What is the mass of the Death Stars?

[Praeothmin]

Allow me to point this tiny single objection:

If self-generated antigrav technology were indicative of a fully functional reactor, then it would be foolish to have it working.

Need I repeat, once again, that sensors were jammed, preventing detection of anti-grav or not?

[2046]

Allow me to point this tiny single objection:

If self-generated antigrav technology were indicative of a fully functional reactor, then it would be foolish to have it working.

Need I repeat, once again, that sensors were jammed, preventing detection of anti-grav or not?

No, because it is irrelevant. Remember the ruse.

And to extend what I said, the ruse only needed to last as long as the making of contact with the Rebel ground team. Once the ground team was thought finished off and the fleet at Sullust was known to be en route, what ought to have happened is that the station should've raised its own shields, activated its own jamming*, and so on. That would satisfy your point of view that the station was fully operational.

However, that is not what we actually see.

Further, my point you quoted was merely an if-then. If antigrav = fully functioning battlestation, then ruse = suck.

But, instead of acknowledging that and responding to it, you kept up your own argument. What you should've done is noted that the only thing explicitly said to be not working per the Rebel briefing were the weapons systems (and, logically, the shields).

Ergo, my point was moot. Self-sustaining antigrav by the Death Star would not have caused ruse=suck, because they already believed the reactor to be functioning and thus, presumably, providing power.

* I'd forgotten about the communication ship jamming sub-plot from the novel. Oops. Not sure how I feel about that anyway, though.

[Praeothmin]

So, in other words, you agree that Lucky's hypothesis is unnecessary and adds invalid assumptions...

[sonofccn]

You are ignoring the fact that Star Wars ships, and even the first Death Star had more then one reactor.

Lando said: "Lock on to the strongest power source, it should be the power generator"

Even Granting multiple reactors it would still be uneedingly complicated to assume some of those were working while others had to be brought on line later and unstated.

In addition "power sources" in a moon sized battlestation filled with strike craft and systems utilizing the "power generator" output doesn't mandant that there be secondary reactors.

Where is jamming talked about in the movie versions of ANH, and ROTS?

I didn't say movies I said Movies/novelizations which are still G-canon. But Chewie is ordered to jam a tie fighter's transmission in ANH

In addition we have this

" All short- and long-range scopes are blank" Blue ten reported tensely."Too much interference here. Blue Five, can you see them from hwere you are?"

Page 242 of the trilogy 25th anniversary addition

The same distortion fields that confued rebel insrumentation now did likewise to the two TIE fighters.

Same place

"There's still too much ECM. Artoo can't raise the Temple. I think the only reason we can even talk to each other is that we're practically side by side."

If you read the sentence you quoted you would know I was talking about the degree of the effects.

I would disagree. There seemed to be two parts. One stating jamming was "seldom" used and the other arguing ROTJ's case was unusually strong. With some of the highest cannon stating jamming was employed in three pivotal battles of the hexology I do find your statment jamming is "seldom" used to be in error.

The problem is that jamming isn't standard for Star Wars space battles.

The problem is Lando's response suggests that it is, it was only his wondering why the Imperials were jamming that clued him in on the trap.

The Rebels had only one chance at the DS2 and the Emperor at the same time. The plan was to try to catch the Imps by surprise, but if the Rebels are already there, and they think they have time they might send down more troops.

No. They can't bring down the shield at all hence the commando team. So if it is still up they can't harm the DS2 or the Emperor and a choice of either bailing out or waiting around for an Imperial fleet to arrive, which would likely be dispatched when the commando team was thwarted/captured.

[Lucky]

Let's recap what we know:

Yes let's recap.

-The DS was Jamming sensors with powerful enough equipment that an impregnable shield was not detected...

We are never told what the source of the jamming was. You are assuming that the source of the jamming was the Death Star 2. There is a big base on Endor that might be the source, or maybe one of those Star Destroyers was outfitted for ECM, or maybe even an unseen cloaked ship.

-The DS's Superlaser was fully charged when the Imperial fleet arrived...

We see the Death Star 2's superlaser fire two or three times on ships. There is no reason the Superlaser was working at full power, or that the main reactor was at full power.

-The DS had all standard atmospheric forcefields, Artificial Gravity and life support fro thousands upon thousands of construction workers running...

The standard force fields do not require the DS2's main reactor to be online. Remember that in the first Death Star there were smaller reactors powering things like tractor beams.

We don't know how much of the Death Star2 was habitable. From what we see in the movie it is possible only a tiny fraction of the Death Star 2 was actually functional.

