The UFP vs the GE

[Admiral Breetai]

....

The ANH novel confirms that the Empire has 1 million star systems, compared to the Federation's 1000.

your deliberately down playing the number of colonies the feds have

]*Which they don't.

yes they in fact do

I don't want to start a fight, but most calculations put a photon torpedo at around 1 megaton, while even darkstar's calculations for a turbolaser (based on several ridiculous assumptions) is 1.5 megatons. And a star destroyer has a huge load of them. And and they're essentially infinite in ammo, while photon torpedos have a finite payload.

yeah that's why the pay load of a small ship like the defiant is capable of blasted a planet to smoking ash...and Riker was totally fine ordering the destruction of a moon before it was pointed out that doing so would completely negate the purpose of their mission

seriously one megaton? my ass..and theres plenty of canon to contradict that

[User1611]

Seriously? Consider:

UFP.................... GE

Phasers....................Lasers

Universal Translators.....c3PO
Real engineers...........R2D2
Transporters...............shuttles
Quantum torpedoes ......proton torpeodes
Vulcan Mind-meld..........Mind-probes with drugs
Kironide Telekinesis....... The Force
Time-travel..................Force-Prescience
Telepathic suggestion (The Omega Glory)......Jedi mind-trick
Warp-drive..................Tachyonic Hyperdrive
100,000km weapons-range....................5km range
Deflector-shields ....................magnetic shields
tractor/deflector-beams....................tractor-beams only
Replicators....................imports
Impulse power....................Ion-thrusters
point-to-point Subspace communications and network........Network only
Anti-matter....................Fusion
Dilithium crystals...................ionized reaction of compressed interstellar hydrogen
Democratic political structure ........ Monarchy
Refuse to follow upstarts............ends democracy with thunderous applause
Prime Directive ..............pollutes every planet's culture
Perfect cloaking devices........ECM's only
Real doctors................medical droids
Perfect virtual reality.......cheap holographic projectors
Trilithium warheads..........Death Star
Genetic superhumans....... clones

There's just no contest! David Letterman was right: GE SUCKS! LOL

P.S. I've noticed that Darkstar's site gives a lot of edge to the Empire because the Federation bans stuff.... but I don't think that would apply either in another galaxy or if the UFP was in actual danger (HA!)

[User1611]

Code: Select all

What calculations? You mean the ones that skew everything so that photon torpedoes are as weak as possible? Conversely the opposite can be done. If we assume a 9 x 6.5 km asteroid for asteroid from "The Pegasus", and assume total vaporization rather than shattering it to ten meter chunks as most Warsies do, then we get tens to well over a hundred gigatons per each torpedo! See, it works both ways.
-Mike

Phasers also don't vaporize things, that's clear enough from the effect of the beam causing something to disappear without a trace! So it's a much more advanced process than simple DET like blasters and TL's.
The DS Superlaser has something like this, since I've seen the calcs on how the movie-effect couldn't blow up a planet that fast but still leave a ring around the soller.

[Khas]

He was talking about using the torpedoes, KSW.

[User1616]

Who says torpedoes are any different? They can have a matter-disruptive effect like phasers, but more localized, instantaneous and powerful. There's no indication that they're just crude EM explosives.

[Mike DiCenso]

For the most part, photonic and photon torpedoes appear to have big explosive nuke-like affects that are consistant with the idea that the weapons are "conventional" matter-antimatter bombs. In a few episodes, torpedoes have demonstrated subspace and other weirdness, but sometimes only after special modifications.
-Mike

[User1616]

Are there any photon torpedoes in the episode "Balance of Terror?" It doesn't seem so, since they only use phasers and they're pulse-phasers fired from special stations.
They don't even have photon torpedoes available since the phasers malfunction and they can't fire anything at the plasma-blob as it's approaching the enterprise.

[Mike DiCenso]

That's because the writers hadn't come up with the concept for such weapons yet. Despite that, there is no indication a few episodes later in "A Taste of Armageddon" or "Arena" that photon torpedoes were a recent invention of any kind. Everyone there takes them for granted as if they'd always been there.

But this isn't anything unique, the same thing occurs with the Enterprise's shuttlecraft.

The model of the Enterprise had been designed from the get-go by Matt Jefferies with a shuttlecraft hanger and a shuttle design was also available, but the budget for the series did not allow for it to be shown until about the middle of the first season. But in "The Enemy Within", no one even suggests sending a shuttlecraft down to go pick up Sulu the other men stranded by the transporter malfunction, nor do they come up with any kind of an excuse for it. But by the time of "The Menagerie" and most importantly, "The Galileo Seven", no one even bats an eye at shuttlecraft.

