Slave Ship and ICS

[Mr. Oragahn]

May you condense your numbers a bit please, with a more scientific nomenclature?
I understand the will to show accuracy, but the other form wouldn't hurt either.

I did. Read carefully, please.

Eh? I did and "33,510,321,638,291,127,876,934,862.75 tons" for example doesn't look very condensed. There's another figure for mass that's about as long. You could even do without the many decimals in most cases.
At least provide a condensed version along the ones with full decimals.

In "The Masterpiece Society", the E-D moved a mountain-sized stellar core fragment with a density of explicitly stated density of 10e14 tons per m^3.

Dang, another day in Star Trek nonsense. :)
Especially since it's the same episode wherein Geordi states:

We have a matter-antimatter warp reaction system, the most powerful in the Starfleet. Normally, it kicks plasma up into the terawatt range. Why?

So for this episode to be internally consistent, and to avoid cherry picking, we need to find something that fits with a power core that can provide terawatts of power.

Even if we applied a mass reduction like in Déjà Q, with a factor of a million to a billion (depends on the calculated size and mass of the Déjà Q moon), we can reduce that mass so the KE is reduced by that much, from 1.676 e22 to 1.676e19 joules.
Nothing like that is indicated in the episode aside from using "warp power", though.
Let's assume that it's been integrated to the ship's system in case of another of those maneuvers. After all, Déjà Q took place well before Masterpice Society. It would be silly not to replicated this trick.
Then, we may claim an entirely different acceleration, something on the order of a truly ridiculous drift. Why? They couldn't move the thing an inch even with their updated system and "three hundred twenty percent over standard".
Then life support was largely cut (although not by much) and that magically allowed them to "win". Yeah, who uses mutli-gigataton levels of energy on life support eh?
How silly. Anyway.
At 400% above standard, they finally get to move the fragment. They altered the angle by 1.2° over, what? dozens of seconds? Perhaps a short minute at best? Don't know, perhaps a camera cut may have let a full minute slip by.
That's about how long they applied some centripetal force to the stellar core, over 1.2°, with the E-D being the axis of rotation and the point of contact being the barycenter of the stellar core.
Did someone do the maths on that one? I can't find the page for those calcs on JMS' site.

Nothing to quibble about, even JMS can't dispute it since he himself went into the episode in detail for his site. Originally Data gives the density in billions of kg per cubic centimeter.
-Mike

Imho, there are two reasons to quibble about. First because it requires stupid amounts of energy, and no one can take it seriously. Secondly, because in the same episode, a power figure is given for the ship.

[Mike DiCenso]

Eh? I did and "33,510,321,638,291,127,876,934,862.75 tons" for example doesn't look very condensed. There's another figure for mass that's about as long. You could even do without the many decimals in most cases.
At least provide a condensed version along the ones with full decimals.

No. When showing one's work, you must show all of it so that there can be no question about it's validity, at least as far as carrying out the math is concerned. The first I wrote out just to make the point of how huge the mass was, but for the second string of numbers, I made sure to use scientific notation. Now stop quibbling over trivalities that have nothing to do with the issue.

In "The Masterpiece Society", the E-D moved a mountain-sized stellar core fragment with a density of explicitly stated density of 10e14 tons per m^3.

Dang, another day in Star Trek nonsense. :)
Especially since it's the same episode wherein Geordi states:

We have a matter-antimatter warp reaction system, the most powerful in the Starfleet. Normally, it kicks plasma up into the terawatt range. Why?

So for this episode to be internally consistent, and to avoid cherry picking, we need to find something that fits with a power core that can provide terawatts of power.

Even if we applied a mass reduction like in Déjà Q, with a factor of a million to a billion (depends on the calculated size and mass of the Déjà Q moon), we can reduce that mass so the KE is reduced by that much, from 1.676 e22 to 1.676e19 joules.
Nothing like that is indicated in the episode aside from using "warp power", though.
Let's assume that it's been integrated to the ship's system in case of another of those maneuvers. After all, Déjà Q took place well before Masterpice Society. It would be silly not to replicated this trick.
Then, we may claim an entirely different acceleration, something on the order of a truly ridiculous drift. Why? They couldn't move the thing an inch even with their updated system and "three hundred twenty percent over standard".
Then life support was largely cut (although not by much) and that magically allowed them to "win". Yeah, who uses mutli-gigataton levels of energy on life support eh?
How silly. Anyway.
At 400% above standard, they finally get to move the fragment. They altered the angle by 1.2° over, what? dozens of seconds? Perhaps a short minute at best? Don't know, perhaps a camera cut may have let a full minute slip by.
That's about how long they applied some centripetal force to the stellar core, over 1.2°, with the E-D being the axis of rotation and the point of contact being the barycenter of the stellar core.
Did someone do the maths on that one? I can't find the page for those calcs on JMS' site.

