Galaxy-Class & ISD Weaponry

[Mr. Oragahn]

I made comparation using Darkstar's website:

Maximum weapons range (against capital ships):
ISD-5 000 km
GCS-300 000 km (taken from Nebula-class weapons range in TNG episode "Wounded")

The SW maximum range is one order of magnitude too big. Only stationary and powerful weapons like the KDY ion cannon have demonstrated a range of several thousands kilometers, and that was against an ISD on some predictable course of interception, the speed of the bolts, even if they picked up speed, not allowing for greater ranges no matter what.
The EU's heavy planetary weapons are also given long ranges, and turbolasers generally happen to travel faster anyway.

Maximum energy weapons power:
ISD-1.5 megatons per shot
GCS-4.2 gigatons per second

Bollocks. :)
The ISD could have a firepower one OoM greater than if putting out everything in one single shot while powering nothing else.
The EU shows what could be a high end shot against an Earth-sized planet. The luminous pile of pixels could be a fireball's flash, or a fireball's width, the later making the firepower very large, but we can't tell.
Going with the flash route would make the yields smaller, but it would fit with greater cannon and fit with the terajoules mentioned in "X-Wing: Isard's Revenge" (1, 2, 3). Since the ISDs had lost their main weapons, it's likely that they could be the only ships of that greater tonnage capable of petajoule firepower.

But really the gigaton claim for the GCS is nothing short absurd. See here.

Maximum torpedo weapons power:
ISD-none
GCS-100 megatons normal; 500 megatons maximum seen (up to 1.4 GT torpedoes are seen in Voyager)

On a side note the proton torpedoes fired by X-wings were near worth a kiloton according to the technical journal, and they're still very small when you consider that they're self propelled, shield, and pack sensors and a computer.
Although ISDs don't have any apparently, it's good to notice that upscaled proton torps of this quality would be nothing to sneeze at.

Maximum shield strength:
ISD: 100 megatons
GCS: 1 - 14 GT (if we take GCS combat shields can withstand 10 torpedoes; possibly up to 126 GT - Constitution class shields were able to withstand 90 photon torpedoes at once in TOS)

Of course the shield figures can only match the firepower figures so they're expected to be as faulty.
ISDs seem to be tanks in that they can take many shots before going down. They probably count on their great acceleration and their forward arc cumulative firepower (which at least includes two heavy TLs, and all of them if the ship dives a bit) to cut the distance.

UFP ships don't seem to enjoy more than a very few torpedo hits before going down.

UFP ship still have a massive advantage: the firepower they pack for their size greatly outclasses the lumbering ISD and its energy weapons.
The UFP ship is more agile, is capable of great linear accelerations (but I'd say that's in a clear day, outside of any combat situation, it's more for traveling in and out of a system) and, above all, has the damned torpedoes, which can even be fired from the back, allowing the GCS to run away and shoot at the target at the same time.

[Mike DiCenso]

The ISD could have a firepower one OoM greater than if putting out everything in one single shot while powering nothing else.
The EU shows what could be a high end shot against an Earth-sized planet. The luminous pile of pixels could be a fireball's flash, or a fireball's width, the later making the firepower very large, but we can't tell.

It's too bad Watchdog isn't round right now as I do recall that there is a follow up to that scene showing the aftermath on the planet's surface, which showed less than impressive results. Also it does appear that the explosion is the result of several TL bolts, hence the multple "KA-CHOW!", and we see several bolts leaving the ship and heading towards the planet. In contrast the "Skin of Evil" big blast was the result of a single torpedo hit, the same for the expected results for the asteroid in "Rise".

Given the ROF we've seen on ISDs as well as the TCW-era Republic crusiers, I don't expect that more than a few hunded MT is possible per broadside in the best case scenario. Although, honestly, given what we have seen in the TCW CGI series, you'd be hard pressed to find examples of kiloton level firepower, let alone megatons from ship-mounted TLs.

