Star Trek Low end

[sonofccn]

You showed a quote that states all energy is effected seemingly equally by the damping field

Nope. I gave a quote where O'brien talks about a transponder being blocked by some dampening field. You assume it effects everything but O'Brien doesn't state that.

A known property of damping fields is that they make sensors less effective.

Some fields yes. However you are not a starfleet engineer and can hardly say anything about all force fields much less this one. Provide evidence this one is doing anything like you want it to or give it up.

They do this because both active and passive sensors rely on energy hitting the sensors after hitting the object being scanned.

I do find it rich you are trying to instruct me on the workings of a fictional devices.

Damping field as stated in battle lines lower the amount of energy reaching the sensor.

Your for some reason assuming this field is magicly dampening the sensor beams. Making gross assumptions based off of nonchalant technobabble spouted by O'Brien, I meaqn seriously I can jam radio signals which is all O'Brien was talking about and not interfere with radar.

Communication systems work the same way as sensors.

Funny then sensors actually worked but com didn't.

Given you claim to have been researching the episode your thoroughness leaves much to be desired.

Whoah there nelly. I never claimed to have studied the episode, this is your brainchild and I've only looked at the evidence you presented which as usual is minimal.

But regardless what does the above prove? EM interferes with sensors? Already known, if you are trying to argue inferior sensors at close range and therefore the power build up may be wrong you'll need more evidence.

You do realize active sensors like radar for example use transmitters, and send out transmissions?

Yes and so do television broadcastes. That doesn't mean jamming someone's radio would by default jink out radar and television.

Has there ever been a time when sensors were working right, and the target was not trying to hide that they could not easily identify the species?

Doesn't matter if there is or there isn't. Its a descepency not evidence sensors are being blocked.

The evidence from the episode says the sensors weren't working right even before the damping field,

From a distance hence having to get up close to the planet.

A Transmission is just energy given off by a transmitter. Energy is energy, we have no reason to believe the damping field would know the difference between sunlight and a laser, or could effect one but not the other.

Considering the planet is not a pitch black hole I think we can safely conclude light isn't being affected. And I like how you are expert on an alien piece of hardware which doesn't actually exist. Is there a special class you take?

In the episode "Battle Lines" broadband was used to describe the damping field. In other words the damping field effects a wide range of frequencies in a spectrum

Yes presumbly com frequencies unless you have evidence otherwise.

For your theory to be correct we need to ignore evidence.

What evidence? So far you have provided zilch beyond your assumptions and theories. No evidence.

There is no evidence of a shield interaction.

There is no evidence there wasn't a shield interaction.

Ergo we assume the most simplist and most likely outcome, that the shields were battered down. Occam's razor, no need to add assumptios to a scenario.

Between the known capabilities of damping fields in Star Trek, and known weapons in the area we can not rule out the possibility that the shields did nothing.

Rule out the possibility? No but we can't rule of the possibility of may things from Sisko being a duplicate from an alternate universe to Q droping the shuttle for giggles. The probability however of your desired scenario is fairly low with little if any evidence supporting.

The theory needs to fit the known facts.

The simplest theory would be the Runabout was drained of energy without the crew realizing it, and the weapon knocked the Runabout out of orbit.

Nope that a complex assumption because you assume something is occuring no one comments on.

That theory takes the damping field

A field you are assuming is affecting the Runabout another assumption

and the apparent lack of obvious damage to the Runabout into account

Assuming the damage wasn't caused by the weapon

no loose ends like your theory does,

There are no loose ends. The Sat shoots, the Runabout falls. Thats it.

There is also the minor question of how well the sensors were working at the time given the stated fact that they are said not to be working at 100%, and the crew did not notice the damping field.

You have not proved they are inside the field, you can't hold up them not detecting your made up assumption as proof of your made up assumption.

Then there is the fact an energy weapon inside a damping field should not work well if at all. It's why the TR-118 was designed

Prove they were inside the field, prove the field interacts with weapon fire etc. That some damping fields bother weapons is not proof this one is.

There is no visible damage on the Runabout that would account for the crash.

In your opinion.

Note the hull thickness. We should see some nice holes from the weapon somewhere.

Once more may I remind you that you are not an expert on 24th century weapons nor starfleet Runabouts. It is not your place to say what the weapon should have done.

Given you theories you don't actually care about the facts of the matter since you don't bother to do basic research.

Honestly Lucky can you not debate without dipping into insulting banter. This is your theory Lucky, not mine. I will not dig for your supporting evidence, you have too.

You make the assumption there was even an energy weapon fired.

I said it was likely an energy weapon but I have not assumed it must be. Merely that it is tied to a gigawatt of energy build up.

The damping field makes it unlikely that the weapon was an energy weapon.

Prove it and the shuttle are inside the field.

All the systems on the Runabout all fail at once which does not matching weapon I can recall.

That isn't my problem.

The event as shown is everything on the Runabout failing after being hit by an unseen and unnamed weapon even though much of it is unlikely to have been damaged by the attack while inside a damping field that is inside an area that already plays havoc with sensors, and everyone kind of panicking as they crash.

The shuttle suffered massive damage from an alien Sat-weapon. Period. Everything else is your assumption you have not supported.

Given the sensors not working well is a major plot point

At range. O'Brien intended to scan in orbit of each planet or the range in which the sat was scanned at. So no dice buddy.

and it is noted on the planet that energy weapons don't work the way they are suppose to inside the damping field a torpedo of some sort makes sense.

Please provide evidence the Sat and Runabout is in the freaking field which is being projected onto the planet below.

SHEL-LA: The Ennis stopped using directed energy weapons centuries ago. Not damaging enough.

Which is interesting.

(BANG! Enter the enemy, firing. There are casualties on both sides. Kira runs for a dropped phaser)
SISKO: Major!
(Kira fires at the cave roof, bringing rocks down on their attackers.)

Not having access to the video at the moment I can't be absolute but it looks like she just fired a phaser. So much for energy dampening.

It was specifically stated in the episode the sensors on the Runabout were not working right because of the damping field and delta delta radiation from the stars.

Which you just now provided instead of presenting that front up and it still doesn't prove sensors couldn't get a proper reading on the power build up.

What the differences are between the Particle Beam Rifle and the standard Star Fleet Compression Rifle is vague, but the Particle Beam Rifle can't be drastically better, or Voyager's crew would have logically been using them. The way they talk, I'd assume the difference was similar to that of a M-16 and an AK-47.

Perhaps the whole wrongful accusation of the guy and his sucide ruined the deal? :)

Lie, and there are other types of transmissions beside communication like sensors, and ultimately a transmission is just an energy pulse.

Or in another words transmission is a vague word and we should listen to the rest of the context O'Brien was talking of to figure out what he meant. Or we can assume the maximum just because.

The planet/Moon is seemingly in perpetual twilight.

The fact the planet can be seen from orbit or that you can see anything means light is not being dampened by 99%.

Energy weapons that should be able to blast holes through people or worse can't.

Uh phasers typically don't blast holes through people. Another variation between episodes which you seem to have issues understanding.

Now you want us to believe that a damping field shown to be effective on a wide variety of energies will magically ignore transmissions from the sensors, but it gets better for my case...

