Geonosis Arena, Jedi & Sith forcesub vs Dominion

[Mike DiCenso]

Maybe, but as far as I remember, ST shields don't actually use lot of energy when up, unless blocking shots. So it probably means that forcefield can stop 4.6 GJ worth of energy before failing. So, if Breen cannoin fires bolts, each would have been >4.6 GJ. If it fires continuous beam, however, it doesn't say much, beacouse we don't know timeframe... it could be 2.3 GW over 2 seconds or 7.7 MW over one minute...

The forcefield Soran used to protect his base in ST:Generations was rated at 50 GW. So I don't see that 4.6 GJ shield would be less than 4.6 GW to cut through it effectively in any reasonable timeframe. Anything significantly less than that would be pointless. From the scenes of the demonstration, the two armored targets destroyed within seconds, again indicating high power output.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

I capped the CRM-114 to 1 MJ. Besides, it only says it could fire through a 4.6 GJ forcefield, which is a very vague statement considering we know nothing about the power of the field, nor the shield surface area (energy could easily be spread over each square centimeter).

Maybe, but as far as I remember, ST shields don't actually use lot of energy when up, unless blocking shots. So it probably means that forcefield can stop 4.6 GJ worth of energy before failing. So, if Breen cannoin fires bolts, each would have been >4.6 GJ. If it fires continuous beam, however, it doesn't say much, beacouse we don't know timeframe... it could be 2.3 GW over 2 seconds or 7.7 MW over one minute...

On the other hand Mike gave that figure of 50 GW for Soren's shield. So one shield can only absorb X joules, while the other... will absorb anything at or under 50 GW?
Some shields are also known to have arcs.
Finally, the fact that the weapon fires a beam doesn't help much. In the case of getting through a 4.6 GJ force field, they could just position the weapon like if mounting some kind of tripod gun and keep firing.
Now, with the volume of that thing, I wouldn't see any problem for it being capable MW beams at max, surely.
Still, I capped that gun to some tank-like yields because otherwise it would have been total murder.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I remember seeing Jedi getting gunned down like there was no tomorrow. Hell, their battle cry might as well have been "LEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYY JEEEEEEEEENKIIIIIIIIIIINNNSSSSSS!"

Actually few are seen getting killed, and it mainly happens when you see a group of them being forced to move backwards.
The vast majority of the time, you have all those Jedi in the background not even remotely threatened by several droids standing a couple of meters away from them.

[Praeothmin]

The vast majority of the time, you have all those Jedi in the background not even remotely threatened by several droids standing a couple of meters away from them.

Nope, that's not what we see...
Once the fighitng starts, we see Jedi twirling their blades, deflecting blaster bolts left and right...

Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVv4OBbONVU

3 min 6 sec

That's not a high RoF, that's just Phaser rifles modified to emit widening pulses...

[Mr. Oragahn]

You cannot spot the reality of what's going playing the video at normal speed.
Frame by frame is far more revealing. ;)
Some Jedi deflect some bolts, but you're really missing all the facts there, namely that this would have been over within 1 minute if the Jedi had been exposed to real rifle fire (high ROF) from multiple angles (barrages) against great numbers (which didn't have any effect here) at any range (droids only fire at very close range and can't hit shit).

But if you want to say that the accuracy of the entire count of Dominion troops isn't even matching the abyssal accuracy of the sum of all these B1 and SB droids, be my guest. I still find this position curious coming from a Trekkie though.

[Praeothmin]

1 minute if the Jedi had been exposed to real rifle fire (high ROF) from multiple angles (barrages) against great numbers (which didn't have any effect here) at any range (droids only fire at very close range and can't hit shit).

If you compare it to real life fighting, of course the Droid's aim is abysmal, but even ST aim isn't up to real-life accuracy...

But if you want to say that the accuracy of the entire count of Dominion troops isn't even matching the abyssal accuracy of the sum of all these B1 and SB droids, be my guest.

What I'm saying is that, while accuracy in ST is better than in SW, isn't not far above what we see...
In NEM, troops in a corridor, barely a dozen meters from from another, were missing each other regularly, so no, I don't believe accuracy in ST is super good, just that it's better than in SW...

I still find this position curious coming from a Trekkie though.

I am a very moderate Trekkie, as my posts here have shown in the past...
I just don't think the Cardassians and Jem'Hadar can take on a hundred powerful Sith...

[Khas]

The Siege of AR-558 disagrees with you when it comes to ST accuracy.

[Mr. Oragahn]

1 minute if the Jedi had been exposed to real rifle fire (high ROF) from multiple angles (barrages) against great numbers (which didn't have any effect here) at any range (droids only fire at very close range and can't hit shit).

If you compare it to real life fighting, of course the Droid's aim is abysmal, but even ST aim isn't up to real-life accuracy...

I have seen the count from TNG episodes and it was very good. In most of Trek, shots miss and either land on a wall close to the target, on a crate which the target ducks behind, or doesn't hit because the target is far and moving.
It's not just accuracy but also a question of when they fire. SW droids wait like ages to shoot at a target that is massively exposed. I don't recall such a general scheme from Star Trek.
In the end, this actually produces an extremely low density of accurate shots.

