The Executor vs The Neg'var

[Admiral Breetai]

battle of two monster capital ships!

fight takes place in orbit over khitomer Martok in command he gets one Vorcha class and four BOP's as back up

Piet gets four ISD's as back up


hows this go?

[Mith]

*sigh*

The Neg'var.

Range, superior STL, firepower, and defensive abilities pretty much put it in the bag for the Klingon flagship. The Executor...while it stands more of a chance than most ships and could toss out the firepower to easily crippled or destroy a UFP ship via a broadside, is something easily avoided by comfortably moving outside their weapons range.

[Admiral Breetai]

I mean what ever the Neg'var came off like the most powerful ship in ST outside of those multi mile sized Dominion cap ships and of course the scimitar and a Cube but I'd think the sheer size of an SSD and the amount of guns would give it a decent shot

[Mith]

I mean what ever the Neg'var came off like the most powerful ship in ST outside of those multi mile sized Dominion cap ships and of course the scimitar and a Cube but I'd think the sheer size of an SSD and the amount of guns would give it a decent shot

They still don't stand a chance. The SSD is not going to be able to do any real damage to the Neg'var unless it can get in close enough and target it with enough of their guns to overwhelm their shields. The Neg'Var is too fast and chances are most of the turrets are not going to adjust fast enough to deliver the sort of firepower they need to destroy or cripple the Neg'Var.

The Executor, through sheer size, is probably one of the most dangerous ships that an ST ship can face, but once it's out of its effective combat range or immediate hit range for that matter, the Neg'Var can easily just spam it with torpedoes and disruptor cannons. The Executor might be able to screen the torpedoes with its turbolasers and its massive size might allow it to resist maybe a dozen torpedoes, but the STL and weapon range distances are just far too great.

The only way the Executor could win would be if the Neg'Var had a limit to how far it was able to move--and possibly a handicap on its STL, since it could probably fly circles around the Executor (although, it's incredibly bulky, so it would be rather predictable patterns, the gunners might be able to hit that).

[StarWarsStarTrek]

What is the point of these threads? Breentai, you already have an answer in your mind, and I have mine, and the debate would quickly devolve into arguing about the same thing.

*sigh*

The Neg'var.

Range,

Watch the Borg cube battle in Best of Both Worlds.

superior STL,

See above.

firepower,

As calculated by being screwed over from a solar flare, the Enterprise's shields have fallen to megajoules of energy before.

and defensive abilities

Why did Voyager not use these defensive abilities to stop a slow moving space capsule from breaching its hull, despite having advance warning?

pretty much put it in the bag for the Klingon flagship. The Executor...while it stands more of a chance than most ships and could toss out the firepower to easily crippled or destroy a UFP ship via a broadside, is something easily avoided by comfortably moving outside their weapons range.

"Outside the Executor's weapon range" is well outside the weapons ranges shown in the Borg Cube battle and the Dominion war battles. This is especially true given the starfighters that the Executor carries, essentially giving it a carrier-esque range advantage over the pure battleship-esque Neg'var.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Watch the Borg cube battle in Best of Both Worlds.

A example of FED ships CHOOSING to fight at close range does not alter the fact there is also material showing them fighting at long range.

See above.

Ditto.

As calculated by being screwed over from a solar flare, the Enterprise's shields have fallen to megajoules of energy before.

1. Your bullshit about the shields getting screwed over by a solar flare was destroyed in the thread you posted it, and as it was pointed out the E-D sat at 150,000km from the star in Relics WITHOUT shields up for a long period of time without taking damage.

2. A SSD got butt fucked by a tiny A-WING hitting its bridge.

Why did Voyager not use these defensive abilities to stop a slow moving space capsule from breaching its hull, despite having advance warning?

Because the capsule was specifically designed by a individual with full familiarity with voyagers systems and knowledge how to circumvent them.

[Mith]

Watch the Borg cube battle in Best of Both Worlds.

1) Visuals are not always accurate.

2) This is the Neg'Var, not the Borg cube.

See above.

Which doesn't at all address the argument, as seen above.

As calculated by being screwed over from a solar flare, the Enterprise's shields have fallen to megajoules of energy before.

From Relics? Data calculated that at the current rate of increased solar flare activity, it would take three hours for the the Enterprise's shields to fail--and that was when they were already missing like, 60%-70% of their shields to begin with.

Why did Voyager not use these defensive abilities to stop a slow moving space capsule from breaching its hull, despite having advance warning?

This has already been answered in another thread.

"Outside the Executor's weapon range" is well outside the weapons ranges shown in the Borg Cube battle and the Dominion war battles. This is especially true given the starfighters that the Executor carries, essentially giving it a carrier-esque range advantage over the pure battleship-esque Neg'var.

Again, nitpicking visuals doesn't do you any favors. My claims stand.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

It's hilarious how you accuse me of "nitpicking visuals" (seeing starships moving within a few hundred meters of a giant borg cube is not a nitpick), because obviously the reflection of photons is less accurate than the statements of fallible people, while at the same time basing the main (read: entire) chain reaction theory on nitpicking fancy VFX halo rings emitting from Alderaan.

