil of CIS is lifted so that you can actually use them; this does not equate to magically having them installed on all of your ships.<snip disagreements over the OP>
Context. It was a reference to an earlier claim by Trinoya, in a separate thread. It's ok.Okay? Its the trilithium resin which caused the fifty years of scorched earth which is all I care about. Oh and its trilithium. Copy and past it if you can't spell.
You still haven't showed me where it is implied that planetary shields are monumentally difficult to construct, so much that a civilization that can build Death Stars cannot mass produce them.<snip logistics/see above> And as for shields on the few worlds which have planatary shields that might become an issue.
Do the math then. Don't just vaguely exclaim that the rate is decreasing "at a rapid rate", and expect this to be sufficient.because the time to do it is decreasing at a rapid rate? Because slipstream is a leap forward in propulsion technology? And of course you ignored everything else just to try and focus on star charting.
A spy network? Explain to me, please, how this would work. For starters, how would they install spies in planets or on fleets before they locate them?Again I have stated magic is not involved nor have you actually replied to my statement on how I plan to obtain maps of the planets.
Because you say so?Which amounts to little
But your Trek orbital defenses can intercept a ship dropping out of hyperspace, launching nuclear missiles and then jumping back because you say so, right?and is unlikely to be able to intercept a ship which just drops out of slipstream launches a missile and jumps back to FTL.
Except that I have such a massive fleet that I can do both at the same time, unlike you. Or just deploy defense systems such a golans that are designed specifically to defend planets anyway, and don't move with invasion fleets.Not to mention diverting your forces to guard all of your worlds is what I want you to do.
And when is it ever implied that it takes a significant amount of time to raise a planetary shield?Few planets it appears have a planetary shield. And it is debateable if it could be raised in time or not to prevent the attack regardless.
So what? The Rebels were effectively nomads by ESB; Hoth was a temporary, makeshift base that they set up on a whim. Did Echo Base look like a well supplied defense fortress now? With the Galactic Alliance, I have infinitely more resources.Hoth was an important rebel base
Yes, but the ratio in resource-strain would be smaller than the ratio between the resources of the Alliance and the resources of the Galactic Alliance.and a theater shield is a far cry from a planatary shield.
Yes it does, according to the EU. Given that the entire attack was an inside job by the supreme chancellor himself, sabotaging the shield would be ridiculously easy.Coruscant does not have a planatary shield as of ROTS.
But wait...this is irrelevant, since the Galactic Alliance's Coruscant certainly possesses a shield, as shown in Star by Star.
Irrelevant. It has a shield as of TFUII novel.Kamino does not have a plantary shield as of Arc Troopers season 3 of the Clone Wars.
Given that Mustafar was never invaded, I fail to see how this proves or disproofs anything. Vader was welcomed by the Seperatists; ergo, they would have lowered the shields for him. Obi Wan and Padme arrived after the seperatists were all slaughtered. There is nothing here.Naboo I don't have data on however per ROTS novel:
Is a very fortified place and there is naught mention or implication of a planatary shield in either the movie or the novel. So I highly doubt Naboo realy has plantary shields. I also doubt my forces will run into them in any signifigant number.page 178" wrote:""Utapau," Grievous said slowly, as though explaining to a child, "is a hostile planet under military occupation. It was never intended to be more than a stopgap, while the defenses of the base on Mustafar were completed. Now that they are, Mustafar is the most secure planet in the galaxy. The stronghold prepared for you can withstand the entire Republic Navy."
"It should," Gunray muttered. "Construction nearly bankrupted the Trade Federation! [...]
"The base is secure. It can stand against a thousand Jedi. Ten thousand.
Excellent circular reasoning. The obvious response to requesting proof that planetary shields are extremely expensive...is saying that they are a "massive undertaking"!The fact your suggesting building heavily specilied systems, mulitple per planet, to combat a piece of stock issued torpedo with industrail waste strapped to it. The fact that your suggesting a massive undertaking of retrofitting a million worlds on the fly.
First, this works both ways.You have to detect the ship, determin it is a threat and raise shields. My ship just has to drop out and fire. If I fail I'm out a torpedo. If you fail you out a planet. I can live with those odds.
Second, it will not take much time to "determin it is a threat". I program the shield generator to activate the nanosecond a warp signature is detected.
