Total War Spin on an invasion of the Sw Galaxy

[StarWarsStarTrek]

No. As I said previously:

It doesn't work that way. Halfway across the galaxy has not quantified values, it be anything since we don't know the size of the galaxy at G-level. Conversely Padme gives us a very specific distance, less than a parsec, and we have a rough timeline. Here starting at 1:26:24 they zip into the sky and at 1:31:32 they arrive in system for a bare bones, absolute minimum of five minutes and this involves Palpy using forces powers to teleport thousands of senators into the senate who in turn are bowled over by thirty seconds of Jar-Jar gibberish.

from here again to you five minutes is the absolute minimum and assumes Palpy rounded up everyone for an emergency session and Jar-Jar gave a crowd pleasing speech in five minutes.

So, so now you are shifting topics to Wars hyperdrive speed.

See, your calculation assumes that no time passed in which Padme and Anakin were preparing to leave, or when they plotted a course, or when they actually landed on Geonosis (if I am thinking about the same scene that you are). I could go on and on; your calculation just makes too many assumptions. Now, if this were the only quantifiable hyperdrive feat in canon, we could work with what we have, but it's not.

Aside from wanting to cherry pick the lowest possible canon hyperdrive speed, there is no impartial reason to derive speeds from that scene instead of, say, Maul traveling from Coruscant to Geonosis, a feat that is far more concrete, that we can establish far more reliable lower and upper limits to the feat without needing to guesstimate.

Mind you, the size of the SW galaxy is inexplicably in dispute (even though the Essential Atlas blatantly mentions it to be 120,000 LY as I recall; a "modest sized galaxy" is far too ambiguous to prove or to disprove anything), yet even the smallest reasonable estimates for a "modest sized" spiral galaxy lead to numbers exceeding one million C.

Do I realize certain sects of Warsies try to claim every cut between scenes of action is a literal transition of time without skips to try and argue that the ships gracefully posing for the camera are actually super fast? [/quote]

Clearly you haven't actually analyzed any of these scenes yourself in detail, and just assumed that they were all ridiculous calculations made by Warsies, and that they completely disregarded potential scene cuts.

For one, there is Dooku's sail ship going from ground to past Geonosis's rings within the time it takes for Yoda to pick up his cane, and for Padme to rush inside to aid her severely injured friends. Implied acceleration here: 20,000 G.

There is also the Rebel X wing squadron circumnavigating Yavin IV to reach the Death Star in minutes. Well, actually, it's less than minutes; in one shot, we see them moving from around halfway across the gas giant to passing it in about six scenes.

Additionally, when we first encounter the Death Star, it goes from being invisible to taking up most of the Falcon's viewport in a matter of around a minute, if I recall. There are scene cuts; however, most of these are mid conversation, and always go back to the characters sitting in the same spot, sometimes even with the same facial expressions. Ergo, no significant timeskips are possible.

There are dozens more; and even some scary ones in the EU, such as moving an astronomical unit within minutes in KOTOR.

Yes. But that doesn't have anything to do with my argument, going with the absolute highest number for FTL for the G-canon example as possible, so I fail to see any merit.

I'm holding you to the bolded text.

The following events occur in TPM:

1. Darth Maul is ordered to go to Tatooine to hunt down Obi Wan and Qui Gon.
2. There is a sandstorm, and the two Jedi are invited by Anakin to stay. At lunch, he tells them of the pod-racing tournament being held the next morning.
3. At dawn [or dusk?], before the tournament, Darth Maul's ship has already landed, and he is seen dispatching probe droids and posing to look badass.

So in the course of around half a day, Darth Maul travels "halfway across the galaxy" (Padme). If we use the explicitly stated, canonical 120,000 light year statement from the Essential Atlas in regards to the length of the SW galaxy, then Darth Maul's ship had speeds of around 43 million C.

Even if the galaxy were only 20,000 light years in length, Darth Maul's ship still had speeds of around 7 million C.

So you are arguing more time elapsed which slows down the figure?

Um, I was actually taking about the Trek slipstream calculation.

No. It simply means the Galaxy is small enough to cross in a day at 100,000c. Again going by the highest canon.

It would help to actually consider the math before you make statements like this. In order for that to be the case, the galaxy would have had to have been only around 100 light years in length. This is not "modest sized"; this is "could collapse into a black hole at any time".

<snip disagreements over the OP>

I don't see where in the OP you are given all technology on a whim. You have access to them, and the veil of CIS is lifted so that you can actually use them; this does not equate to magically having them installed on all of your ships.

Okay? Its the trilithium resin which caused the fifty years of scorched earth which is all I care about. Oh and its trilithium. Copy and past it if you can't spell.

Context. It was a reference to an earlier claim by Trinoya, in a separate thread. It's ok.

<snip logistics/see above> And as for shields on the few worlds which have planatary shields that might become an issue.

You still haven't showed me where it is implied that planetary shields are monumentally difficult to construct, so much that a civilization that can build Death Stars cannot mass produce them.

because the time to do it is decreasing at a rapid rate? Because slipstream is a leap forward in propulsion technology? And of course you ignored everything else just to try and focus on star charting.

Do the math then. Don't just vaguely exclaim that the rate is decreasing "at a rapid rate", and expect this to be sufficient.

Again I have stated magic is not involved nor have you actually replied to my statement on how I plan to obtain maps of the planets.

A spy network? Explain to me, please, how this would work. For starters, how would they install spies in planets or on fleets before they locate them?

Which amounts to little

Because you say so?

and is unlikely to be able to intercept a ship which just drops out of slipstream launches a missile and jumps back to FTL.

But your Trek orbital defenses can intercept a ship dropping out of hyperspace, launching nuclear missiles and then jumping back because you say so, right?

Not to mention diverting your forces to guard all of your worlds is what I want you to do.

Except that I have such a massive fleet that I can do both at the same time, unlike you. Or just deploy defense systems such a golans that are designed specifically to defend planets anyway, and don't move with invasion fleets.

Few planets it appears have a planetary shield. And it is debateable if it could be raised in time or not to prevent the attack regardless.

And when is it ever implied that it takes a significant amount of time to raise a planetary shield?

Hoth was an important rebel base

So what? The Rebels were effectively nomads by ESB; Hoth was a temporary, makeshift base that they set up on a whim. Did Echo Base look like a well supplied defense fortress now? With the Galactic Alliance, I have infinitely more resources.

and a theater shield is a far cry from a planatary shield.

Yes, but the ratio in resource-strain would be smaller than the ratio between the resources of the Alliance and the resources of the Galactic Alliance.

Coruscant does not have a planatary shield as of ROTS.

Yes it does, according to the EU. Given that the entire attack was an inside job by the supreme chancellor himself, sabotaging the shield would be ridiculously easy.

But wait...this is irrelevant, since the Galactic Alliance's Coruscant certainly possesses a shield, as shown in Star by Star.

Kamino does not have a plantary shield as of Arc Troopers season 3 of the Clone Wars.

Irrelevant. It has a shield as of TFUII novel.

Naboo I don't have data on however per ROTS novel:

""Utapau," Grievous said slowly, as though explaining to a child, "is a hostile planet under military occupation. It was never intended to be more than a stopgap, while the defenses of the base on Mustafar were completed. Now that they are, Mustafar is the most secure planet in the galaxy. The stronghold prepared for you can withstand the entire Republic Navy."
"It should," Gunray muttered. "Construction nearly bankrupted the Trade Federation! [...]
"The base is secure. It can stand against a thousand Jedi. Ten thousand.

Is a very fortified place and there is naught mention or implication of a planatary shield in either the movie or the novel. So I highly doubt Naboo realy has plantary shields. I also doubt my forces will run into them in any signifigant number.

Given that Mustafar was never invaded, I fail to see how this proves or disproofs anything. Vader was welcomed by the Seperatists; ergo, they would have lowered the shields for him. Obi Wan and Padme arrived after the seperatists were all slaughtered. There is nothing here.

The fact your suggesting building heavily specilied systems, mulitple per planet, to combat a piece of stock issued torpedo with industrail waste strapped to it. The fact that your suggesting a massive undertaking of retrofitting a million worlds on the fly.

Excellent circular reasoning. The obvious response to requesting proof that planetary shields are extremely expensive...is saying that they are a "massive undertaking"!

You have to detect the ship, determin it is a threat and raise shields. My ship just has to drop out and fire. If I fail I'm out a torpedo. If you fail you out a planet. I can live with those odds.

First, this works both ways.

Second, it will not take much time to "determin it is a threat". I program the shield generator to activate the nanosecond a warp signature is detected.

Or they hyperjump. We don't see the scene in question through I'm not sure where your getting the time table from. We simply know the fleet ending up in position to trap the rebel fleet between the Death Star.

Wrong. Read the acceleration thread; they are described as flying out from behind Ender.

Where? I don't remember many ISDs ramming the Executor in ROTJ or TESB,

No, it was in a comic book.

Mind you, before going into hyperspace, every ship visibly accelerates to relativistic speeds; and then decelerates within a millisecond after dropping out. The energy needed to accomplish this is astronomical.

but I do remember that asteriod owning one of those vaunted ISDs and it wasn't doing fractions of high c.

...this again? The novel clearly described the asteroid hitting its hull. Ergo, its shields were down.

And this is baded off of?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsNv6c6chBA

The Falcon rapidly accelerates right before moving to lightspeed; then, it rapidly decelerates right after. Somebody calc'd this a while back, although I cannot locate the source at this moment.

Quote please?

Unfortunately, I cannot locate the full context to prove my hyperspace point. However, there is this:

Dozens of refugee ships were already lumbering up from Talfaglio, in their haste to escape willing to brave even the heart of the fighting. Still moving at a substantial percentage of lightspeed, the Sabers flashed past a trio of Dozen X-wings.

And this:

Then Danni remembered the block - the block the Yuuzhan Vong could not have seen when they grabbed the glowball - the two tons of durasteel accelerated to no small percentage of lightspeed.

And this from Shadows of Mindor:

Even with all these advantages, the overwhelming odds took their toll.
Some X-wings were lost to friendly fire, as they were traveling too fast for
the Slash-E gunners-or even their own superb reflexes-to react as they
swept through the quad turrets' fields of fire. Some were lost to simple
collisions, flying at near-relativistic speeds through very, very crowded
space. Almost half of the Twenty-third's Green Squadron was taken out by
a mass of asteroids that didn't co-here into a planetoid as quickly as the
navicomps had predicted.

Not judging by ROTJ where it got KO'ed by the Rebel fleet, noticably less than a hundred ships, I'd rather take a couple dozen ISDs if I had the choice.

It was KO'd by the concentrated firepower of the entire Rebel fleet. I fail to see how this proves anything. Have you done the math to discount my point?

Which would only make the planetary shield weaker if you keep the same number of power sources. If there are additional, which I believe is the case since War Planetary shields are essentially theather shields linked togather, than speaking of size is immaterial.

Or the planetary shield is simply far larger; and the surface area of the shield will increase by a lower exponent than the volume of the reactor. Hence why the Executor's shields are stronger than that of a standard ISD, and yet are significantly weaker even than a theater shield.

One being secret and on the outer rim means nothing. It has zero bearing to how much of the Empire was focused on building the white elephants. Two has anyone demostrated building fully fuctional pint sized deathstars? Three That is still six months.

Wait...am I getting this right?

Are you arguing that there is absolutely no strain in having to construct a project in secret? That there is no strain in having to construct a project in an obscure location, away from your industrial base?

Do you...have any idea what you're talking about?

Just pointing out G-canon 20 years to complete DSI.

Irrelevant. I explained this to you.

No years. Building it at Coruscant or at Endor changes nothing

Really, I don't mean anything personal here, but hearing you say this is certainly facepalm worthy. Thinking that building a project in the outer rim is no more difficult than building in in your industrial base...BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yes I do. However the Death Star II was found by the rebels in ROTJ

Because the Emperor wanted them to. You clearly have not watched RotJ in a long time.

and in the Death Star novel the DSI is assaulted by a rebel ship.

The first Death Star was not nearly as secretive by the events of the Death Star novel, as its existence was known by the galaxy's bartenders and smugglers. The fact that the Rebels learned of its location after a spy network built up over many years means nothing.

and Plenetary shields are for all intents and purposes nonexistent.

WTF is this? "for all intents and purposes nonexistent"?

Actually its armor and shielding is quite atrocious with snubfighters able to penertrate its shields

You...don't know what you're talking about again, do you?

The first Death Star had gaps in its shields that could be penetrated by starfighters, yes. But the second Death Star eliminated this flaw.

EGW, p 154
Lemelisk eliminated the small gaps in the shields that had allowed starfighters to penetrate the first Death Star's defences ...

and damage its outer hull,shaking crewmembers inside, it is quite defeatable by a Federation style fleet.

Wait...are you being serious here?

The first Death Star's rudimentary shielding tanked mountain fragments impacting its deflector shields at hypersonic velocities without suffering any damage. It also would have had to have a hull made out of material 300,000 times the strength of structural steel just be have been able to accelerate at one kilometer per sec^2.

Even if the Federation could dent its shields and its armor, the battle station is so impossibly massive that you might as well try to destroy the moon with photon torpedos.

My planets in the Unknown Region or my planets in the Federation proper? One of those will be hard to hit, the other nearly impossible in any considerate time or with useful strenght.

Nah, the latter. And you haven't considered the math. Given hyperdrive speeds of 50 million C, I can reach your planets within hours, and given WEG stats giving me 2 million heavy destroyers, I can drown your systems in numbers.

No you didn't. No where have you addressed the DSI only taking up the resources for a score of Sector Groups, about 480 Star Destroyers and tens of thousands of lesser ships plus the ground forces. A drop in the bucket, even assuming you could maintain that annually it doesn't amount to anywhere near what you talk about.

Wait...you do realize that this is in complete odds with your idea that the Death Star severely strained the imperial economy, do you?

Every shred of evidence suggests ships do no collorate with the DS.

This isn't a matter of canon, it's a matter of simple mathematics and construction concepts. The Death Star is billions of times larger than a star destroyer; by extension, it is far, far, far more resource extensive. But please, explain to me your rationale as to how the Death Star could only require the resources of a few hundred star destroyers, and present your math as to how this is even remotely conceivable.

It is more along the lines of building a hundred frigates or one DS. Apparently Economies of scale really love Death Stars.

Wait...

You think that building a hundred frigates is just as difficult as building a DS that outmasses said frigates by nine orders of magnitude?