UFP ships don't seem to enjoy more than a very few torpedo hits before going down.

UFP ship still have a massive advantage: the firepower they pack for their size greatly outclasses the lumbering ISD and its energy weapons.
The UFP ship is more agile, is capable of great linear accelerations (but I'd say that's in a clear day

In the TNG-era photon and later quantum torpedoes seem to have outstripped phasers in the raw firepower department, while in the TOS-era, phasers were the predominant weapon of choice, even it seems in terms of raw firepower. Prior to that in the ENT-era there wasa big flip-flop back and forth between beam weapons and torpedoes.

As for maneuverbility in combat, GCS in "Yesterday's Enteprise", "The Defector" and "Sacrifice of Angels" shows that when they have to, a GCS can basically pivot on axis and bring quite a bit of firepower to bear, or turn to maneuver out of a dangerous situation.
-Mike

[Mith]

Hmmm, I never really gave my opinion on ship firepower here.


GCS

Photon Torpedoes

Taking the median, photon torpedoes I take are 62 megatons for your standard yield, with a maximum yield of 496 megatons. Higher torpedoes, such as Class X are gigaton, presumably the type of torpedoes that Dalmar was refering to in Rising Apocalypse. Higher end, easily low gigatons though teratons are possible with orbital destruction.

I personally prefer the megaton and I take it that most torpedoes are 62-100 megatons when used against other targets, but the added antimatter makes it less effective in terms of hitting said target.

Overall my opinion is for a Type VI
Minimum: Tons
Typical: 62 megatons (25 isotons)
Max: 496 megatons (200 isotons)

Notice that I do use the TMs to identify what 'isoton' means. I should also note that it's possible that Starfleet uprated their photons during the Dominion War, but it wouldn't have been too much, less we reduce the Quantum Torpedoes effectiveness.

Phasers

Phasers are harder. I would say that the TM's suggestion of 100,000 TW (or effective terrwatts) is solid, especially when we look at the Daystrom's calculations regarding the cube (based on steel--which we know to be less powerful than tritanium-duranium, which is probably the composition) is 68,000 TW. That's roughly 24 megatons into the target per second. Or at least, for the main phaser array. Naturally the smaller arrays will decrease rapidly per the size factor.

I also think this works into the combat approach that ST takes. The phasers are far less effective against shields, so they use torpedoes, but the phasers are far more effective against matter. The reason being that even a 100 megatons, only about 16.67 is going towards the ship (although that figure changes based upon where you hit the ship, its course, and so forth--for example, hitting a ship in say, some sort of corner is incredibly effective). Meanwhile even despite the higher total yield of the nuke, the main phaser arrays would be dealing 7.33 more megatons than the nuke would.

I would also suspect that it's possible that the Phaser arrays can put out more than those sorts of figures, but that this is rarely done or some such simply for the reason of practicality; the arrays will burn out or something.


ISD

Heavy Turbo Lasers.
Minimum: 41,800 gigajoules (watts? It's a pulse...) or 10 kilotons
Maximum: 4.18 petajoules (again...it's a pulse...) or 1 megaton

The reasoning is mostly from the RotS novel, where we're told that a Venator could vaporize/obliterate a small town/city. Pretty much a figurative speech thing, but 1 megaton is the most it could be. To be honest, I don't really like the max figure here. Just for the sake of proton torpedoes.

I mean, these are 1 kt fusion warheads capable of, in large enough numbers, absolutely bashing the face of an ISD in--an ISD, the largest, most expensive mainfleet ship in all of Star Wars. It's absolutely absurd to think that the main guns of the ship are a thousand times stronger unless we assume that their shields to weapons ratio is completely fucked--or that there's a threshold where too many few kilotons would cause severe damage.

