Geonosis Arena, Jedi & Sith forcesub vs Dominion

[Mr. Oragahn]

First of all, you must determine the numbers of troops that were on both sides during the original event, based on movie and novelization evidence, and eventually on very reliable EU if numbers don't suffice.

Secondly, you substitute both sides' forces according to those rules:

Dominion Forces
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Swap Trade Federation droids with Dominion troops.
Do not pay attention to the type of droid.
Proceed thusly: for five droids, you get one "unit".
For 100 units, the mileage is as follows:

• 90 Cardassian bog standard soldiers, equipped with basic disruptors. Max yield, tens of kilojoules.
• 8 Jem'Hadar, equipped with a basic disruptor and a cloak (although Jemmies can't fire while cloaked). Regular yield, tens of kilojoules, max yield 100 KJ.
• 1 Breen soldier with a CRM 114: max yield, 5 MJ, fired once a minute. Ballistics are akin to that of a rocket launcher.
• 1 Odo-like Founder, without any weapon (but he/she can pick up any).

For example, if you count five hundred droids, you'll get 100 Dominion troops: 90 Cardassians and 8 Jem'Hadars, plus one Breen and one Founder.

Waves of additional troopers appear at the same time they do in the movie, so try to assess how many droids entered the arena at different times.
The Dominion forces enter the arena the same way the Trade Federation did in the movie, after Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padmé got surrounded. That is, roughly through the same entrances, in the same formations and at the same times, with similar densities of troop formations.

Force Users
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Against them are pitted the same number and type of Force Users as seen in AOTC, but with a twist.
Half of those Force Users actually are Sith.
For 50 Sith, assume the following types:

• 30 Darth Maul types.
• 17 Assaj Ventress types.
• 1 Count Dooku type.
• 1 Darth Vader (post ROTS type).
• 1 Darth Sidious (before sucking his own Force Lightning).

After having counted all soldiers on each side, deal with the decimals the following way: ignore them.
Therefore, if you find that there were like 102 Force Users, you will only find 51 Jedi and 50 Sith fighting together.

On the Jedi side, the best Jedi remain. Those who get traded for Sith are those nameless grunts.

Regarding Force powers, are only accepted movies' ant TCWS' powers only. They're to be used according to the same ratios seen in the movies and TCWS. So no spam of super power if seen only once.
If TCWS' Force powers seem to cartoonish, try to tranpose them to realistic levels.

Extra Info
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The Geonosian sonic guns are unavailable.
The beasts are not present.
Geonosians flee when hostilities begin.
Count Dooku and the Fett aren't present.
The event was only supervised by regular Geonosian nobles, who will flee as well.

Goals
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The Force Users must survive for about 5 minutes until the 4 LAATs arrive and make sure those crafts don't get downed. They have to massacre the Dominion forces.

Dominion forces must kill all Force Users.

Assume that there's no way to get out of the arena safe from above and through two massive doors, and that each tunnel that leads to the arena's central pier or the terraces are linked to some internal circular corridors that tightly surround the arena in some concentric fashion.
The two main doors are located in one of those corridors, at ground level, on opposite sides. This is where the Dominion troops come from and then spread through the internal corridors towards the arena.
Also assume some numerous stair flights.

Consider that if the Dominion forces can't surround the Jedi and the Sith and prevent them from reaching the two massive doors or if they cannot prevent the LAATs from providing air support and landing, then they'll get out of the arena and win, and Dominion forces will be defeated.

Basically, anything that is not listed in this thread is not supposed to be present. LAATs, their clonetroopers and Yoda just came from *somewhere*, as well as the Dominion forces that enter the corridors: it's all in the Matrix!

EDIT: Fixed those damn yields.

[Praeothmin]

I don't see this ending well for the Dominion Force.
Sure, they are more competent than Battle Droids, but you nerfed that advantage by dividing by 5 the number of troops...

I say Jedi have less losses than in the movies, and they survive without any issues...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

First of all, you must determine the numbers of troops that were on both sides during the original event, based on movie and novelization evidence, and eventually on very reliable EU if numbers don't suffice.

Wookieepedia suffices. Both sides' forces were in the millions.

