The Borg appear during the Vong War

[sonofccn]

No idea, it's not specific

Well that is definatly an issue. After all if the bulk of those thousands areI'Friil Ma-Nat or Uumufalh then thier numbers are all but worthless.

The reason I would say 10,000+ capships for the Vong fleet is simple. If Garm's fleet is in the 5000 range, then 600+ Vong warships would be pitifully outmatched.

Well first I would ask for confirmation the defenders had 5000 warships at their disposal. Second tens of thousands, assuming the quote is accurate, is a very vague and wide open range from 20K to 90K so I seen no grounds dismissing fighter counting on that score.

Consider that after Coruscant, after burning the Yevatha off the galaxy, attacking Hapes, the Empire and their own attacks against the Republic they burned through and estimated
1/3 of their starting personnel and ships.

Interesting? Exact quote If I may ask? Judging from wookieepedia their appeared to have been waves of Vong forces arriving at seperate times unless I'm misunderstanding something and I'd be curious if its total forces, or merely a segment. As well battle losses up to that point would be of help.

they destroyed a Yevetha fleet numbering in the "thousands of thrustships"

Which are relativly smallish warships at 240 meters I have little doubt a ISD or miid ro'ik could duel one single handily and prevail easily. As well context would be needed if this operation was a tiny mop up procedure or a major deployment of force.

was fighting with Hapes, the splintered New Republic, Thrawn's little Empire of the Hand, The Imperial Remnant, Corporate Sector, the Hutts (who still managed to be a power) and every other faction.

Well I don't know about the rest but the Imperial Remnant was down to 200 star destroyers by the time of Specter of the Past and I have doubts their prospects had improved much since then. So do we have any evidence how many ships any of these people could put up?

They still had thousands of ships to send to Dac

Easily or scraping the barrel? Was Dac important or just another battle?

enough to protect Coruscant in their Final Battle.

Idea on the number of ships assembled to defend/attack?

Not to mention they still had fleets EVERYWHERE.

Without number of fleets and their compliment such a statment is meaningless.

That means they either had some really impressive ship building capabilities or they had extremely massive numbers when they entered the galaxy.

Much of what you have presented has been vague second hand refrences with your few hard numbers pointing to the thousands grouped for big battles. I do not consider that exremely massive in number.

Miid Ro'iks likely are bigger the Borg Cubes. RAMMING SPEED. They shouldn't have much problem with 24 Borg Cubes.

Sigh. A miid ro'ik is rougly the size of an ISD while a Borg cube is typically three kilometers on a side. The Cube is far larger. As to ramming you may try but the only successful attempt that I am aware of involved species 8472's bioship. I wouldn't count on imitating its success. Fighting conventually you'd need to amass 40+ Miid Ro'iks, being generous in light of the ragtag nature assembled for wolf 359, per cube or 984 minimum just for the cubes.

[Mike DiCenso]

As to ramming you may try but the only successful attempt that I am aware of involved species 8472's bioship.

Actually, that was not the bioship's doing, but the Borg cube's in order to prevent the bioship from destroying Voyager. The indications are from the way both ships destruct is that the cube detonated itself on impact to kill the bioship.

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... on2159.jpg

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... on2160.jpg

Sadly the YouTube video of the episode is no longer up where you can see clearly how the cube sideswipes the bioship, then explodes. Also another factor, regarding shields and such for the cube; the cube is clearly heavily damaged from from the bioship's beam weapon in a prior attack.
-Mike

[User1469]

Why would a bulk of thousands of gunships and corvettes be worthless? It's not like Borg firepower is exactly impressive.


I don't have the book, so I'm going off memory. I do remember 5,000 warships. Be they Star Destroyers or Mon Calamari Cruisers, your still facing dedicated warships. Not sure why you think that's a problem. Once again. It's not like Borg Cubes are all together that impressive.

The 1/3 comes from Star By Star, from Admiral Ackbar before their defeat of Tasvong Lah and his armada.

Since when does size have to do with anything? They are built to fight out of their weight class with better shield coverage due to their design. Thrustships are extremely deadly and hard to kill.