I see no reason to assume things beyond stated in the episode. I see no reason to assume the absolutely maximum possible interpentation of every word O'Brien says.

because it is specifically stated the satellites are messing with the sensors.

Thank you! At last you finally provided evidence! Joyish day, praise the Lord! There now all you have to do is prove the field is being projected above the planet and that its affecting the shuttle and you will have a case.

You are the one making assumptions about Battle Lines without being able to back it up, and you are engaging in fallacious argument.

I am assuming what happened is what happened. You are assuming its a Dominon Sat firing polarion shield breeching torpedoes which only affected the shuttle due to energy dampening. Yours is the more complex series of assumptions needlessly complicating what happened in order to explain the Runabout crashing.

[Praeothmin]

I am assuming what happened is what happened. You are assuming its a Dominon Sat firing polarion shield breeching torpedoes which only affected the shuttle due to energy dampening. Yours is the more complex series of assumptions needlessly complicating what happened in order to explain the Runabout crashing

It gladens me to see I'm not the only to see the flaws in his theory, though you are a lot more patient than I in dealing with this... :)

[sonofccn]

Okay that looks like a phaser being fired on planet inside the energy field so yes it appears this dampening field is quite paritcular in what it effects.

It gladens me to see I'm not the only to see the flaws in his theory, though you are a lot more patient than I in dealing with this... :)

You honor me sir but I think the word you are searching for is stubborn.

[Praeothmin]

Okay that looks like a phaser being fired on planet inside the energy field so yes it appears this dampening field is quite paritcular in what it effects.

Yes, apparently that energy dampening field only affects ship's shields, and not weapons, or sensors, for some reason...

[Picard]

Not having access to the video at the moment I can't be absolute but it looks like she just fired a phaser. So much for energy dampening.

I recall that they mentioned "regenerative phasers" in one DS9 episode - one with that shiny projectile rifle with transporter and high-caliber bullets. Regenerative phasers are called that beacouse they can work in dampening fields.

So much for energy dampening, indeed. Althought it may still be able to mess with tricoders.

[sonofccn]

Not having access to the video at the moment I can't be absolute but it looks like she just fired a phaser. So much for energy dampening.

I recall that they mentioned "regenerative phasers" in one DS9 episode - one with that shiny projectile rifle with transporter and high-caliber bullets. Regenerative phasers are called that beacouse they can work in dampening fields.

So much for energy dampening, indeed. Althought it may still be able to mess with tricoders.

Field of Fire Deep Space nine season seven

O'BRIEN: It was a prototype. Developed by Starfleet Security to operate in energy dampening fields or radiogenic environments.
SISKO: That's right. Anywhere where a normal phaser would be useless. If I'm not mistaken, the TR one one six rifle fired a chemically propelled tritanium bullet.
ODO: You say a prototype. Were they ever mass produced?
O'BRIEN: No. Starfleet abandoned the TR one one six in favour of regenerative phasers.

Left unsaid was wether regenerative phasers replaced standard phasers or not, as only a decade or so previously, Ensigns of Command Season 3 TNG, standard phasers were inoperative under what I'd consider a radiogenic enviroment. There is also the point that Shel-la, who understands what an energy weapon is, never suggests a phaser wouldn't operate under these conditions

In a seperate tanget Bashir gets the Runabout's computer to function again which should require some form of energy which doesn't appear to be dampened.

Runabout Yangtzee Kiang]

(Bashir is working underneath a console, bringing it back to life)
BASHIR: Nice work, Julian.

[Lucky]

Nope. I gave a quote where O'brien talks about a transponder being blocked by some dampening field. You assume it effects everything but O'Brien doesn't state that.

O'BRIEN: Exactly. See, they're putting out a mutual induction field that would block out ninety nine percent of all transmissions to and from the surface.

You gave a quote that says that at least every method of wireless communication is weakened by 99%. For a Federation vessel this includes mundane things like electromagnetic radiation

You should read up on transponders
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distress_radiobeacon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder_(aviation)
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... 74.htm#1-9

Some fields yes. However you are not a starfleet engineer and can hardly say anything about all force fields much less this one. Provide evidence this one is doing anything like you want it to or give it up.

The rescue team can't get locks on Sisko and his crew after finding them.

They seem to have trouble noticing the satellites around the moon/Planet.

They rescue team seem to have trouble scanning the surface of the planet/moon for life, and identifying the species.. This is something that normally seems like an easy task

I do find it rich you are trying to instruct me on the workings of a fictional devices.

I merely told you how sensory systems be they natural or artificial work in the real world,

[Shuttle]

LAFORGE: Enterprise, this is shuttle five in position, ready to begin a short-range scan. 

RIKER [OC]: Proceed, shuttle five. 

LAFORGE: Reg, why don't we begin with the passive high-res series, all right? 

BARCLAY: Electromagnetic band? 

LAFORGE: Give it a try. 

BARCLAY: I'm picking up visual wavelengths only. Between forty five hundred and seven thousand angstroms. 

LAFORGE: Let's try the neutron densitometer. 

BARCLAY: Nothing. 

LAFORGE: Hmm. Doesn't seem to want to give up any secrets. Let's go to active scan. 

BARCLAY: No, no modulation. 

LAFORGE: Really? You are definitely not from our neighbourhood. Increase to three point zero. 

BARCLAY: Commander? 

LAFORGE: Yeah, Reg? 

BARCLAY: Thanks for assigning me to this mission. 

LAFORGE: Don't mention it. You're one of my top engineers. It's about time you got in on some of the interesting stuff. This, this is why I'm in Starfleet. 

BARCLAY: There's still no modulation. 

LAFORGE: Hit it with a positron emission. 
(there's a big flare of light from the probe) 

LAFORGE: What was that? Computer's down, Reg. Reg? 
(but Barclay is spark out on the floor)

and sensors work the exact same way in Star Trek.

Your for some reason assuming this field is magicly dampening the sensor beams. Making gross assumptions based off of nonchalant technobabble spouted by O'Brien, I meaqn seriously I can jam radio signals which is all O'Brien was talking about and not interfere with radar.

You need to prove that the dialog is in fact gibberish if you want to disregard it. This would mean you would actually have to look up the definitions of the words.

What a damping field does with the energy in Star Trek is not explained, and it doesn't matter. Perhaps you should read some physics book to find out about damping in the real world rather then expect me to do the work for you, or just look on Youtube.

SISKO: The Magellan and the Venture are supposed to be protecting our starboard flanks. They're in too tight. Ensign, tell fighter squadrons six, seven and eight to 

NOG: Sir, I can't get through to anybody. Communications are down. 

O'BRIEN: They're jamming our signals by generating a rotating EM pulse. 

SISKO: Can you clear it? 

O'BRIEN: I'm trying.

O'Brien differentiates between damping fields and jamming, implying they are not the same.Since Miles has years of training and experience with Star Trek technologies I think we should assume he knows what he is talking about.

Funny then sensors actually worked but com didn't.

Your whole assumption that there was no damping field doesn't work since that would mean multiple characters who are suppose to know these things would have no idea what they are doing. If they don't know something as basic as the difference between jamming and damping then they honestly should not be able to do there job.

