Power Generation calculations

[Praeothmin]

I've been thinking about how CS came to calculate his ICS firepower figures, and how many Warsies use those, even though the effects of such power generation in an atmosphere would be devastating to the environment...
Since most Warsies ignore this, and say that the energy has to be generated, and don't explain where it goes since it magically doesn't go into its environment as Science would say it should, then couldn't ST also use this method?

In ST, we see Starships leave planetary surfaces many times:
-The BoP in ST IV;
-Voyager in "the 37s", "Demon", the episode where they have to land to repair Warp Coils, and in that episode where they are fired upon by alien ships while leaving the planetary surface.

In all these cases, the ships travel from the surface to high orbit, if not space, in a matter of seconds, just as fast as in SW...
Since these ships are using thrusters (as mentioned in "Demon" and "the 37s"), and nowhere in ST is mass-lightening mentioned at STL, then what kind of power would Voyager, a 700 000 metric ton ship, need to travel from the surface of an M-Class world (Earth) to space in a few seconds?
In a minute?
In an hour?

[Mr. Oragahn]

With thrusters, you need to expel mass against the ship's own mass, and at a certain speed, which is kinetic energy.
The calculation should start by leaving aside maneuvering thrusters, and considering the ship as if it took off like a rocket.
You'd probably also use the ship's mass without considering the fuel mass itself, to make calcs simpler and low end.
Orbit? say about 300 km high.
You'll have to look for the delta-v in order to put the ship on a stable orbit, at least.

[Jedi Master Spock]

nowhere in ST is mass-lightening mentioned at STL

Mass lightening is mentioned at STL. The E-D lightens the mass of a moon at STL speeds using its warp field, and DS9 is moved to its new position using mass lightening at STL.

It doesn't eliminate all the energy requirements to leave the surface of a planet, but that's a requirement that both SW and ST have to deal with. It's less power than required to reposition mass at light speed six planetary diameters from the surface of a planet.

[Praeothmin]

nowhere in ST is mass-lightening mentioned at STL

Mass lightening is mentioned at STL. The E-D lightens the mass of a moon at STL speeds using its warp field, and DS9 is moved to its new position using mass lightening at STL.

It doesn't eliminate all the energy requirements to leave the surface of a planet, but that's a requirement that both SW and ST have to deal with. It's less power than required to reposition mass at light speed six planetary diameters from the surface of a planet.

Let me rephrase that:
Nowhere is mass-lightening mentioned as being in use normally when traveling at STL...
The two examples you've mentioned, JMS, have been covered many times, and in both times, they were deemed exceptional measures, as modifications needed to be made to allow it to happen...
As far as ships traveling at STL, I've never seen any mention of any mass-lightening being used...
Only in Warp...

[Mike DiCenso]

This has been mentioned before, but in VOY's "Demon" it is stated thatVoyager does use "anti grav" thrusters" take off and probably for landing as well. How exactly these thrusters work is never made clear, but whatever the method, there is no visible sign of flame or plasma in the atmospheres of the planets Voyager has flown through as reaction-based thrusters would, and people can stand in relatively close proximity to the ship and watch it take off as seen in "The 37s".

This is remarkably similar to what is shown in Star Wars when everything from the Millennium Falcon and the Republic capital ships are shown taking off and landing in atmospheres in ANH, AoTC, and RoTS.
-Mike

[359]

Let me rephrase that:
Nowhere is mass-lightening mentioned as being in use normally when traveling at STL...
The two examples you've mentioned, JMS, have been covered many times, and in both times, they were deemed exceptional measures, as modifications needed to be made to allow it to happen...
As far as ships traveling at STL, I've never seen any mention of any mass-lightening being used...
Only in Warp...

If I remember correctly there was some reference in Voyager to subspace fields being involved in impulse travel. Anyway, one can achieve FTL velocities using the impulse engines which would suggest that subspace fields (mass lightning or whatever) are involved in impulse drive. But as far as I know there are no references to mass lightening/subspace fields being involved with standard thrusters.

