Geonosis Arena, Jedi & Sith forcesub vs Dominion

[Praeothmin]

And it was in corridors, where you don't have much time to react. And given losses during Dominion War, it is indeed possible they were "green".

Yeah, sure, because in an arena filled with people shooting at you, and laser swords ready to cut you down, you have so much more time to react...

Look, I've watched all of Trek, TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT, and while I'm the first one to agree ST has better marksmen than SW, they are not exceptional, and they often miss easy targets, not too far away, like when Worf missed the Ferengi on the bridge of the E-D in TNG...
Like when Starfleet personel and Klingons were missing each other during DS9's assault...

They are not perfect, and are not so good that 5 times less troops have any chance against the best the Sith can spare...

This is my last post on the subject, as I've already started to repeat myself...
You won't convince me, I won't convince you, period.

[Lucky]

And it was in corridors, where you don't have much time to react. And given losses during Dominion War, it is indeed possible they were "green".

Yeah, sure, because in an arena filled with people shooting at you, and laser swords ready to cut you down, you have so much more time to react...

Look, I've watched all of Trek, TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT, and while I'm the first one to agree ST has better marksmen than SW, they are not exceptional, and they often miss easy targets, not too far away, like when Worf missed the Ferengi on the bridge of the E-D in TNG...
Like when Starfleet personel and Klingons were missing each other during DS9's assault...

They are not perfect, and are not so good that 5 times less troops have any chance against the best the Sith can spare...

This is my last post on the subject, as I've already started to repeat myself...
You won't convince me, I won't convince you, period.

Are you actually arguing that Star Trek ground forces have bad aim, and that they are just as bad as Star Wars ground forces?

[Mr. Oragahn]

If it fired beams, it is probably 4.6 GW... I mean, this is same series where 12.75 billion gigawatts per second is measure of constant power production. It wouldn't be unusual if Trek writers made yet another error.

You just appealed to writers' ignorance of scientific terms to validate a given figure??

EDIT: As for Star Trek accuracy, aren't hand phasers (and "hair-dryer" type rifles) aimed by simply looking at target? Only later, with increased use of pulse mode on rifles, do we get something that actually looks like modern assault rifle, when you have to aim by looking down the sights.

Yeah, rifles have those transparent aim-through panels, and there's a legion of off-axis shots. Does that mean there's a lock on UFP weapons? So, do Dominion forces have something similar, then?

[Mr. Oragahn]

Maybe you missed the fact that virtually every shot hit its target. As opposed to SW accuracy, where they need to saturate the area with fire to hope something hits. As Obi-Wan said, the blaster is a clumsy and random weapon.

Good, so the guys at AR-558 were master marksmen...
Now why the heck didn't those officers on the E-E in NEM shoot as well, praytell?
Are we, again, using one example to create an average for one side, while ignoring the many times such accuracy was not shown?
Such as in ST:GEN, pretty much all of VOY, ENT when the MACOs were not the ones shooting, TNG, and most of DS9...

Someone, perhaps vivftp at SBC, had one a count of hits and misses in TNG, and the ratio of hits was very high, above 90%.

[Mr. Oragahn]

And it was in corridors, where you don't have much time to react. And given losses during Dominion War, it is indeed possible they were "green".

Yeah, sure, because in an arena filled with people shooting at you, and laser swords ready to cut you down, you have so much more time to react...

Ahem. Aren't you forgetting something like range? You can't be cut if you can't be touched by said swords. Droids can't hit shit even 80 meters away. I believe even random Jemmies have demonstrated better in A Time To Stand & Rocks And Shoals.

[Mr. Oragahn]

May I present to you "Way of the Warrior".

Those Cling Goons are worth shit, are they?

[Lucky]

If it fired beams, it is probably 4.6 GW... I mean, this is same series where 12.75 billion gigawatts per second is measure of constant power production. It wouldn't be unusual if Trek writers made yet another error.

You just appealed to writers' ignorance of scientific terms to validate a given figure??

Standard phaser rifles are consistently stated to have megawatt or is it joule outputs, and StarDestroyer.net has some calcs that place the tiny dust buster phaser at 60 mega joules a shot.

[Mr. Oragahn]

4.6 GW would pretty much be the high end anyway.

[Picard]

If it fired beams, it is probably 4.6 GW... I mean, this is same series where 12.75 billion gigawatts per second is measure of constant power production. It wouldn't be unusual if Trek writers made yet another error.

You just appealed to writers' ignorance of scientific terms to validate a given figure??

That depends on how forcefield works. If it is like shields, when it apsorbs certain amount of energy before failing, then cannon's output can be 46 MW without trouble. Or 1.15 GJ shots, for example. If not, then >4.6 GW is required to punch throught it.

EDIT: As for Star Trek accuracy, aren't hand phasers (and "hair-dryer" type rifles) aimed by simply looking at target? Only later, with increased use of pulse mode on rifles, do we get something that actually looks like modern assault rifle, when you have to aim by looking down the sights.

Yeah, rifles have those transparent aim-through panels, and there's a legion of off-axis shots. Does that mean there's a lock on UFP weapons? So, do Dominion forces have something similar, then?