So don't get all worked up about stuff like that.
-Mike

[User1618]

That's because the writers hadn't come up with the concept for such weapons yet. Despite that, there is no indication a few episodes later in "A Taste of Armageddon" or "Arena" that photon torpedoes were a recent invention of any kind. Everyone there takes them for granted as if they'd always been there.
-Mike

No they don't. They don't fire them in BoT, so it's a given that they didn't have them since the ship was defenseless without phasers in that episode

Maybe they existed, but just weren't installed on the ship since they weren't at war before BoT. The phasers in BoT were clearly different from the ones seen later also, being beam-phasers locked on target from the bridge rather than pulse-phasers aimed and fired by a forward station.
While phasers are just modified deflector-beams, photon torpedoes are clearly dangerous weapons to have onboard, and would require special handling just like nuclear missiles, and so the Enterprise naturally wouldn't have them onboard at times of peace since it was an exploratory vessel rather han a warship.

[User1618]

That's because the writers hadn't come up with the concept for such weapons yet. Despite that, there is no indication a few episodes later in "A Taste of Armageddon" or "Arena" that photon torpedoes were a recent invention of any kind. Everyone there takes them for granted as if they'd always been there.
-Mike

No they don't. They don't fire any in BoT, so it's a given that they didn't have any since the ship was defenseless without phasers in that episode.

Maybe they existed on other ships, but just weren't installed on the Enterprise in BoT since they weren't at war before the Romulan incident in that episode. The phasers after BoT were clearly different from the ones seen in that episode also, being beam-phasers locked on target from the bridge rather than pulse-phasers aimed and fired by a forward station; so the ship clearly underwent some overhauling of the whole weapons-systems after BoT (which would be pretty obviously a logical thing to do, after what happened in that episode with the Federation getting pwned by the Romulans new weapons of the plasma-torpedo and cloaking-device, as well as being at war with them in general-- if those attacks weren't acts of war, then nothing was).

While phasers are just modified deflector-beams, photon torpedoes are clearly dangerous weapons to have onboard, and would require special handling just like nuclear missiles, and so the Enterprise naturally wouldn't have them onboard at times of peace since it was outfitted as an exploratory peace-vessel rather than a warship before then.

[Mike DiCenso]

That does not make any real sense given the context of the events of "Balance of Terror". The Enterprise was sent to patrol that part of space, so it would be logical for them to go in fully equipped and prepared with all weapons, just in case the Romulans decided to do something, which the Romulans did.

But this isn't the first time photon torpedoes have been forgotten about. In "The Doomsday Machine", the Enterprise only fires phasers, never photon torpedoes. In fact, no one ever even talks about the possibility of such a thing, or why they can't make use of them at any point. It's always been a fan assumption, that like with the Constellation's antimatter pod supplies, that the torpedoes were likewise "deactivated".
-Mike

[User1619]

That does not make any real sense given the context of the events of "Balance of Terror". The Enterprise was sent to patrol that part of space, so it would be logical for them to go in fully equipped and prepared with all weapons, just in case the Romulans decided to do something, which the Romulans did.

That doesn't make sense either; they hadn't heard from the Romulans in 50 years, so it wouldn't make sense to go overhauling the weapons-systems and installing torpedo-tubes equivalent to putting nukes on a battleship just because they were patrolling an area.

And anyway, Roddenberry despised implausible explanations, so you can't claim that they always had them based on the fact that they "didn't act like they were new" at a later date.

But this isn't the first time photon torpedoes have been forgotten about. In "The Doomsday Machine", the Enterprise only fires phasers, never photon torpedoes. In fact, no one ever even talks about the possibility of such a thing, or why they can't make use of them at any point. It's always been a fan assumption, that like with the Constellation's antimatter pod supplies, that the torpedoes were likewise "deactivated".
-Mike

Which would not be the case in BoT.

As for TDM, torpedoes would be useless against a ship that neutrialized antimatter.
Likewise, there was no "talking about it" because Decker was the only one who wanted to fight the thing, the others just wanted to get out of there!

Thus, Decker would have exhaused his torpedoes in his prior battle with it via the Constellation, and found that they were neutralized before impact; so he'd stick to phasers while fighting it onboard the Enterprise.

[mojo]

niiiiiiiiiiiice.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Seriously? Consider:

UFP.................... GE

Phasers....................Lasers

Lasers exist, phasers do not, and at full power can merely vaporize a 50 kg woman.

SW: 1
ST: 0

Universal Translators.....c3PO

Although Universal Translators are more magically translative than C3PO, they cannot store as many languages. Tie.

Real engineers...........R2D2

Shallow semantics. Star Wars has "real" engineers, and R2D2 is far more competent than the entirety of the Enterprise crew, because he actually saves the day instead of causing it with stupid decisions.

SW: 2
ST: 0

Transporters...............shuttles

Transporters that can get interrupted or jammed by the smallest interference, but they are still an advantage, so I'll give ST that.