Secondly, you substitute both sides' forces according to those rules:

Dominion Forces
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Swap Trade Federation droids with Dominion troops.
Do not pay attention to the type of droid.
Proceed thusly: for five droids, you get one "unit".
For 100 units, the mileage is as follows:

• 90 Cardassian bog standard soldiers, equipped with basic disruptors. Max yield, tens of terajoules.
• 8 Jem'Hadar, equipped with a basic disruptor and a cloak (although Jemmies can't fire while cloaked). Regular yield, tens of terajoules, max yield in the low megajoule range.
• 1 Breen soldier with a CRM 114: max yield, 1 MJ, fired once a minute. Ballistics are akin to that of a rocket launcher.
• 1 Odo-like Founder, without any weapon (but he/she can pick up any).

Oh, so you're predesignating yield...woah, what?

Terajoules for handweapons?

And you call gigajoules for starship mounted laser cannons wank?

For example, if you count five hundred droids, you'll get 100 Dominion troops: 90 Cardassians and 8 Jem'Hadars, plus one Breen and one Founder.

Waves of additional troopers appear at the same time they do in the movie, so try to assess how many droids entered the arena at different times.
The Dominion forces enter the arena the same way the Trade Federation did in the movie, after Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padmé got surrounded. That is, roughly through the same entrances, in the same formations and at the same times, with similar densities of troop formations.

Force Users
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Against them are pitted the same number and type of Force Users as seen in AOTC, but with a twist.
Half of those Force Users actually are Sith.
For 50 Sith, assume the following types:

• 30 Darth Maul types.
• 17 Assaj Ventress types.
• 1 Count Dooku type.
• 1 Darth Vader (post ROTJ type).
• 1 Darth Sidious (before sucking his own Force Lightning).

After having counted all soldiers on each side, deal with the decimals the following way: ignore them.
Therefore, if you find that there were like 102 Force Users, you will only find 51 Jedi and 50 Sith fighting together.

Regarding Force powers, are only accepted movies' ant TCWS' powers only. They're to be used according to the same ratios seen in the movies and TCWS. So no spam of super power if seen only once.
If TCWS' Force powers seem to cartoonish, try to tranpose them to realistic levels.

Extra Info
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

The Geonosian sonic guns are unavailable.
The beasts are not present.
Geonosians flee when hostilities begin.
Count Dooku and the Fett aren't present.
The event was only supervised by regular Geonosian nobles, who will flee as well.

Goals
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

The Force Users must survive for about 5 minutes until the 4 LAATs arrive and make sure those crafts don't get downed. They have to massacre the Dominion forces.

Dominion forces must kill all Force Users.

Assume that there's no way to get out of the arena safe from above and through two massive doors, and that each tunnel that leads to the arena's central pier or the terraces are linked to some internal circular corridors that tightly surround the arena in some concentric fashion.
The two main doors are located in one of those corridors, at ground level, on opposite sides. This is where the Dominion troops come from and then spread through the internal corridors towards the arena.
Also assume some numerous stair flights.

Consider that if the Dominion forces can't surround the Jedi and the Sith and prevent them from reaching the two massive doors or if they cannot prevent the LAATs from providing air support and landing, then they'll get out of the arena and win, and Dominion forces will be defeated.

The uber Dominion forces crush the opposition with their terajoule level devices that you gave them.




Assuming that that's just a typo, the dominion have no reliable AA weaponry here, no armor support here and no way to take out the Acclamators since you didn't give them a space navy (for good reasons, so as to make this debate different).

[Admiral Breetai]

I don't see this ending well for the Dominion Force.
Sure, they are more competent than Battle Droids, but you nerfed that advantage by dividing by 5 the number of troops...

I say Jedi have less losses than in the movies, and they survive without any issues...

to be fair Data vaporized a concrete aquaduct that snakes for miles out of a village and up a mountain with your average shitty pre war phaser. We don't know that lightsabers can deflect phasers...either due to the dynamics of the weapon.

that founder alone is gonna be problematic especially with plot induced stupidity not here to make it act silly

[Mr. Oragahn]

Numbers I found on wookieepedia state 212 Jedi moved to the arena, and were outnumbered 50 to 1
I greatly recommend trying to verify those numbers as much as possible - I think we're given a number for how many clonetroopers were involved in that battle, and how many Jedi were there to lead them, with one Jedi Master at the head of a squadron or something.
We know that each Master would most likely have a Padawan or a knighted Jedi with them.