As for the energy requirement to put Voyager into orbit, it should be on the order of (E=0.5*700000000 kg*(11200 m/s)^2, E=4.3904*10^16 J) 43,904,000 gigajoules assuming no mass lightening etc... That should be easily accomplished by a starship given their known power output. Over a minute that would amount to an average output of 732,000 gigawatts.

Actually, looking over these numbers, how did anyone get anything close to what is claimed for Star Destroyers (hundreds of gigatons)? Even 1,000 times the mass of Voyager yields only 4.3904*10^10 gigajoules (10.5 Gt). Using the Venitor (≈11,000,000 Mg), the biggest thing we ever see takeoff, yields (E=0.5*11000000000 kg*(11200 m/s)^2, E=6.8992*10^17 J) 689,920,000 GJ (0.1649 Gt) total.

This has been mentioned before, but in VOY's "Demon" it is stated thatVoyager does use "anti grav" thrusters" take off and probably for landing as well. How exactly these thrusters work is never made clear, but whatever the method, there is no visible sign of flame or plasma in the atmospheres of the planets Voyager has flown through as reaction-based thrusters would, and people can stand in relatively close proximity to the ship and watch it take off as seen in "The 37s".

Logically, unless otherwise stated, anti-gravity would still consume the same amount of energy to lift something as it would with chemical a propellant as it would still need to be constantly counteracting the gravity just as in a chemical rocket, the difference is that we don't know the method of how it achieves lift. Not that it will necessarily consume less power.

[Praeothmin]

My problem with the magical Anti-grav, in ST or SW, is this one:

Where does the generated power go, since we see no environmental effects during take off?
Where is it magically diverted to?

Actually, looking over these numbers, how did anyone get anything close to what is claimed for Star Destroyers (hundreds of gigatons)?

He apparently used his calculated accelerations to discern power generation, and then assigned 10% of that to weapons since they are warships...

[Lucky]

My problem with the magical Anti-grav, in ST or SW, is this one:

Where does the generated power go, since we see no environmental effects during take off?
Where is it magically diverted to?

Star Trek artifisial gravity is directional, and Voyager was shown to kick up large dust clouds when taking off and landing. One need to keep in mind that Voyager never landed anywhere it appeared it would sink into the ground.

TUCKER: You're upside down, Ensign. 


TRAVIS: (sitting on ceiling) Yes, sir. 


TUCKER: Care to explain why? 


TRAVIS: When I was a kid, we called it the sweet spot. Every ship's got one. 


TUCKER: Sweet spot? 


TRAVIS: It's usually about halfway between the grav-generator and the bow plate. Grab a hold of the hatch. No, on either side. Now push off. Push off. 


TUCKER: Wow! (finds himself in zero gravity before falling onto the ceiling) 


TRAVIS: It takes practice. Ever slept in zero G?

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... m=4&page=9

Star Trek artificial gravity control systems can push as well as pull. The systems can make it so you fall up.

JANEWAY: Ion lightning. Maybe we'd better try the fifth planet and come back here when things have cleared up. 


CHAKOTAY: I think we took a lightning hit. Attitude control is out. 


JANEWAY: Switching to manual. 


CHAKOTAY: The navigational system's out. 


JANEWAY: Reverse engines, full thrusters. 


COMPUTER: Warning. Hydrazene gas leak. 


JANEWAY: Altitude twelve kilometres, hull temperature four thousand degrees. We have to reduce speed. 


CHAKOTAY: I'll try the emergency anti-grav thrusters. Kathryn. Kathryn! Kathryn! Kathryn! No! 


COMPUTER: Warning. Hydrazene gas levels at one hundred twelve parts per million. Begin evacuation procedures.

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... =30&page=4


http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... 37s093.jpg


http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... 37s094.jpg

Voyager appears to kick up some dust as it lands, and where ever Voyager landed the ground was oddly solid to be able to support its weight.

