sonofccn wrote: Hmm. Lets see. You were asking about the sats interfering with the runabout's sensors. I showed a quote that sensors are not affected, they were reading just fine. So I provided exactly what I was trying to show.
You showed a quote that states all energy is effected seemingly equally by the damping field.
sonofccn wrote: No Lucky. It says transmissions as in radio signals, or subspace but my point still stands, comunicators and beacons are stated not to be working from the surface. Not that sunlight or anything else is being dampened by 99%. So unless you have evidence for this odd claim please drop it.
A known property of damping fields is that they make sensors less effective. They do this because both active and passive sensors rely on energy hitting the sensors after hitting the object being scanned. Damping field as stated in battle lines lower the amount of energy reaching the sensor.
Communication systems work the same way as sensors.
Federation ships use things like electromagnetic sensors and communication systems as well as subspace stuff and other more exotic things.
Battle Lines wrote: O'BRIEN: I'm not reading a single M Class planet in the system. If they went down anywhere around here, they couldn't have survived.
DAX: I'm not sure we can believe the scans, Chief. The star is putting out abnormal levels of delta radiation.
O'BRIEN: That'd foul up our long range scanners.
DAX: We'll have to survey each planet, one at a time.
O'BRIEN: Not to mention two dozen or so moons and an asteroid belt. Bloody needle in a haystack. A needle in a haystack. What we need is a magnet.
DAX: A magnet?
O'BRIEN: Yeah. You want to pick a piece of metal out of the straw, you use a magnet.
DAX: I don't think I'm following you, Chief.
O'BRIEN: Runabout hulls are made out of metallic composites that interact with magnetic fields. We could send out a few probes to scan the system for those specific magnetic resonance patterns. If Sisko's runabout is in the system, we might pick up a fluctuation in the hysteresis curve.
DAX: The magnetic deflection of a runabout's hull is extremely weak. The probes will never be able to detect it.
O'BRIEN: They will, if I can outfit them with a differential magnetomer.
DAX: A differential magnetomer. I've never heard of a differential magnetomer. How does it work?
O'BRIEN: I'll let you know as soon as I've finished making one.
Given you claim to have been researching the episode your thoroughness leaves much to be desired. It is clearly stated sensors aren't working right, and the damping field hadn't even been found yet.
You do realize active sensors like radar for example use transmitters, and send out transmissions?
sonofccn wrote: That's your evidence? Your personal belief the sensors are not working as good as they should and therefore the sats must be dampening them? Sorry doesn't work that way. Give me actual evidence from the episode of them complaining their sensors are being disrupted, as they are wont to do every time such a thing occurs, or no it isn't messing with their sensors.
Has there ever been a time when sensors were working right, and the target was not trying to hide that they could not easily identify the species?
The evidence from the episode says the sensors weren't working right even before the damping field, and that the transmissions the sensors normally pick up would be notably weaker then normal.
sonofccn wrote: No you are just grasping at straws to avoid the obvious. The sat shot the runabout and it plummeted from the sky ergo unless more evidence is presented the sat shot it down with 1-2 gigawatts of energy. End of story.
A Transmission is just energy given off by a transmitter. Energy is energy, we have no reason to believe the damping field would know the difference between sunlight and a laser, or could effect one but not the other. I am not aware of any damping field in Star Trek that picked and chose to the degree your theory needs.
If you had bothered to look even at Wikipedia, you would know that broadband has nothing to do with communication, and the same is true for transmissions. In the episode "Battle Lines" broadband was used to describe the damping field. In other words the damping field effects a wide range of frequencies in a spectrum, and in this case the spectrum is very large and exotic by our standards. Heck, we are told that energy weapons don't work well on the planet implying that the damping field is notably weakening them.
If you bothered to look up Mutual inductance you would know that the Runabout it's self may have been the power source for the weapon.
sonofccn wrote: I am not making anything up Lucky. I am going with the simplist theroy which fits and explains the available evidence.
For your theory to be correct we need to ignore evidence.
sonofccn wrote: For one race. You have provided no evidence the Dominion is linked to this world, no evidence those were polaron weapons or evidence that the shields were bypassed. Your "but-but its possible!" protests to the contrary there is no evidence to suggest shield bypassing weaponry ergo it is not shield bypassing weaponry until support evidence can be provided. Which you do not have nor will you ever.
There is no evidence of a shield interaction.
There is no evidence there wasn't a shield interaction.
Between the known capabilities of damping fields in Star Trek, and known weapons in the area we can not rule out the possibility that the shields did nothing.
sonofccn wrote: No. That would be a very complex series of assumptions, that the aliens are somehow linked to the Dominion, that the sats were built with polorian weapons, that the shield bypass went unnoted. It is a very complex and needless theroy that does not explain anything any better than Sat shot down the Runabout one.
The theory needs to fit the known facts.
The simplest theory would be the Runabout was drained of energy without the crew realizing it, and the weapon knocked the Runabout out of orbit. That theory takes the damping field, the falling straight towards the planet, and the apparent lack of obvious damage to the Runabout into account, no loose ends like your theory does, but they are theories, and in all cases we are missing the key peaces of evidence to, and that key peace of evidence is the weapon strike, or the parts of the Runabout we can't see after the crash.
There is also the minor question of how well the sensors were working at the time given the stated fact that they are said not to be working at 100%, and the crew did not notice the damping field.