[Mike DiCenso]

Why did Voyager not use these defensive abilities to stop a slow moving space capsule from breaching its hull, despite having advance warning?

You keep bringing this up despite the fact that you have neither cited an episode, much less provided any sort of evidence, such as screen caps, or dialog quotes. Would you kindly provide said evidence, or if not able to, withdraw this example.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

It's hilarious how you accuse me of "nitpicking visuals" (seeing starships moving within a few hundred meters of a giant borg cube is not a nitpick), because obviously the reflection of photons is less accurate than the statements of fallible people, while at the same time basing the main (read: entire) chain reaction theory on nitpicking fancy VFX halo rings emitting from Alderaan.

In a way, flawed as it is, Mith is perfectly in his rights to examine the Alderaan explosion's issues, since most Warsie claims for DET firepower are based on trying to analyze this event's visuals. Thus, if you are going to claim DET and high SW firepower from the Alderaan destruction, it is fair game for examination and criticism by the opposition.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

What is the point of these threads? Breentai, you already have an answer in your mind, and I have mine, and the debate would quickly devolve into arguing about the same thing.]

lol wut? you seriously think we make threads for you? oh lawd! I asked this to the board in general as a means of trying to move us away from the usual shitstorms your responsible for...and to a more passive climate

Watch the Borg cube battle in Best of Both Worlds.

watch Cardassian ships get punked from hundreds of thousands of KM's away hell voy and ent both have that range

balance of terror? the entire fight sequence took place at rapid speeds and fast distances

See above.

no

As calculated by being screwed over from a solar flare, the Enterprise's shields have fallen to megajoules of energy before.

the same calc that lead to you claiming the big E's shields could be brought down by a world war two battleships broad side? yeah no

Why did Voyager not use these defensive abilities to stop a slow moving space capsule from breaching its hull, despite having advance warning?

why do you keep using low end showins from a massively inconsistent series as though it was valid evidence?

"Outside the Executor's weapon range" is well outside the weapons ranges shown in the Borg Cube battle and the Dominion war battles. This is especially true given the starfighters that the Executor carries, essentially giving it a carrier-esque range advantage over the pure battleship-esque Neg'var.

while fighters and bombers likely will pose a problem the Neg'var stood up to DS9's defenses for a brief period of time then tore apart it's bridge shields despite an entire klingon fleet being unable to do this

[Mith]

It's hilarious how you accuse me of "nitpicking visuals" (seeing starships moving within a few hundred meters of a giant borg cube is not a nitpick), because obviously the reflection of photons is less accurate than the statements of fallible people, while at the same time basing the main (read: entire) chain reaction theory on nitpicking fancy VFX halo rings emitting from Alderaan.

I never said you can't use visuals. That's a complete and utter red herring. My argument is that we should argue for what the story is telling us, not any individual source within the story. It would be akin to a religious zealot screaming that the part of the dogma must be followed, but ignoring the rest because it's inconvenient. Focusing primarily on the VFX effects as if they're incapable of making mistakes is in and of itself, a form of nitpicking, just with flimsy justification.

Oh yeah, and Aldeeran was stated in the EU to not have a planetary shield. Ie, I might need to dig up the source, but it was particularly stated that planetary shield would prevent the complete and destruction of the planet, but still utterly scorch the surface of the planet, leaving it lifeless.

But I've already addressed this all before. Stop trying to tack on some sort of hypocritical measure of my stance because you're incapable of debating with the entirety of canon and not just trying to validate shitty VFX.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The Executor would be a silly ship. Why the heck on a thing that huge, they wouldn't mount weapons with more firepower and range than the typical heavy turbolaser that we find both on the ISD and the Death Star surface?

It does not make sense. A 17.6 km long ship ASKS for super weapons of its own.
Still, I don't see how the Executor could logically be harmed. It shields must be total crap if at some point whatever remained of the rebel fleet could bring them down.

[Mith]

The Executor would be a silly ship. Why the heck on a thing that huge, they wouldn't mount weapons with more firepower and range than the typical heavy turbolaser that we find both on the ISD and the Death Star surface?

It does not make sense. A 17.6 km long ship ASKS for super weapons of its own.
Still, I don't see how the Executor could logically be harmed. It shields must be total crap if at some point whatever remained of the rebel fleet could bring them down.

No idea.

My guess is that instead of using the more room for larger power sources for larger, more powerful weapons, they instead just thought to have more of the same. Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but if I guess they were going with the idea of maybe melding a massive warship with lots of room for troops, ground assault vehicles, fighters, bombers, and have enough firepower to engage a small fleet...well, that would make sense.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

It's hilarious how you accuse me of "nitpicking visuals" (seeing starships moving within a few hundred meters of a giant borg cube is not a nitpick).

It makes sense to fight a borg cube at close range as you can far more easily stay in the targeting arc of one side of it and so reduce incoming fire, in fact if you disable some, all or just weaken the weapons on one side then doing so makes perfect sense.