Ultritium

For polite and reasoned discussion of Star Wars and/or Star Trek.
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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Ultritium

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:00 pm

Lucky wrote:What evidence is there the scene was to scale. I can easily find scenes where things are farther then they appear to be in DS9. It's a notable problem DS9 had.
What is it not? It's up to you to prove that there's something wrong in its scales.
What evidence is there that those windows are the size you think they are, or that they are even windows?
1. I considered them to be big windows. Star Trek seems to dig them.
2. I don't see much other use to white rectangles on the external side of a building.
3. We also have the ships flying under the shield, which is erected very close to the surface of the asteroid, so when a ship dumps its payload after approaching the base, we can assume it must be close to the asteroid. Which gives an idea of the asteroid's size.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: If I remember correctly, the plan did go on as smoothly as initially planned.
I rationalized the difference between what was expected and what happened with the idea that it was a worst case scenario, and that we have to understand that Sisko considered to strong possibility of a chain reaction going on.
The problem is the characters do nothing to support this theory. They never do or say anything to show that the explosion was anything other then the insanely large boom they planned on.
They did get the big boom in the end. It's just that the unplanned part occurred before they'd even think about reacting. In fact, the only person who would know that something is not exactly as violent as planned is the sensor guy, and not only by the time he may have taken a decision, the whole asteroid did blow up, but he may have had something else in mind, knowing that he was going to die.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: It's a problem if they had the possibility to go FTL or at least use warp at STL to quickly reach high percentages of c, but then I'm not the one who wrote that episode.
Perhaps activating such systems is considered unsafe when flying close to explosive things.
The problem is that reaching relativistic speeds is repeatedly shown to be easy for the Federation.

The Phoenix(first contact) was able to easily reach 20,000 km/s before going to warp.

People joke about how they're not suppose to go 70% the speed of light in Titan's atmosphere like they were talking worrying about getting a speeding ticket(Chain of Command).

It seems like Deep Space nine with only the six thrusters might have been able to get far enough from the blast with ease(Emissary)

The scene as shown doesn't make sense.
So we can scrap it.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Antimatter is, most of the time, shown to have normal explosion yields. Be it from torps or capital ships having their cores blow up.
Well, at least as far as I've read on Internet.
Warpcores are stated to commonly implode,...
Warpcores, not antimatter. Who knows, it may just be an after effect of the containment. Perhaps they produce a vacuum. Perhaps that in order to get the best reaction possible between matter and antimatter, they generate massive forces that converge, and that if there's a misalignment at some point, it will pretty much look like an implosion. Only to expand normally just after that.
... and are just strange to the point that they may not actually be matt/anti-matter reactors.
They are.
Some quotes point to the Dilithium actually being the power source somehow. After researching the topic, I'm doubting that anything that would come out of a warpcore would be normal matter/anti-matter.
And I doubt that very strongly.

Lucky
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Re: Ultritium

Post by Lucky » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:03 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: What is it not? It's up to you to prove that there's something wrong in its scales.
I already feel I have, but this will be addressed farther below.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: 1. I considered them to be big windows. Star Trek seems to dig them.
2. I don't see much other use to white rectangles on the external side of a building.
3. We also have the ships flying under the shield, which is erected very close to the surface of the asteroid, so when a ship dumps its payload after approaching the base, we can assume it must be close to the asteroid. Which gives an idea of the asteroid's size.
1) It is not uncommon for glowy bits to be the same color, but be different things.

2) You may see no use for white rectangle shaped glowy bits, but that doesn't mean they are windows. It sounds strange, but it's true that the same color glowy bits are not always the same thing. i doubt all the rectangle shaped glowy bits on Federation ships are all windows because they seem to at times be in odd areas for windows.

3) Large mountains appear closer then they are because they are so big. How can you be sure something like that is not happening?(weak, I know, but it needs to be addressed).

Mr. Oragahn wrote: They did get the big boom in the end. It's just that the unplanned part occurred before they'd even think about reacting. In fact, the only person who would know that something is not exactly as violent as planned is the sensor guy, and not only by the time he may have taken a decision, the whole asteroid did blow up, but he may have had something else in mind, knowing that he was going to die.
No there would be at least three people who would know how far they had made it, helm, the Captain(in this case Sisko), and tactical. Others would at least have a good idea how fast ships normally travel, and how long they had been traveling.