...and then you argue that the Death Star was a significant focus of the imperial budget, and that it strained the economy greatly, even though it only amounted to "a hundred frigates". Really, this is just brilliant.

That was a fan calcuation as I informed you. The WEG ISB lists 24 Star Destroyers and 1600 other combat ships per Sector Group and that there are thousands of Sector Groups. And that is the Entire naval force of the Empire as described in the ISB which is the only canon source I know of which deals with the Imperial Navy on such matters.

Incorrect. Each sector group also possessed 2400 capital battle-ships and, as you say, 1600 support ships. So we have here 2.4 million warships and 1.6 million support ships, just in the sector groups alone, massively outnumbering your starfleet.

What is more, you are assuming that the sector groups comprise of the totality of the imperial starfleet. However, in addition to the presence of various uniquely named fleets that are clearly not a part of any sector group, the Empire canonically possessed trillions of naval crew members, implying a presence of many billions of ships, although most of these were likely smaller traffic control vessels. The number "billions" may prompt a knee jerk reaction of incredulity; however, the presence of the Death Star, and the logistics of controlling one million systems, actually make this figure reasonably low end.

Additionally, we have Star Wars Slave Ship's instance of a transport fleet carrying away a planet's world-encircling oceans. Meaning that this single transport fleet [albeit large] already has a volume greater than the entire Federation starfleet!

Anything particular I"m looking for?[/quote]

It might not be there, actually:

When Luke closed his eyes and began breathing in deep, slow waves, Eckels noted it without comment. But he was not wholly surprised when, a short time later, the vagabond disappeared completely from view.

"You have been practicing," Eckels said, clapping Luke's shoulder approvingly. "I confess I want to stay and document it almost especially the day when the Qella begin to emerge. But this is best, to leave them alone. Tell me, what will you have done least?" "I don't know how long it will last," Luke said, gazing down on the planet. "Maybe not long at all. The forces affecting the ship are complex, and my teacher said that my touch is still too heavy. I had to try, though- try to draw the curtain and give them back their privacy, give them some time to heal, to build."

The vagabond is around the size of an imperial star destroyer.

Since Starfleet is not incompetent

....

...

...

.......

Explain to me, then, why Picard sends himself over to the enemy ship in Nemesis, instead of taking a team of men with him, and why the enemy crew is so incompetent that he single handedly takes out the entire ship.

I have explained I'll handle them by virtue of them not existing in aprecitable numbers. That to undertake the effort to build them over a multitude of planets is more likely to drain away precious resources then accomplish anything productive.

Your assumption, with jack evidence.

Such a device won't exist for any aprectiable amount of time.

Incorrect. You contradict yourself by claiming that a Death Star only amounts to a hundred or so frigates, a "drop in the bucket" by your own words.

Well for starters Hyperdrives is useless without charted hyperlanes

Except that Luke and Leia scout out spaces without hyperlanes in Dark Empire, and once again you are making a complete and utter assumption without the slightest bit of evidence.

You are under the impression that hyperlanes being of extreme importance magically means that without them, hyperdrives are suddenly "useless".

so an invasion of the Federation proper is almost impossible.

Who cares if they are ten times slower without hyperlanes? They will still get there within days; not enough time for you to do anything.

Second my entire plan is to infflict such destruction, so fast and across such a breadth you will be hard pressed to marshal and deploy such formations for any duty.

Impossible.

1. Your mass blitzkrieg would be slower than mine, because you have less ships than I do, and you have more planets to target, and at least all of my important planets have shields, and you have presented no evidence suggesting that slipstream is as fast as hyperdrive.

2. Your plan will only be potentially effective against unshielded worlds. Worlds such as Fondor and Coruscant are shielded, and these are my main economic and industrial bases anyhow.

3. Your plan does no harm to my shipyards or my standing fleet and army.

But obviously as Subcommander Tyler highlighted the plan does hinge on the Imperial Starfleets being tied down on defense.

How do you put a civilization larger than you, with a more massive fleet than you, and with significantly faster ships than you on the "defensive"?

Your kidding. By evading it and stretching it thin across its own territory perhaps?

Except that the enormous speed of hyperdrive means that your starfleet is the one that will be stretched thin. And even "stretched thin", the mathematics of the Death Star mean that I can still produce more tonnage than the Alpha Quadrant combined, using 1% of my annual budget. Making a ridiculous assertion that the Death Star magically equals 100 frigates, when all common sense, math and engineering laughs in this idea's face, doesn't help your point in the slightest.

I didn't handwave I presented clear evidence, multple times across the times we've debated, on why the Death Stars don't work with the rest of the fleet. And if you have other examples you are free to provide them.

Your response betrays a negligence of basic economic principles; the same industry that produced the Death Star also produces ships and weapons. You cannot magically separate the two of them, as though this were C&C and we have separate construction queues. ISD's take time, manpower, steel and power; so does the Death Star, on a larger scale.

Your insistence (based on a vague interpretation of a C canon source) is the equivalent of arguing that a race capable of building a dyson sphere cannot build one million Empire state buildings, because there is a magical barrier between the two industrial feats.

One there is no evidence the Star Wars industry can grow exponentially, nor that the Federation industry couldn't grow proportionally to match.

That's...not what I meant at all. In war, the side with the larger industry and economy gradually gains a larger and large advantage, the longer its economy remains intact. Look at WW2, when the Nazis were crushed in a large part to a 2 to one industrial disadvantage. Here, there is a disparity of nine orders of magnitude.

Second there are indications the Empire was pushing its industry as much as it could, with the DS project sucking down resources, and it wasn't building ginormouse battlefleets. Third the war is likely to be over long before any of this industrial ramp up could hope to go into effect.

By your own admission, the Death Star was a drop in the bucket and only amounted to the resource requirement of a few sector groups.

Centerpoint Station is an interesting nut to crack no two ways about it.

LOL. A rather evasive way to say "the Federation is fucked."

Depending on the era you could certainly bring it into play and I would certainly try and take it out again.

Impossible. Why don't you try to locate in the quintillion quintillion quintillion cubic kilometers of space, assemble a fleet, and then jump to it in the time it takes for me to order its captain to press a big red button directed at Earth, and see who wins the race?

Impartially it likely would be your best hope of inflicting damage to the Federation, assuming it can be transfered into the Milky Way galaxy, but at best all you could achieve is MAD.

No, at best, you get the modern United States facing off against WWII America in a nuclear war [this analogy is imperfect; it ignores my planetary shields, and the size disparity]. One side has ICBMs, the other has nukes delivered manually by bombers. Let's see who wins.


Sorry if I snipped out large portions of text; this took 90 minutes to type up. I'm going to need to significantly cut down the amount that I type and respond to here, and just focus on key point. Additionally, my rhetoric may have suffered as a result...but style of substance, right?

[sonofccn]

So, so now you are shifting topics to Wars hyperdrive speed.

No I've been talking about hyperdrives. The five minutes for slipstream is a gross over estimation because I'm trying to go low end. Involving people standing exactly in the same place over the duration of thirty seconds as shown in the original clip I brought to your attention quite some time ago.

See, your calculation assumes that no time passed in which Padme and Anakin were preparing to leave, or when they plotted a course, or when they actually landed on Geonosis (if I am thinking about the same scene that you are). I could go on and on; your calculation just makes too many assumptions.

I started counting after the ships zips off into the sky so they already left by that point by any reasonable measurement as shown in the original clip I showed to you all that time ago. I then stop counting the instant we are shown that they have arrived at Genosis. Plotting a course should take merely a few seconds and is well within the margin of error for this grossly generous time limit. So no outrages assumptions. By reasonable standards the trip is going to take far longer than five minutes.

Now, if this were the only quantifiable hyperdrive feat in canon, we could work with what we have, but it's not.

It is of the highest canon. Movie distance and time. As per the canon policy you advocate.

Aside from wanting to cherry pick the lowest possible canon hyperdrive speed, there is no impartial reason to derive speeds from that scene instead of, say, Maul traveling from Coruscant to Geonosis, a feat that is far more concrete, that we can establish far more reliable lower and upper limits to the feat without needing to guesstimate.

The Maul trip is far less concrete. We are not given a distance unlike Padme's trip. For all the movie shows the two systems could be a parsec apart. So again Padme's trip is the superior and most authorative example.

Mind you, the size of the SW galaxy is inexplicably in dispute (even though the Essential Atlas blatantly mentions it to be 120,000 LY as I recall; a "modest sized galaxy" is far too ambiguous to prove or to disprove anything), yet even the smallest reasonable estimates for a "modest sized" spiral galaxy lead to numbers exceeding one million C.

The Star Wars galaxy has not been defined in size in the highest canon. My quote superseds any c-canon example you posses or any assumptions you have of the galaxy side regardless of how "reasonable" they might be. Simple. If at 100,000c you can cross the galaxy in hours said galaxy is quite small.

Clearly you haven't actually analyzed any of these scenes yourself in detail, and just assumed that they were all ridiculous calculations made by Warsies, and that they completely disregarded potential scene cuts.

No. I simply have issues with any assumption which posulates ships go really fast when we are not looking but when we do they slow down.

For one, there is Dooku's sail ship going from ground to past Geonosis's rings within the time it takes for Yoda to pick up his cane, and for Padme to rush inside to aid her severely injured friends. Implied acceleration here: 20,000 G.

Except that means Dooku limped out of sight during his rising scene, floored it, and then braked it just in time to be caught by the camera. Which is ludricus. Its a nonsensical outlier.

There is also the Rebel X wing squadron circumnavigating Yavin IV to reach the Death Star in minutes. Well, actually, it's less than minutes; in one shot, we see them moving from around halfway across the gas giant to passing it in about six scenes.

Actually to the best of my recollection we see them rising up into the atmosphere, we then see them grace the camera with the red giant roughly behind them and then they are at the death star, which was slinging around said red giant, but if you could provide the scene in question and prove my memory is faltering again then we can talk.

Additionally, when we first encounter the Death Star, it goes from being invisible to taking up most of the Falcon's viewport in a matter of around a minute, if I recall. There are scene cuts; however, most of these are mid conversation, and always go back to the characters sitting in the same spot, sometimes even with the same facial expressions. Ergo, no significant timeskips are possible.

That typically isn't brought up in these sort of discussions. Feel free however to run calculations and see how fast the MF was during the scene in question.

There are dozens more; and even some scary ones in the EU, such as moving an astronomical unit within minutes in KOTOR.

The descriptor scary is inaccurate. I do not fear evidence. However any such evidence would be overruled by G-canon visuals of various ships moving and not traversing AUs.

I'm holding you to the bolded text.

You may. Find another example with Movie level time and distance.

The following events occur in TPM:

1. Darth Maul is ordered to go to Tatooine to hunt down Obi Wan and Qui Gon.
2. There is a sandstorm, and the two Jedi are invited by Anakin to stay. At lunch, he tells them of the pod-racing tournament being held the next morning.
3. At dawn [or dusk?], before the tournament, Darth Maul's ship has already landed, and he is seen dispatching probe droids and posing to look badass.

So in the course of around half a day, Darth Maul travels "halfway across the galaxy" (Padme). If we use the explicitly stated, canonical 120,000 light year statement from the Essential Atlas in regards to the length of the SW galaxy, then Darth Maul's ship had speeds of around 43 million C.

Except your using a C-canon source for distance which is inferior to my example. I have been quite clear on this matter. I am using the highest canon available to determine True Star Wars as it is percieved by Lucas.

It would help to actually consider the math before you make statements like this. In order for that to be the case, the galaxy would have had to have been only around 100 light years in length. This is not "modest sized"; this is "could collapse into a black hole at any time".

As I said the last time on the subject yes it is quite small but thats fine for a soft science-fantasy popcorn universe with magic samuris and space cowboys. Quite simply it can only be overruled by equally valid evidence from the universe in question which you have not provided.

I don't see where in the OP you are given all technology on a whim. You have access to them, and the veil of CIS is lifted so that you can actually use them; this does not equate to magically having them installed on all of your ships.

As I said take it up with Breetia.

Context. It was a reference to an earlier claim by Trinoya, in a separate thread. It's ok.

Context I am not Trinoya, it was in a separate thread, and has nothing to do with our discussion at hand and needlessly clutters up the post.

You still haven't showed me where it is implied that planetary shields are monumentally difficult to construct

How about your essentially building quite possibly thousand per world shield and reactors comparable to very large starships, which are not exactly rolling off the assembly line, or that almost no one it appears has one?

Do the math then. Don't just vaguely exclaim that the rate is decreasing "at a rapid rate", and expect this to be sufficient.

22nd century-24th 11% of the galaxy charted

24th century plus one year 13% of the galaxy charted.

simple enough?

A spy network? Explain to me, please, how this would work. For starters, how would they install spies in planets or on fleets before they locate them?

Through whatever cultural contact we have between the alliance and the federation, through planets found through the other listed means, by simply driving at a million c until you reach a planet, by covertly replacing personel of captured warships and tradeships with surgically altered agents, as the Cardassians can do, who are then brought back by you. Etc.

Because you say so?

No because I consider bulkcruisers, gunships, strikecrafts and the like small potatoes. Unlikely to be able to spring and intercept a ship only interested in dropping in and firing off a missile. Now if you have evidence your average world has its own task force of Star Destroyers that might be worth reconsidering my statement.

But your Trek orbital defenses can intercept a ship dropping out of hyperspace, launching nuclear missiles and then jumping back because you say so, right?

When they launch from light minutes away with a sublight weapon yes, yes they can.

Except that I have such a massive fleet that I can do both at the same time, unlike you.

You know I think I'll let Subcommander Tyler field this question. No point answering them all myself. ;)

Greetings. Let us began.

For the scenario before us I find your confidence unbecoming and potentially inaccurate. Traits the Empire, or *spit* the usurping Galactic Alliance, can ill afford. To discuss your "strategy" firstly it is based on a nontransparent assumption. In fact two. Starting with the blanket assumption you simply have a massive enough force in order to both effectivly defend holdings and launch a major offensive into enemy territory. Which is a reckless disregard for your resources, all assets serve at the Emperor's pleasure but to squander so much as a rifleman is nigh treason.

In detail garrison one hundred thousand worlds with a ship apiece and you have reduced your total force by one hundred thousand. Ships which can't be used in your offense or on "mundan" duties such as escorting freighters or hunting down local pirate forces. Nor can one ship be expected to be an effective screen, the nature of the threat by its very nature forcing you to literally blockaid each world in questions perhaps drawing hundreds of warships of various class. Devouring our advantage of superior numbers needlessly and senselessly.

