The UFP vs the GE

[Admiral Breetai]

alright I've done the Dominion and I've done the more obscure trek powers I'll do this one now. This the Federation about 2410 we'll sport them QSD for the distance issue. Q got bored and basically decided to troll the Feds he created a stable wormhole from the trek Galaxy into former Romulan space near the Neutral zone (we'll say a few romulan colonies after the nova defected to the feds)-a rebel fleet running from the Empire emerges in the former Neutral zone and is rescued by a UFP Patrol ship and taken to a local star base several lightyears away.

the Empire sends an ISD battle group though shots are fired one Rebel ship is destroyed lives are lost an ISD gets blasted to bits and the Empire (in a political move to rally more support to them and from the rebellion) declare war on the "extra Galactic menace" The Federation formally recognize the alliance to restore the republic as a legal continuation of the old republic and sidious government as illegal and invade

Feds get a foothold in the outer rim territories courtesy of the Rebellion a second wormhole opens near Cardassian space that the feds wont know about for a few months.

Jelicho Robert De Soto and Ben Maxwell recently paroled are given command of the Federation advance fleet Admirals William Ross and Owen Paris are given supreme command of the war effort in Imperial space

objectives: Defeat the Empire and collapse of if it's infrastructure and annihilation of it's war making capability. the arrest and trial of all Grand Moff's and Admirals and the arrest and trial of Darth Sidious Aka supreme chancellor palpatine aka Emperor palpatine for high treason and crimes against sentients, the peaceful assisting of the restoration of the republic and the expansion of federation holding into the unknown regions/create a permanent political presence in the galaxy

Imperial Objective: slaughter foreign invaders! Kill the Rebels reverse engineer fed tech if at all possible! and eject the Federation from imperial space and eventually the full scale invasion of the UFP's home galaxy

how does this go?

[User1601]

alright I've done the Dominion and I've done the more obscure trek powers I'll do this one now. This the Federation about 2410 we'll sport them QSD for the distance issue. Q got bored and basically decided to troll the Feds he created a stable wormhole from the trek Galaxy into former Romulan space near the Neutral zone (we'll say a few romulan colonies after the nova defected to the feds)-a rebel fleet running from the Empire emerges in the former Neutral zone and is rescued by a UFP Patrol ship and taken to a local star base several lightyears away.

the Empire sends an ISD battle group though shots are fired one Rebel ship is destroyed lives are lost an ISD gets blasted to bits and the Empire (in a political move to rally more support to them and from the rebellion) declare war on the "extra Galactic menace" The Federation formally recognize the alliance to restore the republic as a legal continuation of the old republic and sidious government as illegal and invade

Feds get a foothold in the outer rim territories courtesy of the Rebellion a second wormhole opens near Cardassian space that the feds wont know about for a few months.

Jelicho Robert De Soto and Ben Maxwell recently paroled are given command of the Federation advance fleet Admirals William Ross and Owen Paris are given supreme command of the war effort in Imperial space

objectives: Defeat the Empire and collapse of if it's infrastructure and annihilation of it's war making capability. the arrest and trial of all Grand Moff's and Admirals and the arrest and trial of Darth Sidious Aka supreme chancellor palpatine aka Emperor palpatine for high treason and crimes against sentients, the peaceful assisting of the restoration of the republic and the expansion of federation holding into the unknown regions/create a permanent political presence in the galaxy

Imperial Objective: slaughter foreign invaders! Kill the Rebels reverse engineer fed tech if at all possible! and eject the Federation from imperial space and eventually the full scale invasion of the UFP's home galaxy

how does this go?

So the Federation is working with the Rebel Alliance?

To begin with, the Treaty of Algernon only applied to designated space, so the Fed can now use cloaking-devices including phase-cloaks.

By cloaking their ships, they can simply kidnap the Emperor, and that ends the GE-- as it did in RotJ.

They can just beam him into stasis, and deliver him to the Rebel Aliance for trial.

It's highly unlikely that the Imperial sensors can detect Federation cloaks, even at the level they were when the Treaty of Algernon halted their progress.
ST cloaks bend both both EM and gravity, leaving no trace-- particularly given their intelligence on the Scimitar-cloaks.

You're talking here about Vikings vs. stealth-jets... as would be their attempts to reverse-engineer ST tech-- even if they were able to get ahold of any; it would take years at best, while the war would be over in days.

