Commentary on StarWarsStarTrek v. Admiral Breetai

[Picard]

True. But you can't simply dismiss everything in some show going contrary or without laws of physics if one particular element is doing so, nor you can simply put something in "SF magic" realm without at least trying to explain it scientifically.

[Admiral Breetai]

don't think I'm advocating that just the right to reject a persons rendition of what is when it's clear many of the things he's applying science too ought not to be

[mojo]

at what point is swst going to realize that ADMIRAL BREETAI NEVER EVEN ACCEPTED THE DEBATE CHALLENGE. he said from post one that he thought it was ridiculous and he had no interest in debating swst. he OF COURSE has a valid point in saying that real world mathematics can't be used to calculate correct figures for anything in a FANTASY UNIVERSE in which EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS ONSCREEN IS SPECIFICALLY INTENDED TO LOOK AWESOME, NOT BE REALISTIC. the fact that that point invalidates the entire purpose of the website, and furthermore, the entire debate itself, doesn't make the point less correct. star trek is less guilty of this, as from everything i've read on the making of the series and whatnot says that science was a major issue to the people behind the scenes - not always a 'is this possible' but at the very least a 'this will probably be possible in the future' behind virtually every decision.
star wars has magic and virgin births and laser swords and ships where the hull can be welded with a common welding torch and copper wire running everywhere. it's just supposed to be cool. nothing in it makes the slightest sense.
on the other hand, i do enjoy reading the debate. but i hardly think anyone can blame breetai for being irritated by fan-made calcs based on such a universe as star wars.

[Admiral Breetai]

I don't think the site nor the debate is invalidated by my stance at all well this particular debate maybe but then again what SWST did wasn't a challenge it was a rant thread coupled with "heres my wild and baseless speculation in my first post that has nothing to do with canon and all things are jury rigged to sate my compulsion to have SW no good luck refuting me in an bait thread where the stipulations obviously bend things in my favor and I am not even remotely interested in actual debate just close minded "nyah nyah I'm right" and I never really had any intention of accepting to indulging in such a topic to begin with as was pointed out

it's a little bit more then just the guys math though his attitude arrogance and the fact that I don't believe based off my experience with SDNers that he has posted anything that wasn't directly based off wongs methods or taken from the site itself

which..honestly Invalidates and taints any conclusions as far as I'm concerned

[mojo]

good christ, man, slow down and put one thought at a time into a sentence. you were clearly implying that trying to use math with regard to star wars power levels was nonsense. don't get scared because i point out that that invalidates the debate itself. i wasn't saying that the debate should stop, only that i agree with you that sometimes you have to admit that it's insane to try to calculate things that were clearly not meant to be calculated in this way.

[Admiral Breetai]

whoopsy

[Praeothmin]

You can't truly debate who's more powerful then, Admiral Breetaï, because all these calcs do is allow us to analyse the respective firepower of both franchises, which we couldn't do if we ignored the calcs...

[Mike DiCenso]

In my capacity as a moderator I must step in here and issue another warning to both SWST and Admiral Breetai for their continuing poor behavior. Examples of this are as follows:

argument, even though he was warned not to:
Since you cannot prove anything that you just posted and refuse to prove anything that you just posted, it is all by default invalid due to burden of proof.

You lose.

Seriously. Nothing that you posted in your post; which, BTW, had horrible grammar and sentence structure filled with run on sentences and "..."'s, had even one shred of evidence backing it up. None of it actually had anything to do with the topic.