Except that nothing of the sort is done in the episode. Not at all. There is no reference back to "Deja Q" and the Bre'el IV moon moving technique. The only thing that lends any credibility to something unusual is the tractor beam modification Geordi and Hannah came up with, but that technique does not seem to involve mass lightning techniques whatsoever. Furthermore, the power quote is at odds with three other big power statements in TNG's "True Q", along with VOY's "Revulsion", "Riddles", and "Fair Haven" that place routine starship power generation in the millions of terawatts. And we can even make the power statement fit with the other four, if we really want to stretch things because Georgi qualifies the statement with "normally". It's clear in the episode that the warp and impulse engines are stretched to their very limits to move the fragment, which required abnormal power generation. Also interesting and something you missed is the dialog that follows after the power generation statement:

HANNAH: Well, either we're going to have to move or that fragment is.

LAFORGE: We can move a small moon or an asteroid, but a stellar core fragment? That's much too massive for our tractor beam.

Note that qualifier there. Geordi talks about this as though it were a routine thing to do, and it completely goes against what happened in "Deja Q" where the ship strained with impulse engines to impart a 92/sec^2 velocity change to the asteroidal moon there.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Eh? I did and "33,510,321,638,291,127,876,934,862.75 tons" for example doesn't look very condensed. There's another figure for mass that's about as long. You could even do without the many decimals in most cases.
At least provide a condensed version along the ones with full decimals.

No. When showing one's work, you must show all of it so that there can be no question about it's validity, at least as far as carrying out the math is concerned. The first I wrote out just to make the point of how huge the mass was, but for the second string of numbers, I made sure to use scientific notation. Now stop quibbling over trivalities that have nothing to do with the issue.

Ja wohl, mein Fuhrer!

Except that nothing of the sort is done in the episode. Not at all. There is no reference back to "Deja Q" and the Bre'el IV moon moving technique.
The only thing that lends any credibility to something unusual is the tractor beam modification Geordi and Hannah came up with, but that technique does not seem to involve mass lightning techniques whatsoever.

I know, and I also know that it doesn't make any sense that they wouldn't attempt to replicate the trick again. Since they're trying to put a massive object on a new course, they have to accelerate it in a given direction while there's going to be a resistance due to the mass of it.

Furthermore, the power quote is at odds with three other big power statements in TNG's "True Q", along with VOY's "Revulsion", "Riddles", and "Fair Haven" that place routine starship power generation in the millions of terawatts.

Which would easily allow a ship to tank copious amounts of megaton torps. In the episode, which is where the evidence is taken after all, it is not. Is this some kind of fancy self-service buffet where you can pick the evidence you like to get a nice plate in the end?
Don't forget the cherries.

That said, after looking at the SDN database for joules and watts, barring the cases which I know could be rationalized and the dishonest observations by Wong, there are some which simply can't be rationalized and remind how Star Trek can be all over the place as well.

And we can even make the power statement fit with the other four, if we really want to stretch things because Georgi qualifies the statement with "normally".

Normally means normally. That's all. An abnormal power production is one that's not supposed to happen, and most likely should not. Let's not pretend that a million more power over the normality is a valid claim. It's nothing but preposterous.
Geordi's statement was a clear statement of power production. It may allow for petawatt power under special circumstances, that's about how far you can stretch Geordi's statement, and for one I have no issue considering that the E-D could normally produce close to the petawatt range.
For example, a nuclear plant that normally kicks energy up in the high megawatt range is not going to suddenly and magically produce ten times more power just because.
It would fit with petajoule charged shields and low petawatt charged phaser banks (charge for several seconds and you're still getting petajoule phaser shots).

It's clear in the episode that the warp and impulse engines are stretched to their very limits to move the fragment, which required abnormal power generation.