And hell, it's not even 1 kt of energy hitting the ships; it's a sixth of that. It's roughly seven hundred gigajoules. That's 59x times weaker than the lowest calculation shown. The only thing I can think of is that turbolasers do tend to go boom when they hit a target; they're not all that great in the direct energy part. It even makes sense if you accept the argument that they're some sort of funky plasma weapon. That reduces the effective yield to 6,966.67 against ships, which is much closer (9.95x stronger) and with say, two torpedoes and a squadron, it makes sense how say a proton barrage could utterly devistate an ISD.

So yeah, at most I'd say a 4.18 petajoules, but I'm looking at 41,800 gigajoules as being the more likely suspect. The lesser weapons naturally scale down. Your medium guns are probably less powerful than the proton torpedoes, certainly not more effective and your anti-ship guns are likely to be only a few hundred megajoules at best; ie, we've never seen anything remotely impressive come from these guys as far as weapon yields.

So...

HTLs: 41,800 GJs
MTLs: 700 GJs
LTLs: 200 MJs

EDIT: It should be noted that I also assume that ISDs can have similar ROTs as Venators, just that the visuals of the time were limited by the VFXs. So as demeaning as 1.67 kts into the target can sound demeaning, it's also taking into account that these things shoot pretty damn fast. Ie, even one shot per second is pretty good, especially with a two barreled weapon and mutliple of them targeting a ship (ie, eight).

Errr...still not much though I fear.

[Praeothmin]

EDIT: It should be noted that I also assume that ISDs can have similar ROTs as Venators,

Do you assume the same accuracy as well?
Don't forget they go hand-in-hand:
-Greater ROF, more missed shots... :)

[Mith]

EDIT: It should be noted that I also assume that ISDs can have similar ROTs as Venators,

Do you assume the same accuracy as well?
Don't forget they go hand-in-hand:
-Greater ROF, more missed shots... :)

Well how do you know that they don't intentionally miss in horrible life-threatening situations? Or that the UFP ships won't willingly fly into every single plasma bolt? I mean, they're very, very pretty.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The ISD could have a firepower one OoM greater than if putting out everything in one single shot while powering nothing else.
The EU shows what could be a high end shot against an Earth-sized planet. The luminous pile of pixels could be a fireball's flash, or a fireball's width, the later making the firepower very large, but we can't tell.

It's too bad Watchdog isn't round right now as I do recall that there is a follow up to that scene showing the aftermath on the planet's surface, which showed less than impressive results. Also it does appear that the explosion is the result of several TL bolts, hence the multple "KA-CHOW!", and we see several bolts leaving the ship and heading towards the planet.

That's all I remember he provided. This is where I picked the picture, after all.
There's not much evidence that it required several shots. Eventually you could still argue that the one single bolt we see isn't exactly headed for the spot we see in the second picture, and that's about it.

In contrast the "Skin of Evil" big blast was the result of a single torpedo hit, the same for the expected results for the asteroid in "Rise".

SoE has several problems that make taking its flashes at face value unreliable.
Rise is much better.

Given the ROF we've seen on ISDs as well as the TCW-era Republic crusiers, I don't expect that more than a few hunded MT is possible per broadside in the best case scenario.

Bizarrely I'd never put the firepower of a single salvo among a series of salvos, at a sustained ROF such as in TCWS, to ever approach that much firepower. I'd give it high KT at best.
However, I think it's possible for an ISD to "overcharge" a couple HTLs for one big punch that's worth a couple megatons, like say 1 digit per HTL, and 2 digits for such a full broadside, but then the guns are too hot for another go and power conduits may take damage in the process. It also makes targeting harder, due to the issue of holding so much energy and trying to channel it properly (the more energy you try to pack in the bolts, the more unstable they are and the more energy you need to spend in order to compress and control them).
Eventually such a supercharge might also allow the bolts to last longer and allow for greater ranges.

Although, honestly, given what we have seen in the TCW CGI series, you'd be hard pressed to find examples of kiloton level firepower, let alone megatons from ship-mounted TLs.