You can not dampen 99% of all transmissions without damping 99% of the type of energy being used to transmit the signal. For example: to dampen 99% of a given radio transmission I would need to dampen 99% of all radio waves.

Whoah there nelly. I never claimed to have studied the episode, this is your brainchild and I've only looked at the evidence you presented which as usual is minimal.

I've only posted the minimum amount of evidence to prove my case. The only way you could prove my analysis wrong would be to watch the episode, or read the transcript. Heck you don't even know what damping fields are, or that the technobabble as you put it actually made .

Your entire argument is just you making stuff up, and ignoring evidence. You keep the same flawed argument because you didn't bother to to read about physics. A damping field is something very different from jamming, and you have not provided any evidence as to why we should ignore what the characters are saying even though, get this, the technobabble actual describes what they are talking about, and makes sense.

O'BRIEN: The only thing that could block out a transponder signal is a broad band damping field. That requires a low level satellite system like this one. Suddenly we're being scanned by these satellites, so

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... /broadband
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... 16/damping

O'BRIEN: Exactly. See, they're putting out a mutual induction field that would block out ninety nine percent of all transmissions to and from the surface.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... inductance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8l6gAnhykU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU6NSh7hr7Q&NR=1

It's rather amusing that people assume the tech talk is meaningless in Star Trek, but then most people don't spend years of their lives studying this stuff in school.

But regardless what does the above prove? EM interferes with sensors? Already known, if you are trying to argue inferior sensors at close range and therefore the power build up may be wrong you'll need more evidence.

Damping Field=/=Jamming

Yes and so do television broadcastes. That doesn't mean jamming someone's radio would by default jink out radar and television.

The problem with your theory is that they are dealing with a damping field, and not jamming of communication. The problem is not that there is a stronger signal making them hard to hear, but that only 1% of the signal is reaching the receiver on the other end, and the fact energy weapons are not considered an option.

Shel-La states energy weapons don't do enough damage. Shel-La is talking about a weapon that easily blows basketball sized holes in stone normally, and Phasers were not considered a viable option to destroy the satellites..

Kira bringing down part of a cave sealing doesn't tell us much since we don't know how stable the sealing was. Sometimes just shouting is enough to cause a cave-in.
Kira's big bad cave in.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... nes133.jpg
Looks like she could have just been aiming for a weak point in the rock. It's not like she was trying to bring the cave down on her head.

There is a damping field around the Moon/Planet. If there was just jamming they would would have said there was jaming.

Doesn't matter if there is or there isn't. Its a descepency not evidence sensors are being blocked.

Except it supports the claim about the damping field reducing signals by 99%

From a distance hence having to get up close to the planet.

It's just more icing on the cake that says any sensor reading can't be relied upon to be accurate.

Considering the planet is not a pitch black hole I think we can safely conclude light isn't being affected. And I like how you are expert on an alien piece of hardware which doesn't actually exist. Is there a special class you take?

You might want to reconsider that claim. That sure looks like TV night time to me.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... =12&page=1
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... nes079.jpg
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... nes093.jpg
The Moon was lit in a very odd fashion. The only times we see anything resembling daylight is when artificial lights are around. It's not like they can film the episode in honest to goodness pitch black room, and have the viewer see anything.

Yes presumbly com frequencies unless you have evidence otherwise.

We are told energy weapons don't work well from Shel-La, the crew of the Reo Grand did not consider phasers a viable option for destroying the satellites, and we are told we are dealing with a damping field rather then jamming, but you assume everyone has no idea what they are talking about.

What evidence? So far you have provided zilch beyond your assumptions and theories. No evidence.

Well you keep insisting that there is no damping field in spite of the fact we are told that there is a damping field, and all the indirect evidence.

Ergo we assume the most simplist and most likely outcome, that the shields were battered down. Occam's razor, no need to add assumptios to a scenario.

The simplest answer is the damping field disabled the Runabout, and the blast simply knocked the Runabout out of orbit at about the same time, but you refuse to acknowledge the fact there was a damping field in spite of the characters finding one.

Rule out the possibility? No but we can't rule of the possibility of may things from Sisko being a duplicate from an alternate universe to Q droping the shuttle for giggles. The probability however of your desired scenario is fairly low with little if any evidence supporting.

This is rather funny coming from you since your entire theory depends on everyone not being able to do their jobs.

Nope that a complex assumption because you assume something is occuring no one comments on.

It is stated there is a Damping field that is damping 99% of the energy that is trying to reach the Moon's surface.

This is supported by the fact that:
Dax, O'Brien, and Shel-La say energy weapons aren't a viable option around the Moon/Planet without ever talking to each other.

The Moon is seemingly trapped in an eternal night like state.

It is difficult to scan the moon, and transporter locks are impossible even if the person has their com-bage.

You are working on the assumption that the characters aren't qualified to do their jobs, and you admit to not doing research before saying I'm wrong. Come back when your word is more then an opinion that contradicts the information in the episode. You are assuming that the damping field only effects communications even though we see it does not. You ignore the fact they are dealing with a damping field and claim that it's just jamming by taking the quote out of context.

A field you are assuming is affecting the Runabout another assumption

They are inside a damping field that does things like make phasers near useless, and

Assuming the damage wasn't caused by the weapon

If you aren't going to even look at the evidence provided you are going to be band.

I already provided screen caps that show the only visible damage to the Runabout was some small burn marks on the surface of the hull, and a broken off nacelle that is right next to the crashed Runabout. If the weapon did anything we can see in the episode then it didn't even breach the hull.

There are no loose ends. The Sat shoots, the Runabout falls. Thats it.

No that is not what happened.

KIRA: We're being scanned by one of the satellites. I don't like this. It's heading toward us. 

SISKO: Shields up! 

KIRA: Reading a significant energy build-up in the satellite. Six hundred megawatts, nine hundred, it's firing. 

(BANG) 

KIRA: Shields are down. Forward thrusters are gone. We're losing power. 

SISKO: Attempting to compensate with secondary boosters. 

KIRA: Impulse generators failing. 

SISKO: Hold on, we're going down. Check contingency fuel cell output. 

KIRA: Holding at sixty-five percent. 

SISKO: Doctor, watch the hull temperature. 

BASHIR: Aye, sir. 

KIRA: Stabilising attitude control response. 

SISKO: Pitching up to twenty degrees. 

BASHIR: Hull temperature nine hundred C, nine fifty, eleven hundred. 

KIRA: We're holding profile. 

BASHIR: Twelve hundred C. Thirteen. 

SISKO: Ejecting antimatter pod. 

KIRA: Pitching up to sixty degrees. Prepare for final braking manoeuvres. 

SISKO: Brace for impact!

Note how everything almost systematically fails, then the main reactor fails, and then they crash. That is not what you described, and is not normal. Normally if a Runabout has such problems it blows up, and things falling out of orbit do not normally make nosedives straight for the planet/moon.
_____

The contingency power output was not at 100%
_____

Your theory also does not explain the same class of Runabout being attacked by war ships that should be able to muster a few gigawatt per shot easily, and yet can't down the Runabouts in a single hit. The Federation is shown to have 4.2 gigawatt reactors that are about half the size of a full size bed, and about as high in "Who Watches The Watchers". Said reactors are able to power a small phaser bank.
_____

You have yet to show any sign of this jamming you keep talking about, and I can't find any sign of jamming being used in "Battle Lines". Where is it state communication systems are being jammed?