Even if they defeated a Federation ship, standard operating procedure in war is to destroy tech before it can be captured by the enemy-- and seen in STIII.

However it's virtually impossible for them to defeat a Federation ship, since warp-combat would be like Jorney to Babel against the Empire.. except unlike the Enterprise, they'd never see the Fed approaching since their sensors are STL.

[Trinoya]

With the rebels providing astrometric data, the federation warp drive and slip stream drive knows where to go and how to get there, removing one of the largest hurdles.

Presuming Imperial Competence, after the first few attacks destroy several important ships the imperials retreat back fully to their core worlds. After the next few attacks by rebels and federation forces continue to harm the galactic empire, Palpatine will attempt to end the war diplomatically.

If the federation does not attempt a decapitation strike before Palpatine can succeed, then the rebels will accept the terms of peace and the 'new republic' will be reformed. Palpatine will sitll have his empire, and the federation will accept the peace terms as they normally would, rather than engage in a protracted engagement. If he doesn't act fast enough the federation conducts a precision decapitation strike.


20 years later, after gaining access to a holodeck, Grand Admiral Thrawn becomes supreme ruler of all known creation and Q regrets trolling the federation.

[User1601]

With the rebels providing astrometric data, the federation warp drive and slip stream drive knows where to go and how to get there, removing one of the largest hurdles.

Presuming Imperial Competence, after the first few attacks destroy several important ships the imperials retreat back fully to their core worlds. After the next few attacks by rebels and federation forces continue to harm the galactic empire, Palpatine will attempt to end the war diplomatically.

If the federation does not attempt a decapitation strike before Palpatine can succeed, then the rebels will accept the terms of peace and the 'new republic' will be reformed. Palpatine will sitll have his empire, and the federation will accept the peace terms as they normally would, rather than engage in a protracted engagement. If he doesn't act fast enough the federation conducts a precision decapitation strike.


20 years later, after gaining access to a holodeck, Grand Admiral Thrawn becomes supreme ruler of all known creation and Q regrets trolling the federation.

If the Federation can use cloaks, and only wants to capture officers, then why go to open warfare? That seems rather crude, when they can simply decapitate without detection. Capture Palpatine and the war's over.

However rather than kill Palpatine, I'd like to see a "Star Trekky" ending where things are settled by superior intellect rather than superior violence... you know, the way things were before "The Wrath of Khan" turned Star Trek to the Dork Side.

In "Errand of Mercy," we saw that the Prime Directive doesn't apply to stagnant cultures; and the Federation learns that this galaxy has been locked in eternal struggle between the Jedi and the Sith for thousands of years.

So they decide to interfere and help them break out of the cycle of endless violence. Dr. Crusher, Data, Dr. Bashir and EMH find out that the whole galaxy is being controlled by midichlorians, which are collectively-intelligent microscopic parasites that infected their galaxy thousands of years earlier, and which were similar to the ones that infedted our galaxy in "Operation: Annhilate!"

And so the Federation doctors and scientists find a cure for the parasites (with the help of EMH, of course), but Palpatine gets on the Enterprise and is zapping the crew with the Sith-lightning., but he wants to torture them for a while first. Then just before he zaps them to death, EMH appears behind him and shoots him in the butt with the hypo-- and then Palpatine turns around and zaps EMH, but of course it does nothing, but the lightinng also disappears as the cure takes over.

So they spread the cure throughout the galaxy, and the days of the Force are over as the midichlorians are purged which kept the galaxy locked in stagnation and war for thousands of centuries. (Sort of Shakespearean, ala "The Tempest" where Prospero abandons his sorcery to symbolize the abandonment of mysticism for the coming of the age of Reason).

Then the Federation shares its technology with the galaxy, and they sign a charter to form an intergalactic order.

And Q is pleased, since he's a total priss who hates violence, and he sent the Federation there to see if they could save that galaxy withou it.


Then a Section 31 reveals that the Q were created by an Earth-experiment during the war against the Romulan-Klingon alliance, by attempting to re-create what happened to Gary Mitchell in "Where No Man has Gone Before," in a secret project that was code-named "Q."
But Kirk halted the experiment because it would be too dangerous, remembering what it did to his best friend, forcing Kirk to kill him... but then when Kirk dies in "Generations," the chief scientist for the project (who later became Q, of course, along with the other scientists), managed to pursuade Starfleet to resume the project-- and so they became absorbed into the Q continuum when it malfunctioned, giving them god-like powers but destroying their memory of the event.