Actually, not. It required abnormal power transfer into a system that apparently isn't meant to handle that much constantly, and they managed to cheat the system because they worked with pulses spaced in time. Things started to get problematic when they wanted to increase the frequency of those pulses.
Now, don't ask me if using high magnitude pulses would work better than a continuous pull by gravitons, like if there was some kind of threshold to pass so you'd suddenly unlock a power that allows you to push bigger things. :/

Also interesting and something you missed is the dialog that follows after the power generation statement:

HANNAH: Well, either we're going to have to move or that fragment is.

LAFORGE: We can move a small moon or an asteroid, but a stellar core fragment? That's much too massive for our tractor beam.

Note that qualifier there. Geordi talks about this as though it were a routine thing to do, and it completely goes against what happened in "Deja Q" where the ship strained with impulse engines to impart a 92/sec^2 velocity change to the asteroidal moon there.
-Mike

I didn't miss it. Simply didn't see the point of it.
Small moon or asteroid can be the same. A moon is some stuff that orbits a planet. The smaller ones may even be called moonlets at times. The thing in Déjà Q was nothing small really. Plus it doesn't matter, since they say they can do it while having the ability to channel plasma up the terawatt range. Geordi was explaining Hannah how their ship was awesome and powerful in comparison to the power Hannah's people can produce via their own colony. If the E-D would produce petawatt normally, Geordi would have said it, as simple as that.

[Lucky]

Also interesting and something you missed is the dialog that follows after the power generation statement:

HANNAH: Well, either we're going to have to move or that fragment is.

LAFORGE: We can move a small moon or an asteroid, but a stellar core fragment? That's much too massive for our tractor beam.

Note that qualifier there. Geordi talks about this as though it were a routine thing to do, and it completely goes against what happened in "Deja Q" where the ship strained with impulse engines to impart a 92/sec^2 velocity change to the asteroidal moon there.
-Mike

I didn't miss it. Simply didn't see the point of it.
Small moon or asteroid can be the same. A moon is some stuff that orbits a planet. The smaller ones may even be called moonlets at times. The thing in Déjà Q was nothing small really. Plus it doesn't matter, since they say they can do it while having the ability to channel plasma up the terawatt range. Geordi was explaining Hannah how their ship was awesome and powerful in comparison to the power Hannah's people can produce via their own colony. If the E-D would produce petawatt normally, Geordi would have said it, as simple as that.

Or maybe the hot chick was distracting him, and he says really stupid things when trying to flirt?

[Picard]

He said plasma in terawatt range, not power production / antimatter / name it in terawatt range. Meaning that it might be just plasma normally used by warp / impulse engines during normal low-impulse operations, with no shields and weapons online.

[Lucky]

He said plasma in terawatt range, not power production / antimatter / name it in terawatt range. Meaning that it might be just plasma normally used by warp / impulse engines during normal low-impulse operations, with no shields and weapons online.

We have a matter-antimatter warp reaction system, the most powerful in the Starfleet. Normally, it kicks plasma up into the terawatt range. Why?

It sounds like he is talking about the warp core which they use to create plasma to me.

The terawatt line contradicts other episodes in the Star Trek franchise.

You can easily find the quotes here: http://st-v-sw.net/STSWgigaper.html

[Picard]

They might use warp core to create plasma, but power production is another thing. And no, it doesn't contradict it.

1) We already know that low- to med- power warp core creates billions of gigawatts.
2) Matter/antimatter reaction has several byproducts, main of which are neutrinos (60 % of power production, and they are unusable), and forms of radiation, which is probably harvested for power. Plasma is form of matter, meaning that it cannot be byproduct of reaction which annihilates matter.
3) According to Memory Alpha page here, plasma coolant is used to cool down warp core.
4) Plasma is used to transport high-intensity electricity throught the ship, including the warp nacelles; using copper wires for that would only make wires turn into plasma due to high energies involved

[Lucky]

They might use warp core to create plasma, but power production is another thing. And no, it doesn't contradict it.

1) We already know that low- to med- power warp core creates billions of gigawatts.
2) Matter/antimatter reaction has several byproducts, main of which are neutrinos (60 % of power production, and they are unusable), and forms of radiation, which is probably harvested for power. Plasma is form of matter, meaning that it cannot be byproduct of reaction which annihilates matter.
3) According to Memory Alpha page here, plasma coolant is used to cool down warp core.
4) Plasma is used to transport high-intensity electricity throught the ship, including the warp nacelles; using copper wires for that would only make wires turn into plasma due to high energies involved

The quote is saying that they raise the plasma's energy level to the terawatt range. Not only would lowering the plasma's energy level contradict the quote, but it would be a stupid waste of resources to generate several orders of magnitude more power then is needed.