Then there is the fact an energy weapon inside a damping field should not work well if at all. It's why the TR-118 was designed
sonofccn wrote: Sigh. The Sat shoots the Runabout and it crashes. Nothing is said of the dampening field effecting them, of shields being bypassed, merely being shot and then falling. Therefore the most likely explanation is that the Sat shot down the Runabout and I frankly don't care how unlikely you think the damage was or that you think the damage was only done on impact. I care about cannon, of evidence and facts not baseless assumptions.
There is no visible damage on the Runabout that would account for the crash.
Note the hull thickness. We should see some nice holes from the weapon somewhere.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... nes080.jpg
Sisko didn't notice the damping field, and the rescue team only figured it out because they could not detect the emergency transponder. We have quotes about energy weapon not working well on the surface implying the damping field does in fact drain all sources of energy.
Given you theories you don't actually care about the facts of the matter since you don't bother to do basic research.
sonofccn wrote: Which operate quite differnt from the Breen weapon and are not typically shot at someone. They are a field generated from a localized point, not a weapon's shot.
You make the assumption there was even an energy weapon fired. The damping field makes it unlikely that the weapon was an energy weapon.
All the systems on the Runabout all fail at once which does not matching weapon I can recall.
sonofccn wrote: In other words except for the actual event everything would fit perfectly. Sigh.
The event as shown is everything on the Runabout failing after being hit by an unseen and unnamed weapon even though much of it is unlikely to have been damaged by the attack while inside a damping field that is inside an area that already plays havoc with sensors, and everyone kind of panicking as they crash.
sonofccn wrote: Really now gigawatts of energy to launch missiles? In addition we only hear a power build up not of parasitical projectiles arming or launching so no I see absolutely no need to assume missiles were fired. Your stuck at gigawatts buddy.
Given the sensors not working well is a major plot point, and it is noted on the planet that energy weapons don't work the way they are suppose to inside the damping field a torpedo of some sort makes sense.
SHEL-LA: The Ennis stopped using directed energy weapons centuries ago. Not damaging enough.
We don't actually know what the energy buildup was for. It could be for a launch system, or it could be for a targeting system since sensors don't work well in the area. For all we know the satellite was draining energy from the Runabout
sonofccn wrote: Yeah and warp nine is 9000c and warp 2 is a million c. Holodecks are rare and marvelous new technology to mid 24th century starfleet personel and Captain Janeway had a favoriate childhood holoprogram. Not everything will always work exactly the same, unless you have evidence of them actually comenting on interference to the sensors I see no reason to conclude they were suffering issues.
It was specifically stated in the episode the sensors on the Runabout were not working right because of the damping field and delta delta radiation from the stars.
Meanwhile we commonly have ships scanning things kilometers underground without any trouble under normal conditions.
sonofccn wrote: Its being treated as an upgrade, superior to what their currently packing. Hence Paris wanting one. At best you have none of them surprised at a terrawatt weapon but everything in the scene strongly suggests it is a more powerful, if perhaps less refined, weapon than Federation phaser rifles.
Retrospect wrote: [Seven's memory - Entharan weapons range]
SEVEN [OC]: I'm at the weapons range. Kovin had taken us there to evaluate various hand held firearms he wished to offer in trade. He attempted to impress us with a demonstration of the weapons destructive capabilities. My role was to provide a more objective analysis.
KOVIN: Terrawatt powered particle beam rifle, four microsecond recharge cycle, ten kilometre range.
PARIS: Definitely not standard Starfleet issue. What do you think?
SEVEN: Seventy two percent fragmentation, twenty eight percent vaporization. Crude, but efficient.
PARIS: It's not as accurate as our compression rifles, but it's a lot easier to handle. I wouldn't mind carrying one of these the next time we run into the Hirogen.
SEVEN: Targeting mechanism could be augmented with a thermal guidance sensor. That would improve accuracy by twenty four percent.
KOVIN: I can do that now. Care to join me? You can make sure the adjustments perform to your specifications.
PARIS: If you don't mind, I'd like to test some of the other firearms.
KOVIN: Go right ahead. This way.
SEVEN [OC]: Kovin took me to a small laboratory.
What the differences are between the Particle Beam Rifle and the standard Star Fleet Compression Rifle is vague, but the Particle Beam Rifle can't be drastically better, or Voyager's crew would have logically been using them. The way they talk, I'd assume the difference was similar to that of a M-16 and an AK-47.
sonofccn wrote: Nope. Just Com transmissions unless you have anything more to add.
Lie, and there are other types of transmissions beside communication like sensors, and ultimately a transmission is just an energy pulse.
sonofccn wrote: In the context of comunication. I mean the basic problem is you take some vague word or phrase and then assume the maximum, hence blathering that its absorbing 99% of the freaking light hitting the planet, without reason. O'Brien is talking of beacons and com signals, there is no need to assume its blocking things like sensors when no one comments on it.
The planet/Moon is seemingly in perpetual twilight.
Energy weapons that should be able to blast holes through people or worse can't. This is actually a common thing for damping fields to do, and one of their primary uses in Star Trek, disable energy weapons..
Now you want us to believe that a damping field shown to be effective on a wide variety of energies will magically ignore transmissions from the sensors, but it gets better for my case...
Battle Lines wrote: [Runabout Rio Grande]
O'BRIEN: we've got to find a way to penetrate this network of satellites. They're making it impossible to lock on to anything down there.
SISKO [OC]: Understood.
...because it is specifically stated the satellites are messing with the sensors.
sonofccn wrote: Likely because we don't generate a laundry list of assumptions as you are prone to do to jury-rig a quote into your prefered notion of what happened.
You are the one making assumptions about Battle Lines without being able to back it up, and you are engaging in fallacious argument.
