Challenge: Invade the Star Wars galaxy

[mojo]

idiocy. i'm not even just being an ass. 1,000 years for the republic as stated in the prequels - idiocy. yes, pt states 1,000 years. ot states 1,000 generations. you can't warn someone for choosing g canon over g canon. give us a break, mike.

[Picard]

And what if definition of generation in Star Wars is "all children born in one year"? Something like, "Generation 1990"?

[mojo]

And what if definition of generation in Star Wars is "all children born in one year"? Something like, "Generation 1990"?

that seems like a huuuuuuuuuuuge leap to make to fix lucas's memory lapse. don't you think if lucas meant to completely change the meaning of a word we might get some sort of evidence to point it out? a hint, at least? especially given the fact that the entire story revolves around the generations of a single family?

darth vader: luke, i am the generation 40,762 to your generation 43,845. join me, and together we can destroy the emperor and rule the galaxy as generation 40,762 and 43,845!
luke skywalker: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[StarWarsStarTrek]

This crap is sheer trolling and will earn you another warning for essentially just posting handwaving and ignoring evidence, and not providing any explanation or proper counter-evidence:

Fuck, you gave me a warning for mistaking a poster's position when I was blatantly quoting a completely different and unrelated poster. No, really. I was quoting one of Praeothmin's posts, addressing him with "you", and your response is to think that I am talking to Kor. Your reading comprehension skills are so laughable, you probably don't even understand the overloading amounts of extreme irony in this mistake.

"This crap is sheer trolling" is another way to say "I think that your arguments are bad, and we all know that being wrong is an offense here."

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Why is that true? A good number of episodes have insanely high speeds, such as the Enterprise traversing across one thousand light years to reach Tycho IV in "Obsession" [TOS, Season 2] in a day,

<<<<<<< 1 million C.

or 990 light years in "That Which Survives" [TOS, Season 3] and does that in mere hours.

<<<<<<< 1 million C.

The TOS Enterprise goes back and forth from the very limits of the Milky Way galaxy's edge not once, but three times in the series, etc ("Where No Man Has Gone Before", "By Any Other Name", and "In Truth, is There No Beauty?").

Who is the one that is trolling now? Or are you to tell me that the Enterprise used conventional warp in all of these instances?

The E-D pulls off several similar feats, such as "The Chase", having to follow a path that spans at least 40,000 light years as was demonstrated on a map of the MW galaxy by Professor Galen. The E-D did that in days, pushing her engines. Again, all this occurs in well-charted territory.

Where is it ever stated that Federation forces are "weeks" away from anything? We only know that it takes weeks for mere freighters to travel across the Federation. The E-E in Star Trek: First Contact travels from the the distant Romulan Neutral Zone to intercept the Borg cube in a what appears to be less than a day's time. ST:ENT's "Dead Stop" shows that the nearest Romulan territory at that time was at least 150 light years from Earth

"mere" freighters? Are mere freighters regulated by international law to be thousands of times slower than the Enterprise sometimes is? Or the Voyager?

Now, you see, I can come up with just as many examples of low warp speeds in the hundreds of C or so, including the entire Voyager series. You no doubt have planned elaborate rationalizations for each, but my point being that arguing contrary to your Word is by no means an excercise in trolling. Saying that the Voyager's 7 year journey is contradictory to high warp speeds is true, it's not trolling.

Huh? What? When? Over 800 million were dead on Cardassia in a matter of hours when the Dominion and Breen tried to exterminate them for switching sides. But in "Statistical Probabilities", 900 billion were projected to be killed and in the alternate timeline of "Yesterday's Enterprise", over 40 billion were killed in the Federation alone in the Federation-Klingon war. As for your numbers, what source are you using? You rarely, if ever cite a source that can be verified.

I am using the same source that you are, and 800 million dead "in a matter of hours" over the duration of the YV war maps out to significantly less than 300 trillion, even if you presume that 800 million die every few hours at every moment in the war.

With very basic math, one can also realize that 900 billion dead is also less than 300 trillion dead.

They have space-faring members who've been at it for millennia, such as the Vulcans. "The Andorian Incident" [ST:ENT, Season 1], establishes that the Vulcan monastary of P'Jem had been established 3,000 years prior to the 2151 timeframe of the episode. That means that in order to do that, Vulcans had to have been spacefaring quite some time before that to be able to develop a capability to traverse many light years to get from Vulcan to P'Jem. That implies at least centuries. On top of that, unlike the Dominion, which is a highly repressive authoritarian government, the Federation is a peaceful, voluntary, open demoncracy and it's members share everything with each other, thus research and development would go faster. That's why the Federation started just behind the Dominion technologically to being at least on par.