If multiple people believe they have traveled X, but Y is shown then things are likely not to scale. In Deep Space Nine the Visual Effects Artists tended to go for dramatic over accuracy.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: So we can scrap it.
I assume a rather fast blast wave as a possibility. Star Trek seems to love FTL shock waves.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Warpcores, not antimatter. Who knows, it may just be an after effect of the containment. Perhaps they produce a vacuum.
The fact warpcores are stated to often implode(Generations, Conspiracy) is odd from an out of universe perspective because they are pressurized(Caretaker).

Caretaker
JANEWAY: What's the warp core pressure?

CAREY: Twenty one hundred kilopascals.

The pressure at sea level is 101.36 kilopascals as I understand it.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Perhaps that in order to get the best reaction possible between matter and antimatter, they generate massive forces that converge, and that if there's a misalignment at some point, it will pretty much look like an implosion. Only to expand normally just after that.
Cold Front
TUCKER: The gravimetric field displacement manifold, commonly known as the warp reactor. Just think of it as a great big engine but instead of using electricity or chemical fuel it runs on antimatter. See this swirling light? When matter and antimatter collide it creates a whole lot of energy. We channel that energy through those conduits over there. They lead to the two large glowing cylinders you may have seen on the outside of the ship.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: They are.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: And I doubt that very strongly.
There is some conflicting information between Cold Front, and some later(from an in-universe perspective) episodes, but Cold Front makes no mention of dilithium.

Live Fast And Prosper
VARN: Most of your technology is outdated. 

DALA: Show him the mothership, Mister Chakotay. 

ZAR: USS Voyager. Intrepid class, fifteen decks of the most advanced technology you'll find anywhere. Dilithium powered warp engines, integrated bio-neural circuitry, holodecks. 

VARN: Is this a typical Federation vessel? 

DALA: Every ship in the fleet is built to exacting standards but I'd be lying if I told you I didn't think Voyager was exceptional. As her Captain, I'm not entirely objective. I'm sure you feel the same way about your ship. 

VARN: It is my home.


The Chute
JANEWAY: I assure you, Ambassador, my people had nothing to do with this attack. 

LIRIA [on viewscreen]: We found chemical traces of the explosive used in the bombing on their hands and clothing. 

CHAKOTAY: I'm sure the same could be said of anyone who was near the explosion. It's hardly enough evidence for a conviction. 

LIRIA [on viewscreen]: The explosive was trilithium based. There is no source of trilithium anywhere in our system. So, you can imagine our surprise when our investigation revealed that your ship is powered by dilithium, which our scientists tell us is convertible into trilithium. We have long suspected that the so-called Open Sky Terrorists had off-world collaborators. Now we know who they are.


Equinox Part 1
CHAKOTAY: Before we abandon the Equinox we should try to salvage any useful components. Let's start with your dilithium crystals. 

GILMORE: What we have left of them. I'm afraid we only have a few isograms. 

KIM: That's barely enough to power the sonic showers.

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Praeothmin
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Re: Ultritium

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:08 pm

Then there you go, Dilithium crystals are used to power the ship along with the M/AM reaction...

Lucky
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Re: Ultritium

Post by Lucky » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:00 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Then there you go, Dilithium crystals are used to power the ship along with the M/AM reaction...
It rather nicely explains why they surpass E=MC^2

Nowhereman10
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Re: Ultritium

Post by Nowhereman10 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:22 am

I always thought that it'd been established in Trek that dilithium made the ship much more powerful, like what we see in the Classic Trek episodes "Mudd's Women" and "The Alternative Factor".

Mike DiCenso
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Re: Ultritium

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:29 am

Yes, it is true. When the ship's dilithium supply got stolen or damaged, it pretty much killed the ship's power in a bad way. We see this right up to the movies set in the TOS-era. That's a major sub-plot of "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home" when our heroes discover their commandeered Bird of Prey's dilithium is breaking down. Interestingly enough, Scotty even complains that the Klingon dilithium is crap for quality implying there's a refining process involved.

By fortunate happenstance, we don't hear much about dilithium problems on TNG-era ships, probably because of the regeneration process discovered in the aforementioned movie.
-Mike

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