So now the new order has to use their knowledge of galactic energy-fields in order to stop the Q once and for alll...

[Trinoya]

And I'm supposed to care care what you thought about my hypothetical situation (or subsequently yours) because? Oh yeah..

I don't.

[User1601]

And I'm supposed to care care what you thought about my hypothetical situation (or subsequently yours) because? Oh yeah..

I don't.

Sorry, didn't realize it was that time of the month.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

The Federations arriving might actually screw the war in the favor of the Empire. The Rebels won in OTL, the arrival of the Federation might cause the Empire to get more confidence and lose their arrogance, thus causing them to win. This is speculation though.

With the Rebel Alliance helping them, the Federation might actually be able to resist an imperial invasion. The Empire would have to divert a decent amount of troops to conquering the Federation, and then there's less troops to fight the Rebels.

Without the Rebel Alliance though, the Federation's screwed. G canon gives the Empire one million systems...the Federation at its height had a thousand.

That's about the same as the size disparity between the United States and Iceland.

One of the most commonly cited reasons for the Allies winning over the Axis is that they had a huge industrial advantage...that is, an industrial advantage of a factor of around 2-3. The Empire would have an industrial advantage of around 1000.

Which is about the same as the economic disparity between modern day United Kingdom and the Roman Empire.

[Khas]

And yet, you forget, most of those systems had small populations. Tatooine's population was only 400,000. Kashyyyk and Mandalore had populations in the low millions. These aren't some off-the-beaten path worlds mind you. These are considered major worlds in SW. Some worlds like Felucia, were at a stone age level of technology.

[Admiral Breetai]

The Federations arriving might actually screw the war in the favor of the Empire. The Rebels won in OTL, the arrival of the Federation might cause the Empire to get more confidence and lose their arrogance, thus causing them to win. This is speculation though.[

oh theres no doubt about that Sidious head will either role or come out of his ass when he sees he's loosing ships in two or three to one odds with vastly smaller faster vessels

With the Rebel Alliance helping them, the Federation might actually be able to resist an imperial invasion. The Empire would have to divert a decent amount of troops to conquering the Federation, and then there's less troops to fight the Rebels.

the empire cannot survive an invasion of the Alpha quadrant

Without the Rebel Alliance though, the Federation's screwed. G canon gives the Empire one million systems...the Federation at its height had a thousand.

and yet they are so resource poor and shitty that five million clone troopers nigh bankrupts them during war time

That's about the same as the size disparity between the United States and Iceland.

your right..in the Federations favor

One of the most commonly cited reasons for the Allies winning over the Axis is that they had a huge industrial advantage...that is, an industrial advantage of a factor of around 2-3. The Empire would have an industrial advantage of around 1000.

too bad the Empire never showed this in the films..and of course tbhe Feds actually did show gargantuan industrial supremacy

Which is about the same as the economic disparity between modern day United Kingdom and the Roman Empire.

the Rebellion will actually be able to construct proper sized fleets when Mon Calamari gets some mid tier..industrial replicators for a change

[Trinoya]

The primary implications of the industrial replicator technology will be less about fleet building and more about upgrading. The transporter will prove invaluable to a rebellion war effort, especially since smuggling was such a major source of power and income for the rebellion.

[Admiral Breetai]

The primary implications of the industrial replicator technology will be less about fleet building and more about upgrading. The transporter will prove invaluable to a rebellion war effort, especially since smuggling was such a major source of power and income for the rebellion.

true your right I forgot to think on a small scale, when you no longer need to worry about food and medicine..Bacta becomes obsolete and so on. I wonder though if Rebel worlds can start to compete economically with the empire once the feds fully invest in them?

[Trinoya]

Effortlessly. With the associated numbers and the scarcity style economies that could come forth the current design of the economy of star wars would fall apart. Palpatine might be charismatic enough to turn it to his advantage though.

[User1601]

The Federations arriving might actually screw the war in the favor of the Empire. The Rebels won in OTL, the arrival of the Federation might cause the Empire to get more confidence and lose their arrogance, thus causing them to win. This is speculation though.