Wrong. Read the acceleration thread; they are described as flying out from behind Ender.Or they hyperjump. We don't see the scene in question through I'm not sure where your getting the time table from. We simply know the fleet ending up in position to trap the rebel fleet between the Death Star.
No, it was in a comic book.Where? I don't remember many ISDs ramming the Executor in ROTJ or TESB,
Mind you, before going into hyperspace, every ship visibly accelerates to relativistic speeds; and then decelerates within a millisecond after dropping out. The energy needed to accomplish this is astronomical.
...this again? The novel clearly described the asteroid hitting its hull. Ergo, its shields were down.but I do remember that asteriod owning one of those vaunted ISDs and it wasn't doing fractions of high c.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsNv6c6chBAAnd this is baded off of?
The Falcon rapidly accelerates right before moving to lightspeed; then, it rapidly decelerates right after. Somebody calc'd this a while back, although I cannot locate the source at this moment.
Quote please?
Unfortunately, I cannot locate the full context to prove my hyperspace point. However, there is this:
And this:Dozens of refugee ships were already lumbering up from Talfaglio, in their haste to escape willing to brave even the heart of the fighting. Still moving at a substantial percentage of lightspeed, the Sabers flashed past a trio of Dozen X-wings.
And this from Shadows of Mindor:Then Danni remembered the block - the block the Yuuzhan Vong could not have seen when they grabbed the glowball - the two tons of durasteel accelerated to no small percentage of lightspeed.
Even with all these advantages, the overwhelming odds took their toll.
Some X-wings were lost to friendly fire, as they were traveling too fast for
the Slash-E gunners-or even their own superb reflexes-to react as they
swept through the quad turrets' fields of fire. Some were lost to simple
collisions, flying at near-relativistic speeds through very, very crowded
space. Almost half of the Twenty-third's Green Squadron was taken out by
a mass of asteroids that didn't co-here into a planetoid as quickly as the
navicomps had predicted.
It was KO'd by the concentrated firepower of the entire Rebel fleet. I fail to see how this proves anything. Have you done the math to discount my point?Not judging by ROTJ where it got KO'ed by the Rebel fleet, noticably less than a hundred ships, I'd rather take a couple dozen ISDs if I had the choice.
Or the planetary shield is simply far larger; and the surface area of the shield will increase by a lower exponent than the volume of the reactor. Hence why the Executor's shields are stronger than that of a standard ISD, and yet are significantly weaker even than a theater shield.Which would only make the planetary shield weaker if you keep the same number of power sources. If there are additional, which I believe is the case since War Planetary shields are essentially theather shields linked togather, than speaking of size is immaterial.
Wait...am I getting this right?One being secret and on the outer rim means nothing. It has zero bearing to how much of the Empire was focused on building the white elephants. Two has anyone demostrated building fully fuctional pint sized deathstars? Three That is still six months.
Are you arguing that there is absolutely no strain in having to construct a project in secret? That there is no strain in having to construct a project in an obscure location, away from your industrial base?
Do you...have any idea what you're talking about?
Irrelevant. I explained this to you.Just pointing out G-canon 20 years to complete DSI.
Really, I don't mean anything personal here, but hearing you say this is certainly facepalm worthy. Thinking that building a project in the outer rim is no more difficult than building in in your industrial base...BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!No years. Building it at Coruscant or at Endor changes nothing
Because the Emperor wanted them to. You clearly have not watched RotJ in a long time.Yes I do. However the Death Star II was found by the rebels in ROTJ
The first Death Star was not nearly as secretive by the events of the Death Star novel, as its existence was known by the galaxy's bartenders and smugglers. The fact that the Rebels learned of its location after a spy network built up over many years means nothing.and in the Death Star novel the DSI is assaulted by a rebel ship.
WTF is this? "for all intents and purposes nonexistent"?and Plenetary shields are for all intents and purposes nonexistent.
You...don't know what you're talking about again, do you?Actually its armor and shielding is quite atrocious with snubfighters able to penertrate its shields
The first Death Star had gaps in its shields that could be penetrated by starfighters, yes. But the second Death Star eliminated this flaw.
EGW, p 154
Lemelisk eliminated the small gaps in the shields that had allowed starfighters to penetrate the first Death Star's defences ...