Your second assumption is that the enemy lacks insufficent numbers "to do both". That may or may not be true but I find your reasoning to reach this conclusion quite flawed. As should not need to be stated we face an enemy which is not interested in picking stand up fights, of conquest only our destruction. A single ship may posion tens of worlds before it needs resupply. A mere thousand could strike down tens of thousands of worlds in but the lenght it takes them to reach their targets rendering traditional assumptions of relatively "bulky" and large battlegroups required by OOB to take star systems inaccurate and counter-intuative.

The other item you fail to account for besides your twin assumptions is the divergence factor of vessel strenght of our navy and theirs. Simply put there is a larger gulf between a systems patrol ship and a Imperial Star Destroyer than there is between their Galaxy class and their retrofitted Miranda class. Which can make our fleet advantage decpetivly larger than it truly is.
- Subcommander Tyler

And when is it ever implied that it takes a significant amount of time to raise a planetary shield?

And as I explained we are talking about spotting, identifying and issuing the command. I'm assuming it only takes some few seconds but it doesn't really take any longer to drop out of slipstream and fire the torpedo.

So what? The Rebels were effectively nomads by ESB; Hoth was a temporary, makeshift base that they set up on a whim.

That doesn't matter, through the installation of the nonmobile ion cannon as well as reactor and shield generator does suggest the settling down of roots, what is important is the investment of resources the Rebels were willing to spend. Greater than Naboo was for instances and therefore while they may not the bleeding cutting edge nothing suggests the Rebel defense equipment was subpar.

Yes, but the ratio in resource-strain would be smaller than the ratio between the resources of the Alliance and the resources of the Galactic Alliance.

If we were talking of the same scale, one planet, maybe. Even that is one known shield generator vs however many you need to fully shield a planet, but you are talking about trying to retrofit as many planets as possible.

Yes it does, according to the EU. Given that the entire attack was an inside job by the supreme chancellor himself, sabotaging the shield would be ridiculously easy.

And no one comments on it? Even when fiery debris raining down murdering civilians?

"Flying over a landscape pocked with smoldering wreckage were once tall buildings filled with living beings had gleamed in the sun,

Nope. EU is dead wrong.

But wait...this is irrelevant, since the Galactic Alliance's Coruscant certainly possesses a shield, as shown in Star by Star.

Actually its quite revelant to the discussion. If the Coruscant, the capital of the Republic, didn't get a planetary shield until sometime after the militant Empire took power that really goes along with them not being common.

Irrelevant. It has a shield as of TFUII novel.

Obviously first point would be for you to post the revelant quote. Second confirmation of when exactly this takes place.

Given that Mustafar was never invaded, I fail to see how this proves or disproofs anything.

Here.

Mustafar burned with lava streaming from volcanoes of glittering obsidian. At the fringe of its gravity well, a spray of prismatic starlight warped a starfighter into existence. Declamping from its hyperdrive ring, the starfighter streaked into an atmosphere choked with dense smoke and cinders. The starfighter followed a preprogrammed course toward the planet’s lone installation, an automated lava mine built originally by the Techno Union to draw precious metals from the continuous rivers of burning stone. Upgraded with the finest mechanized defenses that money could buy, the settlement had become the final redoubt of the leaders of the Confederacy of Independent Systems. It was absolutely impenetrable.

The defenses are at the installation, the settlement, not the ashy planet's atmosphere.

Through in case your curious Anakin posseses the deactivation code which allowed him to land at it, as opposed to needing it to enter its atmosphere.

Excellent circular reasoning. The obvious response to requesting proof that planetary shields are extremely expensive...is saying that they are a "massive undertaking"!

No they may be related but they are not one and the same. You are undergoing a massive undertaking claiming to on the fly essentially "upgrade" the vast sum of your worlds to possesing a planetary shield. That is a massive undertaking no matter anything else, a huge infastructure you more or less are attempting to handwave.

First, this works both ways.

Not really. My ship is dropping out deliberatly to attack the planet, that is only reason why they are going there. There is no simiularity between them and the guys stationed on planet who'd have to decide if that blip is a freighter dropping out of hyperspace or an enemy warship.

Second, it will not take much time to "determin it is a threat". I program the shield generator to activate the nanosecond a warp signature is detected.

First I would demand evidence of such automation in Star Wars. Second evidence Star Wars sensors can detect slipstream as any specific and unique signature that you could key off of and third that it can be juri-rigged up in the weeks or months to be of any use and fourth the additional cost the additional computer technology and sensors systems are going to run this little project of yours.

Wrong. Read the acceleration thread; they are described as flying out from behind Ender.

And it conflicts with what we see, the Imp fleet just springs and ambushes the Rebel fleet, it doesn't get the fleet into a pincer, the manuver was preplanned meaning even if they did it sublight they needn't have to wait until the rebel fleet arrive to began to respond, and lastly you never answered 2046 on the whole low orbit thing.

No, it was in a comic book.

Pictures then?

...this again? The novel clearly described the asteroid hitting its hull. Ergo, its shields were down.

And? It got wiped out by the little rock and its sisterships had suffered damage.

NEEDA
(in hologram)
... and that, Lord Vader, was the
last time they appeared in any of
our scopes. Considering the amount
of damage we've sustained, they
must have been destroyed.

Those are not relativistic asteriods in that field nor are they particuarly massive.

The Falcon rapidly accelerates right before moving to lightspeed; then, it rapidly decelerates right after.

It jumps to lightspeed. Which as a FTL drive is faster than the speed of light and is not proof the MF can accelerate or decelerate at relativistic speeds with its sublight drive. In counter-point we see the MF and other vessels at sublight and whenever we have anything to mark them against they noticably don't fly at high fractions of c.

Dozens of refugee ships were already lumbering up from Talfaglio, in their haste to escape willing to brave even the heart of the fighting. Still moving at a substantial percentage of lightspeed, the Sabers flashed past a trio of Dozen X-wings.

Have the "Sabers" dropped out of hyperspace? Or are we talking about the relief ships which are lumbering up from Talfaglio?

Then Danni remembered the block - the block the Yuuzhan Vong could not have seen when they grabbed the glowball - the two tons of durasteel accelerated to no small percentage of lightspeed.

I don't see anything to suggest Danni engaged hyperdrive in this. And I have superior canon showing ships can't accelerate like this on sublight.

Even with all these advantages, the overwhelming odds took their toll.
Some X-wings were lost to friendly fire, as they were traveling too fast for
the Slash-E gunners-or even their own superb reflexes-to react as they
swept through the quad turrets' fields of fire. Some were lost to simple
collisions, flying at near-relativistic speeds through very, very crowded
space. Almost half of the Twenty-third's Green Squadron was taken out by
a mass of asteroids that didn't co-here into a planetoid as quickly as the
navicomps had predicted.

Again I'm not seeing hyperdrive being employed here. And all I have to do is point to ANH and the trench run, with the X-wings going as fast as possible, to disprove "near-relativisitc speeds".

It was KO'd by the concentrated firepower of the entire Rebel fleet. I fail to see how this proves anything. Have you done the math to discount my point?

Firstly the word math doesn't seem to mean what you think it means. You appear to try and use it as a "I win card". Second the Rebel fleet doesn't number a hundred vessels. It has even less "big ships" like the MC80s. Yet with thirty seconds of focused fire it brought down the shields of the Executor making the SSD's life expectancy to be measured at most in minutes even assuming an A-wing didn't smash into its bridge. The same fleet which can't defeat, and is infact outmatched, by the thirty ISDs. So like I said I'd prefer a couple of dozen ISDs to one SSD.

As to your firepower remark since you didn't quantify it, 100 patrol ships or ISDs or Galaxy class, there isn't really much for me to respond to.

Or the planetary shield is simply far larger;

Unless you scale up the reactor to go with your larger shield you will have a weaker shield. And the larger area you cover the far more powerful you have to keep your reactor just to stay the same.

Are you arguing that there is absolutely no strain in having to construct a project in secret?

When your an evil empire with all of space to build? No. It isn't like you can actually check some budget and just notice stuff is being earmarked for the DS project.

That there is no strain in having to construct a project in an obscure location, away from your industrial base?

Not when you are giving the full support of said industrial base. When said industrial base can still manufacture all your parts leaving you only the job of assembling. Not when you have a freaking Sanctuary pipeline set up to support you. The Death Star projects were major, fully supported projects by the Empire. There is no getting around this.

Do you...have any idea what you're talking about?

Yes I do. But I'm not a troll trying to maximize my pet franchize.

Irrelevant. I explained this to you.

Bolding doesn't make your statement anymore true. And it is quite revelant to my case that these things are not easy to manufacture.

Because the Emperor wanted them to. You clearly have not watched RotJ in a long time.

Yes it was a trap. That doesn't make the spies they used any less real. The point is it was believable intel not that they just found a note saying where to go.

The first Death Star was not nearly as secretive by the events of the Death Star novel, as its existence was known by the galaxy's bartenders and smugglers. The fact that the Rebels learned of its location after a spy network built up over many years means nothing.

Except your incredious "but space is big" is an irrevelent statement.

WTF is this? "for all intents and purposes nonexistent"?

Very select few planets have them. So for all intents and puroses they don't exist.

You...don't know what you're talking about again, do you?

Nope. Still do. :)

The first Death Star had gaps in its shields that could be penetrated by starfighters, yes. But the second Death Star eliminated this flaw.

And here we are talking about building a smaller DS1 which may or may not be capable of the "upgrades" of the DS2. As well you did say Death Star. ;) You were asking for it.

Wait...are you being serious here?

Yes.

The first Death Star's rudimentary shielding tanked mountain fragments impacting its deflector shields at hypersonic velocities without suffering any damage. It also would have had to have a hull made out of material 300,000 times the strength of structural steel just be have been able to accelerate at one kilometer per sec^2.

Those "rudimentary shields" can't stop snubfighters or therefore torpedoes. That armor can be pierced and damaged, to the extent crewmembers are being shaken inside the ship, by laser canons best measured in gigajoules. Torpedoes are tens if not hundreds of Petajoules. The outer armor will not resiest that and therefore those cannons won't survive. Once they've been cleared out you can take your time drilling down to the reactor.

Even if the Federation could dent its shields and its armor, the battle station is so impossibly massive that you might as well try to destroy the moon with photon torpedos.

The movie disagrees with you.

Nah, the latter. And you haven't considered the math. Given hyperdrive speeds of 50 million C

Overruled by my superior example. You have 100,000 c in charted space. Which makes an invasion of the Federation proper all but impossible like I said.

Wait...you do realize that this is in complete odds with your idea that the Death Star severely strained the imperial economy, do you?

Which is what I pointed out when I posted that little snipet the first time. But it has no basis on the argument that being secret and in the outer rim are proof that it is a miniscule or under supplied part of the Imperial budget.

And that isn't a response.

This isn't a matter of canon, it's a matter of simple mathematics and construction concepts.

No. Canon is paramount.

The Death Star is billions of times larger than a star destroyer; by extension, it is far, far, far more resource extensive.

Not according to C-canon. And that all I have to do is provide evidence, which I have, and unless you can provide equal or superior evidence to the contary it holds.

Wait...

You think that building a hundred frigates is just as difficult as building a DS that outmasses said frigates by nine orders of magnitude?

This would be a case of exageration to make a point but the DS falls closer to what I typed than what you have been pushing. As demostrated by canon.

...and then you argue that the Death Star was a significant focus of the imperial budget

I have argued you have offered no proof it wasn't, arguing heavily that being secret and remote doesn't mean it was an insgnificant amount of resources.

Incorrect. Each sector group also possessed 2400 capital battle-ships and, as you say, 1600 support ships. So we have here 2.4 million warships and 1.6 million support ships, just in the sector groups alone, massively outnumbering your starfleet

You will read this:

Each Sector group can be expected to contain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers and another 1,600 combat starships.

It is 1600 combat ships total, plus Star Destroyers, which run from system patrol ships to dreadnaught heavy cruisers. I have no idea where you are getting your drivel but it has no bearing to the Sourcebook or Star Wars.

What is more, you are assuming that the sector groups comprise of the totality of the imperial starfleet.

That is how the ISB treats it. So that is a fair assumption.

However, in addition to the presence of various uniquely named fleets that are clearly not a part of any sector group

The ISB itself states the Navy organizationally is a mess so I honestly don't care if sectors aren't listening to the OOB. I have posted the information for what a sector is given.

the Empire canonically possessed trillions of naval crew members, implying a presence of many billions of ships, although most of these were likely smaller traffic control vessels

I can trump that with my canon quote of there only being trillions in the Republic. G-canon as you already know. So we can toss your quote aside.

Additionally, we have Star Wars Slave Ship's instance of a transport fleet carrying away a planet's world-encircling oceans. Meaning that this single transport fleet [albeit large] already has a volume greater than the entire Federation starfleet!

The personal vendatta of the Emperor with an unknown fleet over an unknown duration means virtually nothing.

The vagabond is around the size of an imperial star destroyer.

Impressive but he appears to be having trouble maintaining it.

Explain to me, then, why Picard sends himself over to the enemy ship in Nemesis, instead of taking a team of men with him, and why the enemy crew is so incompetent that he single handedly takes out the entire ship.

Because he wanted to? He wasn't about to risk anyone elses life and the transporter was just about fracked out, it blew after he beamed over, the Enterprise was banged to hell and he had a countdown before the super weapon went off killing everyone.

Incorrect. You contradict yourself by claiming that a Death Star only amounts to a hundred or so frigates, a "drop in the bucket" by your own words.

No the time is seperate from a strictly cost issue. And as the G-canon shows, as you C-canon shows, as everything shows the deathstars can't be built quickly. That they take years to build.

Except that Luke and Leia scout out spaces without hyperlanes in Dark Empire, and once again you are making a complete and utter assumption without the slightest bit of evidence.

Revelant quotes please.

You are under the impression that hyperlanes being of extreme importance magically means that without them, hyperdrives are suddenly "useless".

You can only travel at a worthwhile speed, as demostrated by T-canon, in a hyperspace lane. To have lanes you must chart them. Ergo no charts no lanes no advance.

Who cares if they are ten times slower without hyperlanes?

And when you can prove they only drop by ten you can try and make this case.

1. Your mass blitzkrieg would be slower than mine, because you have less ships than I do, and you have more planets to target, and at least all of my important planets have shields, and you have presented no evidence suggesting that slipstream is as fast as hyperdrive.