So you are proposing, with no evidence whatsoever, that the Federation is only able to compete with 10,000 year old empires because of the Federation's older members bringing them up. If you still hold that the Federation advances "very rapidly", then that would mean that the humans' first encounter with the Vulcans was an equivalent of a Spanish Empire's first encounter with the United States.

Please. Nor do I see anything unreasonable or "trolling" in making my point, given that countering it requires such rationializations.

Irrelevant. The point was made that 11 percent was not what was charted. Both a later statement and a viewscreen map of the MW galaxy show us a vastly larger proportion has been explored and charted than you claim. What's more, if you take the progression of charted territory literally, it is frighteningly fast in Star Trek compared to Star Wars. In a few years the Federation charted an amazing 20 percent more than they did when the 11 percent statement was made. In Star Wars by contrast, it takes centuries to chart out even one hyperlane.

Oh great, so you prove to me that 31% or even more of the milky way has been charted by the Federation. What an amazing gain on your part, it clearly totally destroys Wars' 100% charting of the galaxy.

Why? How do you know that quintillons even exist in the proper George Lucas Star Wars universe? Remember that just a couple years of fighting the Clone Wars and ordering a mere additional 5 million clones was enough to bankrupt the Galactic Republic as per "Heroes on Both Sides" [TCW, Season 3]. By comparision, the Dominion can grow a Jem'Hadar soldier from infant to fighting adult in a matter of days ("The Abandoned" [DS9, Season 3], and easily without breaking a sweat replaced them by the millions.

The obvious implication here is that the EU is not part of your definition of the "proper" Star Wars universe, no matter how logical and fitting the statistics are with a realistic galactic civlization, unless, of course, if it suits your ends.

No matter, even if the "proper" SW universe only has trillions of sapients, there would still be trillions or so droids, since the droid:sapient ratio is very high as indicated by the films.

You got banned precisely because of nonsense like this. The Republic as an organization was 1,000 years old as per statments made in the prequel trilogy. Example:

PALPATINE: I will not let this Republic that has stood for
a thousand years be split in two. My negotiations will not
fail!

That was from "Star Wars: Attack of the Clones".

By contrast, the Dominion was 10,000 years old, and the Founders had to be spacefaring long before that, just as the Vulcans were millennia before the Fedeeration's founding. See, what bothers me is that you keep picking the highest numbers, or going with literalist interpretations when none are called for, and on top of that you rarely properly cite sources for your alleged information. When you do cite something, it is often out of context, or what you claim, or based heavily on someone else's work.

Except that Obi Wan also stated a thousand generations, which is supported by the entire EU, which in turn did well to retcon and reconcile the two contradictions. Since there is a source firmly supporting a 25,000 year old galactic civilization, I fail to see how making the assertion constitutes as a troll move.

Especially since, I am almost certain that you, and very certain that your allies, have made the statement along the lines of "it took Star Wars 25,000 years to map out their galaxy!!!!" which moreso fits with the idea that you inflate certain parts of Wars to selectively deflate the topic at hand.

Where are you getting this from? No citations.

What the hell? There's a citatioin right above you. If you mean the Federation's population, there is a reason why I used the word "possibly".

So what. The first Death Star took 23 years to build, and it's construction did not remain secret.

No fucking shit! After 23 years, still only "rumours" of the station's existence was known publicly (Star Wars: Death Star) and everybody severely underestimated its firepower and capabilities.

But as has been pointed out before, without any citations, your quotes are worthless, and likely cherry picking. Even if the second Death Star was made in total secrecy, what did it cost the Empire to do so? What did they sacrifice that they could have done instead?

Rhetorical questions with no basis? Wonderful!

Because you that you can keep a bankrupting project a secret.

And even if it did drain every last credit and every last resource the Empire ever had, it would still be a feat surpassing anything that the Federation is physically capable of building.

And if there are trillions of crew, how come we never ever see in the movies or TCW fleets to match this, except possibly the Battle of Coruscant, which maybe had a few hundred ships total from both sides taking part in it based on the visuals.

My god, there are trillions of crew, this is not a claim, it's a canon statement.

And your logic hurts my head. Because we don't see the entire CREW of ships (how do you see these?) spread out across the galaxy in a single battle of series of battle, you conclude that they do not exist? Because we don't see 6 billion people at once on this planet, you conclude that there is a conspiracy covering up a recent global geonocide? Because you do not see 900 billion dead, obviously your casualty states are lies.

Feel free to show me where we see anything more than a hundred ships at once in Star Trek.

Rest later.

[KSW]

idiocy. i'm not even just being an ass. 1,000 years for the republic as stated in the prequels - idiocy. yes, pt states 1,000 years. ot states 1,000 generations. you can't warn someone for choosing g canon over g canon. give us a break, mike.