With the Rebel Alliance helping them, the Federation might actually be able to resist an imperial invasion. The Empire would have to divert a decent amount of troops to conquering the Federation, and then there's less troops to fight the Rebels.

Without the Rebel Alliance though, the Federation's screwed. G canon gives the Empire one million systems...the Federation at its height had a thousand.

WHERE in the G-Canon?
And the Federation had a thousand systems in TOS "and pushing outward--" they had just broken the time-barrier; canon is now 100 years later, they'd have at least twice as many.

Likewise, the Federation doesn't need the Rebel alliance to take over an inferior galaxy that's ruled by pesky midichlorians, and can be taken over by one man.

Remember on "Plato's Stepchildren," they gave themselves a double-dose of Kironide, and took over; well they could just as easily give themselves a TRIPLE dose of midochlorians... or just create a cure for them, and give it to everyone like in "Operation: Annhilate!"

Finally, the Federation has the Prime Directive keepint them from turning our galaxy just as stagnant as the Empire's by infecting every galaxy with Federatlion-technollogy, which would wipe out their identity in favor of the Federation's; that's what obviously happened in the Imperial galaxy, with almost every backwater-boondock planet being having the same tech.

One of the most commonly cited reasons for the Allies winning over the Axis is that they had a huge industrial advantage...that is, an industrial advantage of a factor of around 2-3. The Empire would have an industrial advantage of around 1000.

And an even better technological base; the Axis powers were nowhwere near creating a working nuke. Meanwhile the Federation has warp-drive, transporters, and graviton-based communications, weapons, shields, deflectors and communications, as well as perfect invisibility cloaking-devices (vs. simple stealth sensor-jamming types that the Empire has).

They also have Universal Translators, as well as perfect holograms which are indistinguishable from reality, replicatos which can reproduce virtually anything, as well as real doctors vs. medical robots; meanwhile the new Medical Holograms are far superior to Imperial medical droids.

Which is about the same as the economic disparity between modern day United Kingdom and the Roman Empire.

Again, ONLY because of the Prime Directive. The Imperial Galaxy's simply STAGNANT-- as well as stuck on the Middle Ages as far as poltical freedom and equality.
It's been around for untold thousands of years, and they still don't have the Federation's level of technology, which has only been around for a few hundred-- and continually expanding.

The Federation technology would simply allow Starfleet to use cloaks and transporters to replace key personnel with hologram-enabled imposters, and that would be that.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

....

The ANH novel confirms that the Empire has 1 million star systems, compared to the Federation's 1000. Even if the Federation has superior technology*, the Empire wins by zerg rushing them.




*Which they don't. Hey, another debate blaring! I don't want to start a fight, but most calculations put a photon torpedo at around 1 megaton, while even darkstar's calculations for a turbolaser (based on several ridiculous assumptions) is 1.5 megatons. And a star destroyer has a huge load of them. And and they're essentially infinite in ammo, while photon torpedos have a finite payload.

[Mike DiCenso]

....
The ANH novel confirms that the Empire has 1 million star systems, compared to the Federation's 1000. Even if the Federation has superior technology*, the Empire wins by zerg rushing them.

Which is a gross oversimplification of the issue as you well know. The million systems of the Empire, like the Republic before it, had lots of low-population or no-population worlds making it up (i.e. Naboo, Hoth, Endor, ect). Conversely, the thousand planets quote occurs in TOS, and a century later, we can assume that number has been greatly expanded on. If fact, as has been pointed out in other threads, if we take the context of Kirk's statement to refer only to Earth and it's colonies, then we're looking at realistically hundreds of thousands of planets total since there are properly well over 150 member worlds, exclude associate members and protectorates.

*Which they don't. Hey, another debate blaring! I don't want to start a fight, but most calculations put a photon torpedo at around 1 megaton, while even darkstar's calculations for a turbolaser (based on several ridiculous assumptions) is 1.5 megatons. And a star destroyer has a huge load of them. And and they're essentially infinite in ammo, while photon torpedos have a finite payload.

What calculations? You mean the ones that skew everything so that photon torpedoes are as weak as possible? Conversely the opposite can be done. If we assume a 9 x 6.5 km asteroid for asteroid from "The Pegasus", and assume total vaporization rather than shattering it to ten meter chunks as most Warsies do, then we get tens to well over a hundred gigatons per each torpedo! See, it works both ways.
-Mike