According to the rules, this would also mean that they get outnumbered 10 to 1 in this thread, giving the Dominion 2120 troops in total, therefore including several Founders and Breen, about two dozens of each in fact.
Sidenote: Try to establish if the Jedi and Sith can sense them.
The Dominion forces also represent a far more potent force than those silly droids. Even the presence of droidekas didn't prove absolutely decisive as to turn this into a steamroll in favour of the CIS. I think I gave the Dominion troopers fairly more devastating weapons, coupled to the higher accuracy of Trek's troops (relative to the battledroids, at least).
There are several aspects that were overlooked imho.

[Mike DiCenso]

Do the Dominion forces also get the flash bang grenades seen in "What You Leave Behind"? I assume the Jem' Hadar can also cloak as well, too, and may even choose to enter the area along with the disguised Founder that way, while the Cardassians and Breen distract the uber Dark Side group.
-Mike

[Picard]

90 Cardassian bog standard soldiers, equipped with basic disruptors. Max yield, tens of terajoules.

Maximum yield tens of terajoules? That is not disruptor, it is disruptor bazooka. mind you, hand phaser has DET of 600-odd MW, and phaser rifle around 1 GW.

[Mr. Oragahn]

90 Cardassian bog standard soldiers, equipped with basic disruptors. Max yield, tens of terajoules.

Maximum yield tens of terajoules? That is not disruptor, it is disruptor bazooka. mind you, hand phaser has DET of 600-odd MW, and phaser rifle around 1 GW.

I wasn't careful. I meant kilojoule. But after all these years likening terajoules to kilotons, I may make some errors regarding the use of the kilo and tera prefixes. :D
It's an infantry weapon, I wouldn't give them nuclear firepower in an arena, people.

[Admiral Breetai]

the sand their fighting on may end up being lethal to them...and the air they're all breathing etc etc

[Mith]

First of all, you must determine the numbers of troops that were on both sides during the original event, based on movie and novelization evidence, and eventually on very reliable EU if numbers don't suffice.

Wookieepedia suffices. Both sides' forces were in the millions.

Secondly, you substitute both sides' forces according to those rules:

Dominion Forces
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Swap Trade Federation droids with Dominion troops.
Do not pay attention to the type of droid.
Proceed thusly: for five droids, you get one "unit".
For 100 units, the mileage is as follows:

• 90 Cardassian bog standard soldiers, equipped with basic disruptors. Max yield, tens of terajoules.
• 8 Jem'Hadar, equipped with a basic disruptor and a cloak (although Jemmies can't fire while cloaked). Regular yield, tens of terajoules, max yield in the low megajoule range.
• 1 Breen soldier with a CRM 114: max yield, 1 MJ, fired once a minute. Ballistics are akin to that of a rocket launcher.
• 1 Odo-like Founder, without any weapon (but he/she can pick up any).

Oh, so you're predesignating yield...woah, what?

Terajoules for handweapons?

And you call gigajoules for starship mounted laser cannons wank?

For example, if you count five hundred droids, you'll get 100 Dominion troops: 90 Cardassians and 8 Jem'Hadars, plus one Breen and one Founder.

Waves of additional troopers appear at the same time they do in the movie, so try to assess how many droids entered the arena at different times.
The Dominion forces enter the arena the same way the Trade Federation did in the movie, after Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padmé got surrounded. That is, roughly through the same entrances, in the same formations and at the same times, with similar densities of troop formations.

Force Users
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Against them are pitted the same number and type of Force Users as seen in AOTC, but with a twist.
Half of those Force Users actually are Sith.
For 50 Sith, assume the following types:

• 30 Darth Maul types.
• 17 Assaj Ventress types.
• 1 Count Dooku type.
• 1 Darth Vader (post ROTJ type).
• 1 Darth Sidious (before sucking his own Force Lightning).

After having counted all soldiers on each side, deal with the decimals the following way: ignore them.
Therefore, if you find that there were like 102 Force Users, you will only find 51 Jedi and 50 Sith fighting together.

Regarding Force powers, are only accepted movies' ant TCWS' powers only. They're to be used according to the same ratios seen in the movies and TCWS. So no spam of super power if seen only once.
If TCWS' Force powers seem to cartoonish, try to tranpose them to realistic levels.