By the YV war they had the resources to build at least 2 more Executor Class Star Destroyers. And again another shortly before the YV attacked them.

Dac was the current head of the Galactic Republic. They weren't scraping the barrel. They went in with the intent to wipe them out.

I don't really remember. I know it was in the multiple thousands, including thousands of coralskippers.


I'm not sure how the statement is meaningless. They had to protect the worlds they had. Your being obtuse.

Your likely not aware, but leaving your own worlds unprotected is extremely foolish. No one is going to mass huge fleets for planets like Coruscant and leave everything else you have unprotected. Considering they only had to fight the Coruscant Defense fleet, that means they have lots more else where. Ya know. To keep the planets they had. Don't be dumb. I know your not. Think.

Considering ramming tactics are what they enjoy doing, and do them so well. It's not about size. So stop throwing that around. I'll concede the Borg size, but it doesn't invalidate them ramming Borg Ships. They can both ram them or fire on them.

Now I know where this will go. It turns into a firepower debate where you chock up all the major scenes where firepower is exhibited, and then I do the same. The we argue how ics, and the eu isn't canon, in spite of the fact that we are using the EU.

I don't want to go down that route.

We are using EU sources here for everything on the Yuuzhan Vong. Now Mi'id Roik's are pretty much a direct match for an Imperial Star Destroyer or Mon Calamari MC80B Star Cruisers. Same with Mataloks. You level up when it comes to Uro'Ik v'alh or the battleship analogs so routinely thrown around in the books. And no, I won't go look them all up. It's relativity easy to get them all on demonoid.

At the very minimum the Borg are outnumbered on every front, and at best they have equal (somewhat firepower) and are something the Yuuzhan Vong hate with a passion. That puts them in a extremely bad place to be.

[Mike DiCenso]

I don't have the book, so I'm going off memory. I do remember 5,000 warships. Be they Star Destroyers or Mon Calamari Cruisers, your still facing dedicated warships. Not sure why you think that's a problem. Once again. It's not like Borg Cubes are all together that impressive.

Not all that impressive? We saw in ST:FC a single Borg cube take on large numbers of Federation ships, including the E-E and the Defiant. We also see the cube firing one-shots at various ships and instantly killing or disabling them. And there is also the prior example earlier in this thread I gave of the much smaller and weaker sphere ship taking on 18 plus ships for nearly 30 seconds before Voyager destroys it with a transphasic torpedo.

Add to that what we see in the higher canon TCW and movie canon for Star Wars firepower, and I don't think fleets of even hundreds of Galactic Alliance or Vong ships would stand a chance against a single cube, much less a small fleet of them.

By the way, welcome back, Matt.
-Mike

[sonofccn]

Actually, that was not the bioship's doing, but the Borg cube's in order to prevent the bioship from destroying Voyager. The indications are from the way both ships destruct is that the cube detonated itself on impact to kill the bioship

Ah. I knew the Borg caused the ramming but didn't remember or I guess realize the Borg self-destructed purposly before hand.

Why would a bulk of thousands of gunships and corvettes be worthless? It's not like Borg firepower is exactly impressive.

Borg cubes generally plow through Federation ships which I'd rate far higher than measly gunships, corvettes and frigates, generally rating your average 24th century ship pre Dominon war refit as comparable to an ISD give or take.

I don't have the book, so I'm going off memory. I do remember 5,000 warships.

Sorry, didn't mean to nag.

Be they Star Destroyers or Mon Calamari Cruisers, your still facing dedicated warships. Not sure why you think that's a problem. Once again. It's not like Borg Cubes are all together that impressive.

Star Destroyers and Mon Calamari Cruisers? Never said those were a problem. The problem, extending from Vong to Imperial/Rebel ships, would be Carracks, Nebulon-Bs, Strike Cruisers and Assault frigates. The smaller ships with fractions of the power that have to gang up to take down the big boys and which presumbly make up part of these thousands of ship fleets acting as screening forces and what not.

Since when does size have to do with anything? They are built to fight out of their weight class with better shield coverage due to their design. Thrustships are extremely deadly and hard to kill.

While not absolutely flawless it holds fairly well in Star Wars.