1. I have proven my slipstream is heavily faster than your hyperdrive with highest canon. If you refuse to accept this you will be reported. 2. I don't need as many ships as you do to do what I need to do 3. you have more planets to defend 4. almost none of your worlds have shields.

2. Your plan will only be potentially effective against unshielded worlds. Worlds such as Fondor and Coruscant are shielded, and these are my main economic and industrial bases anyhow.

The few worlds that have shields still run the risk of a missile going through before they can get it up.

3. Your plan does no harm to my shipyards or my standing fleet and army.

No. It just destroys your actual domain.

How do you put a civilization larger than you, with a more massive fleet than you, and with significantly faster ships than you on the "defensive"?

By have ships far superior to their basic ship offsetting numbers, by being actually faster and by not fighting said ships but "nuking" the worlds they are supposed to defend. Just a reminder I'm not trying to conqure you. I'm wiping you out.

Except that the enormous speed of hyperdrive means that your starfleet is the one that will be stretched thin.

Hyperdrive is slower as demostrated by G-canon.

And even "stretched thin", the mathematics of the Death Star mean that I can still produce more tonnage than the Alpha Quadrant combined, using 1% of my annual budget. Making a ridiculous assertion that the Death Star magically equals 100 frigates, when all common sense, math and engineering laughs in this idea's face, doesn't help your point in the slightest.

Except the death star equals a score of sector groups as demostrated with canon. You will accept this, or provide a counter proof in canon, or you will be reported.

Your insistence (based on a vague interpretation of a C canon source) is the equivalent of arguing that a race capable of building a dyson sphere cannot build one million Empire state buildings, because there is a magical barrier between the two industrial feats.

It is not vague. It flat out states they poured the resources of a score of sector groups. And it is canon. Absolute, irrefutiable except by another canon source. So to take your example if it is stated in the universe they can build dyson spheres but can't build a million empire state buildings that is what we have to deal with. So quit trying to jury-rig some calc off on the margine and actually work with the universe you have.

By your own admission, the Death Star was a drop in the bucket and only amounted to the resource requirement of a few sector groups.

And if you focus on building warships only you can add those sector groups back to the total but your not cracking huge numbers.

LOL. A rather evasive way to say "the Federation is fucked."

No. I meant what I said.

Impossible. Why don't you try to locate in the quintillion quintillion quintillion cubic kilometers of space, assemble a fleet, and then jump to it in the time it takes for me to order its captain to press a big red button directed at Earth, and see who wins the race?

Simple. Computer Corelli system. Engage. Conversly find Earth.

And killing Earth doesn't magicly make my fleet vanish.

No, at best, you get the modern United States facing off against WWII America in a nuclear war [this analogy is imperfect; it ignores my planetary shields, and the size disparity]. One side has ICBMs, the other has nukes delivered manually by bombers. Let's see who wins.

Are we talking about center point or the GA and Federation just overall? Because as it stands now discounting center point its more akin to the Modern US bombing WW2 American to smitherens with a handful of B-52s while you gloat and brag about having a lot of sherman tanks.

Sorry if I snipped out large portions of text; this took 90 minutes to type up.

It takes me in the range of three hours to cut through your posts, retrieve evidence etc. So don't cry me any rivers.

EDIT: Corrected MC90 to MC80

[sonofccn]

"Every resource" must clearly be hyperbole in that context, as all other EU describes the Death Star construction as taking place in secret on a black budget.

I believe Saxton considered the ROTS Death Star model to be the prototype the EU had already established as existing well before construction on the initial full-scale model had begun. Which would resolve the apparent contradiction between that scene and the earlier EU that had indicated a much later construction date for the first Death Star.

Now, I haven't been reading any new EU that's been published since around 2005, so that may have been retconned (again) since.

Well for what its worth wookieepedia suggests that is the DS1 in ROTS and the prototype was created after to work out the kinks encountered in trying to build the DS1.

[Admiral Breetai]

man subcommander Tylers absolutely right.

Mind you both seem to be forgetting that the allied forces have in fact occupied several Fed protectorates..meaning they have resources committed in the unknown regions..resources the Federation needs to boot them out of that territory and the allies need to fight to hold that territory.

essentially there is one huge conventional fight before the scorched earth doctrine is applied

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Once again, my rhetoric gets progressively rougher throughout this, due to time.

The five minutes for slipstream is a gross over estimation because I'm trying to go low end. Involving people standing exactly in the same place over the duration of thirty seconds as shown in the original clip I brought to your attention quite some time ago.

Your video...doesn't work anymore.

I started counting after the ships zips off into the sky so they already left by that point by any reasonable measurement as shown in the original clip I showed to you all that time ago. I then stop counting the instant we are shown that they have arrived at Genosis. Plotting a course should take merely a few seconds and is well within the margin of error for this grossly generous time limit. So no outrages assumptions. By reasonable standards the trip is going to take far longer than five minutes.

You are going to have to provide me a video clip here.

The Maul trip is far less concrete. We are not given a distance unlike Padme's trip.

And I have explained to you that even the lowest possible figures for the SW galaxy still give it enormous speeds above one million C.

And unlike your own, my figure is supported by various other calculations:

1. In RotJ, Luke surrenders himself on Endor. Then, in the novelization describes the Rebel fleet hanging "hundreds" of light years away from Endor. Luke is taken up to the Death Star to the Emperor's throne room, and the Rebel fleet arrives a minute or two after. Even if it took Vader twenty minutes to bring Luke to the Emperor, and even if "hundreds" of light years means two hundred light years, the Rebel fleet had to have moved at speeds of around 5.2 million C. [If you bring up darkstar's alternate theory, that it took the the imperials a day to bring the Rebels from inside the very tiny base to right outside, I will laugh.]

2. Vader goes to Mustafar to slaughter the remaining seperatists [according to you, this alone would have taken several months or years]. Padme learns of Anakin's fall, and travels to Mustafar, right after Anakin slaughters said seperatists and goes outside to pose dramatically.

3. Vader assembles various bounty hunters from across the galaxy to meet him in the asteroid belt. By your calculations, the fleet waited in the belt for several years.

2. For all the movie shows the two systems could be a parsec apart. So again Padme's trip is the superior and most authorative example.

If this were true, it would take SW ships months or years to traverse the galaxy. This would mean that the entire plot of Star Wars would never have transpired. Anakin would have been a teenager by the time Qui Gon landed on Tatooine, and a young adult by the end of the Battle of Naboo.

The Star Wars galaxy has not been defined in size in the highest canon.

Irrelevant. It has been defined in C canon. This is enough. Case closed.

If at 100,000c you can cross the galaxy in hours said galaxy is quite small.

Laughable circular reasoning. You have three variables here; speed, time and distance. The time is a given. The distance should be a given, but you clearly think otherwise. The speed is your own theory; and by your own admittance, it implies distances so ridiculously small, the galaxy would have collapsed into a black hole long ago. In other words, your speed figure doesn't fit in at all.

Yet you still hang on to your theory, handwaving away the logical holes and discrepancies!

No. I simply have issues with any assumption which posulates ships go really fast when we are not looking but when we do they slow down.

Nah, look at the X wings crossing Yavin IV.

]Except that means Dooku limped out of sight during his rising scene, floored it, and then braked it just in time to be caught by the camera. Which is ludricus. Its a nonsensical outlier.

Fine then. If you want to play "let's dismiss examples we don't like because they are outliers!", your hyperdrive calc is a nonsensical outlier. After all, the entire plot of every movie in both trilogies would have been completely impossible with such speeds.

Actually to the best of my recollection we see them rising up into the atmosphere, we then see them grace the camera with the red giant roughly behind them and then they are at the death star, which was slinging around said red giant, but if you could provide the scene in question and prove my memory is faltering again then we can talk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvc70ptopqw

2:42 onwards.

Is this a "nonsensical outlier" as well now?

That typically isn't brought up in these sort of discussions. Feel free however to run calculations and see how fast the MF was during the scene in question.

Coming from Foamy, who doesn't even subscribe to Saxton calcs:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=159

Except your using a C-canon source for distance which is inferior to my example. I have been quite clear on this matter. I am using the highest canon available to determine True Star Wars as it is percieved by Lucas.

First, there is no need to capitalize "true", or even if use the word. Your diction makes you sound like a Republican ranting about sticking to the "true" Constitution. <insert smile here.>

Second, you snipped out my alternative calculation, with a 15,000 LY galaxy, turning out to 7 million C.

As I said the last time on the subject yes it is quite small but thats fine for a soft science-fantasy popcorn universe with magic samuris and space cowboys. Quite simply it can only be overruled by equally valid evidence from the universe in question which you have not provided.

If you are going to pull this cop-out, and deny the application of scientific analysis to the debate, please do not bother responding to me.

It's incredibly disingenuous of you to handwave a very glaring flaw in your theory on the basis of scientific fact and math not being important to calculations. Do you realize that "parsec" is a scientific term, based on the scientific analysis of the speed that light travels in a vacuum, which is unto itself a scientific concept as well? That's Selective Application to you.

How about your essentially building quite possibly thousand per world shield and reactors comparable to very large starships,[ which are not exactly rolling off the assembly line,

Which is bullshit. If they can build a Death Star, they can easily build kilometer long starships.

or that almost no one it appears has one?

Except that various planets do have one, and a makeshift base has a theater shield.

22nd century-24th 11% of the galaxy charted

24th century plus one year 13% of the galaxy charted.

simple enough?

So then it will take five decades to chart out the Star Wars galaxy? Brilliant! Or are you just going to assume that this rapidly accelerating rate is due purely to technological advances rather than a larger established industry and resources, and that it will continue unabated?

Through whatever cultural contact we have between the alliance and the federation,

You are oversimplifying. You need elaboration.

by simply driving at a million c until you reach a planet,

...

Oh my god. Good luck with this one. You know, searching for a few million planets out of hundreds of billions? Your crew will all be dead of old age.

No because I consider bulkcruisers, gunships, strikecrafts and the like small potatoes.

Oh, so it's not because you "say so". It's because you "consider" them! This is much better.

Unlikely to be able to spring and intercept a ship only interested in dropping in and firing off a missile.

Works both ways if I mass BDZ your planets, doesn't it?

Now if you have evidence your average world has its own task force of Star Destroyers that might be worth reconsidering my statement.

I don't need star destroyers. I just need basic defenses. Even LAAT gunships can shoot down hallfire missiles in the RotS novelization.

the blanket assumption you simply have a massive enough force in order to both effectivly defend holdings and launch a major offensive into enemy territory.

Sure I do, Tyler. Observe my battle station, which mathematically speaking, requires the metal, manpower, lighting, life support, oxygen and resources of dozens of billions of massive imperial star destroyers.

In detail garrison one hundred thousand worlds with a ship apiece and you have reduced your total force by one hundred thousand.

Fortunately sir, I actually have one million star systems and as much as sixty million inhabited planets, and one hundred thousand ships is a drop in the bucket for me.

Your second assumption is that the enemy lacks insufficent numbers "to do both". That may or may not be true but I find your reasoning to reach this conclusion quite flawed. As should not need to be stated we face an enemy which is not interested in picking stand up fights, of conquest only our destruction. A single ship may posion tens of worlds before it needs resupply. A mere thousand could strike down tens of thousands of worlds in but the lenght it takes them to reach their targets rendering traditional assumptions of relatively "bulky" and large battlegroups required by OOB to take star systems inaccurate and counter-intuative.

And yet I can much easier to the same to him, with more ships, against less planets, so this is MAD, only that the MAD is completely one sided, and not mutual at all.

The other item you fail to account for besides your twin assumptions is the divergence factor of vessel strenght of our navy and theirs. Simply put there is a larger gulf between a systems patrol ship and a Imperial Star Destroyer than there is between their Galaxy class and their retrofitted Miranda class. Which can make our fleet advantage decpetivly larger than it truly is.

ROFLAMO! For example, the experiment in Slave Ship by a third party team of scientists, coming along before Saxton was known by anyone here, blatantly measures our standard laser cannons to yield gigatons.

AThat doesn't matter, through the installation of the nonmobile ion cannon as well as reactor and shield generator does suggest the settling down of roots, what is important is the investment of resources the Rebels were willing to spend. Greater than Naboo was for instances and therefore while they may not the bleeding cutting edge nothing suggests the Rebel defense equipment was subpar.

What the fuck? Your evidence that the shield generator was a massive undertaking...is that it indicates a "settling down of roots?

Do you realize that all of my planets have "settled down" their roots long ago? So if a Rebel base barely a few months old has a theater shield, why can not a 10,000 year old planetary nation have a planetary shield?

If we were talking of the same scale, one planet, maybe. Even that is one known shield generator vs however many you need to fully shield a planet, but you are talking about trying to retrofit as many planets as possible.

Bullshit. The entire Rebel base and its surroundings was perhaps a few dozen kilometers out of an entire planet. My planets span...well, much of the planet. So if a few dozen kilometers warrant a theater shield, you can do the math here.

And no one comments on it? Even when fiery debris raining down murdering civilians?

Obviously (to them), a separatist agent sabotaged the shields. In fact, that's probably precisely what happened. Nobody would suspect that it was the Supreme Chancellor that let the agent do this.

The defenses are at the installation, the settlement, not the ashy planet's atmosphere.

Through in case your curious Anakin posseses the deactivation code which allowed him to land at it, as opposed to needing it to enter its atmosphere.

You do realize that Mustafar was a hiding ground, and that it was never intended to withstand an invasion or attack, right?

NNot really. My ship is dropping out deliberatly to attack the planet, that is only reason why they are going there. There is no simiularity between them and the guys stationed on planet who'd have to decide if that blip is a freighter dropping out of hyperspace or an enemy warship.

No. I meant that my ships can just as easily drop out of hyperspace, barrage your planets with nuclear missiles, turbolasers and bio-weapons, and then drop out.

First I would demand evidence of such automation in Star Wars.

Sure. The RotS novelization states that droid processing power is roughly C. So they can easily react quickly enough.

And? It got wiped out by the little rock and its sisterships had suffered damage.

And I already explained to you that its shields were inert. I also would like to point out that, by your hyperdrive calculations, the fleet was waiting in the belt for years for the bounty hunters to assemble from various corners of the Outer Rim.

t jumps to lightspeed. Which as a FTL drive is faster than the speed of light and is not proof the MF can accelerate or decelerate at relativistic speeds with its sublight drive.

