StarWarsStarTrek

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Uh, no, the video clearly shows that the Death Star was within the viewscreen of the Falcon, but started off small and got larger. It wasn't scrolling up.

Prove we initially see the DS as one of those dots.

Oh and it was scrolling up.

I didn't claim that the velocity was the Death Star's. The Falcon likely did the moving, but that still shows that Star Wars ship speeds are pretty darn high.

"pretty darn high" being a unit of measurement equal to what in the real world of debating that requires a bit more than that?.

Because it makes a 160 km battlestation go from being a speck to being a huge battlestation in a matter of seconds?

So, we see the enterprise leave earth orbit with the earth on screen in the rear view and the velocity is easily 0.5c.

What same debunked crap? You mean the rebuttal attempt of disproving the indisputable; that is, the Death Star obviously moved towards Yavin 4, and that's a fact; by claiming it to be impossible?

Nope, your accusation that i was claiming it was impossible was the strawman you created to avoid the inertial dampening issue.

I did cover that in the last thread you tried to push this particular strawman but you ran away from that thread just like you have done all the others (3 in total now) and now in a forth thread started preaching your debunked crap......

Basically, trying to debunk soft sci fi on the concept of it not even being scientifically impossible, but practically impossible?

Nope moving the DS at that velocity is quite doable but as we KNOW they have inertial dampening and mass lightening the power required to do so is not equal to the power you claim as your claim is done without them and as such is totaly flawed in many ways.

Do you not realize how skewed that is? I might as well dismiss warp drive because it's impossible.

Strawmen are able to dismiss nothing.


I suggest you brush up on Newton's laws of motion, a brush up on inertial stresses could not hurt either.

[Mike DiCenso]

You can see in the video here starting at 2.04 when the TIE fighter is picked up by the Falcon's sensors at 2:44 (they've already been out of hyperspace travelling in roughly the same direction for a minute prior to this) when the Death Star appears as a small, bright point in top center of the cockpit window view, then look at how it appears at 2:55 it has increased in size so that it subtends a larger area. This is before the tractor beam snagged the ship at around 3:11 which pulls them in at the same relative velocity as when they were heading towards it on their own. They do not reach the station until about 4:07.

Now we must remember that, according to the ANH novelization, the Falcon exited hyperspace approximately 1 planetary diameter distance from where Alderaan was supposed to be. The Death Star when it fired on Alderaan was about 6 planetary diameters out (77,000 km). So we might assume the Falcon travelled some 90,000 km in 3 minutes, which translates to 500 km a second. Not bad, but the Enterprise in ST:TMP travelled from Earth to Jupiter in just under 1.8 hours for a velocity of 110,000 km/sec, or 220 times faster than the Falcon.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

You can see in the video here starting at 2.04 when the TIE fighter is picked up by the Falcon's sensors at 2:44 (they've already been out of hyperspace travelling in roughly the same direction for a minute prior to this) when the Death Star appears as a small, bright point in top center of the cockpit window view, then look at how it appears at 2:55 it has increased in size so that it subtends a larger area. This is before the tractor beam snagged the ship at around 3:11 which pulls them in at the same relative velocity as when they were heading towards it on their own. They do not reach the station until about 4:07.

I was going from 2:13, but yea at 2:55 we do see it, and the view IS scrolling down still as is almost lost from our view before it cuts back to Han.

Now we must remember that, according to the ANH novelization, the Falcon exited hyperspace approximately 1 planetary diameter distance from where Alderaan was supposed to be. The Death Star when it fired on Alderaan was about 6 planetary diameters out (77,000 km). So we might assume the Falcon travelled some 90,000 km in 3 minutes, which translates to 500 km a second. Not bad, but the Enterprise in ST:TMP travelled from Earth to Jupiter in just under 1.8 hours for a velocity of 110,000 km/sec, or 220 times faster than the Falcon.
-Mike

A minimum of 64,000km upto 90,000km depending what side the MF emerged from so a minimum of 355km/s upto 500km/s, that is only 6x to 10x as fast as our fastest probe is moving (the Helios 2) im not impressed.

Jupiter is 740,573,600 km to 816,520,800 km so minimum 114,286km/s to maximum 126,006km/s for a refit connie.

In Relics they go from orbiting the sun at 150 thousand km to the door in the dyson sphere that was upto 100 million km away in a time frame showing similar velocities to ST:TMP.

[2046]

That whole scene is broken.

First, the whole scene makes no sense if you assume the bright speck is the Death Star. To start with, it's at the top of the view out the window and moving upward, meaning the fighter's not heading towards it as stated. And, it doesn't work mathematically.

If we were to assume the speck is the Death Star, and assuming about an arc-minute in size (about the rough minimum eyeball resolution), then given a 120km battlestation we're looking at a distance on the order of 400,000 kilometers when they first catch sight of it.

Even if we assume it was ten arc-minutes in apparent size at that point, you're still in the 40,000 kilometer range. And yet, ten or eleven seconds later they're close enough to see detail, up to and including the superlaser dish. Even if the Death Star's only a degree wide at that point, they'd still be at about 7,000 kilometers distant.

That would require an average velocity of 3,300 kilometers per second. And yet, in the very next shot about 11-12 seconds later, the Death Star's apparent size has increased by about 2.5 times or so, for a rough distance of 2,750 kilometers. Only then does the Falcon begin attempting to slow down (meeting with a tiny bit of success given the TIE's leap forward), and yet by that point her speed along with that of the TIE would only be about 425 kilometers per second, compared to the earlier one-degree view.

But even that speed makes no sense, though, because at that speed they'd hit the Death Star in six seconds.

In any case, though, find it easier to believe that the 3,300 km/s value is unnecessary rather than attempting to believe that the Falcon and TIE both slowed during a chase.

As for the speed, 425 km/s is achievable for a vessel limited to 200m/s acceleration in about half an hour's engine burn. But 450,000 kilometers will be traversed during the trip. Ironically, that's about the distance to the bright speck.

So, our options are:

1. Assume the bright speck is the Death Star, which requires that we give this sequence a time of about half an hour, but roughly matches the acceleration distance. This unfortunately requires a senseless slowdown in the middle of the chase.

2. Disregard the bright speck that was moving out of view anyway instead of being headed right toward. This requires that the Falcon and TIE be doing some 425km/s or so as the chase ends, relative to the Death Star, but also requires senseless slowdown.

Or, perhaps there are other options I'm missing right now. But it seems to me that the scene is broken.

Actually, hold up. The cockpit frame looks different between views. If I overlay and scale based on the cockpit frame, the Death Star actually increases in apparent size by a factor of *four*, not 2.5, which makes things even worse. That would put the distance as 1700 instead of 2750, which just gets all kinds of stupid real quick.

Ugh.

[Mike DiCenso]

Regardless of how "messed up" that scene is from a realism standpoint, it sets both hard upper and lower limits on the Falcon's acceleration capabilities, which is still about three orders of magnitude below the ST:TMP Earth-Jupiter run made by the refit Enterprise.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I am not really bothered about the velocity ssues as we never see it in combat and all the high ends are cut scenes anyway, the real issue is that SWST constantly tries to use it to justify power generation and even when the flaws are pointed out he either moves to another thread or creates a rather poor strawman regarding "impossibility" claims.

He really needs to be cornered on it as he just keeps skipping threads everytime he is challenged about it.