You have not proved they are inside the field, you can't hold up them not detecting your made up assumption as proof of your made up assumption.

Produce evidence Sisko was not in the damping field when attacked. If you are going to say something is wrong then you need to show why. It is not my job to prove your claim since I proved all my claims from the beginning.
______
We are shown visuals of the damping field that the satellites are generating.

The satellites don't leave orbit.

Sisko and company can't have crashed into the planet/moon without having been in orbit of it since thrusters of all types failed just after the attack.

Therefor Sisko's Runabout was in the damping field when it was attacked, and I already posted a quote that specifically states the second Runabout was in orbit when it was about to be attacked.

O'brien orders a higher orbit to get away from the satalites after realizing there is a damping field.

Prove they were inside the field, prove the field interacts with weapon fire etc. That some damping fields bother weapons is not proof this one is.

We are told energy weapons don't do enough damage on the Moon/planet by Shel-La who has been there for a long time. She is talking about weapons that are consistently doing things like burning holes through people, and such.

Dax and O'Brien do not consider the Runabout's phasers as a viable option for attacking the satellites.

Making energy weapons be ineffective is a consistent capability of damping fields.

There are energy weapons don't work well is Kira's phaser, but there is a type of phaser designed to work in damping fields.

Given it takes thousands of kilometers to to dampen transmissions by 99% near point blank range actually should not be effected much.

In your opinion.

Provide evidence to back up your claim. I've already provided screen caps, but I have my doubts you ever even bothered to read the entire thread.

Once more may I remind you that you are not an expert on 24th century weapons nor starfleet Runabouts. It is not your place to say what the weapon should have done.

You are claiming that it is not standard to see holes in damaged hulls, rock blown up, burns on humanoids?

We see only cosmetic damage similar to what was done with a phaser rifle to a shuttle craft in TNG, but you know that.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... cks162.jpg
I'm simply claiming weapons should operate as they normally do.

You are now arguing for a weapon that does not do physical damage to ships which would be something like a damping field.

Honestly Lucky can you not debate without dipping into insulting banter. This is your theory Lucky, not mine. I will not dig for your supporting evidence, you have too.

You are insulted because I figured out you didn't do the research when you admit to not checking your facts before posting?

Whoah there nelly. I never claimed to have studied the episode, this is your brainchild and I've only looked at the evidence you presented which as usual is minimal.

You didn't read the first post of the thread. This isn't about my theories. This thread is about figuring out what actually happens in the episode to see if it really a low end.

You need to dig up evidence to support your claim that my analysis is in correct. You need to show why I am wrong because you are making a positive claim, and that places the burden of proof on you.

You say there was jamming, but fail to show there was jamming is shown.

You claim the weapon was powerful enough to bring down the shields and cause enough damage to the Runabout to disable it, but fail to show your evidence.

You ignore the presence of a damping field that is possibly insanely powerful, and keep claiming it's just jamming without proof of jamming.
_____
My claim if you bothered to read it was that there are just to many X factors to get any data that can stand on it's own.

I said it was likely an energy weapon but I have not assumed it must be. Merely that it is tied to a gigawatt of energy build up.

This is why I say the event on it's own is unquantifiable.

We never see the weapon fire so it could have been a torpedo, and that would mean that the build up could have nothing to do with the yield.

We at best can only see about half the Runabout after it crashes. What we see seems to only have cosmetic damage like scorch marks, or the damage was clearly caused by the crash landing like the nacelle laying right next to the Runabout. That does not rule out damage in areas we can't see

The Runabouts are stated to be working just fine when they leave DS9.

Prove it and the shuttle are inside the field.

The damping field covers the entire Moon.

The damping field is generated by satellites that are in orbit. Since the satellites are generating the damping field they must at least be partly in it since fields are omnidirectional unless something stops them from going in a direction.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... nes263.jpg

Since the satellites can't leave orbit the Runabouts must have come close to the satellites., and we have O'Brien ordering they move to a higher orbit

That isn't my problem.

It is your problem, if you want to argue that the satellite's weapon was disabling things with pure brute force when what happened is not the norm, but at the same time could be some golden BB.

To show I am wrong you need to prove how the Runabout was disabled as my claim is that we can not know. Read more carefully.

The shuttle suffered massive damage from an alien Sat-weapon. Period. Everything else is your assumption you have not supported.

Provide evidence to support your claim that it was the weapon that destroyed the Runabout and not the crash.

Provide evidence that any 1 or 2 giga joule will take down a Runabout.

If you had read my posts you would know that my claims is that the information is not given in the episode.

At range. O'Brien intended to scan in orbit of each planet or the range in which the sat was scanned at. So no dice buddy.

Provide evidence that supports your claim that sensors are working at 100%.

Please provide evidence the Sat and Runabout is in the freaking field which is being projected onto the planet below.

The Satellite is part of the system of satellites that is generating the damping field with the planet at the center. It's shown rather clearly in the screen caps at trekcore. What your basically asking me to do is show that a magnet is at the center of it's own magnetic field.

Since the satalites can't leave orbit the Runabouts have to come to them. Since O'Brien orders moving to a higher orbit about as soon as he rea;lizes there is a damping field he likely believed he was in the damping field since he had no reason to think he might be fired on.

[Runabout Rio Grande]
(They've arrived at the brown planet) 

O'BRIEN: It's some kind of artificial satellite system. That's what our probe must have picked up. 

DAX: Our sensors are reading lifeforms on the surface, Chief. I think some of them are human. 

O'BRIEN: If the ship's down there, why wouldn't the transponder be sending out a 

DAX: We're being scanned 

O'BRIEN: Increasing orbital altitude. 

DAX: What are you thinking? 

O'BRIEN: The only thing that could block out a transponder signal is a broad band damping field. That requires a low level satellite system like this one. Suddenly we're being scanned by these satellites, so 

DAX: Maybe they had something to do with our missing runabout. 

O'BRIEN: Exactly. See, they're putting out a mutual induction field that would block out ninety nine percent of all transmissions to and from the surface. 

DAX: Is there any way for us to get a comm. line through the field? 

O'BRIEN: Well, I've got one percent to work with, don't I?

O'Brien thinks there is a damping field and he orders an increase in altitude seemingly because of it and the satellites..

Not having access to the video at the moment I can't be absolute but it looks like she just fired a phaser. So much for energy dampening.

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... =12&page=6
Sadly it tells us nothing since:
There are energy weapons designed to work in damping field.

They are in a cave which might have some sort of shielding effect that no one knows about. While no way to prove it such things seem to happen a lot.^_^

The damping field is generated in orbit so they would likely be on the edge. The visual representation shows it to have a edge. It doesn't have an infinite range

Which you just now provided instead of presenting that front up and it still doesn't prove sensors couldn't get a proper reading on the power build up.

Except I provided the the information from the start. It's not my fault you are lacking knowledge, and didn't use things like google, youtube, or just ask politely.