Nope, look carefully. The ships always are seen accelerating to ridiculous speeds before they actually go into hyperspace. Because they clearly were not FTL; and not only would they be invisible to the eye in hyperspace, but the fact that they move faster than light means that we wouldn't be able to see them at all.

Have the "Sabers" dropped out of hyperspace? Or are we talking about the relief ships which are lumbering up from Talfaglio?
I don't see anything to suggest Danni engaged hyperdrive in this. And I have superior canon showing ships can't accelerate like this on sublight.
Again I'm not seeing hyperdrive being employed here.

As I made clear, I cannot find the context, so I'll drop that piece of evidence for now.

Mind you, the fact that these ships can accelerate to relativistic speeds is an argument unto itself.

Oh, and the comic:

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/given/rb/isdcrash.jpg

And all I have to do is point to ANH and the trench run, with the X-wings going as fast as possible, to disprove "near-relativisitc speeds".

Except that they are witnessed passing half of Yavin IV in six seconds, so it does precisely the opposite.

Unless you scale up the reactor to go with your larger shield you will have a weaker shield. And the larger area you cover the far more powerful you have to keep your reactor just to stay the same.

No. A larger reactor will scale up cubically; the shield area scales by a power of two.

Again, building one million planetary reactors only amounts to a fraction of a fraction of the resources needed to construct a Death Star.

When your an evil empire with all of space to build? No. It isn't like you can actually check some budget and just notice stuff is being earmarked for the DS project.

Not when you are giving the full support of said industrial base. When said industrial base can still manufacture all your parts leaving you only the job of assembling. Not when you have a freaking Sanctuary pipeline set up to support you. The Death Star projects were major, fully supported projects by the Empire. There is no getting around this.

...

Really, this is hilarious. In your world, constructing a skyscraper on the moon is just as simple as constructing one in the middle of the United States, so long as the budget is the same.

Oh, and if this is true, I can just build my Death Star in the middle of dark space. After all, it's just as simple to build as if it were next to Coruscant, right? You'll never find me now!

Yes it was a trap. That doesn't make the spies they used any less real. The point is it was believable intel not that they just found a note saying where to go.

Yeah, they leaked believable intel. You take this as evidence that the Federation can actually find said intel without having it leaked to them, just because you say so.

Except your incredious "but space is big" is an irrevelent statement.

Because you say so.

Very select few planets have them. So for all intents and puroses they don't exist.

Too bad that those "select few planets" are the most important ones, what part of this is difficult to understand?

And here we are talking about building a smaller DS1 which may or may not be capable of the "upgrades" of the DS2.

What the fuck are you talking about? The second Death Star eliminated shield gaps due to superior engineering. Are you suggesting that larger shields are less likely to have gaps in them now?

Like...seriously? I honestly cannot believe if any of this shit is for real.

WThose "rudimentary shields" can't stop snubfighters or therefore torpedoes.

1. This was a design flaw. It was eliminated.

2. Torpedos will do jack and shit to a moon.

3. The Death Star caught the Falcon in a tractor beam from thousands of kilometers away. It has so many turbolaser emplacements that it could literally fire blindly and hit any torpedos you send.

That armor can be pierced and damaged, to the extent crewmembers are being shaken inside the ship, by laser canons best measured in gigajoules.

Except that said laser cannons rate far more, based on the very same scene. 60 GJ's was based on the assumption that only one cubic meter of standard iron was vaporized.

Torpedoes are tens if not hundreds of Petajoules. The outer armor will not resiest that and therefore those cannons won't survive. Once they've been cleared out you can take your time drilling down to the reactor.

Oh, so you "take your time" drilling down to the reactor, while I take my ten seconds to blow up your planet?

The movie disagrees with you.

Bullshit. The X wings didn't "take their time drilling down to the reactor", a Force sensitive pilot made a one in a million shot, as his proton torpedo made a 20,000 G turn.

Which is what I pointed out when I posted that little snipet the first time. But it has no basis on the argument that being secret and in the outer rim are proof that it is a miniscule or under supplied part of the Imperial budget.

And that isn't a response.

No.

The Empire focusing to the max to fininsh that only got about halfway done in years. Or built the smaller DS1 in about 20 years, you know the one worth about a score sector groups only?

^So the second Death Star was incredibly costly, yet the smaller DS1 is suddenly only a "score" of sector groups now? You aren't only implicitly conceding a 900 km Death Star II; you're implying a fucking 2000 km Death Star II, to go from "a score of sector groups" to "focusing to the MAX!!! the entire imperial budget!"

No you didn't. No where have you addressed the DSI only taking up the resources for a score of Sector Groups, about 480 Star Destroyers and tens of thousands of lesser ships plus the ground forces. A drop in the bucket, even assuming you could maintain that annually it doesn't amount to anywhere near what you talk about.

So the Alliance can easily make another Death Star I, both due to hindsight/improved engineering and the fact that it was only a drop in the bucket anyhow.

No. Canon is paramount.

C canon is paramount to logic and math?

Oh god...

Besides, I'll give you your own medicine and dismiss your statement on the basis of the films contradicting it. We see the Death Star in G canon. We can scale the first one to 160 kilometers; and we can judge that it is spherical. The amount of metal needed to construct it would be many billions of times more than a star destroyer. Done.

This would be a case of exageration to make a point but the DS falls closer to what I typed than what you have been pushing. As demostrated by canon.

I "pushed" it with math and observation from the films. You pushed it with a ridiculous quote. Done.

But please, rationalize how one hundred frigates can possibly be as difficult to construct as the Death Star, when the resources needed for this would be billions of times less.

Also, the most that your point proves is that I can spam Death Star I's with as much ease as spamming one hundred frigates.

...and then you argue that the Death Star was a significant focus of the imperial budget

I have argued you have offered no proof it wasn't, arguing heavily that being secret and remote doesn't mean it was an insgnificant amount of resources.

Incorrect. Each sector group also possessed 2400 capital battle-ships and, as you say, 1600 support ships. So we have here 2.4 million warships and 1.6 million support ships, just in the sector groups alone, massively outnumbering your starfleet

You will read this:

Each Sector group can be expected to contain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers and another 1,600 combat starships.

It is 1600 combat ships total, plus Star Destroyers, which run from system patrol ships to dreadnaught heavy cruisers. I have no idea where you are getting your drivel but it has no bearing to the Sourcebook or Star Wars.
[/quote]

Ahem.

2,400 ships, 24 OF WHICH are star destroyers and ANOTHER 1,600 combat starships.

Reading comprehension.

I can trump that with my canon quote of there only being trillions in the Republic. G-canon as you already know. So we can toss your quote aside.

ROFL what? So the fact that there are 300 million people in the US means that we cannot possibly possess a standing army of 2 million?

Really, this is hilarious.

The personal vendatta of the Emperor with an unknown fleet over an unknown duration means virtually nothing.

Actually, it does. A single transport fleet is larger than the entire starfleet. That is certainly relevant.

Impressive but he appears to be having trouble maintaining it.

Yeah, but he's just cloaking himself here. Or maybe even just his weapons. Not a 1600 kilometer long ship. And I might note that Luke is an incredibly quick learner; when he first generated a lifelike copy of the Millennium Falcon through the Force, he nearly died and for a moment, looked like Palpatine. But the next time, he did it without any apparent effort.

Because he wanted to?

...and you are trying to argue against incompetence now?

Doesn't explain how he actually defeated the entire ship's crew.

Or how warp cores are so instable that hitting it with a phaser causes the whole ship to explode. On an extra note, the ship's explosion generated halo ring special effects. Clearly, warp core isn't DET!!!FDSFSD

No the time is seperate from a strictly cost issue. And as the G-canon shows, as you C-canon shows, as everything shows the deathstars can't be built quickly. That they take years to build.

No, they take years to build in the outer rim.

You can only travel at a worthwhile speed, as demostrated by T-canon, in a hyperspace lane. To have lanes you must chart them. Ergo no charts no lanes no advance.

Worthwhile? Who cares? You can't catch or detect me in hyperspace; even if it takes six months, you are still screwed.

1. I have proven my slipstream is heavily faster than your hyperdrive with highest canon. If you refuse to accept this you will be reported.

No, you have claimed this. Your intolerance for differing theories is astounding.

What's more, your hyperdrive statistics imply that the SW galaxy is a black hole. Ergo, you are wrong.

2. I don't need as many ships as you do to do what I need to do

Because you say so?

3. you have more planets to defend

And I can afford more to lose.

4. almost none of your worlds have shields.

Incorrect. A makeshift Rebel base covering 0.000000001% of a planet can set up a theater shield.

No. It just destroys your actual domain.

By have ships far superior to their basic ship offsetting numbers,

First, this is completely false. Second, the sheer disparity in numbers just hasn't sunken in yet. I don't care if your starships were superior, which they are not; I have more ships than you have ammunition to fire.

by being actually faster and by not fighting said ships but "nuking" the worlds they are supposed to defend.

So can I. And guess what? I have more ships to nuke less planets.

Just a reminder I'm not trying to conqure you. I'm wiping you out.

And how do you stop me from unleashing the Death Star on Earth? I simply construct it inside Coruscant's planetary shield; you can't hurt me, and you can't stop me.

Hyperdrive is slower as demostrated by G-canon.

The SW galaxy is not 100 light years long, as demonstrated by science, G canon and common sense. 100 light years is not a "modest sized" galaxy.

Except the death star equals a score of sector groups as demostrated with canon. You will accept this, or provide a counter proof in canon, or you will be reported.

Except that the Death Star equals hundreds of billions of star destroyers, as demonstrated based on observations from G canon. See how I can parrot your argument?

The problem is that all of the explicit C canon examples I present; the most blatant being the "trillions of crew" statement, you feel the ability to dismiss with a wave of your hand and "well, you can't have trillions of citizens while having trillions of crew...like, the United States...". Yet when you present a C canon statement yourself, you admit that it makes no logical sense in the slightest, but still hold onto it as though it were gospel.

I bet that if Traviss made a book saying that durasteel were weaker than rubber, you would hav-oh, wait, she already did that, didn't she? Should we accept everything we read in secondary canon as fact, when it makes No Fucking Sense?

It is not vague. It flat out states they poured the resources of a score of sector groups. And it is canon. Absolute, irrefutiable except by another canon source. So to take your example if it is stated in the universe they can build dyson spheres but can't build a million empire state buildings that is what we have to deal with. So quit trying to jury-rig some calc off on the margine and actually work with the universe you have.

Sure. The Death Star, based on simple scaling and observation, would require the metal of billions of star destroyers. You also don't understand how impossibly difficult it would be to construct a moon sized battle station and not have it fall apart immediately.

And if you focus on building warships only you can add those sector groups back to the total but your not cracking huge numbers.

Sure I am. I can prove this, through math, and basic economics.

Simple. Computer Corelli system. Engage. Conversly find Earth.

Wait, since when will I keep Centerpoint Station in the Corelli system?

1. I could strap boosters to it that accelerate it to relativistic speeds (Shadows of Mindor, Star by Star), and shoot it into dark space.

2. I could attach a hyperdrive to it, given that the massively larger Death Star had one.

Besides, you have to actually get to Centerpoint. I just have to push a button.

And killing Earth doesn't magicly make my fleet vanish.

No, but killing all of your planets; which I can do within weeks, will make the Federation cease to exist.

Are we talking about center point or the GA and Federation just overall? Because as it stands now discounting center point its more akin to the Modern US bombing WW2 American to smitherens with a handful of B-52s while you gloat and brag about having a lot of sherman tanks.

Sherman tanks that have "continent destroying hellhounds" on their cruisers, and that can accelerate to relativistic speeds in a fraction of a millisecond in the jump to lightspeed?

Nah.

It takes me in the range of three hours to cut through your posts, retrieve evidence etc. So don't cry me any rivers.

Pathetic. Pot, kettle, black. I was apologizing for any snipped comments or dumbed down language, and your response is to brag about spending three hours to respond.



-------



In conclusion, it seems as though the problem between your methodology and mine is that you place a significantly lower emphasis on scientific, logical and mathematical analysis. Rather, you only focus on "canon".

For example; when I present to you the fact that the Death Star alone masses many hundreds of billions of star destroyers, you dismiss the idea with the fact that a C canon source states that it merely equals a "score" of sector groups (and presume "score" to mean "a few".) Instead of either rationalizing this quote to make sense or ignoring it on the accounts of being ridiculous, you take it as indisputable proof that the Death Star really only needs the resources of one hundred frigates that are really one hundred billion times smaller than it is.



Or, and this one is ridiculous; you admit that your own calculations would implicate that the SW galaxy is only 100 light years in length. In addition to blatantly violating both the Essential Atlas's figure and the description of the galaxy as "modest sized", the length implied here is impossible.

You see, when a theory is at odds with concrete Scientific facts or logic, the academic response should be to revise or discard the theory. But no; your response is not to admit that the fault is in your subjective calculations, but in the laws of physics themselves, and that the obvious solution is to assume that our physics don't apply in Star Wars!

[but of course, you will still throw around energy units, scientific calculations and scientific terms to your heart's content].

[sonofccn]

Your video...doesn't work anymore.

It did when I presented it to you originally when you should have watched it. But fine once again here ships goes into slipstream 13:13 drops out 13:43 and at 40:01 we learn they traveled more than fifteen light years.

You are going to have to provide me a video clip here.

Again I did and it worked when I showed it to you. But once again here At 0:26 ship is flying up into the sky and at 5:34 it has arrived at the system. So five minutes is the absolute minimum and doesn't take into account what actually has to occur in between, namely calling the senate togather and Jar-Jar giving his crowd pleasing speech.

And I have explained to you that even the lowest possible figures for the SW galaxy still give it enormous speeds above one million C.

Again with this? Unless you have a G-canon size none of your estimates can overrule my example.

1. In RotJ, Luke surrenders himself on Endor. Then, in the novelization describes the Rebel fleet hanging "hundreds" of light years away from Endor. Luke is taken up to the Death Star to the Emperor's throne room, and the Rebel fleet arrives a minute or two after. Even if it took Vader twenty minutes to bring Luke to the Emperor, and even if "hundreds" of light years means two hundred light years, the Rebel fleet had to have moved at speeds of around 5.2 million C. [If you bring up darkstar's alternate theory, that it took the the imperials a day to bring the Rebels from inside the very tiny base to right outside, I will laugh.]

here starting @ roughly 2:00 with the fleet jump roughly a minute later. And you may laugh all you want that does not prove your assumption. In a nutshell Luke is a nonissue, we don't see his transit or what he does for the duration until he arrives at the throne room and once there really justs waits for the rebel fleet without anything suggesting what the passage of time is.