Seven : "The optical assembly is properly aligned. I am ready to access the main power supply."
Kim : "After you." 
(The pair climb down, and Seven begins to reach into a conduit)

Kim : "Wait! What are you doing, there are five million gigawatts running through there!"

Seven : "The exoskeleton on this limb can withstand it."

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 60&page=10

5,000,000 gigawatts
1 gigawatts = 1,000,000,000
5,000,000 x 1,000,000,000 = 5,000,000,000,000,000 = 5.0x10^15

The plasma in that conduit was in the petawatt range.

Voyager wasn't even running at full power at the time.

The ship was rationing power since it arrived in the Delta quadrant.

Star Fleet has back up systems for back up systems.
_____

The output of the Enterprise-D's warpcore
Amanda: "It's hard to imagine how much energy is being harnessed in there."

Data : "Imagination is not necessary; the scale is readily quantifiable. We are presently generating 12.75 billion gigawatts per . . . "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix

Short scale
12,750,000,000 gigawatts
1 gigawatt = 1,000,000,000 watts
12750000000 x 1000000000 = 12,750,000,000,000,000,000 = 1.27500 x 10^19
12.75 exawatts

Long scale
12,750,000,000,000 gigawatts
1 gigawatt = 1,000,000,000 watts
12,750,000,000,000 x 1,000,000,000 = 12,750,000,000,000,000,000,000 = 1.27500 x 10^22
12.75 zettawatts

[Mr. Oragahn]

Or maybe the hot chick was distracting him, and he says really stupid things when trying to flirt?

I didn't spot any boner through the spandex suit. Did you? :)

He said plasma in terawatt range, not power production / antimatter / name it in terawatt range. Meaning that it might be just plasma normally used by warp / impulse engines during normal low-impulse operations, with no shields and weapons online.

He was talking about whole power production, and plasma is the main mean of power transfer across the entire ship.

[Picard]

So ship was idling, then.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Masterpiece society:

Haven't you noticed the fact that not only was the fragment not being accelerated by any speed, the stated energy source was a bunch of plasma in the terrawatt range? Or that the Enterprise was changing the fragment's trajectory, not it's speed?

Need I mention when a combustible fuel source was considered to be viable for fueling a deflector shield?

Or when a large chemical explosion was more powerful than a proton torpedo?

[Praeothmin]

Need I remind you that fuel in SW is liquid, such as the fuel used in ANH in X-Wings, or as seen in RotS when OBI-Wan and Anakin fall in it?

Or how two combat droids get melted by oil fires, fires which would barely melt a car?

[Mr. Oragahn]

We don't *see* it in ROTS, the scene has been removed. The novelization still has this passage I think, and the illustrated novel has it as well iirc.

Jedi Knight has shown that fuel was liquid. West End Games's RPG supplement "Black Ice" shows that fuel is liquid and it not superdense either.

RSA and JMS have posted a lot about that fuel, and there are criteria which really make it one of a kind, and although there's no superb theory to explain it all, something that gets close to the concept of a high efficiency and energetic form of diesel, which could be fused as well, isn't too absurd.
It's scoffed at because of the word diesel, or say hydrocarbons, but it's quite good once one honestly looks at it. It's also that there's been nothing better suggested thus far, aside from Saxton hamfised's tachyonic hypermatter.

[Picard]

Vodka-powered starship... explains a lot about Stormtroopers.

[Lucky]

Masterpiece society:

Haven't you noticed the fact that not only was the fragment not being accelerated by any speed, the stated energy source was a bunch of plasma in the terrawatt range? Or that the Enterprise was changing the fragment's trajectory, not it's speed?

The energy source was also stated to have a far higher output in a different, and Gordi is horrible with the ladies.

Need I mention when a combustible fuel source was considered to be viable for fueling a deflector shield?

Context is always helpful. I don't recall this episode.

Or when a large chemical explosion was more powerful than a proton torpedo?

There are a lot of strange substances in Star Trek that have strange properties. You need to provide context for the event.