Then Han shot first... and I'm not even just being an ass either.
It's called retcon.

[Trinoya]

Feel free to show me where we see anything more than a hundred ships at once in Star Trek.

Battle of Cardassia.

[KSW]

I have to ask this, since you're quoting the Star Wars EU pretty liberally:

We follow Chase's canon policy
Star Trek EU is non-canon, as are the tech books

But lemme guess-- Star Wars EU is canon?
Well that's pretty fricking convenient.

[Praeothmin]

Well, he's once again ignoring something else that's been said to him:

We follow Chase's canon policy

First, it's Leland CHEE, not Chase...
Second, in the canon policy, the EU is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyy below the movies and T-Canon (TCW), which he often ignores...

[Khas]

Feel free to show me where we see anything more than a hundred ships at once in Star Trek.

"Favor The Bold" and "Sacrifice of Angels". 627 Federation ships, 300 Klingon ships, 1254 Dominion ships.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The Essential Atlas caps the SW galactic pop in the quadrillion range. It also makes it clear that the galaxy is faaaaar from being entirely explored. Actually, most known space represents like a quarter of it, iirc (I'll recheck later, but I think it does say a quarter of the galaxy).

The 900 billion casualties in the projected scenario explained here:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 272#p37272, http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 942#p14942
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 400#p19400, http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 406#p19406
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 210#p21210

Etc.
Point being that to provide 900 bn casualties after x packs of years, you still need a certain minimal population, if only for the low end scenario where the projected total is the result of renewed "stocks of life".

ST's warp speed also are full of low examples. If no rationalization is possible, then placing each estimated speed on a statistical chart and looking for the average will allow people to draw a line.
I'm surprised that in something like 15 years of Trek fandom, no one has tried to put all known estimations onto a chart, from clear figures to bracketed low and high ends, and see where the most recurrent speeds lie, in order to isolate the outliers.
It would need to be done for each season, with a graph which horizontal units would represent the succession of episodes, and an indication of which ship or event each figure is attributed to. It would immensely clarify all this FTL speed mess.

A Republic can exist for a thousand years without excluding the existence of a former one before, or another form of government.
The biggest problem has never been the age of the Republic but the nature and size of the SW galaxy. The problem is actually so huge that the only way to make sense is to have the SW galaxy located in a region of space choke full of super giant galaxies, so the one from the EU can be considered a modest one.

The trillion crews is but one single canonical statement outmatched by an incredibly wide range of sources largely pointing to an entire Imperial Fleet (the largest the galaxy has ever seen at that point) counting millions of ships tops, with most of them having on the average thousands to a few dozen thousand crews.
The trillion crews figure is an outlier.

The Federation may have not used/wasted resources building a huge battle station, but it has certainly built its own share of space stations and other curious massive planetary structures which, when compiled, represents a large share of the Death Star's mass or volume.

[KSW]

Well, he's once again ignoring something else that's been said to him:

We follow Chase's canon policy

First, it's Leland CHEE, not Chase...

Geez, how hard is it to remember that the guy's Chinese, not British?
The Warsies have twisted Chee's words, as is their wont, to mean the polar opposite of their plain intent and context, and claim that the EU is canon.

Second, in the canon policy, the EU is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyy below the movies and T-Canon (TCW), which he often ignores...

Actually it's not "below," it's beside, i.e. no connection. So they can't say "it counts if it doesn't contradict," because it doesn't count no matter what, contradiction or consistency is irrelevant.
But still they want to say "Ok, Boba Fett is dead, but everything else goes."
Cherry-pick much?

[KSW]

The Essential Atlas caps the SW galactic pop in the quadrillion range. It also makes it clear that the galaxy is faaaaar from being entirely explored. Actually, most known space represents like a quarter of it, iirc (I'll recheck later, but I think it does say a quarter of the galaxy).

And as I mentioned, in this thread the SW galaxy is only 1/8 the volume of the MW galaxy (i.e. 50,000LY long, or 1/2 the length and other dimensions of the MW galaxy).
So since we've covered that the Federation has explored at least 1/4 of the MW galaxy, then that's 8 times as much much space as 1/4 of the SW galaxy.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

1. It's not crap, it's a canon sourcebook. Can you get your mind around the idea that pro Wars publications are still valid regardless of your own opinion?

2. Quadrillions in a galaxy is not wank, if anything, it's too low to fit with even a 1000 year old civilization. It's not overinflationary. Do some basic math and you'll realize that there is nothing ridiculous or inplausible about it.

Sadly, the same cannot be said about 4 million troops fighting a galactic war.

3. Attack of the Clones quite indistutably settles the issue of galactic mapping.

[sonofccn]

or 990 light years in "That Which Survives" [TOS, Season 3] and does that in mere hours

<<<<<<< 1 million C

Actually 990 lightyears every eight hours or so would exceed 1 million c. So your response is invalid to a lenght of mere hours.