Perhaps the whole wrongful accusation of the guy and his sucide ruined the deal? :)

They built a new class of shuttle because they needed one. If their weapons were not up to the comparable they would have gotten new designs. All they need is the design and a replicator.

Or in another words transmission is a vague word and we should listen to the rest of the context O'Brien was talking of to figure out what he meant. Or we can assume the maximum just because.

O'Brien was talking about why the sensors on the runabout had not picked up the transponder. So in the context of the episode O'Brien was talking about sensors.

The fact the planet can be seen from orbit or that you can see anything means light is not being dampened by 99%.

Where are we shown the MOON the damping field surrounds? We see the PLANET the MOON orbits, but I don't recall see the MOON on anything other then displays on the Runabouts?

Uh phasers typically don't blast holes through people. Another variation between episodes which you seem to have issues understanding.

It depends on what setting is used. There's a nice scene is TNG where Dr.Crusher burns a hole straight through a guy, and when that doesn't work she ups the setting, and makes him disappear.

Federation Phasers have settings that range from inebriate to make that bunker disappear.

I see no reason to assume things beyond stated in the episode. I see no reason to assume the absolutely maximum possible interpentation of every word O'Brien says.

Then why claim communications were being jammed when they clearly state what is happening? Damping=/=jamming

Thank you! At last you finally provided evidence! Joyish day, praise the Lord! There now all you have to do is prove the field is being projected above the planet and that its affecting the shuttle and you will have a case.

The fact that the damping field was damping the signal for the transporter is superfluous since we already were told the about 99% of of transmissions were not making it to the surface of the moon in question.

I am assuming what happened is what happened. You are assuming its a Dominon Sat firing polarion shield breeching torpedoes which only affected the shuttle due to energy dampening. Yours is the more complex series of assumptions needlessly complicating what happened in order to explain the Runabout crashing.

You're making things up because you don't know what you are talking about. You don't know what damping fields are so you make unfounded assumptions that if you knew what you were talking about would not make. A polite person would simply ask what damping fields are if they didn't know.

I know you don't know what damping fields are since you confuse them with jamming which is vastly different.

[sonofccn]

Reply noted. Try to have mine up by tomorrow.

[Praeothmin]

You're making things up because you don't know what you are talking about. You don't know what damping fields are so you make unfounded assumptions that if you knew what you were talking about would not make. A polite person would simply ask what damping fields are if they didn't know.

I know you don't know what damping fields are since you confuse them with jamming which is vastly different

Yeah, HE's making things up, when YOU'RE the one assuming things unrelated to what is seen onscreen...
Right!

[Lucky]

You're making things up because you don't know what you are talking about. You don't know what damping fields are so you make unfounded assumptions that if you knew what you were talking about would not make. A polite person would simply ask what damping fields are if they didn't know.

I know you don't know what damping fields are since you confuse them with jamming which is vastly different

Yeah, HE's making things up, when YOU'RE the one assuming things unrelated to what is seen onscreen...
Right!

Sonofccn is claiming there was jamming, but jamming was never mentioned.

Everything I've stated I have backed up with hard evidence.

Provide evidence to support your claim.

[sonofccn]

Sonofccn is claiming there was jamming, but jamming was never mentioned.

Actually there are 28 uses of the word jam on this page. Two are mine with like twenty-six belonging to you.

I got no hits for the word jam on the previous two pages in case your curious.

As far as I can tell these are the only times I mentioned jamming.

Your for some reason assuming this field is magicly dampening the sensor beams. Making gross assumptions based off of nonchalant technobabble spouted by O'Brien, I meaqn seriously I can jam radio signals which is all O'Brien was talking about and not interfere with radar.

Here I was gently reminding you that I could block comunication with radio signals and achieve the same gist of the issue O'Brien was facing without interfering with detecting sensors like radar or in plain english I was using an analogy to try and explain something to a second party.

Yes and so do television broadcastes. That doesn't mean jamming someone's radio would by default jink out radar and television.

I would think this was even more obvious a comparative example unless you think O'Brien was broadcasting radar and televisions signals down to the planet.

At no point did I ever argue a dampening field was not generated or the field was only generating "white noise" that would be your strawman.

Everything I've stated I have backed up with hard evidence.

That would be a matter of some debate.

[sonofccn]

Here we go round one Gazillion

You gave a quote that says that at least every method of wireless communication is weakened by 99%. For a Federation vessel this includes mundane things like electromagnetic radiation

Yes wireless communication. As in radios which in and of itself does not mean the wavelenght or spectrum used for sensors would be affected. And as the quote shows sensors are working better than coms inside the field considering they actually work and O'Brien couldn't raise anyone or pick up the Runabout's transponder.

You should read up on transponders

Its a transponder for the crashed shuttle implying a similarity to transponders we have in our planes to track their position ergo is akin to a radiobeacon transponder. Exactly what I have been trying to politely inform you.

The rescue team can't get locks on Sisko and his crew after finding them.

And yes it does appear that the field is interfering with sensors, which only took you how long again?, had you presented this the first time we'd have saved all of us some time and trouble. That doesn't make O'Brien's 99% apply to everything however since obviously sensors were less blocked than com signals.

They seem to have trouble noticing the satellites around the moon/Planet.

Sigh.

At a small brown planet)
KIRA: This is definitely the origin of the signal. I'm having trouble pinpointing the source. It's not coming from the surface.
SISKO: There's your answer. A network of artificial satellites. One of them looks like it's malfunctioning. Its orbit is unstable. I'd bet the signals we picked up were from the system trying to repair it.
BASHIR: Commander, sensors indicate lifeforms localised in twelve square kilometres on the moon's surface. They may be humanoid, sir
SISKO: Humanoid? Can you verify that?
BASHIR: I can't resolve the biopatterns. There's too much interference.

Congratulations I just proved for you that the sats generated field interefers with sensors. Unfortantly they comment it for the planet surface not with the sats themselves.

and sensors work the exact same way in Star Trek.

Uh I saw nothing in your little quote explaining how sensors work only the various things they can scan for.

You need to prove that the dialog is in fact gibberish if you want to disregard it. This would mean you would actually have to look up the definitions of the words.

A wide bandwidth dampening mutally charging electromagnetic field? I'll stick to what actually happens if you don't mind.

What a damping field does with the energy in Star Trek is not explained, and it doesn't matter. Perhaps you should read some physics book to find out about damping in the real world rather then expect me to do the work for you, or just look on Youtube.

1. Is it really that hard to defend your pet idea without resulting to insults?
2. Proving your idea is your job not mine Lucky.

O'Brien differentiates between damping fields and jamming, implying they are not the same.Since Miles has years of training and experience with Star Trek technologies I think we should assume he knows what he is talking about.

I really don't care if he differentiates from dampeing fields or jamming, it was never my argument that the sats were generating only white noise. My argument is that O'Brien's quote is in regard to comunication, that the dampening is directed towards comunication, and nothing in the quote demands anything else and would in fact require additional assumptions on your part.

Your whole assumption that there was no damping field doesn't work since that would mean multiple characters who are suppose to know these things would have no idea what they are doing.