But if you want to say that the accuracy of the entire count of Dominion troops isn't even matching the abyssal accuracy of the sum of all these B1 and SB droids, be my guest.

What I'm saying is that, while accuracy in ST is better than in SW, isn't not far above what we see...
In NEM, troops in a corridor, barely a dozen meters from from another, were missing each other regularly, so no, I don't believe accuracy in ST is super good, just that it's better than in SW...

And iirc, they had taken cover.
Not to say that Nemesis, in light of the massive amount of other pieces of fiction, weighs little on the final average.
I know that aiming in TNG is usually very good. What about aiming in DS9?

I still find this position curious coming from a Trekkie though.

I am a very moderate Trekkie, as my posts here have shown in the past...
I just don't think the Cardassians and Jem'Hadar can take on a hundred powerful Sith...

But have you attempted to estimate just how many droids, and therefore, how many Dominion troops those Jedi & Sith would face? Because the term Jedi may sound impressive, but in the arena, the group that remained was very little compared to those who arrived.

[Picard]

I capped the CRM-114 to 1 MJ. Besides, it only says it could fire through a 4.6 GJ forcefield, which is a very vague statement considering we know nothing about the power of the field, nor the shield surface area (energy could easily be spread over each square centimeter).

Maybe, but as far as I remember, ST shields don't actually use lot of energy when up, unless blocking shots. So it probably means that forcefield can stop 4.6 GJ worth of energy before failing. So, if Breen cannoin fires bolts, each would have been >4.6 GJ. If it fires continuous beam, however, it doesn't say much, beacouse we don't know timeframe... it could be 2.3 GW over 2 seconds or 7.7 MW over one minute...

On the other hand Mike gave that figure of 50 GW for Soren's shield. So one shield can only absorb X joules, while the other... will absorb anything at or under 50 GW?
Some shields are also known to have arcs.
Finally, the fact that the weapon fires a beam doesn't help much. In the case of getting through a 4.6 GJ force field, they could just position the weapon like if mounting some kind of tripod gun and keep firing.
Now, with the volume of that thing, I wouldn't see any problem for it being capable MW beams at max, surely.
Still, I capped that gun to some tank-like yields because otherwise it would have been total murder.

If it fired beams, it is probably 4.6 GW... I mean, this is same series where 12.75 billion gigawatts per second is measure of constant power production. It wouldn't be unusual if Trek writers made yet another error.

EDIT: As for Star Trek accuracy, aren't hand phasers (and "hair-dryer" type rifles) aimed by simply looking at target? Only later, with increased use of pulse mode on rifles, do we get something that actually looks like modern assault rifle, when you have to aim by looking down the sights.

[Praeothmin]

The Siege of AR-558 disagrees with you when it comes to ST accuracy.

Yeah, sure, people coming at them running in tight rock corridors show us great accuracy...

The RoF, again, is nothing like in SW, and while the droids are dumb and inefficient, you reduced the number of opponents of the Sith by a factor of five.
Plus, in the arena, you ignore tha fact that with such bad shooting, stray shots are much more of a danger to Jedi, where Precog has been shown time and again that it is mostly good against attacks the Jedi know are coming...
Against ST troops with better aim?
The Sith will see who is shooting at them, and themore precise shots increase the chances if them being deflected by the Sith, sometimes in the face of the attackers...
With 5 times less attackers, their numbers will be reduced quite fast...
The breen weapon will not be more efficient than the big ass sonic gun the Geonosians fired at the Jedi next to the pillars in the arena, and as soon as the Sith get into melee range, the attackers are fucked...
I'm sorry, but I don't see this as a victory for the ST forces, and you'll be hard pressed to convince me...

[Khas]

Maybe you missed the fact that virtually every shot hit its target. As opposed to SW accuracy, where they need to saturate the area with fire to hope something hits. As Obi-Wan said, the blaster is a clumsy and random weapon.

[Picard]

70 - 80 % accuracy, on quick estimate. For single-shot mode, and under such stress and low range, that's quite good, even if you account for Jem'Hadar not using cover.

[Praeothmin]

Maybe you missed the fact that virtually every shot hit its target. As opposed to SW accuracy, where they need to saturate the area with fire to hope something hits. As Obi-Wan said, the blaster is a clumsy and random weapon.

Good, so the guys at AR-558 were master marksmen...
Now why the heck didn't those officers on the E-E in NEM shoot as well, praytell?
Are we, again, using one example to create an average for one side, while ignoring the many times such accuracy was not shown?
Such as in ST:GEN, pretty much all of VOY, ENT when the MACOs were not the ones shooting, TNG, and most of DS9...

[Khas]

May I present to you "Way of the Warrior".

And Star Trek: First Contact.

As for Nemesis, it could be that the people there were green newbies.

[Picard]

And it was in corridors, where you don't have much time to react. And given losses during Dominion War, it is indeed possible they were "green".