Wait...are you being serious here?and damage its outer hull,shaking crewmembers inside, it is quite defeatable by a Federation style fleet.
The first Death Star's rudimentary shielding tanked mountain fragments impacting its deflector shields at hypersonic velocities without suffering any damage. It also would have had to have a hull made out of material 300,000 times the strength of structural steel just be have been able to accelerate at one kilometer per sec^2.
Even if the Federation could dent its shields and its armor, the battle station is so impossibly massive that you might as well try to destroy the moon with photon torpedos.
Nah, the latter. And you haven't considered the math. Given hyperdrive speeds of 50 million C, I can reach your planets within hours, and given WEG stats giving me 2 million heavy destroyers, I can drown your systems in numbers.My planets in the Unknown Region or my planets in the Federation proper? One of those will be hard to hit, the other nearly impossible in any considerate time or with useful strenght.
Wait...you do realize that this is in complete odds with your idea that the Death Star severely strained the imperial economy, do you?No you didn't. No where have you addressed the DSI only taking up the resources for a score of Sector Groups, about 480 Star Destroyers and tens of thousands of lesser ships plus the ground forces. A drop in the bucket, even assuming you could maintain that annually it doesn't amount to anywhere near what you talk about.
This isn't a matter of canon, it's a matter of simple mathematics and construction concepts. The Death Star is billions of times larger than a star destroyer; by extension, it is far, far, far more resource extensive. But please, explain to me your rationale as to how the Death Star could only require the resources of a few hundred star destroyers, and present your math as to how this is even remotely conceivable.Every shred of evidence suggests ships do no collorate with the DS.
Wait...It is more along the lines of building a hundred frigates or one DS. Apparently Economies of scale really love Death Stars.
You think that building a hundred frigates is just as difficult as building a DS that outmasses said frigates by nine orders of magnitude?
...and then you argue that the Death Star was a significant focus of the imperial budget, and that it strained the economy greatly, even though it only amounted to "a hundred frigates". Really, this is just brilliant.
Incorrect. Each sector group also possessed 2400 capital battle-ships and, as you say, 1600 support ships. So we have here 2.4 million warships and 1.6 million support ships, just in the sector groups alone, massively outnumbering your starfleet.That was a fan calcuation as I informed you. The WEG ISB lists 24 Star Destroyers and 1600 other combat ships per Sector Group and that there are thousands of Sector Groups. And that is the Entire naval force of the Empire as described in the ISB which is the only canon source I know of which deals with the Imperial Navy on such matters.
What is more, you are assuming that the sector groups comprise of the totality of the imperial starfleet. However, in addition to the presence of various uniquely named fleets that are clearly not a part of any sector group, the Empire canonically possessed trillions of naval crew members, implying a presence of many billions of ships, although most of these were likely smaller traffic control vessels. The number "billions" may prompt a knee jerk reaction of incredulity; however, the presence of the Death Star, and the logistics of controlling one million systems, actually make this figure reasonably low end.
Additionally, we have Star Wars Slave Ship's instance of a transport fleet carrying away a planet's world-encircling oceans. Meaning that this single transport fleet [albeit large] already has a volume greater than the entire Federation starfleet!
Anything particular I"m looking for?[/quote]
It might not be there, actually:
The vagabond is around the size of an imperial star destroyer.When Luke closed his eyes and began breathing in deep, slow waves, Eckels noted it without comment. But he was not wholly surprised when, a short time later, the vagabond disappeared completely from view.
"You have been practicing," Eckels said, clapping Luke's shoulder approvingly. "I confess I want to stay and document it almost especially the day when the Qella begin to emerge. But this is best, to leave them alone. Tell me, what will you have done least?" "I don't know how long it will last," Luke said, gazing down on the planet. "Maybe not long at all. The forces affecting the ship are complex, and my teacher said that my touch is still too heavy. I had to try, though- try to draw the curtain and give them back their privacy, give them some time to heal, to build."
....Since Starfleet is not incompetent
...
...
.......
Explain to me, then, why Picard sends himself over to the enemy ship in Nemesis, instead of taking a team of men with him, and why the enemy crew is so incompetent that he single handedly takes out the entire ship.
Your assumption, with jack evidence.I have explained I'll handle them by virtue of them not existing in aprecitable numbers. That to undertake the effort to build them over a multitude of planets is more likely to drain away precious resources then accomplish anything productive.