I don't believe I have ever doubted that there was a dampening field on the planet. Merely what it was dampening. O'Brien and the episode itself are fairly straightforward comunication signals were the most hampered. Sensors could still get readings but they were not exact.

You can not dampen 99% of all transmissions without damping 99% of the type of energy being used to transmit the signal. For example: to dampen 99% of a given radio transmission I would need to dampen 99% of all radio waves.

Yes but a radio wave is not a radar pulse. It operates on a differnt frequency. Being set to absorb,dampen,nullify one does not mean the other would be affected.

I've only posted the minimum amount of evidence to prove my case.

This issue being you've done a fairly poor job of it.

The only way you could prove my analysis wrong would be to watch the episode, or read the transcript.

Actually we're still trying to get to the whole actual evidence part of your analysis. Mostly its this is the way it works because I said so type stuff with evidence being provided only at the most grueling and unwilling manner.

Heck you don't even know what damping fields are, or that the technobabble as you put it actually made .

Once again being snide and insulting.

Your entire argument is just you making stuff up

I am amazed the universe just didn't implode from the Irony.

You keep the same flawed argument because you didn't bother to to read about physics.

You are welcome to prove my argument is flawed and I fail to see why I must brush up on physics to understand a simple chain of events.

A damping field is something very different from jamming

So are we done with this little strawman and can actually proceed with evidence?

and you have not provided any evidence as to why we should ignore what the characters are saying even though, get this, the technobabble actual describes what they are talking about, and makes sense.

I am not saying we ignore the characters but that we listen to the context and not take things isolated and assume the maximum.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... /broadband
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... 16/damping

So its wide spectrum, relatively speaking, field that can dampen some form of radiation. Lovely that is vague as all get out and sure as hell does not state flawelssly your theroy.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... inductance

Ah an electromagnetic field. What does this have to do with a point and what does it have to do with com transmissions being blocked, all O'Brien is speaking off in your little quote.

The problem with your theory is that they are dealing with a damping field, and not jamming of communication.

Or its a dampening field for comunications as in that is what it appears to specialize in blocking. Hence the planet not being invisble, people not stumbling around blind, energy weapons working and sensors at least getting partial readings.

The problem is not that there is a stronger signal making them hard to hear, but that only 1% of the signal is reaching the receiver on the other end

Never stated it was jamming by throwing up white noise Lucky. I was merely bringing to your notice that your dampening field seems set up to interfere with coms specificly and noticably affects little else.

and the fact energy weapons are not considered an option.

Oh Lord. Every time you make a statement like that my brain starts aching.

SHEL-LA: A brutal enemy that attacks at whim. We maintain a constant vigil. (holds up a phaser) This is an energy weapon.
SISKO: Yes.
SHEL-LA: The Ennis stopped using directed energy weapons centuries ago. Not damaging enough. Your arrival complicates matters.

All Shel-La says is energy weapons are not damaging enough. Not because of an energy field, they simply are not damaging enough in his opinion and or his race. If you want to assume its because of the energy field you will need to provide evidence.

Shel-La is talking about a weapon that easily blows basketball sized holes in stone normally

Phasers have blown boulders into kibble in other episodes. That is not evidence however of your nonstated, nonimplied super dampening field thats sucking away 99% of all energy.

Except it supports the claim about the damping field reducing signals by 99%

One the sensors can not be dampened as much as com signals because sensors are still working, Obrien could get nothing com related across, and second descrepencies are descrepencies they can not be proved by themselves as evidence to support your theroy since they are a known variable. You have to prove your idea is correct and than can explain the descrepency that way not reverse.

It's just more icing on the cake that says any sensor reading can't be relied upon to be accurate.

From across the solar system, they worked good enough through the dampening field to scan for human biosigns in orbit. Now if you have evidence the sats themselves are cloaked in their field as well as the planet you can present it but until then I see no reason to assume sensors are not reading the sats accurately.

You might want to reconsider that claim. That sure looks like TV night time to me.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... =12&page=1
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... nes079.jpg
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... nes093.jpg
The Moon was lit in a very odd fashion. The only times we see anything resembling daylight is when artificial lights are around. It's not like they can film the episode in honest to goodness pitch black room, and have the viewer see anything.

%$#^$%&%!!!!!!!!!!

Ahem excuse me. So you refuse to admit they are television shows and therefore issues can crop up for descrepencies like say warp speed being all over the charts but will use it to try and handwave the idiocy, yes I said it give me a detimerit, of 99% of the light being dampened. Okay try this. One they apparently see the world/moon from orbit.

[Runabout Rio Grande]

COMPUTER: Twenty-two minutes into launch. All readings within normal parameters.
DAX: Probe B approaching planet six. Three moons. No change in the hysteresis curve. Probe C approaching planet seven. No change.
O'BRIEN: What the hell would they be doing here anyway. It's a waste of time. They could be twenty light years from here and we wouldn't have the first clue.
DAX: Probe A approaching planet three. One moon. Chief.
COMPUTER: Probe A measuring a point zero zero one two fluctuation in the hysteresis curve.
O'BRIEN: It's the third planet.
DAX: No, look, it isn't. We're picking up something from its moon.
O'BRIEN: Laying in a new course, full impulse.

Not there is a cloud of sats orbiting an invisble gravitional mass, no that the moon is invisble, nothing about a cloaked moon, etc. Ergo the moon can be seen with the naked eye which means light has escaped from it. More than 1%. And none of this would have cost the special effects budget an extra penny.

Two none of the aliens or humans on the moon's surface seem to be having any problems seeing. Humans require a certain light level in order to see having 99% of the light dampened would prevent that ergo in universe it is not noticably darker than how it appears to us.

They are inside a damping field that does things like make phasers near useless

Once again you have not proven they are inside the field and considering systems work on the moon's surface you would also have to proof the field would hinder normal operations like you want. As to phasers that is once again your assumption based upon...more of your assumptions.

If you aren't going to even look at the evidence provided you are going to be band.

Banned. And no disagreeing with you is not a banable offense.

I already provided screen caps that show the only visible damage to the Runabout was some small burn marks on the surface of the hull, and a broken off nacelle that is right next to the crashed Runabout. If the weapon did anything we can see in the episode then it didn't even breach the hull.

Key word would be visible. Since we don't have the Runabout to take apart and inspect its guts, since we don't know what exactly the fire weapon was, since we truely don't even understand the basic tolerances of the Runabout you can not say the weapon did not cause the damage that caused the Runabout to fall from the sky.

Note how everything almost systematically fails, then the main reactor fails, and then they crash.

So? The weapon shot it, it caused extensive damage, systems failed. No need to assume a landry list of assumptions to explain a straight forward issue.

Normally if a Runabout has such problems it blows up, and things falling out of orbit do not normally make nosedives straight for the planet/moon.

So you are saying Runabout/shuttles have not crashed before? I wish to make clear what exactly you think your saying before I go and do anything.

Your theory also does not explain the same class of Runabout being attacked by war ships that should be able to muster a few gigawatt per shot easily, and yet can't down the Runabouts in a single hit.

Oh boy. I believe I already said the episode is a low-ball event. It is not in aligment with the other episodes. I have never claimed it should be held up as the gold standard.