On the other hand Han and co have to stealthily manuver to the otherside of the ridge while we know patrols are out, arrange the ambush for the remaining trooper after the others go on a wild bantha chase, proceed into a facility which we are given no basis onto its size then spend an indeterminate amount of time inside before being captured. meanwhile concurent with the stormtroopers going into the shield facility to capture the rebels we have an Ewok run off to go to rally his people for the big ambush. As well it appears to be a morning in the ridge scene @ 2:15ish compared to the more late afternoonish look at 13:00 or so.

So running with six hours for the entire thing is not particuarly unreasonable and gives time for the actual events and such to transpire. So a range from 292000c if we go with 200 light years to 1314000c if we run with 900 lightyears. And since this is all G-canon I will even conced presidence of this example over my example. After all Padme's vessel may not be built for speed.

Vader goes to Mustafar to slaughter the remaining seperatists [according to you, this alone would have taken several months or years]. Padme learns of Anakin's fall, and travels to Mustafar, right after Anakin slaughters said seperatists and goes outside to pose dramatically.

No distance given. And you can't override G-canon speeds with a C-canon distance. When in conflict C-canon losses.

3. Vader assembles various bounty hunters from across the galaxy to meet him in the asteroid belt. By your calculations, the fleet waited in the belt for several years.

And I'm sure the various bounty hunters all hail across a wide spectrum of the galaxy. That doesn't mean they literaly traversed it but if they did that simply shrinks your galaxy. If G-canon say they couldn't have crossed the C-canon distance in that time then the distance is wrong.

Irrelevant. It has been defined in C canon. This is enough. Case closed.

No it isn't when it comes into conflict with G-canon.

You have three variables here; speed, time and distance. The time is a given. The distance should be a given, but you clearly think otherwise

It is not given in G-canon unless I missed it. If I did please provide me the quote, link, clip of it and I will conced that issue.

The speed is your own theory

The speed is results of analysis of G-canon. As same as measuring the size of the Death Star or calculating the speed of an X-wing as it passes a statonary object. It is the same as stating Boba Fett collasped into the Saarlac's mouth. It is based on the facts of the universe and can be observed and proved or disproved based upon it. Your issue is you keep bringing up a lower tier piece of evidence which loses automaticly in any conflict.

Fine then. If you want to play "let's dismiss examples we don't like because they are outliers!",

No I'm dismissing it on not making sense internally with the logic of the internal universe. There is no reason for Dooku to limp up out of sight, zoom off at super speed and then slow down again just when we catch up with him.

Simply disagreeing with a calcuation which doesn't hinder internal logic is not grounds to dismiss it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvc70ptopqw

2:42 onwards.

Is this a "nonsensical outlier" as well now?

No. And thank you for providing the clip. Now then you merely need to determin the size of yavin prime, distance of X-wings from it and calculate exactly how fast their moving.

Coming from Foamy, who doesn't even subscribe to Saxton calcs:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=159

Don't have an SBC account. You'll have to post the revelant data.

First, there is no need to capitalize "true", or even if use the word. Your diction makes you sound like a Republican ranting about sticking to the "true" Constitution. <insert smile here.>

I'm a conservative and I am deeply concerned with abiding by the Constitution. So there. ;)

Second, you snipped out my alternative calculation, with a 15,000 LY galaxy, turning out to 7 million C.

Which isn't even C-canon. And again loses to actual canon material.

If you are going to pull this cop-out, and deny the application of scientific analysis to the debate, please do not bother responding to me.

I'm adhereing to the evidence as any good scientist would.

It's incredibly disingenuous of you to handwave a very glaring flaw in your theory on the basis of scientific fact and math not being important to calculations.

I have at not point disavowed using science as a tool to help as calculate stuff. What you want to do is throw out canon material because it isn't "realistic". Yet somehow hyperdrives, the force, aliens, turbolasers and everything else which isn't anymore "realistic" you don't seem to have issue with. Quite selective.

Except that various planets do have one, and a makeshift base has a theater shield.

Some planets do but not all and an important rebel base had a theater shield for defense.

So then it will take five decades to chart out the Star Wars galaxy? Brilliant! Or are you just going to assume that this rapidly accelerating rate is due purely to technological advances rather than a larger established industry and resources, and that it will continue unabated?

I'm assuming nothing. They have charted at least 13 percent of their galaxy and they did a collosal jump in a single year. If you want to assume they can't maintain that speed or continue to accelerate it would fall to you to provide evidence.

You are oversimplifying. You need elaboration.

No I don't. For there to be a war there must be contact between the Federation and the Alliance, this contact must have people and therefore my spies can go to work doing spy things.

Oh my god. Good luck with this one. You know, searching for a few million planets out of hundreds of billions? Your crew will all be dead of old age.

Sensors are wonderful things.

Oh, so it's not because you "say so". It's because you "consider" them! This is much better.

Yes. It would be like throwing them against a Star Destroyer, virtually nil they will hinder the ship in question before it fires even if they could scramble and intercept it.

Works both ways if I mass BDZ your planets, doesn't it?

Not quite. You have to "burn" my world by blasting it with turbolasers. The world may or may not have defenses, ground based photon torpedoes, phaser banks, theater shields or planetary shields all of which will make "destroying" it more time consuming. Furthermore ships may or may not come to the planet's aid which complicates things even more.

I don't need star destroyers. I just need basic defenses. Even LAAT gunships can shoot down hallfire missiles in the RotS novelization.

No. Basic will not cut it. Basic defenses are not rated to handle this problem.

[Engineering]

LAFORGE: Torpedoes now entering the stellar core.
TIMICIN: Their shields are holding. Guidance systems normal.
LAFORGE: Ignition sequence, six seconds

Torps are shielded and can be flung into the stellar core of a star. LAATs won't shoot them down. Your warships won't be able to shoot them down.

Sure I do, Tyler. Observe my battle station, which mathematically speaking, requires the metal, manpower, lighting, life support, oxygen and resources of dozens of billions of massive imperial star destroyers.

.
.
.
Fortunately sir, I actually have one million star systems and as much as sixty million inhabited planets, and one hundred thousand ships is a drop in the bucket for me.

.
.
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And yet I can much easier to the same to him, with more ships, against less planets, so this is MAD, only that the MAD is completely one sided, and not mutual at all.
.
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ROFLAMO! For example, the experiment in Slave Ship by a third party team of scientists, coming along before Saxton was known by anyone here, blatantly measures our standard laser cannons to yield gigatons.

I would have hoped you were capable of listening to reason. But no matter.

Firstly you are suffering from a grevious miscalculation in availlable resources. The glorious Imperial Navy never exceeded some four to six million total crafts( plus indeterminate auxilleries of "client races") and it was one of the greatest and most powerful star forces ever assembled. A simple check through Galactic history would also have confirmed this for you. From the admitedly talented, for a Xeno breed, Thrawn's forces being pivotely boosted by the gaining of nigh 200 dreadnaught heavy cruisers to the desperate battle for Coruscant during the extragalactic threat of the Vong possesing merely thousands of warships. *Spit* Pathetic Rebels, the Emperor would have culled a dozen sector groups before he allowing such a disgrace. Furthermore a simple check of resource allotment would have shown you the first Deathstar was only given enough to form a score of sector groups

Secondly you overestimate your holdings. The glorious Empire held supreme over a million worlds, from the dogabah system to the fondor system each is built around a prinicpal world with only subuded deviation. Fondor has a colonized moon for instances as well the Coruscant system has a few minor additional holdings besides Imperial Center itself.

The combination of these excesses overestimates of your strenghts blinds you to the dangers of the situation and posses you with a zealious drive more becoming of a South Colonial then a true officer of the Galactic Empire. With reckless abandon you plan the fortification of planets but placing ten ships apiece along the old one hundred thousand worlds of the decadent Old Republicwhich likely would be inadequate due to the threat we face you will have shrunk your force by some one-sixth of its total amount. Garrison all the worlds and you will have reduced these mighty Star Fleets to nothing. Fleets which are required to maintain the shipping lanes which are the lifeblood to worlds such as Imperial Center.

Thirdly you did not grasp my meaning of my last point. Through gigaton laser canons is nonsensical with only as little as 19 years ago a turbolaser cannon could scarcely vaporize a small town. Some one to two megatons of explosive force. But I digress, the thrust of my argument was the difference of powere between the vessels in our fleet compared to the Federation. Three hundred system patrol crafts won't equal a single Imperial Star Destroyer but conversely three hundred of their weakest warships, say one of their mirandas, would equal and exceed their strongest warship. A sombering tempering to our mighty Star Fleets numbers.
-Subcommander Tyler

What the fuck? Your evidence that the shield generator was a massive undertaking...is that it indicates a "settling down of roots?

I'm saying installing installing things like the ion cannon and shields and the required generator isn't something indictative for an adhoc base your plan on leaving in a day or so.

Do you realize that all of my planets have "settled down" their roots long ago? So if a Rebel base barely a few months old has a theater shield, why can not a 10,000 year old planetary nation have a planetary shield?

Do not be obtuse. You blathered that the base was temporary. I was pointing out the Rebels seemed to have settled down quite a bit for that to be the case.

Bullshit. The entire Rebel base and its surroundings was perhaps a few dozen kilometers out of an entire planet

Yes one generator. To shield a planet you'll need many more, hundreds or thousands if they are all the same size of the Hoth one.

with planetary shields able to hold of all but the most massive turbolaser and proton torpedo bombardment... only way to subdue a mordern world was to put a fast-moving ground force down at the edges and send them overland to destroy the shield generators

Obviously (to them), a separatist agent sabotaged the shields. In fact, that's probably precisely what happened. Nobody would suspect that it was the Supreme Chancellor that let the agent do this.

And you would comment on this. On how the Seppies were able to capture the Chancellor, or death and destruction something. Instead nothing.

You do realize that Mustafar was a hiding ground, and that it was never intended to withstand an invasion or attack, right?

Lets read this again:

""Utapau," Grievous said slowly, as though explaining to a child, "is a hostile planet under military occupation. It was never intended to be more than a stopgap, while the defenses of the base on Mustafar were completed. Now that they are, Mustafar is the most secure planet in the galaxy. The stronghold prepared for you can withstand the entire Republic Navy.""It should," Gunray muttered. "Construction nearly bankrupted the Trade Federation! [...]
"The base is secure. It can stand against a thousand Jedi. Ten thousand.

The entire fething Republic navy, no expense spared and it has no planetary shields.

And I'm calling its quiets for this post. Nothing more needs to be said.

[sonofccn]

Mind you both seem to be forgetting that the allied forces have in fact occupied several Fed protectorates..

Well I did *Sheepish grin* through Tyler wishes to state that he didn't.

meaning they have resources committed in the unknown regions..resources the Federation needs to boot them out of that territory and the allies need to fight to hold that territory.

Well that muddies things however what with the situation as it is, the likelyhood that I will only recieve a fraction of Starfleet's total strenght as well as the industrial might of the GA an attritional war will likely favor my enemies. I'm afraid except for a few key planets my assets in the Unknown Regions must be sacrificed, gutted of anything useful like phaser arrays or shield generators to reinforce those select few I'll make my stand on. Ships I'll split between raiding Alliance worlds, and hopefully drawing ships out of the Unknown Regions, and keeping them on the defensive in mobile formation overseeing multiple worlds per "sector" allowing them to defend each at their own preogative. I'll also have to draw up OOBs for how these "sectors" can come to the aid of each other in the face of a sufficent crisis but hopefully I can keep my fleets fleet footed enough and flexible enough to parry my opponet's "saber thrusts".

[sonofccn]

While I do feel I made my case sufficently clear in this thread and see no further need to argue with SWST this I fear is such a collosal and quite possibly deliberate misinterpetation I feel it deserves some comment.

It is 1600 combat ships total, plus Star Destroyers, which run from system patrol ships to dreadnaught heavy cruisers. I have no idea where you are getting your drivel but it has no bearing to the Sourcebook or Star Wars.

Ahem.

2,400 ships, 24 OF WHICH are star destroyers and ANOTHER 1,600 combat starships.

Reading comprehension.

Each Sector group can be expected to contain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers and another 1,600 combat starships.

It is perfectly clear the book is stating a sector contains at least two thousand-four hundred ships period. You may notice it doesn't say combat ships or transport ships but ships indicating ships in general. Then there is a comma indicating a break and a new thought which explains of that 2,400 24 are Star Destroyers and 1,600 are combat starships leaving you 800 or so support ships. That is the only way to read that sentence. Your way requires the comma be removed along with "of which",directing that the star destroyers are part of the 2,400 stated in the previous clause, or the addition of a comma seperating the star destroyers from the 1600 combat ships for it to make sense.

[Admiral Breetai]

you don't face invasion at home that is not a possibility for the foreseeable future

so maybe one massive conventional assault on occupied territories to do as much damage to their forces as possible and then continue with your raids?

[General Donner]

Well for what its worth wookieepedia suggests that is the DS1 in ROTS and the prototype was created after to work out the kinks encountered in trying to build the DS1.

They don't seem to cite any source for that, though. (The footnote for the paragraph refers to a comic I know well enough, and it concerns the Falken guy alone, not the prototype.) Which doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong, but it does mean there's no evidence for the claim; as with fan wikis in general, there's quite a bit of fan speculation included in various Wookiee articles.

I know Lucas supposedly said on some occasion it was the same Death Star as the SW4 one, but then I don't really consider his offhand comments worth all that much in terms of describing the fictional universe. Especially given how he's prone to change his mind about it every other month or so.



On another, wholly unrelated note: What's the argument between you and SWST over the size of the SW galaxy? I tried to follow it, but got confused picking my way back through your megaposts. I'd thus appreciate a summary, if that's not too much of a bother.

The EU is fairly unambiguous in describing the galaxy as similar to Milky Way in scope, with some hundreds of billions of stars in it. I don't think, offhand, that there's any movie-level evidence that strongly militates against that.

[Praeothmin]

Actually, General Donner, the ANH hope novelization states the SW Galaxy as a "Modest-sized" one, which, since our Milky Way Galaxy is large, precludes them being the same size...
Plus, the RotJ novel also states Endor and Sullust being a "few hundred LY apart"...
Since all the maps, without exception, places them at about 1/5th galaxy length apart, then this also precludes a large SW Galaxy...