Unknown. But aim-by-sight system already exists, so it wouldn't be wierd if Starfleet uses it. However, it might be that it is prone to breakdowns and malfunctions during intense combat (fast moving targetsm lots of energy flying around), or even during combat in general, which is probably reason we got assualt rifles in TNG movies.

4.6 GW would pretty much be the high end anyway.

For a hand cannon. In a setting where handgun can heat stones until they glow red. It is close to high end, but is not impossible.

[Lucky]

4.6 GW would pretty much be the high end anyway.

Why?

[Mr. Oragahn]

4.6 GW would pretty much be the high end anyway.

Why?

For obvious reasons. If it were capable of better, it would have been rated as being capable of going through a force field of a greater energy. It also is the high end because we're not told how long it would take, nor if the whole energy has to go down for a hole to be made.

[Lucky]

4.6 GW would pretty much be the high end anyway.

Why?

For obvious reasons. If it were capable of better, it would have been rated as being capable of going through a force field of a greater energy. It also is the high end because we're not told how long it would take, nor if the whole energy has to go down for a hole to be made.

Given the way shields tend to work in Star Trek, a 4.6 gigawatt shield may be able to resist far more then 4.6 gigawatts.

A couple of anthropologists had a 4.2 gigawatt generator, and that was powerful enough to power a small phaser bank(Who Watches The Watchers). Star Trek "small arms" seem to run off of capacitors rather then straight from the power source keep in mind. One of the CRM-114's selling point is it's fast recharge rate, and looking at the pictures of the CRM-114 I'm thinking it was meant to be mounted on something like a vehicle rather then carried.

[Mr. Oragahn]

4.6 GW would pretty much be the high end anyway.

Why?

For obvious reasons. If it were capable of better, it would have been rated as being capable of going through a force field of a greater energy. It also is the high end because we're not told how long it would take, nor if the whole energy has to go down for a hole to be made.

Given the way shields tend to work in Star Trek, a 4.6 gigawatt shield may be able to resist far more then 4.6 gigawatts.

Unless the tech is 100% efficient, the shield is actually ought to be wasting some of that power.

A couple of anthropologists had a 4.2 gigawatt generator, and that was powerful enough to power a small phaser bank(Who Watches The Watchers). Star Trek "small arms" seem to run off of capacitors rather then straight from the power source keep in mind.

So what?
If an energy figure is given -and it is- then the capacitor question is most certainly already answered.

One of the CRM-114's selling point is it's fast recharge rate, and looking at the pictures of the CRM-114 I'm thinking it was meant to be mounted on something like a vehicle rather then carried.

Yes, fast recharge rate. Still unspecified, and too many unknowns in fact, most of them pulling the firepower down rather than up.

[Picard]

Unless the tech is 100% efficient, the shield is actually ought to be wasting some of that power.

Shields are graviton fields. So shields only need to generate gravitons and hold them in place. Rifle has to create photons and accelerate them. So yes, there is lot of unknown. We don't know how these things are accomplished. We don't know if they incorporate subspace fields (probably yes). We don't exactly know how subspace and realspace interact. Is field blocking energy, or redirecting some of it? Or maybe apsorbing some of it and using it to partially repair itself (there would obviously be limit on that)?

So it might need far more or far less energy to shrug off attack, we just can't know.

[Lucky]

Unless the tech is 100% efficient, the shield is actually ought to be wasting some of that power.

Depending on how the shield work it may cost the same weather it blocks 1 watt or 1 exawatt.

For example if your shield is created through gravity manipulation(like a UFP starship's shields are) then it is possible to create a shield that is immune to say for example laser so long as it is turned on because the attack will never hit the target.

That said there are also electromagnetic shiels in Star Trek as I recall.

The point is that that number could be the defensive capability, or the energy input of a common type of shield.

It could also be Quark just talking gibberish trying to sound like he knows more then he does..

We know from "Return to Grace"
KIRA: This is a standard issue, Cardassian phase-disruptor rifle. It has a four point seven megajoule power capacity, three millisecond recharge two beam settings. 


ZIYAL: How do you know so much about Cardassian weapons? 


KIRA: We captured a lot of them during the occupation. It's a good weapon, solid, simple. You can drag it through the mud and it'll still fire. Now this. (Federation phaser rifle.) This is an entirely different animal. Federation standard issue. It's a little less powerful, but it's got a more options. Sixteen beam settings. Fully autonomous recharge, multiple target acquisition, gyro stabilised, the works. It's a little more complicated, so it's not as good a field weapon. Too many things can go wrong with it.

So what?
If an energy figure is given -and it is- then the capacitor question is most certainly already answered.

Just to be clear are we talking about weapon output, or magazine size?

Data for example has self charging batteries so he never runs out of power, and never has to stop.

Star Trek: Insurrection
DATA: My power cells continually recharge themselves.

Yes, fast recharge rate. Still unspecified, and too many unknowns in fact, most of them pulling the firepower down rather than up.

We have a recharge rate for a Cardassian phaser/Disruptor rifle.


Well recharge rate could mean how often the gun can be shot, or how quickly the magazine refills it's self.

Anyway, given the evidence why is 4.6 GW the high end? No one's going to buy a weapon that is no better then a hand phaser.

Maybe we're talking about different things?