You have yet to show any sign of this jamming you keep talking about, and I can't find any sign of jamming being used in "Battle Lines". Where is it state communication systems are being jammed?

O'Brien. Call it jammed, blocked, interfered, dampened comunication was impossible from the surface to the Runabout. Sheesh.

Produce evidence Sisko was not in the damping field when attacked. If you are going to say something is wrong then you need to show why. It is not my job to prove your claim since I proved all my claims from the beginning.

Wrong.

You are claiming the Runabout is in the field and that is why it is performing poorly. I ask for evidence for this assertion, it falls to you Lucky. You are arguing for the claim you back it up.

We are shown visuals of the damping field that the satellites are generating.

Then provide it to prove your case.

O'brien orders a higher orbit to get away from the satalites after realizing there is a damping field.

O'Brien orders a higher orbit from the sats at no point does he state if he is in the field.

We are told energy weapons don't do enough damage on the Moon/planet by Shel-La who has been there for a long time.

He states they don't do enough damage period. No mention of energy drainage.

She is talking about weapons that are consistently doing things like burning holes through people, and such.

Actually He and phasers don't consistently burn holes through people. Normal settings scorch a burn mark and at best that is a descrepency between that episode and the rest of Trek not evidence of energy drainage.

Dax and O'Brien do not consider the Runabout's phasers as a viable option for attacking the satellites.

O'BRIEN: You know, all we really need to do is find a way to create a gap in the net.
DAX: Maybe a photon would destroy one of the satellites.
O'BRIEN: Maybe, but you'd think they'd build a defence network with that in mind. You shoot one, the rest might swarm up like Vayan horn flies. We need to go for something simpler. all I need is about a fifteen percent increase in the opening in the net. Rio Grande to Sisko.
SISKO [OC]: Go ahead, Chief.

Phasers are not discussed. It is your assumption that phasers are not viable, O'Brien shoots the torpedo down not on energy absorbtion powers but the rest of the sats swarming and killing the Runabout. Once again you make an assumption and assume it is golden fact.

Making energy weapons be ineffective is a consistent capability of damping fields.

There is no evidence Kira's phaser was hindered. No one mentions fighting with limited power, power cells being drained etc. Everything in the episode suggests it is not affected in the slightest.

Given it takes thousands of kilometers to to dampen transmissions by 99% near point blank range actually should not be effected much.

Oh brother. That's your excuse? The sats designed to dampen the planet are too far away from the planet's surface to dampen it properly?

Provide evidence to back up your claim. I've already provided screen caps, but I have my doubts you ever even bothered to read the entire thread.

You've posted pictures of the Runabout. And once again you insult me instead of actually presenting evidence.

You are claiming that it is not standard to see holes in damaged hulls, rock blown up, burns on humanoids?

Without knowing the weapon which struck the Runabout, its operating principal, the exact metalurgy of Starfleet hulls, structual intergity fields yes I'm claiming looking at a picture of a Runabout is not sufficent to declare the weapon could not have shot it down.

As to hand phasers their effects are not consistent. Their use not being rock busting is not evidence of an energy field dampening them.

We see only cosmetic damage similar to what was done with a phaser rifle to a shuttle craft in TNG, but you know that.

Which considering a phaser rifle can tickle the gigajoule range that isn't too surprising. :)

As well from the episode

Taurik is taking aim with a PHASER RIFLE. He FIRES and
we reveal that he is shooting at a SHUTTLECRAFT sitting
in the bay. Geordi stands nearby with a TRICORDER and
watches as the BEAM hits the shuttle's aft section.

GEORDI
Two more seconds...
(beat)
That's enough.

A SCORCH MARK now mars the shuttle's stern. Geordi
scans it with the tricorder. Other scorch marks are
visible on the hull.

TAURIK
Sir, I'm a little puzzled. Why
are we intentionally damaging this
shuttlecraft?

TAURIK
Should I fire from this position?

GEORDI
Actually...
(he gestures)
Make it over there.

Geordi indicates that Taurik take up position a few
yards in another direction.

TAURIK
That would be consistent...

Geordi turns and looks at Taurik.

STAR TREK: "Lower Decks" 11/17/93 - ACT THREE 28.

22 CONTINUED:

GEORDI
Consistent with what?

Taurik considers a beat before replying.

TAURIK
With making it appear that this
shuttle fled an attack.

Such scorching was to make it appear it have been fired upon and appears to have been a somewhat time consuming process requiring the beam to dwell on the hull.

You are insulted because I figured out you didn't do the research when you admit to not checking your facts before posting?

No I'm insulted by your repeated quirk of being rude and questining my intelligence instead of simply providing evidence to prove me wrong.

You didn't read the first post of the thread. This isn't about my theories. This thread is about figuring out what actually happens in the episode to see if it really a low end.

Which you posted a theroy saying the ship had its shield pierced by shield piercing weapons and its slowly inflated since then. Evidence to support your idea has been little and mostly open to interpentation.

You need to dig up evidence to support your claim that my analysis is in correct. You need to show why I am wrong because you are making a positive claim, and that places the burden of proof on you.

No my friend you are making the claim not me. You claim the shield was bypassed, that the Runabout is in the field being drained. I demand evidence. It all falls to you to prove your pet idea.

My claim if you bothered to read it was that there are just to many X factors to get any data that can stand on it's own.

I read that. My point was your assumptions were assumed for assumption sake. They were not implied by the episode. Hence they are needlessly complex unless evidence is provided supporting them. Or to break this down simple you can not just proclaim something occured and demand I track down evidence disproving it.

This is why I say the event on it's own is unquantifiable.

There is no need to assume it is bypassing shields which you assumed.

We never see the weapon fire so it could have been a torpedo

We never hear of anything being launched, that would be another assumption.

The damping field is generated by satellites that are in orbit. Since the satellites are generating the damping field they must at least be partly in it since fields are omnidirectional unless something stops them from going in a direction.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... nes263.jpg

Interesting display however as the episode makes clear the rings are opening and closing implying if taken as a literal represenation of the field, and not as merely a sensor doodad to represent here be odd signal, it could never have properly enshrouded the planet.

So no I don't consider iron clad evidence the field is projected omnidirectionally much less with no one actually commenting on being inside this alleged field. As well we have this:

SISKO: But those satellites will come after you if you get too close. They're armed. One of them cut us down without any trouble at all.
O'BRIEN [OC]: Yeah, we figured as much.
SISKO: Let me know before you're ready to make an attempt.

Here Sisko is warning O'Brien about the sats and mentions only their armament, with O'Brien stated he suspected as much, nothing about dampening fields, or funky affects or the Runabout being shot down with too little energy.

To show I am wrong you need to prove how the Runabout was disabled as my claim is that we can not know. Read more carefully.

Unfortantly for us not to know both events have to be equally viable. As yours is the more complexed theroy, and any theroy can be made to fit if it is made sufficiently complex, it loses to the simplier alternative. So by proving yours is more complex needlessly, ie it doesn't explain what happens better, it loses.

Provide evidence to support your claim that it was the weapon that destroyed the Runabout and not the crash.