We have many threads on this very subject you may peruse...

[sonofccn]

They don't seem to cite any source for that, though. (The footnote for the paragraph refers to a comic I know well enough, and it concerns the Falken guy alone, not the prototype.) Which doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong, but it does mean there's no evidence for the claim; as with fan wikis in general, there's quite a bit of fan speculation included in various Wookiee articles.

Oh agreed wikis are at best a very mixed bag.

I know Lucas supposedly said on some occasion it was the same Death Star as the SW4 one, but then I don't really consider his offhand comments worth all that much in terms of describing the fictional universe. Especially given how he's prone to change his mind about it every other month or so.

You lie! It was always part of Lucas's vision that ANH be about Jar-Jar's wacky adventures. He just didn't have the technology to truly bring his vision to life before. :)

On another, wholly unrelated note: What's the argument between you and SWST over the size of the SW galaxy? I tried to follow it, but got confused picking my way back through your megaposts. I'd thus appreciate a summary, if that's not too much of a bother.

Well in part me simply being argumenative and cantankerous, but what else is new, but in a nutshell I caclulated Padme's speed in AOTC assuming five minutes to cross "less than a parsec". SWST responded that such speed it would be impossible for Darth Maul to travel from Coruscant to Tatoonine in the half day or so it took in the movies and I, admittedly irritated with him, said his lower tier source for the galaxy size couldn't overrule my G-canon speed and therefore the distance was not as great and that the galaxy as a whole was smaller. Then as ususal we just repeated our stance to the other and said that they are wronged. Not my proudest moment, through regretably far from my worst, but what are ya going to do?

[sonofccn]

you don't face invasion at home that is not a possibility for the foreseeable future

Well even discounting that threat, and try explaining that to the politicians back home, Starfleet does have comitments "homeside" it can't completely abandon. From humanitarian missions, anti-piracy to the cylical threat of the Romulans, possibly the Dominion to the "small affairs" such as the Cardassians and Tholians the entire force of Star Fleet could not be shifted to the Alliance galaxy for extended durations.

so maybe one massive conventional assault on occupied territories to do as much damage to their forces as possible and then continue with your raids?

Well the likely pressure situations I am going to find myself will force me to act despite my wishes but a direct head on strike, as opposed to "nibbling" along the edges, risks them encircling and overwhelming my forces with superior numbers. Which is not to say an conventional assault is out of the question but that I must choose it with great care.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Really?

Again I did and it worked when I showed it to you. But once again here At 0:26 ship is flying up into the sky and at 5:34 it has arrived at the system. So five minutes is the absolute minimum and doesn't take into account what actually has to occur in between, namely calling the senate togather and Jar-Jar giving his crowd pleasing speech.

1. There is no scale as to how much time transpires between the ship shooting off into the sky and jumping to hyperspace. I was under the impression that they were shown actually jumping; good thing I asked for a link.
2. The ship is not shown actually jumping out of hyperspace, and we have no idea how long it has been flying in realspace.
3. It is interesting how you completely ignore the observation that the ship passes the rings of Geonosis in a matter of seconds, despite being around a tenth of the size of the entire planet, and then rapidly decelerated to subsonic speeds within a second.

Again with this? Unless you have a G-canon size none of your estimates can overrule my example.

And I have already explained to you that even the minimum value for the size of a “modest sized” spiral galaxy would yield values far higher than your own!

here starting @ roughly 2:00 with the fleet jump roughly a minute later. And you may laugh all you want that does not prove your assumption. In a nutshell Luke is a nonissue, we don't see his transit or what he does for the duration until he arrives at the throne room and once there really justs waits for the rebel fleet without anything suggesting what the passage of time is.

On the other hand Han and co have to stealthily manuver to the otherside of the ridge while we know patrols are out, arrange the ambush for the remaining trooper after the others go on a wild bantha chase, proceed into a facility which we are given no basis onto its size then spend an indeterminate amount of time inside before being captured. meanwhile concurent with the stormtroopers going into the shield facility to capture the rebels we have an Ewok run off to go to rally his people for the big ambush. As well it appears to be a morning in the ridge scene @ 2:15ish compared to the more late afternoonish look at 13:00 or so.

So running with six hours for the entire thing is not particuarly unreasonable and gives time for the actual events and such to transpire. So a range from 292000c if we go with 200 light years to 1314000c if we run with 900 lightyears. And since this is all G-canon I will even conced presidence of this example over my example. After all Padme's vessel may not be built for speed.

Wait. Are you suggesting that it takes Han Solo and his team six hours to reach a base clearly visible from the beginning? That Vader, who does not strike me as a guy to waste time of any sort, or to let live anyone who would waste time in his presence, waits for six hours to take Luke up to the Emperor?

And don’t handwave this by saying that the team is trying to be “stealthy”. I could literally turtle walk to the base faster than the team allegedly does. Obviously, days on Endor are significantly shorter than on Earth, and there is nothing to suggest that they happen to have a 24 hour night/day cycle.

No distance given. And you can't override G-canon speeds with a C-canon distance. When in conflict C-canon losses.

Once again, we run headlong into the problem that, even with the lowest possible size figures for the SW galaxy, the speeds implied here are massively faster than your own [which include numerous timeskips], and is using the exact same ship as well.

And I'm sure the various bounty hunters all hail across a wide spectrum of the galaxy. That doesn't mean they literaly traversed it but if they did that simply shrinks your galaxy. If G-canon say they couldn't have crossed the C-canon distance in that time then the distance is wrong.

No, here lies the issue with your reasoning. G canon doesn’t say that the C canon distance is wrong; your own interpretation of G canon, combined with various assumptions in regards to time lapses, tells G canon that it is wrong. Because 100 light years is not a “modest sized” galaxy; it isn’t even a galaxy at all.

The speed is results of analysis of G-canon.

That’s my entire point. Or do you think that all subjective analysis of G canon is irrefutable and perfect because of the magical G word?

No I'm dismissing it on not making sense internally with the logic of the internal universe.

Ah, yet 100 frigates equally a Death Star that, through simple observation from the films, is unfathomably larger and more resource intensive than a hundred hundred hundred hundred frigates makes sense internally with the universe?

And this is a secondary source, mind you.

There is no reason for Dooku to limp up out of sight, zoom off at super speed and then slow down again just when we catch up with him.

Too bad for you that the camera is completely arbitrary and imaginary, and that you clearly missed that Dooku’s assistant pushes the throttle before they accelerate.

Simply disagreeing with a calcuation which doesn't hinder internal logic is not grounds to dismiss it.

Are you kidding me? 200,000 C takes the internal logic of Star Wars, beats it, takes its money and leaves it for dead. It would mean that the events of TPM, for example, never transpire, because Anakin is a young adult by the time Obi Wan and Qui Gon ever land on Tatooine.

Additionally, your 100-light-year “theory” is in direct contradiction with the galaxy being “modest sized”, and with the Rebel fleet camping hundreds of light years in between Endor and, as I recall, Sullutust.

No. And thank you for providing the clip. Now then you merely need to determin the size of yavin prime, distance of X-wings from it and calculate exactly how fast their moving.

We could do that. But the exact size of Yavin, and the exact distance from the planet that the X wings are does little to change the conclusion one inevitably reaches.

Don't have an SBC account. You'll have to post the revelant data.

Okay:

BY FOAMY

1. Fisheye lenses do not introduce curves in their maximum FOV angles.
2. Recording medium is irrelevant. Once can produce fisheye images on any medium, from 35mm to 8mm to paper to .jpeg to incised stone tablets.
3. None of the Wars shots, and certainly not the ones I'm going to use, have any indication of fisheyeness; this is notable by the fact that, for example, the Death Star is still circular.
4. Because you are apparently unable to grasp simplicities, maybe the reason I'm establishing the proportions of the MF's cockpit is to use those proportions in a scaling? I mean, just maybe?
5. The actual length of MF is in fact irrelevant. The claimed length could be a quarter-millimetre and it would not alter the mathematics for the Death Star's size and closure rate at all.

Step 2:




Step 3:

Note that in the preceding pictures, neither Han nor Chewbacca is visible. We can use this fact coupled with the proportions of the MF's cockpit to establish the FOV.

So: From the cross-sections, the MF's centre window width can be found. Note that the actual size is irrelevant, since only the proportions matter in trig; however, converting into metres will provide a common reference standard for working between the pictures. So, from the exterior top view, it can be determined that 1260px = 35m; therefore, the cockpit has a total width of 120px*35m/1260px, or 3.3m.

Applying that to the exterior front view, it establishes that 105px = 2m; therefore, the front window is 25px*3.3m/105px wide, or 0.79m.

Since the front window occupies 300px/656px of the screen, or 0.457, it follows that at the distance of the front window from the camera, the field is 1.72m across.

Step 4.

Now we need to establish where Han and Chewie are. They are 84px*35m/2090px back from the leading window, or 1.4m. Note that in these shots Luke and Obi-Wan block all sightlines along the centre behind the pilot and co-pilot chairs. Therefore the camera must be in front of them. Simultaneously, the camera must be able to show the 1.72m figure noted above. This means I can take the arctangent of (1.72m/2)/1.4m to find the minimum FOV; the highest possible zoom, in fact. This works out to some 32°. I can also use 1.72m/2/1.4m, or 0.614, as a unitless number to avoid having to work with trigonometric fuctions in the next step.

Step 5:

With FOV angle established, we can now determine distance. The Death Star 1 is, per Wookiepedia, 160km in diametre. Therefore the field at the Death Star's distance is 160km/52px*656px, or 2018km across. Divide by 2, for 1014km, and divide again by 0.614, and we have distance: 1643km.

In the second shot, the same calculation:

160km/60px*656px = 1749km; divide by 2 = 874km; divide again by 0.614, for: 1424km. The shots are spaced 2s apart, so that's 110km/s.

I'll be damned. It seems I was wrong about the speed. This is, though, a high-end for the scene; any wider FOV will result in lower numbers.

I'm a conservative and I am deeply concerned with abiding by the Constitution. So there. ;)

This explains so much.

Which isn't even C-canon. And again loses to actual canon material.

Actually, actual canon material quantifies the galaxy as “modest sized”, and the Rebel fleet was camping “hundreds” of light years away from Endor, while still being within the galactic plane. Your figure would require a 100 light year galaxy.

I'm adhereing to the evidence as any good scientist would.

You see, this is the primary flaw in your methodology. You don’t understand that the best theory is the theory that best fits with known and observable facts; what you are doing here is to alter the facts to suit your theory.

Your theory implies a 100 light year galaxy. This is in grevious violation with the laws of physics; a set of laws that you use yourself to calculate events and feats. But, when known, undisputed facts call into question your subjective theory, your response is not to do what “any good scientist would”, and modify or dismiss your theory, but instead alter the facts to fit your own interpretation of events!

Your interpretation of a 100 light year “galaxy” (read: black hole) comes into conflict with primary canon documents quantifying the galaxy as being “modest sized”, and “hundreds of light years” being the distance between two random planets. Of course, these G canon statements do not make holes in your own theory; your theory makes holes in them, and they are obviously wrong!

Really, the arrogance and bias in your reasoning is very difficult to miss.

I have at not point disavowed using science as a tool to help as calculate stuff. What you want to do is throw out canon material because it isn't "realistic". Yet somehow hyperdrives, the force, aliens, turbolasers and everything else which isn't anymore "realistic" you don't seem to have issue with. Quite selective.

I actually am not throwing out canon material; I’m throwing out your own, subjective interpretation of canon material.

You do realize that you are the one who is throwing out canon material, by dismissing the “modest sized galaxy” statement, right?

No I don't. For there to be a war there must be contact between the Federation and the Alliance, this contact must have people and therefore my spies can go to work doing spy things.

So any nation can just casually unravel the secrets of any other nation, simply through cultural contact? Have you ever considered the logistical and practical chances of the Federation being able to infiltrate the highest ranks of the Alliance high command in any reasonable amount of time, or are you just assuming that things will work out magically?

Or have you considered how your agents will stand up against Jedi probing?

Sensors are wonderful things.

Do you think that sensors are magic?

Yes. It would be like throwing them against a Star Destroyer, virtually nil they will hinder the ship in question before it fires even if they could scramble and intercept it.

No, your response now to an unsupported statement is to back it up with more unsupported statements, that add up to a slightly more wordy version of your original unsupported statement.

Not quite. You have to "burn" my world by blasting it with turbolasers. The world may or may not have defenses, ground based photon torpedoes, phaser banks, theater shields or planetary shields all of which will make "destroying" it more time consuming. Furthermore ships may or may not come to the planet's aid which complicates things even more.

Wait, so suddenly, your planetary defenses are relevant, but mine aren’t? Just because you say so?

No. Basic will not cut it. Basic defenses are not rated to handle this problem.

[Engineering]

LAFORGE: Torpedoes now entering the stellar core.
TIMICIN: Their shields are holding. Guidance systems normal.
LAFORGE: Ignition sequence, six seconds

Torps are shielded and can be flung into the stellar core of a star. LAATs won't shoot them down. Your warships won't be able to shoot them down.

Incorrect. The Enterprise is unable to withstand a half a kiloton of electromagnetic radiation from a pulsar 20 million kilometers distant. Data says that they will last for 8 hours at that distance; around 2.3 terajoules, if the shields are 50 meters off the hull. [kudos to Qeveren from spacebattles]

Firstly you are suffering from a grevious miscalculation in availlable resources. The glorious Imperial Navy never exceeded some four to six million total crafts( plus indeterminate auxilleries of "client races") and it was one of the greatest and most powerful star forces ever assembled. A simple check through Galactic history would also have confirmed this for you. From the admitedly talented, for a Xeno breed, Thrawn's forces being pivotely boosted by the gaining of nigh 200 dreadnaught heavy cruisers to the desperate battle for Coruscant during the extragalactic threat of the Vong possesing merely thousands of warships. *Spit* Pathetic Rebels, the Emperor would have culled a dozen sector groups before he allowing such a disgrace. Furthermore a simple check of resource allotment would have shown you the first Deathstar was only given enough to form a score of sector groups

So Tyler; and this is perhaps the most important question I can ask you, what is the reason for the Death star only amounting to a score of sector groups? I understand that you dismiss the research paper Slave Ship on the grounds of being ludicrous, so what reason is there to believe imperial intelligence claiming that a 160 kilometer long battle station amounts to a score of sector groups, when from a scientific, mathematic, engineering and economical standpoint, it should amount to millions more than this?