Just in case your curious 24 hours a day divided by eight would equal three which timed against 990 light years would equal 2970 light years a day timed against 365 would equal 1084050 lightyears a year.

Now, you see, I can come up with just as many examples of low warp speeds in the hundreds of C or so, including the entire Voyager series

I'd actually would like to see you actually cataloge these incidents not just handwave claiming that they are there. For instance Voyager has examples of both less than 1000c max speed as well as over 20,000c.

I am using the same source that you are

Then you are being disengenious. You claimed "They considered a few hundred million dead to be a devastating war." when the few hundred million dead were the Cardassians killed on a single planet in a few hours in an adhoc retaliation for them switching sides and was conducted with heavy infantry use.

WEYOUN: We have a security breach.
FOUNDER: The guards will deal with it. Is there a problem?
WEYOUN: The guards. There're only a handful left in the building. I sent the rest to help eradicate the Cardassians

With very basic math, one can also realize that 900 billion dead is also less than 300 trillion dead.

Okay? I'm not sure how well 300 trillion meshes with the Lucas's universe but yes 300 trillion is greater than 900 billion. Through the Dominion were first and foremost conquerers who wanted to dominant solids and the Vong unless I'm mistaken were religious zealots who wanted to purge all unclean life.

So you are proposing, with no evidence whatsoever, that the Federation is only able to compete with 10,000 year old empires because of the Federation's older members bringing them up.

Actually he also insuated that as a free an open Democracy which actively shares and coloberates resources and ideas with each other they are more open to invention than say the repressive Dominon.

then that would mean that the humans' first encounter with the Vulcans was an equivalent of a Spanish Empire's first encounter with the United States.

Considering that by 2150 decades after first contact the best ship mankind could possibly build was fitted was sensors described thusly:

T'POL: It's just background noise. Your sensors aren't capable of isolating plasma decay.
TUCKER: How can you be so damn sure what our sensors can do?
T'POL: Vulcan children play with toys that are more sophisticated.

As well their ships can do warp seven while the warp five engine was a major advancment for human kind

T'POL: The Sh'Raan is capable of warp seven. If we could maintain warp five we'd reach them in twelve minutes.

I think its fair to say that on first contact they ate our lunch.

Oh great, so you prove to me that 31% or even more of the milky way has been charted by the Federation.

In a handful of years. So not only were you wrong about only 11% being charted the speed in which they are now charting the cosmos is absolutely staggering. In the we'll chart the entire galaxy in a couple of decades sense since the point seems to be missing you.

What an amazing gain on your part, it clearly totally destroys Wars' 100% charting of the galaxy.

Actually the EU strictly says otherwise and the only claim for it would be an sure of herself Jedi. Conversely it has been shown to you in T-canon that not all hyperspace routes, massive ones which could tilt a war, in the Core systems are charted in the waning days of the Republic. And 25,000 or 1,000 they've been at it a lot longer than the Federation has been charting space.

No matter, even if the "proper" SW universe only has trillions of sapients, there would still be trillions or so droids, since the droid:sapient ratio is very high as indicated by the films.

Could you go more in depths than a general refrence to the films? Off the top of my head be it the Diner Ben goes to ATOC, the moisture farm in ANH the "average joe" who owns droids does it in order to perform their job. Like a farmer owns a tractor and tilling machinery doesn't mean the entire population of America has one in their garage. Further you are making sweeping assumptions over the worlds which make up the Republic/Empire even through from what little we've seen of Dac or Kashyyyk such worlds don't have an over abundance of droids and both were members of the Old Republic. Then there's Naboo, Ryloth, and Toydaria none of which I remember being shown as a heavy droid dependent cultures.

Now I could be misremembering so what precisely are you basing the "droid:sapient " ratio as high.

Especially since, I am almost certain that you, and very certain that your allies, have made the statement along the lines of "it took Star Wars 25,000 years to map out their galaxy!!!!"

I have done that but I am hardly an ally of Mike. That is giving me way to much credit considering the bulk of our interaction is him correcting one of my childish mistakes. The simple fact of hte matter is we don't all tow the same party line, we each have differnt ideas and thoughts on the matter and disagreement.

What the hell? There's a citatioin right above you

You have not listed where this "quote" is coming from.

My god, there are trillions of crew, this is not a claim, it's a canon statement

In one source. Conversely we know there were only trillions of people in the Old Republic from a G-canon source. The Outer Rim would have to be heavily populated, or massively conscripted, to make up the difference. Not absolutely incompatable but difficult to fit in with the G-cannon universe. Asking that you put the skullsweat into actually trying to fit the pieces togather is hardly a crime.