Extra Info
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

The Geonosian sonic guns are unavailable.
The beasts are not present.
Geonosians flee when hostilities begin.
Count Dooku and the Fett aren't present.
The event was only supervised by regular Geonosian nobles, who will flee as well.

Goals
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

The Force Users must survive for about 5 minutes until the 4 LAATs arrive and make sure those crafts don't get downed. They have to massacre the Dominion forces.

Dominion forces must kill all Force Users.

Assume that there's no way to get out of the arena safe from above and through two massive doors, and that each tunnel that leads to the arena's central pier or the terraces are linked to some internal circular corridors that tightly surround the arena in some concentric fashion.
The two main doors are located in one of those corridors, at ground level, on opposite sides. This is where the Dominion troops come from and then spread through the internal corridors towards the arena.
Also assume some numerous stair flights.

Consider that if the Dominion forces can't surround the Jedi and the Sith and prevent them from reaching the two massive doors or if they cannot prevent the LAATs from providing air support and landing, then they'll get out of the arena and win, and Dominion forces will be defeated.

The uber Dominion forces crush the opposition with their terajoule level devices that you gave them.




Assuming that that's just a typo, the dominion have no reliable AA weaponry here, no armor support here and no way to take out the Acclamators since you didn't give them a space navy (for good reasons, so as to make this debate different).

This is naturally of course, why we're told at the beginning of the movie that they had ten thousand units ready for Republic deployment, right?

I mean, seriously.

In any case, the Dominion takes this. They're going to take heavy losses, but they've got the enemy encircled, have the height advantage, the number advantage, and the Jedi/Sith cannot dodge them all. We saw that Dooku was pretty much outmatched by a dozen guys pointing guns at them.

Logistics wise, the Dominion probably had the advantage here.

EDIT

No, the Jedi/Sith are not likely to be able to sense the Founders until maybe the last moment--maybe not even then. We saw Anakin get surprised by that duck thing and I'm pretty sure that's not the only example of a Jedi/Sith being caught off guard.

All in all, the Jedi/Sith get riddled full of smoldering holes. The number disparity is not at all good when one side has guns and the other side does not. Force powers make up for that a bit--but even force yank/push and force lightning isn't going to turn the tide of that fight.

[Mike DiCenso]

This will be a very close and very bloody battle for both sides. If the Dominion forces use common sense tactics, they will cause a lot of damage to the Sith sub forces, especially if the expendable Jem'Hadar create a sufficent distraction for the Breen with those nasty CRM-114s that actually are good up for up to 4.6 gigajoules per shot. Which means they'll be capable of making 5 tons of TNT explosions all over the place unless the Sith forces can deflect the beams. Of course, if the Breen and the Founder are half-way smart, they'll quickly adapt their tactics into firing indirectly at the Sith since explosions of that size will cause a lot of peripheral damage.
-Mike

[Mith]

Assuming that the pulses won't explode upon impact with the targets. Plasma seems to be able to be deflected by lightsabers, but I wouldn't bet my life on it working against most Trek weapons.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Do the Dominion forces also get the flash bang grenades seen in "What You Leave Behind"?

Nope. Only guns.

I assume the Jem' Hadar can also cloak as well, too, and may even choose to enter the area along with the disguised Founder that way, while the Cardassians and Breen distract the uber Dark Side group.
-Mike

They have access to cloaks, but can't fire while cloaked. They can obviously flank their enemies with this advantage though, and eventually shoot and fade away and move around, assuming they cannot be sensed by Force users, which is a big IF. This is actually to be settled in the debate as well.

[Mike DiCenso]

Nope. Only guns.

Too bad. The flash bang grenades along with the Breen CRMs would be very useful in stunning and killing the Sith.

They have access to cloaks, but can't fire while cloaked. They can obviously flank their enemies with this advantage though, and eventually shoot and fade away and move around, assuming they cannot be sensed by Force users, which is a big IF. This is actually to be settled in the debate as well.

I can't recall if we have ever seen a situation where a Force user has had to fight such an opponent.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Perhaps in TCWS, GL may have introduced some invisible enemies.
Luke had to deal with some invisible humanoid wolf in Zahn's trilogy. The creature didn't have a cloak, but it could blend rather perfectly in some shadowy areas I think.
Still, if Jedi and Sith use the Force to probe their enemies and get a better reading of the battlefield, they'll immediately sense that their Force senses record stuff that their eyes can't see.
But does that happen?