perhaps I am in need of repeating myself so that you will understand..calculations and applying science to friggen fantasy especially one in which green decrepit midgets fight hobbled deformed old people in throne rooms in superhuman battles where they toss junk with they're minds and toss lighting out of they're hands...where magical germs give people super powers and knock slaves up and produce psychotic emo jesus babies..is the single most implausible and incredible thing I have ever heard and the idea that your offended when some one refuses to take seriously your attempt to apply math and scientific standards to it you react by calling them stupid is only hilarious and suggests some type of problem

in short..the premises is ridiculous and your a star wars fanboy..so leave your math at home *it will not be acknowledge by me..when ever you post it up*

conversely you don't see me offering up my own math because I don't expect you to waste your time on a premises so irrational as quantifying a universe that seems to fly in the face of all we understand

debate? you aren't interested in debating you have never been interested in debating you didn't make that thread to debate me...you stacked the deck spouted off nonsense..and from day 1 have attempted to ensure everything is in your hands..to ensure you win..you aren't interested in debating just brow beating us with your theories

SWST is getting warned for violating the "no declaring concession accepted" type statements when the opposition has not made any such thing, and Breetai for continuing to dodge around by refusing to accept calculations without giving a rational reason for doing so. It's one thing to say you refuse to accept the calcs, but you must provide reasons why that person's assumptions and or math itself is in error.

If either of you feels this is too harsh, you can appeal to Praeothmin or to Jedi Master Spock.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

hmm for some reason the delete post feature exists no longer

[Praeothmin]

If you're debating on a site based on this "Fan Math", then yes, it is perfectly normal to expect someone who wishes to debate on such a site to show, explain, prove (use whatever word you prefer) the flaw in the calculations or reasoning of their debate adversaries...

[Admiral Breetai]

so let me get this straight you are officially ordering me to disregard canon and canon feats and get side tracked into debating math that not only has zero basis in canon? but also with some one who has never posted any work thats not some one elses and isn't even capable of objective calculations? which is patently obvious when the man tossed out a hundred trillion number for a single planet..and as was pointed out by me in that very thread was basing some of his calcs on stuff that never happened on screen? after you've made a big deal about this place is a bastion of civility and fairness and not adhering to the Draconian standards of SDN- you are officially sanctioning me despite the fact that I'm sticking strictly to debating what your supposed to debate the actual evidence from the movies and accusing me of dodging arguments when I've done nothing of the sort and refusing to deal with a poster who bait threaded multiple posters and has insulted my intelligence?

am I understanding this clearly?

[Mr. Oragahn]

so let me get this straight you are officially ordering me to disregard canon and canon feats and get side tracked into debating math that not only has zero basis in canon? but also with some one who has never posted any work thats not some one elses and isn't even capable of objective calculations? which is patently obvious when the man tossed out a hundred trillion number for a single planet..and as was pointed out by me in that very thread was basing some of his calcs on stuff that never happened on screen? after you've made a big deal about this place is a bastion of civility and fairness and not adhering to the Draconian standards of SDN- you are officially sanctioning me despite the fact that I'm sticking strictly to debating what your supposed to debate the actual evidence from the movies and accusing me of dodging arguments when I've done nothing of the sort and refusing to deal with a poster who bait threaded multiple posters and has insulted my intelligence?

am I understanding this clearly?

Nothing has any basis in canon. When you see someone shoot bullets at some tank, and see bullets ricochet while making sparks with a loud metallic noise, you make an interpretation that since the bullets are made of metal, and the plate they were shot at is also made of metal, and the bullets failed to get through said plate, then the rifle couldn't dent the tank's metal plate. Then, based on the looks of the gun and the looks of the tank, you make all sorts of extrapolations on the technological abilities of both sides.
You don't need a calc because it's straight forward enough, although you could make one if you really wanted to talk about RHA and caliber and so on, but it's still an interpretation in the end, although one that's simple enough so the vast majority of people will agree with you.

Secondly, you're confusing elements which obviously can't be gauged with those which can, even if it means only getting at equivalencies. Gauging midichlorians is not a thing you can do. But gauging the amount of damage done to something by TK is something you can, because you know that it looks like it was made with something akin to a given pressure per cm², or things of that vein.
Even more directly, judding the amount of damage caused by a chemical missile, even in Star Wars, is relatively damn easy, and can be calced, and there shouldn't be any reason why the calc wouldn't be valid, fireballs and sounds in space nonwithstanding (since they're often ignored by fans anyway, as they concentrate on the armour's and shields' more "conceptual" behaviour).