TUVOK: Four of the away team are in Sickbay, Captain. I'm trying to get a lock on the fifth. It is Ensign Kim or rather, one of the ensigns Kim. The ship is continuing to sink. 


JANEWAY: Then there's no time. We've got to get back into orbit. We'll worry about Harry or whoever he is once we're up. Bring anti-grav thrusters online. 


TUVOK: Thrusters enabled. 


JANEWAY: Inertial dampers to flight configuration. 


TUVOK: Dampers reconfigured. All stations report ready. 


JANEWAY: Initiating ascent. I need power to the thrusters. 


TUVOK: We are being restrained by an electromagnetic force. 


JANEWAY: Compensate. 


TUVOK: No effect. Decks fourteen and fifteen are submerged. The ship is continuing to sink. 


JANEWAY: Report. 


TUVOK: Thrusters are offline due to an overload. Decks thirteen through fifteen are submerged. If we don't lift off soon, the hull will begin to corrode. 


JANEWAY: Bridge to Engineering.

Voyager landing in Demon
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 74&page=10
Voyager sinks a little into the ground, but the ground seems otherwise solid.

A good look at Voyager after landing, and a good look at the area it landed in.
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... on_322.jpg

Voyager taking off, and kicking up a dust cloud.
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 74&page=24

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... =74&page=5


http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ale099.jpg

It is rather odd how Voyager is surrounded in certain areas by smooth soil.

[359]

My problem with the magical Anti-grav, in ST or SW, is this one:

Where does the generated power go, since we see no environmental effects during take off?
Where is it magically diverted to?

I think that is part of the point, we do not know how these things work, only that they do and what they do.


[quote="Praeothmin]He apparently used his calculated accelerations to discern power generation, and then assigned 10% of that to weapons since they are warships...[/quote]Ah acceleration. The main problem I have with the high acceleration figures is that when you first see the ships taking off and flying away their speed = slow. Then later when we see them in orbit their speed still equals slow. Albeit slightly less slow, but not at a speed which would warent thousands of g's. So unless they suddenly speed up and slow back down, they should be traveling at a velocity between Vinitial and Vfinial for the duration of the journey.

[Mike DiCenso]

That's one of the big issues that we've been discussing in the ICS related threads. When the ships in ST or SW are shown lifting off, and then are shown in orbit or accelerating straight away from the planets in most cases, they do not appear to be going any faster than a real-life spacecraft. We also have quite a few jump cuts between just after when a spacecraft lifts off to when it's next shown in orbit.

We rarely, if ever get a chance to follow a ship from planet to space all the way, or nearly so. When we do, like in VOY's "Dragon's Teeth", the ship takes several minutes because it's under attack and being forced from ascending higher. In the case of the E-1701 in TOS' "Tomorrow is Yesterday", the ship is damaged and underpowered.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

What about the BoP in ST IV?
It flies straight up in the upper atmosphere before going to Warp...
How long does that take?

[Mike DiCenso]

Actually, no. They lift off from the park (with a surprising amount of dust and turbulence in the process), then fly around trying to acquire George and Gracie's transponder signals, and the cross 600 nautical miles in less than two minutes through dense lower atmosphere! After they beam up the whales, the BoP is maneuvered around just above cloud top, and goes to warp.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

I remember that, but that's what I meant...

They still go from sea level to above the cloud layers, which are normally located at what, a couple thousand feet high, in very little time...

[Mike DiCenso]

I'm not sure that's really valid since we don't get to observe really the rise upwards of the BoP once George and Gracie are saved. There's at least 30 seconds or more that goes by before the cut to the exterior to show the ship wheeling about to point upwards and then jump to warp.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Well, it's the same thing for all the ships in SW...
We never see them actually fly up throught he atmopshere, only point upwards and slowly start off, but then Warsies all use this as acceleration examples...
So why couldn't this be used in this case?