-The Emperor states: "Now witness the power of THIS FULLY OPERATIONAL BATTLESTATION...

He also said he had his best troops on Endor, and was insane since episode one. Beyond a tiny bit of a half finished battle station being habitable, and the superlaser being able to destroy ships the DS2 wasn't actually operational.

The Emperor was clearly exaggerating since the station was only about half built. It had no shields of any kind, no weapons beyond the superlaser

And you would have us believe that for some reason, the anti-grav wasn't activated?

The DS2 was only a little more then half built. It's doubtful it had more then about half it's propulsion system installed at most.

That the shield generator, which has never even once been referred to as the "Shield and Anti-grav Generator", was also supporting the DS?

The Death Star II is not parked in a naturally synchronous orbit above the Forest Moon, so remaining over one point on the moon's surface requires a considerable uplift force against Endor's gravity. Initially, the station was supported by a repulsorlift field projected from the same ground facility that would eventually supply the station with its defensive shield. Tales told by Ewok shamans relate that the extra weight on the moon's crust had dramatic side-effects, including massive groundquakes, land that shifted and buckled, and lakes that spilled out of their natural basins.

The quote provided by General Donner contradicts this, and the fact the shield stopped solid matter means the shield its shield could possibly be used to lift and move the Death Star 2 around.

I don't buy it, and niether does Occam's Razor...

You are making a lot of assumptions. You are just assuming you are right, but no evidence to back it up.

[Lucky]

Even Granting multiple reactors it would still be uneedingly complicated to assume some of those were working while others had to be brought on line later and unstated.

In addition "power sources" in a moon sized battlestation filled with strike craft and systems utilizing the "power generator" output doesn't mandant that there be secondary reactors.

It seems like every Star Wars ship has main reactors that can be disabled by enemy fire, and yet the ships don't lose gravity, lighting, life support, and stuff like that.
2:48ish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhAq2RNN ... re=related

There is no reason to assume the second Death Star did not follow a pattern we see repeated in every ship including the first Death Star.

I didn't say movies I said Movies/novelizations which are still G-canon. But Chewie is ordered to jam a tie fighter's transmission in ANH

We aren't talking about a damping field here. The Falcon just needs to put out enough static that they can't hear the less powerful T.I.E. Fighter.

In addition we have this

" All short- and long-range scopes are blank" Blue ten reported tensely."Too much interference here. Blue Five, can you see them from hwere you are?"

Page 242 of the trilogy 25th anniversary addition

The same distortion fields that confued rebel insrumentation now did likewise to the two TIE fighters.

Same place

N-canon

"There's still too much ECM. Artoo can't raise the Temple. I think the only reason we can even talk to each other is that we're practically side by side."

Not the same as ROTJ, and when does this supposedly happen?

I would disagree. There seemed to be two parts. One stating jamming was "seldom" used and the other arguing ROTJ's case was unusually strong. With some of the highest cannon stating jamming was employed in three pivotal battles of the hexology I do find your statment jamming is "seldom" used to be in error.

Jamming is seldom used. It only comes up a hand full of times at best. It certainly is not a standard tactic since it is seemingly never used during most of the battles during the Clone Wars.

The one time it is used Anikin knew they had found something huge in Down Fall of a Droid.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Duel_of_the_Droids

Rebels = Lucky Idiots

The problem is Lando's response suggests that it is, it was only his wondering why the Imperials were jamming that clued him in on the trap.

Two or three times out seven movies, and about 4 seasons of a TV series. 7 movies and 4 seasons verses one character who is nervous? I go with Lando just misspoke.

No. They can't bring down the shield at all hence the commando team. So if it is still up they can't harm the DS2 or the Emperor and a choice of either bailing out or waiting around for an Imperial fleet to arrive, which would likely be dispatched when the commando team was thwarted/captured.

There is nothing stopping the Rebels from landing a second team.

[2046]

A.

You are ignoring the fact that Star Wars ships, and even the first Death Star had more then one reactor.

Lando said: "Lock on to the strongest power source, it should be the power generator"

Even Granting multiple reactors it would still be uneedingly complicated to assume some of those were working while others had to be brought on line later and unstated.

In addition "power sources" in a moon sized battlestation filled with strike craft and systems utilizing the "power generator" output doesn't mandant that there be secondary reactors.

From the RotJ novelization, regarding the Executor crash:

"By the time the whole exothermic conglomerate finally crashed into the side of the Death Star, the impact was momentous enough to actually jolt the battle station, setting off internal explosions and thunderings all through its network of reactors, munitions, and halls.