Incorrect. You contradict yourself by claiming that a Death Star only amounts to a hundred or so frigates, a "drop in the bucket" by your own words.Such a device won't exist for any aprectiable amount of time.
Except that Luke and Leia scout out spaces without hyperlanes in Dark Empire, and once again you are making a complete and utter assumption without the slightest bit of evidence.Well for starters Hyperdrives is useless without charted hyperlanes
You are under the impression that hyperlanes being of extreme importance magically means that without them, hyperdrives are suddenly "useless".
Who cares if they are ten times slower without hyperlanes? They will still get there within days; not enough time for you to do anything.so an invasion of the Federation proper is almost impossible.
Impossible.Second my entire plan is to infflict such destruction, so fast and across such a breadth you will be hard pressed to marshal and deploy such formations for any duty.
1. Your mass blitzkrieg would be slower than mine, because you have less ships than I do, and you have more planets to target, and at least all of my important planets have shields, and you have presented no evidence suggesting that slipstream is as fast as hyperdrive.
2. Your plan will only be potentially effective against unshielded worlds. Worlds such as Fondor and Coruscant are shielded, and these are my main economic and industrial bases anyhow.
3. Your plan does no harm to my shipyards or my standing fleet and army.
How do you put a civilization larger than you, with a more massive fleet than you, and with significantly faster ships than you on the "defensive"?But obviously as Subcommander Tyler highlighted the plan does hinge on the Imperial Starfleets being tied down on defense.
Except that the enormous speed of hyperdrive means that your starfleet is the one that will be stretched thin. And even "stretched thin", the mathematics of the Death Star mean that I can still produce more tonnage than the Alpha Quadrant combined, using 1% of my annual budget. Making a ridiculous assertion that the Death Star magically equals 100 frigates, when all common sense, math and engineering laughs in this idea's face, doesn't help your point in the slightest.Your kidding. By evading it and stretching it thin across its own territory perhaps?
Your response betrays a negligence of basic economic principles; the same industry that produced the Death Star also produces ships and weapons. You cannot magically separate the two of them, as though this were C&C and we have separate construction queues. ISD's take time, manpower, steel and power; so does the Death Star, on a larger scale.I didn't handwave I presented clear evidence, multple times across the times we've debated, on why the Death Stars don't work with the rest of the fleet. And if you have other examples you are free to provide them.
Your insistence (based on a vague interpretation of a C canon source) is the equivalent of arguing that a race capable of building a dyson sphere cannot build one million Empire state buildings, because there is a magical barrier between the two industrial feats.
That's...not what I meant at all. In war, the side with the larger industry and economy gradually gains a larger and large advantage, the longer its economy remains intact. Look at WW2, when the Nazis were crushed in a large part to a 2 to one industrial disadvantage. Here, there is a disparity of nine orders of magnitude.
One there is no evidence the Star Wars industry can grow exponentially, nor that the Federation industry couldn't grow proportionally to match.
By your own admission, the Death Star was a drop in the bucket and only amounted to the resource requirement of a few sector groups.Second there are indications the Empire was pushing its industry as much as it could, with the DS project sucking down resources, and it wasn't building ginormouse battlefleets. Third the war is likely to be over long before any of this industrial ramp up could hope to go into effect.
LOL. A rather evasive way to say "the Federation is fucked."Centerpoint Station is an interesting nut to crack no two ways about it.
Impossible. Why don't you try to locate in the quintillion quintillion quintillion cubic kilometers of space, assemble a fleet, and then jump to it in the time it takes for me to order its captain to press a big red button directed at Earth, and see who wins the race?Depending on the era you could certainly bring it into play and I would certainly try and take it out again.
No, at best, you get the modern United States facing off against WWII America in a nuclear war [this analogy is imperfect; it ignores my planetary shields, and the size disparity]. One side has ICBMs, the other has nukes delivered manually by bombers. Let's see who wins.Impartially it likely would be your best hope of inflicting damage to the Federation, assuming it can be transfered into the Milky Way galaxy, but at best all you could achieve is MAD.
Sorry if I snipped out large portions of text; this took 90 minutes to type up. I'm going to need to significantly cut down the amount that I type and respond to here, and just focus on key point. Additionally, my rhetoric may have suffered as a result...but style of substance, right?