Secondly you overestimate your holdings. The glorious Empire held supreme over a million worlds, from the dogabah system to the fondor system each is built around a prinicpal world with only subuded deviation. Fondor has a colonized moon for instances as well the Coruscant system has a few minor additional holdings besides Imperial Center itself.

First, I am severely questioning your obsession with the evil, homicidal empire. Second, you seem to believe that one million worlds is actually anything less than a guarantee of absolute victory over around a hundred member worlds and a thousand colonies.

Look at their own historical records for example; the North in the American Civil War had such an overwhelming advantage due to around a 2:1 industrial and population disparity, that many historians still argue that their victory was inevitable and unavoidable. Nazi Germany fell largely as a result of a 2:1 to 4:1 disparity in the 40’s after the United States joined the side of the Allies in WW2.

Here, we are looking at an industrial and economic disparity so unfathomably large, it makes a war between the United States and the Dominion Republic look fair in comparison.

The combination of these excesses overestimates of your strenghts blinds you to the dangers of the situation and posses you with a zealious drive more becoming of a South Colonial then a true officer of the Galactic Empire. With reckless abandon you plan the fortification of planets but placing ten ships apiece along the old one hundred thousand worlds of the decadent Old Republicwhich likely would be inadequate due to the threat we face you will have shrunk your force by some one-sixth of its total amount. Garrison all the worlds and you will have reduced these mighty Star Fleets to nothing. Fleets which are required to maintain the shipping lanes which are the lifeblood to worlds such as Imperial Center.

I am a member of the Galactic Alliance. You make various assumptions without any warrant, such as believing that fortification of each world with a planetary shield generator is a wild feat, when by your own admission, the construction of a moon sized battle station is only as difficult as building a score of sector groups.

Thirdly you did not grasp my meaning of my last point. Through gigaton laser canons is nonsensical with only as little as 19 years ago a turbolaser cannon could scarcely vaporize a small town. Some one to two megatons of explosive force. But I digress, the thrust of my argument was the difference of powere between the vessels in our fleet compared to the Federation. Three hundred system patrol crafts won't equal a single Imperial Star Destroyer but conversely three hundred of their weakest warships, say one of their mirandas, would equal and exceed their strongest warship. A sombering tempering to our mighty Star Fleets numbers.
-Subcommander Tyler[/i]

On the contrary, the media ship that observed the town vaporizing turbolaser blasts also reported that they were spending their time tracking starfighters. As a subcommander, you surely understand that heavy turbolasers are not used to track starfighters, especially not in the situation mentioned, in which there were also capital ships firing at the fleet. Light turbolasers track fighters; heavy turbolasers target enemy capital ships.

I'm saying installing installing things like the ion cannon and shields and the required generator isn't something indictative for an adhoc base your plan on leaving in a day or so.

On the contrary, my entire point is that the fact that the Rebels did install an ion cannon and shields, despite having a small base and despite still being in the process of exploring the surrounding area, leads to two facts:

1. That the Rebel base is temporary, given that the Rebel Alliance is on the run, and nobody would establish their permanent HQs on an icy planet.
2. That they nevertheless have a theater shield and a powerful ion cannon.

The extrapolation from these two facts is that ion cannons and theater shields are very easy to assemble [relatively], rather than being an enormous undertaking.

Do not be obtuse.

When you call your opponent a troll, you cannot expect to reclaim the moral high ground.

You blathered that the base was temporary. I was pointing out the Rebels seemed to have settled down quite a bit for that to be the case.

Except that the base was only a few square kilometer in area, the surrounding area was uncharted, and the Rebels were able to evacuate their assets very quickly for what you think to be a base surpassing an established planet in resources.

Yes one generator. To shield a planet you'll need many more, hundreds or thousands if they are all the same size of the Hoth one.

Which amounts to piss nothing, because the rebel shield generator was incredibly small, and certainly easier to construct that the various superstructures on Coruscant, for example, or the giant orbital mirrors and shipyards orbiting Coruscant.

with planetary shields able to hold of all but the most massive turbolaser and proton torpedo bombardment... only way to subdue a mordern world was to put a fast-moving ground force down at the edges and send them overland to destroy the shield generators

…this…

Do you realize that this COMPLETELY DESTROYS your assertion that planetary shields are rare? Or did this possibility completely slip your mind?

And you would comment on this. On how the Seppies were able to capture the Chancellor, or death and destruction something. Instead nothing.

Once again, your habit of defeating your own arguments helps me here.

1. Your argument, as indicated by the bolded text, means that the “plot hole” here exists regardless of whether or not there was a planetary shield.
2. Your argument assumes that nothing was asked about the kidnapping, just because it isn’t explicitly shown or stated in the limited timeframe of a movie.


So, you refute my Death Star counterargument with the assertion that they are extremely costly, and severely strained the Empire to build.

Then, when I use the Death Star to extrapolate industrial might, you turn around and argue that a Death Star is only a “drop in the bucket” for the Empire, because it’s magically far cheaper than stuff that, by all logical thought, should be a drop in the bucket next to the Death Star. You go from claiming that the Death Star is a monumental undertaking to saying that it is a drop in the bucket, contextually using various self-contradicting arguments to support your point. If there is anyone being dishonest here, it isn’t me.

Hilariously, you argue that there planetary shields are so rare that they are a non-issue…but then you provide a quote implying just the opposite!

You then dismiss a G canon observation on the basis of being illogical, yet have no issue with accepting a secondary source equating the Death Star to a “score” of sector groups, logic be damned.

You also believe that physics and canon bend to your own theories, that the conflict between your 200,000 C argument and “modest sized” galaxy, “hundreds of light years”, and the observable facts of our universe ends up with your fan calculation winning!

And you wonder why SDN doesn’t take you seriously?

[sonofccn]

…this…

Do you realize that this COMPLETELY DESTROYS your assertion that planetary shields are rare? Or did this possibility completely slip your mind?

Do I realize it is suggesting modern, through that in and of itself doesn't determin ratio of "modern" to "non modern" in the galaxy at large, worlds have planetary shields? Yes. Its C-canon. I did just go through a fairly straightforward and definative example in G-canon on how 19 years previously a world that was heavily fortified didn't have shields over the planet.

Which amounts to piss nothing, because the rebel shield generator was incredibly small, and certainly easier to construct that the various superstructures on Coruscant, for example, or the giant orbital mirrors and shipyards orbiting Coruscant.

Since we do not know what any of those projects were in relation to Coruscant there is nothing to say if the shield generators will amount "to piss nothing". All that could be said is that Coruscant should be able to build shield generators which is not something I have ever doubted or denied.

The actual argument was if the strain would be greater or less than compared to the Rebel alliance's base of Hoth. And to that I have proven it requries at least 2 shield generators to protect a planet and they must generator several times the power merely to project the same strength as the theater shield. (Unless you have a canon quote of course, it being the gospel as you say, saying a similarly sized shield generator can accomplish the same strenght.) Therefore they must use either a superior fuel source or be built larger to accomodate this. This is unlikely to make them cheaper per unit volume through without knowing the full numbers of generators needed I can't make a determination if the planet would have greater strain in relation to the Hoth base. But the evidence does show to make the opposite conclusion, Rebel base could do theater so the world could do planetary super easy, equally indeterminate

1. Your argument, as indicated by the bolded text, means that the “plot hole” here exists regardless of whether or not there was a planetary shield.

Not really. Movie version fleet arrives, they go down and take Palpy. Fairly straightforward. Your version the super-duper shield which would have protected the world fine just goes on the fritz allowing them to dive and steal the chancellor and rain down destruction onto the planet below. That is a big hurdle to overcome moreso since I can point to a heavily fortified world which doesn't posses shield technology, one that is expressily stated is capable of withstanding an attack by the Republic navy.

So, you refute my Death Star counterargument with the assertion that they are extremely costly, and severely strained the Empire to build.

No. I refute your arguments the Death Star wasn't costly. I find their reasoning lacking but one may or may agree. Such is life. But there isn't need to misrepresent an argument.

Then, when I use the Death Star to extrapolate industrial might, you turn around and argue that a Death Star is only a “drop in the bucket” for the Empire, because it’s magically far cheaper than stuff that, by all logical thought, should be a drop in the bucket next to the Death Star.

I have quite concistently before I brought up the score of sector group quote stated the Death Star doesn't equate into its volume of star destroyers. I base this first on G-canon evidence with 30 ISDs at ROTJ, the blockaid seen in TPM, even the ROTS which while biggest G-canon fleet still falls short of what a major, pivotal fleet battle should be based upon estimates of the Death Star. I then go to T-canon with almost any fleet battle enabling you to count each side on your two hands and then to C-canon which while larger is still far below what the Death Star indicates they should be fielding. The only examples which mesh with the Death Star assumption would be Saxton's work which essentially used that as an underlying principal.

Okay:

BY FOAMY

1. Fisheye lenses do not introduce curves in their maximum FOV angles.
2. Recording medium is irrelevant. Once can produce fisheye images on any medium, from 35mm to 8mm to paper to .jpeg to incised stone tablets.
3. None of the Wars shots, and certainly not the ones I'm going to use, have any indication of fisheyeness; this is notable by the fact that, for example, the Death Star is still circular.
4. Because you are apparently unable to grasp simplicities, maybe the reason I'm establishing the proportions of the MF's cockpit is to use those proportions in a scaling? I mean, just maybe?
5. The actual length of MF is in fact irrelevant. The claimed length could be a quarter-millimetre and it would not alter the mathematics for the Death Star's size and closure rate at all.

Step 2:




Step 3:

Note that in the preceding pictures, neither Han nor Chewbacca is visible. We can use this fact coupled with the proportions of the MF's cockpit to establish the FOV.

So: From the cross-sections, the MF's centre window width can be found. Note that the actual size is irrelevant, since only the proportions matter in trig; however, converting into metres will provide a common reference standard for working between the pictures. So, from the exterior top view, it can be determined that 1260px = 35m; therefore, the cockpit has a total width of 120px*35m/1260px, or 3.3m.

Applying that to the exterior front view, it establishes that 105px = 2m; therefore, the front window is 25px*3.3m/105px wide, or 0.79m.

Since the front window occupies 300px/656px of the screen, or 0.457, it follows that at the distance of the front window from the camera, the field is 1.72m across.

Step 4.

Now we need to establish where Han and Chewie are. They are 84px*35m/2090px back from the leading window, or 1.4m. Note that in these shots Luke and Obi-Wan block all sightlines along the centre behind the pilot and co-pilot chairs. Therefore the camera must be in front of them. Simultaneously, the camera must be able to show the 1.72m figure noted above. This means I can take the arctangent of (1.72m/2)/1.4m to find the minimum FOV; the highest possible zoom, in fact. This works out to some 32°. I can also use 1.72m/2/1.4m, or 0.614, as a unitless number to avoid having to work with trigonometric fuctions in the next step.

Step 5:

With FOV angle established, we can now determine distance. The Death Star 1 is, per Wookiepedia, 160km in diametre. Therefore the field at the Death Star's distance is 160km/52px*656px, or 2018km across. Divide by 2, for 1014km, and divide again by 0.614, and we have distance: 1643km.

In the second shot, the same calculation:

160km/60px*656px = 1749km; divide by 2 = 874km; divide again by 0.614, for: 1424km. The shots are spaced 2s apart, so that's 110km/s.

I'll be damned. It seems I was wrong about the speed. This is, though, a high-end for the scene; any wider FOV will result in lower numbers.

Thank you.

So any nation can just casually unravel the secrets of any other nation, simply through cultural contact?

We're talking about planet location not launch codes here.

Have you ever considered the logistical and practical chances of the Federation being able to infiltrate the highest ranks of the Alliance high command in any reasonable amount of time, or are you just assuming that things will work out magically?

I don't need to infilirate the highest ranks of the alliance high command to learn where planets are. And while obviously there is some resource comitment we are hardly talking about supporting legions in the field.

Or have you considered how your agents will stand up against Jedi probing?

Do jedi randomly probe naval crewmembers and freighter crews?

Do you think that sensors are magic?

No. I think they can detect things like planets with life on them.

No, your response now to an unsupported statement is to back it up with more unsupported statements, that add up to a slightly more wordy version of your original unsupported statement.

No matter what I say you'll say its unsupported because you disagree with me on the strenght of an ISD. But very well. 1 megaton MTL as based upon the vaporize a small town versus the hardly high-ball 50-100 megaton directed onto target for a photon torpedo.

Wait, so suddenly, your planetary defenses are relevant, but mine aren’t? Just because you say so?

Because my torpedo renders the entire planet inhospitable, one shot from your ship won't do that. You have to manually blast my worlds apart which you very well might be able to do but it is not directly comparable to what I am doing.

Incorrect. The Enterprise is unable to withstand a half a kiloton of electromagnetic radiation from a pulsar 20 million kilometers distant.

Episode? calcs? And if it is Allegiance [TNG-03]

Then I'll link tothis with special thanks to Mike DiCenso for the calcs.

Second at best we would have two equally canon statments for two seperate things, torpedo shields and ships shields, making the conflict minimal.

1. That the Rebel base is temporary, given that the Rebel Alliance is on the run, and nobody would establish their permanent HQs on an icy planet.

Except its remote and overlooked. What should they build a base on Risa or something?

2. That they nevertheless have a theater shield and a powerful ion cannon.

Which indicates a certain level of comitment. It wasn't merely just adhoc base set up on a whim because Luke wanted to go ride a snow-lizard.

The extrapolation from these two facts is that ion cannons and theater shields are very easy to assemble [relatively], rather than being an enormous undertaking.

Or the rebel base made a serious comitment in arming itself against attack which as they were being hunted by the Empire makes sense.

Except that the base was only a few square kilometer in area

So? What does that have to do with if the base we intended long term or not?

the surrounding area was uncharted

So? My argument is not that the rebels have been on Hoth for years and years or anything. Merley that the investment is not indicative of some temporary spur of the moment base. A belief you have not provided any evidence in support of.

the Rebels were able to evacuate their assets very quickly for what you think to be a base surpassing an established planet in resources

We see them evac the personal out, the ion cannon, obviously the shield generator and much of the base itself didn't come along for the ride. Nothing indicates the Rebels didn't plan to stay there for a spell.

And I never said Hoth represenated more than a planet's resources. I said it represenated a higher investment in defense then compared to say Naboo which didn't have theater shields or ion cannons and is a fairly propserous world.