For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos."

Numerous reactors were in use. Maybe the DS3 would've gone all Borg and had exclusively decentralized reactors. That might've been a bright idea. ;-)

B. The novelizations may be whatever the devil N-canon is, but they are also Lucas-level canon unlike EU materials, albeit a low rung thereof.

C. The jamming in the novelization came from a specially outfitted communication ship which was destroyed during the course of the battle.

This concept does not appear in the film or final script. Indeed, the end of jamming seems to coincide with the explosion of the Endor ground facility.

As such, while I figure it's canon that there are communication ships with excellent jamming capability, I am leaning toward the idea that since it was more or less written out of the later script versions that it wasn't "really there" doing jamming.

[Praeothmin]

The quote provided by General Donner contradicts this, and the fact the shield stopped solid matter means the shield its shield could possibly be used to lift and move the Death Star 2 around.

Not seen in the movie, not noticed at all...

You are making a lot of assumptions.

Funny, I was thinking the same about you... :)

You are just assuming you are right, but no evidence to back it up.

And aside from General Donner's quote, you had nothing but your assumptions as well...

And the General's quote does not add up, logically speaking...
If the DS did not have operational Anti-grav, as Donner's source said, we once again come to my question:
Why did the rebels attack the DS at all, instead of just sabotaging the Shield/Anti-Grav Emmitter and let the DS crash in the planet?

They attacked it because they knew it needed to be destroyed, because its anti-grav unit was functioning, and the only non-functioning equipment, according to Rebel spies, were its weapons and shield...
We saw how wring they were about the weapons...

[2046]

For reference, assuming a standard brick-like drop at standard Earth gravity, it would take about 7.5 minutes for the Death Star to fall out of the sky assuming a 1000km orbit, and her velocity on impact would be almost 4.5km/s.

[Lucky]

Not seen in the movie, not noticed at all...

And there is nothing that contradicts the quote in the movies.

Funny, I was thinking the same about you... :)

Sadly my stance is because I refuse to make assumptions.

And aside from General Donner's quote, you had nothing but your assumptions as well...

You're right, all I have is the movies showing a Death Star 2 far from fully operational, and helplessly floating away from Endor just before it explodes/implodes.

And the General's quote does not add up, logically speaking...
If the DS did not have operational Anti-grav, as Donner's source said, we once again come to my question:
Why did the rebels attack the DS at all, instead of just sabotaging the Shield/Anti-Grav Emmitter and let the DS crash in the planet?

The quote posted by General Donner talks about things that happened before the Rebel assault.
_____
You must have missed the part about the Emperor feeding the Rebels intelligence. He wanted the Rebels to think they had an easy target.
_____
Even if we assume the Death Star 2 had working anti-Gravity systems it does not mean the thing could actually move on it's own yet, or that it would even crash into Endor if it lost anti-gravity, and the movie shows the DS2 floating away from Endor after the shield went down.

Things don't always crash into planets. The Moon for example is always getting farther from the Earth.

They attacked it because they knew it needed to be destroyed, because its anti-grav unit was functioning, and the only non-functioning equipment, according to Rebel spies, were its weapons and shield...
We saw how wring they were about the weapons...

Watch the movie again. The DS2 was only about 50% finished at best. The Rebels attacked for two reasons: Kill the Emperor, and destroy the super weapon. They only had one chance because once the Empire knew they knew about the DS2 the Empire would up

[2046]

If the DS did not have operational Anti-grav, as Donner's source said, we once again come to my question:
Why did the rebels attack the DS at all, instead of just sabotaging the Shield/Anti-Grav Emmitter and let the DS crash in the planet?

I continue to regard this as an excellent point. However, it is not without counterpoints.

1. Per the novelization, there was excitement at the idea that the Rebellion finally had a "shot at the Emperor." Minutes of time to escape the falling Death Star would not be the best way to accomplish this. Of course, this same issue exists with the minutes of time to attack the station reactor after the shield is brought down.

Either way, then, the Emperor had minutes in which to make an escape. But by having a fleet there and by destroying the Death Star, it was at least possible to impede any such escape effort.

A smart evil overlord would've gotten the heck out of there as soon as the shield went down. Only Luke's sacrificial capture made it possible for the Emperor to have other things going on to prevent him from departing.