The series are enjoyable, but they clearly proved to be most absurd when visuals were involved. Thankfully, we can always upscale the multi-megajoules of fighters and other ground vehicles so they match the size of Star Destroyers to see that claiming gigajoules of firepower for the large starships doesn't make sense. We also have the note from the ROTS novelization about the vaporization of a small town or something.
Besides TCWS is the same series showing Venators slowing down rather impressively. That's why I generally pay much more attention to dialogue than visuals. It's a cartoon that's just as visually silly as the other Clone Wars, but in a different way.

UFP ships don't seem to enjoy more than a very few torpedo hits before going down.

UFP ship still have a massive advantage: the firepower they pack for their size greatly outclasses the lumbering ISD and its energy weapons.
The UFP ship is more agile, is capable of great linear accelerations (but I'd say that's in a clear day

In the TNG-era photon and later quantum torpedoes seem to have outstripped phasers in the raw firepower department, while in the TOS-era, phasers were the predominant weapon of choice, even it seems in terms of raw firepower. Prior to that in the ENT-era there wasa big flip-flop back and forth between beam weapons and torpedoes.

In ENT, the new photonic torps were the oddballs and apparently rare enough that the NX-01's crew would use them only when absolutely necessary.

As for maneuverbility in combat, GCS in "Yesterday's Enteprise", "The Defector" and "Sacrifice of Angels" shows that when they have to, a GCS can basically pivot on axis and bring quite a bit of firepower to bear, or turn to maneuver out of a dangerous situation.
-Mike

They can make impressive U-turns. We see that when Geordie takes control of the lower part of the E-D after both sections get separated, in "Arsenal of Freedom", and we also see two good examples of fluid and swift maneuverability here, here and here.

[Mike DiCenso]

The series are enjoyable, but they clearly proved to be most absurd when visuals were involved. Thankfully, we can always upscale the multi-megajoules of fighters and other ground vehicles so they match the size of Star Destroyers to see that claiming gigajoules of firepower for the large starships doesn't make sense. We also have the note from the ROTS novelization about the vaporization of a small town or something.
Besides TCWS is the same series showing Venators slowing down rather impressively. That's why I generally pay much more attention to dialogue than visuals. It's a cartoon that's just as visually silly as the other Clone Wars, but in a different way.

Yes, we have a potentially higher canon source that indicates the heavy TLs might be capable of single-digit kilotons or megatons depending on how you want to interpret what a "small town" is. But claiming that the TCW is a kiddie show and therefore we can ignore what is going on visually in it is silly handwaving that I don't think anyone outside of SDN would seriously make use of as an excuse. What will the excuse be when we see something like this happen in the live-action series (assuming that ever gets made)?
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Plus you don't see anything in TCW that you haven't seen in RotS or even in AotC.
The droids are also idiots in the movies, and the main difference is that anakin is actually a better character in TCW then in the other two movies, more mature, and a better leader (not to mention a better actor)... :)

[Mike DiCenso]

That's also very true, although that still does not stop them from making excuses.
-Mike

[Trinoya]

Wasn't the ICS for kids?

[Mike DiCenso]

Yes, that's also very true.
-Mike

[The Dude]

Wasn't the ICS for kids?

How many kids do you know that would understand the figures stated in it?

[Mike DiCenso]

So what? It is still an excuse to sneak in the non-canon wank, and more importantly it shows more Warsie hipocrasy and double-standards. One source can be ignored because it's a kiddie show, so it's not accurate with what it portrays... but this kiddie book over here is good because Saxton wrote it and put in super-high numbers. Feh.
-Mile

[The Dude]

*shrug* Its still canon, ignore it if you want. Much like I ignore everything Trek that isn't TOS.

[Mike DiCenso]

At best ICS is C-level canon, but is trumped by G-level and T-level canon, which the TCW CGI series is. It's as simple as that.
-Mike