The weapon fired and the Runabout suffered systems failures and crashed. You are assuming unspoken, unclaimed additional variables. You must prove those are in play.

Provide evidence that any 1 or 2 giga joule will take down a Runabout.

Considering in that episode it crashed instead of laughing it off 1 to 2 gigajoules can shoot down a Runabout in that episode.

Provide evidence that supports your claim that sensors are working at 100%

I don't believe I stated 100%. I stated they had trouble at range, as stated, and moved closer to compensate, as stated. If you wish to assume that up close they could not read a power build up you must prove it.

The Satellite is part of the system of satellites that is generating the damping field with the planet at the center. It's shown rather clearly in the screen caps at trekcore. What your basically asking me to do is show that a magnet is at the center of it's own magnetic field.

The Moon is in the center of the field. Without out knowing exactly the shape and dimensions of the field in quesiton and the Runabout's exact relation to same we can not just assume it is sitting in an energy draining field and no one comments on it.

Since O'Brien orders moving to a higher orbit about as soon as he rea;lizes there is a damping field he likely believed he was in the damping field since he had no reason to think he might be fired on.

Or he realized the sats were a threat because something brought down the Runabout and if you went to the trouble of surronding your world with a giant dampening field with clusters of satilties and you have a downed Runabout on the world in question its highly likely something is hanging around about to mess you up.

O'Brien thinks there is a damping field and he orders an increase in altitude seemingly because of it and the satellites..

He's putting distance from the satellites not escaping from an energy field he oddly doesn't mention he's in. And remember he tells Sisko later he suspected the sats were armed but no mention of the dampening field.

They are in a cave which might have some sort of shielding effect that no one knows about. While no way to prove it such things seem to happen a lot.^_^

Occam's Razor. If someone fires an energy weapon and no one makes a comment on it in relation to an energy absorbtion dampening field then we have no reason to assume the energy absorbtion dampening field.

Except I provided the the information from the start. It's not my fault you are lacking knowledge, and didn't use things like google, youtube, or just ask politely.

No you didn't. You held up O'Brien's Runabout with Dax stating she was scanning human lifesigns as proof of sensors being blocked. You only mentioned this latest one on November 9th your previous post.

They built a new class of shuttle because they needed one. If their weapons were not up to the comparable they would have gotten new designs. All they need is the design and a replicator.

It was the whole point of them going to him. He was a weapon's dealer, Seven was there to help them purchase weapons. Ergo they were looking for weapons superior to the ones they had, as to why they didn't have any afterwards I don't know and frankly don't feel like wasting additional skullsweat.

O'Brien was talking about why the sensors on the runabout had not picked up the transponder. So in the context of the episode O'Brien was talking about sensors.

Sigh.

They've arrived at the brown planet)
O'BRIEN: It's some kind of artificial satellite system. That's what our probe must have picked up.
DAX: Our sensors are reading lifeforms on the surface, Chief. I think some of them are human.
O'BRIEN: If the ship's down there, why wouldn't the transponder be sending out a

Hes talking about the transponder sending out a signal like a radio-beacon.

Where are we shown the MOON the damping field surrounds? We see the PLANET the MOON orbits, but I don't recall see the MOON on anything other then displays on the Runabouts?

The fact no one mentions the invisble moon would be a huge hint. Things are not normally invisible. People comment on it, a helluva lot more than a ring of sats everyone starts talking about the moment they enter orbit.

It depends on what setting is used. There's a nice scene is TNG where Dr.Crusher burns a hole straight through a guy, and when that doesn't work she ups the setting, and makes him disappear

Yes I know about settings. My point is across the wide breadth of episodes the burn holes clean through people are, for a variety of boring and mundane real life reasons, not employed. Therefore claiming that a phaser shot must be dampened because it didn't hit with the strenght of a battleship is a flawed line of reasoning.

Then why claim communications were being jammed when they clearly state what is happening? Damping=/=jamming

I state comunicaiton is what is being dampened/blocked/jammed/interfered/suppressed/etc because that is what the episode shows. That is what O'Brien talks about. Sensors are obviously less affected because they are reading life signs while he couldn't talk at all through the field. On the planet Bashir uses a medical tricorder, Kira fires a phaser, the runabout's computer gets repaired and used, light exists. The Dampening field is highly selective in what it afflicts.

The fact that the damping field was damping the signal for the transporter is superfluous since we already were told the about 99% of of transmissions were not making it to the surface of the moon in question.

In relation to com. That is what O'Brien is talking about, why the transponder isn't broadcasting and how can he contact Sisko.

You're making things up because you don't know what you are talking about.

Then prove me wrong buddy. back up your myraid claims with actual, real evidence.

You don't know what damping fields are so you make unfounded assumptions that if you knew what you were talking about would not make.

I know what a dampening field is. I also am listening to what O'Brien is saying. Not running with a word or going with the most vague possible definition to try and argue light is being dampened.

A polite person would simply ask what damping fields are if they didn't know.

So in a nutshell instead of actually using this space to prove your theroy you call me an idiot and try to divert notice from the fact your theroy is an overly complex jury-rig of assumptions that are not even internally consistent.

I know you don't know what damping fields are since you confuse them with jamming which is vastly different.

Oh brother. Just provide your evidence Lucky and lay of the commentary. These posts are becoming long enough without you adding these little snidely strawmen and insults.

[Mike DiCenso]

Lucky, Sonofcnn. Knock off with the insults and baiting now, or you'll both getting a warning, and if that doesn't work, you'll both get a ban.
-Mike

[KSW]

The question is this; how do any of these examples count as Star Trek low end?

There is little to no firepower shown in PoF, the only example being when the Enterprise effortlessly shoots down a nuclear missile shot at it.

Well I would say it's because they are helpless to stop the Nazi ship other than by destroying it, when logically it would be their bitch.
So they have to get their guy to call off the attack, rather than just using the awesome Enterprise's superior tech to basically just send it back using tractor-beams, scanners and remote-overrides, transporters, deflectors, and pretty much anything else other than using full-phasers to blast it to kindom-come; it's like they didn't even have a power-adjustment dial on their phasers, despite that we had seen them set on stun in "A Piece of the Action."
It was like their only two choices were either to destroy the ship, or do nothing; which makes the Enterprise look pretty weak indeed.

[Mike DiCenso]

Sending the missile back to the point of it's origin would be in really bad form, especially since the world it was fired on was supposed to be relatively peaceful, if unadvanced by their standards. Not to mention since it was a nuclear-equipped weapon, sending it back would potentially result in thousands of needless deaths, if not tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands.

Let it hit the Enterprise? Well, I suppose they could have done that and faked being "killed" that way, but then again, you don't know for sure about this missile from a planet that supposedly did not have spaceflight before and was very technologically unsophisticated, so what if it's really a diabolical Klingon or Romulan weapon in disguise?

No, the most efficent means to deal with it was to destroy the missile. The high-yeild explosion from the phaser blast is what faked out the Ekosian Space Nazis into thinking the missile had destroyed the Enterprise.

So quick, clean, and no dealing with nasty suprises, other than being fired on by a planet that shouldn't have spaceflight, much less nukes in the first place.
-Mike