The Strike-class is designed from the ground up to be a flexible, efficient, modular starship with half the functionality of a Victory Star Destroyer for 25% of the cost."

A strike cruiser runs a length of about 450 meters while a Victory is rated at 900 meters and in turn is out performed by an ISD at 1600 meters.

Taking all that into consideration yes I feel justified in looking at ship length among other things in determining the ship's strength. So unless there is an example of a thrustship fighting one on one a ISD and making a fight of it I feel confident in assuming it is the weaker vessel.

By the YV war they had the resources to build at least 2 more Executor Class Star Destroyers. And again another shortly before the YV attacked them.

Which at least is something through I take it there was no mention of fleet numbers for the Imperial-Vong battles?

Dac was the current head of the Galactic Republic. They weren't scraping the barrel. They went in with the intent to wipe them out.

So when they went for Dac they were flushed with resources?

I'm not sure how the statement is meaningless. They had to protect the worlds they had. Your being obtuse.

I'm not. There was nothing to quantify from the statment. It was merely they have a huge force, take my word for it sort of thing.

Your likely not aware, but leaving your own worlds unprotected is extremely foolish.

What I am aware of or not is immaterial. It falls to you to make your argument and stating they are defending everywhere in caps is not an argument.

No one is going to mass huge fleets for planets like Coruscant and leave everything else you have unprotected.

Actually I believe the Germans left their French Border heavily underdefended when they went into Poland so obviously amassing your force for a cruicial, killing blow and gambling isn't unheard of.

As well assuming they are defending one must then determine what they are defending with and with what numbers before anything can actually be caculated. I mean looking at the clone wars were three cruisers and a batallion of clones can flip a world I could argue a hundred ships and a division of ground troops could hold the entire Star Wars galaxy.

Considering they only had to fight the Coruscant Defense fleet, that means they have lots more else where. Ya know. To keep the planets they had.

From an enemy in disarray, reeling from losing its capitol? No from the information provided I don't see it as obvious that they have a substational number of ships holes away. It is obviously quite possible but you have not made a sufficent case for it.

Don't be dumb. I know your not. Think.

Lets just argue the facts shall we?

Considering ramming tactics are what they enjoy doing, and do them so well.

Well thats all well and good but the Federation with ships packed full of antimater don't consider ramming except as a last ditch option it behooves me to consider that ramming a Borg cube is a losing proposition.

It's not about size. So stop throwing that around.

Uh...you brought up size I was correcting you. I didn't bring up size as why the ramming didn't work instad gently pointing out that ramming isn't conducted by starfleet who'd face similar situations. My pointing out the only one succesful ramming, which as Mike points out isn't, making me dubious of a Vong warship pulling it off.

Now I know where this will go. It turns into a firepower debate where you chock up all the major scenes where firepower is exhibited, and then I do the same. The we argue how ics, and the eu isn't canon, in spite of the fact that we are using the EU.

No. I don't have a problem with the EU. Just the ICS for Episode II and III. So with the noted exceptions feel free to bring in all the C-canon you wish.

We are using EU sources here for everything on the Yuuzhan Vong. Now Mi'id Roik's are pretty much a direct match for an Imperial Star Destroyer or Mon Calamari MC80B Star Cruisers. Same with Mataloks. You level up when it comes to Uro'Ik v'alh or the battleship analogs so routinely thrown around in the books.

Which I've been assuming. Ergo one Mi'id Roik is roughly on par with a 24th century Federation warship and hence why you will need nearly a thousand of them in a best case scenario against the Borg cubes.

At the very minimum the Borg are outnumbered on every front, and at best they have equal (somewhat firepower) and are something the Yuuzhan Vong hate with a passion. That puts them in a extremely bad place to be.
Why would a bulk of thousands of gunships and corvettes be worthless? It's not like Borg firepower is exactly impressive.

Compared to the whole fleet? Maybe. :)

Seriously I'd rate Borg cubes far higher in firepower considering the way they can cut through Starfleet like a hot knife through butter. Ships somewhat equal throw weight, better targeting and manuverbility than typical Imperial/New Republic/Etc wares.