SW: 2
ST: 1

Transpor
Quantum torpedoes ......proton torpeodes

Proton torpedos range from sub kiloton level for fighting starfighters to gigaton level capital ship busters. Video footage of quantum torpedos hitting a planet put it at megaton range, and it does not execute the 20,000 G turns that proton torpedos do.

SW: 3
ST: 1

Vulcan Mind-meld..........Mind-probes with drugs

Vulcan Mind-Melds hardly matter in a war, unless if they can somehow capture a crew, which is unlikely given the fact that a civilian frigate in Star Wars can hold off a fleet of Federation starships.

Kironide Telekinesis....... The Force

The former of which rarely plays a significant role, the later of which plays a role in every conflict in SW history, has feats on the planetary level and is arguably an intelligent Force (pun lol) with a plan.

SW: 4
ST: 1

Time-travel..................Force-Prescience

The former is rarely ever used to effectiveness, the latter is used often to effectiveness.

SW: 5
ST: 1

Telepathic suggestion (The Omega Glory)......Jedi mind-trick

The former is a trick of the week, the latter can be highly useful in infiltration missions, not that they'd need it with the hilariously incompetent Star Trek security.

SW: 6
ST: 1

Warp-drive..................Tachyonic Hyperdrive

Hyperdrive has speeds in the tens of the millions of C, warp drive has speeds in the thousands of C.

SW: 7 (possibly more, since this is such a crushing advantage)
ST: 1

100,000km weapons-range....................5km range

Excuse me? The borg cube battle and the dominion war battle shows ranges within 10 km for ST, but for SW in the Battle of Endor the ranges are in the hundreds of kms.

SW: 8
ST: 1

Deflector-shields ....................magnetic shields

More shallow semantics, because Star Wars shields can withstand "multi megaton compression bomb" level asteroid impacts for a day, while Star Trek shields could not withstand 500 TJ of kinetic energy from a chasm collapsing.

SW: 9
ST: 1

tractor/deflector-beams....................tractor-beams only

More semantics.

Replicators....................imports

Star Wars has its equivalent to replicators, albeit less often used. It also has a massively larger industrial base thousands of times larger than Star Trek, combined with extremely fast hyperdrive and communication, gives Star Wars the edge over Star Trek. With equal resources, ST may have a slight edge from replicators, but SW's resources and manpower are thousands to millions of times greater.

SW: 10
ST: 1

Impulse power....................Ion-thrusters

More semantics. Even a battle station like the Death Star could accelerate at 67 km/s, far in excess to any ST vessel.

SW: 11
ST: 1

point-to-point Subspace communications and network........Network only

Star Wars communications allow for real time communication across the galaxy. Star Trek communications take six months to send a message across the galaxy.

SW: 12
ST: 1

Anti-matter....................Fusion

No, antimatter vs hypermatter, or fusion for smaller craft, but not nuclear fusion, as it uses fusion of sometimes even heavy metals, which isn't nuclear fusion.

Dilithium crystals...................ionized reaction of compressed interstellar hydrogen

Semantics.

Democratic political structure ........ Monarchy

Cherry picking. The Galactic Republic is a democracy, as is the New Republic and the Galactic Alliance.

Refuse to follow upstarts............ends democracy with thunderous applause

See above.

Prime Directive ..............pollutes every planet's culture

The entire Star Wars galaxy has been effectively colonized and mapped, so your claim has no evidence to it. In contrast, Star Trek protocol calls to leave a civilization about to die from a supernova to die because of the prime directive.

SW: 13
ST: 1

Perfect cloaking devices........ECM's only

A rare advantage for Star Trek.

SW: 13
ST: 2

Real doctors................medical droids

Medical droids of whom are highly competent, and Star Wars also has medical doctors.

Perfect virtual reality.......cheap holographic projectors

An advantage, perhaps, but not one relevant to a vs debate.

Trilithium warheads..........Death Star

The Death Star has more impressive power generation capabilities.

Genetic superhumans....... clones

The former of which is a tech of the week, the latter of which allows for mass produced, competent soldiers, raising an army in secret, on a single planet in two decades.

SW: 14
ST: 2

There's just no contest! David Letterman was right: GE SUCKS! LOL

P.S. I've noticed that Darkstar's site gives a lot of edge to the Empire because the Federation bans stuff.... but I don't think that would apply either in another galaxy or if the UFP was in actual danger (HA!)

Your entire post is filled with semantics/technobabble ("Deflector-shields ....................magnetic shields") that fail to actually analyze anything and outright lies (Star Wars has both medical droids and human doctors).

[Admiral Breetai]

[

Lasers exist, phasers do not, and at full power can merely vaporize a 50 kg woman.

well why in the name of heaven are you responding to a banned members post?