2. Even at 4.5km/s impact speed, it seems possible that certain finished and processed materials, and perhaps even whole parts, might survive and be salvageable for a Death Star III. Here I am pondering something akin to the Xindi superweapon's highly refined kemocite . . . if you can just tear into the broken hull of the DS2 and strip it off a component, or even grab the whole component, you don't need to go through the rigor of remanufacturing it.

However, if you can atomize the station, you're golden.

[Picard]

Add to that the fact that Empire uses God-knows-what materials in construction... plus, station that is some 160 kilometers across isn't exactly lightweight. An asteroid few kilometers across can cause trouble if it strikes Earth, so... althought asteroid would move quite a bit faster.

[sonofccn]

It seems like every Star Wars ship has main reactors that can be disabled by enemy fire, and yet the ships don't lose gravity, lighting, life support, and stuff like that.
2:48ish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhAq2RNN ... re=related

There is no reason to assume the second Death Star did not follow a pattern we see repeated in every ship including the first Death Star.

Which misses the other part of what I said, with multiple reactors it is still an additional assumption to assume some are on and the other isn't at X time and that it was merely brought online without any indication in X+Y time.

We aren't talking about a damping field here. The Falcon just needs to put out enough static that they can't hear the less powerful T.I.E. Fighter.

It is refered to as jamming same as what Lando refered too. I see no reason to assume Jamming means something completely differnt.

N-canon

What is N-Canon? Are you arguing it isn't G-canon?

Not the same as ROTJ, and when does this supposedly happen?

At the start of ROTS during the big fleet battle. And it is still jamming being employed in a fleet battle and assuming the "interference" is of a radically differnt nature would be an assumption.

Two or three times out seven movies, and about 4 seasons of a TV series. 7 movies and 4 seasons verses one character who is nervous? I go with Lando just misspoke.

Three times for three major naval battles as each involved larger fleets, well the DS1 was only one "craft" but its was big, than we typically see in the Clone Wars to the best of my recollection. That might explain the observed difference and keep Lando from being an idiot.

There is nothing stopping the Rebels from landing a second team.

GENERAL MADINE
We have stolen a small Imperial shuttle. Disguised as a cargo ship, and
using a secret
Imperial code, a strike team will land on the moon and deactivate the
shield generator.

HAN
Shuttle Tydirium requesting deactivation of the deflector shield.

CONTROLLER (over radio)
Shuttle Tydirium, transmit the clearance code for shield passage

PIETT (into comlink)
Shuttle Tydirium, what is your cargo and destination?

PILOT VOICE (HAN) (filtered)
Parts and technical crew for the forest moon.

Somehow I doubt Ackbar in Home One will be as convincing no matter how good of a clearance code he has.

[Praeothmin]

Sadly my stance is because I refuse to make assumptions.

Yet you assume the DS has more offline systems then whsat the Rebels say...
You assume that when Lando talks about jamming, it is not jamming, but some sort of anti-field detecting wachammagig...
You assume the Emperor is lying when he says that his best troops are on Endor, while we know for a fact that Stormtroopers are bad, even elite ones...


So you see, you do in fact assume many things...

[Lucky]

Yet you assume the DS has more offline systems then whsat the Rebels say...

What systems do the Rebels claim are online?

We only see:
Life support
artificial gravity
short range communications
basic sensors
the superlaser
Maybe some maneuvering system, but since we don't see the DS2 do much after the shield generator blows we can't be sure.

The DS2 was only about half built assuming the Emperor planned on actually finishing it. Most of the systems should be off line, and most of it should not be habitable.

You assume that when Lando talks about jamming, it is not jamming, but some sort of anti-field detecting wachammagig...

I'm merely stating what is clearly shown in the movie.

It's ECM so subtle that it makes sensors not work without anyone realize it. That isn't jamming. That is complex electronic warfare. I don't expect a gambler to used proper terminology. Jamming is just a matter of sending out powerful singles similar to shining a flashlight in someone's eye, but that isn't what Lando was talking about.

You assume the Emperor is lying when he says that his best troops are on Endor, while we know for a fact that Stormtroopers are bad, even elite ones...

With what we see on Hoth and the Tantive IV I think the Emperor was wrong for some reason. The Troopers on Endor were undisciplined idiots, but Storm Troopers seen before seemed to at least be properly equipped and disciplined even if they couldn't hit a Star Destroyer at 20 paces. If the Empire did not have better troops then there is something very wrong.

Palpatine lies all the time to get what he wants, and he wanted Luke to fear and hate, and to that end everything he says is meant to encourage that in Luke. He did the same thing to Anakin.

So you see, you do in fact assume many things...

It's all there in the movies.