Although Universal Translators are more magically translative than C3PO, they cannot store as many languages. Tie.

they don't need too that's the whole point nice twisting again

Shallow semantics. Star Wars has "real" engineers, and R2D2 is far more competent than the entirety of the Enterprise crew, because he actually saves the day instead of causing it with stupid decisions.

and we're lying again

Proton torpedos range from sub kiloton level for fighting starfighters to gigaton level capital ship busters. Video footage of quantum torpedos hitting a planet put it at megaton range, and it does not execute the 20,000 G turns that proton torpedos do.

ah more lies!! not only is GT fire power not supported by films but the payload of the defiant can planet kill

Vulcan Mind-Melds hardly matter in a war, unless if they can somehow capture a crew, which is unlikely given the fact that a civilian frigate in Star Wars can hold off a fleet of Federation starships.

even troi who's only use was showcasing her massive knockers and stating the obvious had better telepathy feats than anything shown in the SW films with the exception of Vader and Luke's paternal bond

The former of which rarely plays a significant role, the later of which plays a role in every conflict in SW history, has feats on the planetary level and is arguably an intelligent Force (pun lol) with a plan.

show me a clip of Yoda or mace or Sidious using any type of power from the films that even remotely justifies that eu nonsense..or cease bringing it up entirely

The former is rarely ever used to effectiveness, the latter is used often to effectiveness

force prescience being useful really? because preao and I have been over this with you yet you again ignore our evidence and continue making a now false claim

The former is a trick of the week, the latter can be highly useful in infiltration missions, not that they'd need it with the hilariously incompetent Star Trek security.

yeah security so stealthy they nearly successfully pull off a presidential assassination and assisted species wide suicide? so incompetent they manage to out fox an immortal species specifically designed for stealth?

Hyperdrive has speeds in the tens of the millions of C, warp drive has speeds in the thousands of C.

slipstream and transwarp shit on wars ftl from the films


[

Excuse me? The borg cube battle and the dominion war battle shows ranges within 10 km for ST,

liar even scoutships engage in ranges in the hundreds of thousands of KM's and the phoenix had an entire FTL assault at hundreds of thousands of kilometers as did numerous dominion vessels

e]but for SW in the Battle of Endor the ranges are in the hundreds of kms.

LOL no...and protip bro..repeating the same claim that got you in trouble is prolly a bad idea

SW: 8
ST: 1


[

]
More shallow semantics, because Star Wars shields can withstand "multi megaton compression bomb" level asteroid impacts for a day, while Star Trek shields could not withstand 500 TJ of kinetic energy from a chasm collapsing.

this is course another blatant lie that was addressed in another thread




[

]Star Wars has its equivalent to replicators, albeit less often used. It also has a massively larger industrial base thousands of times larger than Star Trek, combined with extremely fast hyperdrive and communication, gives Star Wars the edge over Star Trek. With equal resources, ST may have a slight edge from replicators, but SW's resources and manpower are thousands to millions of times greater.

nowhere in the films was any superior industry shown

More semantics. Even a battle station like the Death Star could accelerate at 67 km/s, far in excess to any ST vessel.

sublight impulse speeds for trek ships are measured as fractions of lightspeed this is stated multiple times through out canon and backed up by the big E going from jupiter to earth under impulse in about twenty minutes or so

Star Wars communications allow for real time communication across the galaxy. Star Trek communications take six months to send a message across the galaxy.

only Voyager many times showed instant real time

No, antimatter vs hypermatter, or fusion for smaller craft, but not nuclear fusion, as it uses fusion of sometimes even heavy metals, which isn't nuclear fusion.

hypermatter not present in the films thus invalidates it's eu canonicity stick to things supported by on screen evidence when attacking defeneless posters in some poor mans attempt to prove your not actually dodging evidence yet painfully obviously doing it

Cherry picking. The Galactic Republic is a democracy, as is the New Republic and the Galactic Alliance.

the GR was about as democratic as the roman republic or Colombia during the reign of Pablo Escobar or prohibition era chicago

e]Medical droids of whom are highly competent, and Star Wars also has medical doctors.

the ability to regenerate entire limbs and organs and all that good stuff

The Death Star has more impressive power generation capabilities.

one wastes solar systems the other planets

The former of which is a tech of the week, the latter of which allows for mass produced, competent soldiers, raising an army in secret, on a single planet in two decades.

the augments are hardly tech of the week and are blatantly superior to clones and the Jem'hadar can be produced faster and much more numerous then on screen examples of clones

hat would apply either in another galaxy or if the UFP was in actual danger (HA!)

Your entire post is filled with semantics/technobabble ("Deflector-shields ....................magnetic shields") that fail to actually analyze anything and outright lies (Star Wars has both medical droids and human doctors).

and you in a hamfisted attempted to show up your detractors attacked a defenseless posters repeating the same arguments you always do even the debunked ones ignoring the other sides evidence entirely and dismissing things left and right

basically your past the point of rule breaking and well into spamming your doing nothing new