That, regardless of going with visuals or dialogue first.

at what point is swst going to realize that ADMIRAL BREETAI NEVER EVEN ACCEPTED THE DEBATE CHALLENGE. he said from post one that he thought it was ridiculous and he had no interest in debating swst. he OF COURSE has a valid point in saying that real world mathematics can't be used to calculate correct figures for anything in a FANTASY UNIVERSE in which EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS ONSCREEN IS SPECIFICALLY INTENDED TO LOOK AWESOME, NOT BE REALISTIC.

Huh, you have the soft debating, which seems to be your cup of tea, and the hardcore one, which you may find ludicrous.
Both are valid here, but there's clearly a bias in favour of the hardcore way, and it's asked from SFJN members to acknowledge and accept this.

So for Breetai, if he wants to reject debating because he thinks the principle of how those numbers are obtained is silly, and he's going to ignore them on such grounds, then fine, but then he doesn't need to spend like four pages arguing that way.
But if Breetai starts playing the game by saying the calcs are invalid, based on the very rules which are accepted as to how make proper calculations (premises, observations, interpretations as math, etc.), then he cannot dismiss calcs and claim them silly or some such without actually proving why they're inaccurate, with the same rules the oponent actually used to make said calcs.

If you want to play a game, you play with the same rules, and it seems that Breetai is jumping from one set of rules to another, at times accepting the debate with SWST on the same grounds, and the next post denying this very debate.

So it depends on what Breetai is really doing, and from the looks of this post, he has been accepting the rules SWST used to make the calcs at some point. He wasn't stuck at saying it didn't make sense doing such calcs, he was saying they were biased (as in based on faulty observations, perhaps even dishonest), and this is what SWST attacked him on: in what way were they supposedly biased?

Post such as this one only add to the confusion, because there he is saying that he rejects calculations because they're a level of interpretation, i.e. fan made, which is silly.
He's expecting the movie to have a character say "sir, we fired a 20 kilotons torpedo" or something of that vein, and will not accept a calculation based on what said torpedo has generated in terms of fireballs or craterization.

So from the looks of it, Breetai needs to stop switching debating standards, and either step out of this thread, or actually engage in proper debating by using the same standards SWST used.
I can tell that this kind of game would really try my patience as well.
And damn, it actually sucks having to explain all that.

Mind you, I didn't read SWST's post, I largely skimmed this thread thus far. I can't tell what's the problem with SWST atm.

the fact that that point invalidates the entire purpose of the website, and furthermore, the entire debate itself, doesn't make the point less correct. star trek is less guilty of this, as from everything i've read on the making of the series and whatnot says that science was a major issue to the people behind the scenes - not always a 'is this possible' but at the very least a 'this will probably be possible in the future' behind virtually every decision.
star wars has magic and virgin births and laser swords and ships where the hull can be welded with a common welding torch and copper wire running everywhere. it's just supposed to be cool. nothing in it makes the slightest sense.

Star Trek is choke full of such silly things as well you know.

[Admiral Breetai]

[

Nothing has any basis in canon. When you see someone shoot bullets at some tank, and see bullets ricochet while making sparks with a loud metallic noise, you make an interpretation that since the bullets are made of metal, and the plate they were shot at is also made of metal, and the bullets failed to get through said plate, then the rifle couldn't dent the tank's metal plate. Then, based on the looks of the gun and the looks of the tank, you make all sorts of extrapolations on the technological abilities of both sides.
You don't need a calc because it's straight forward enough, although you could make one if you really wanted to talk about RHA and caliber and so on, but it's still an interpretation in the end, although one that's simple enough so the vast majority of people will agree with you.

right but if you make a calc on the density of the metal and the frailty of the bullets based partially on canon and partially on your own speculation then demand some one analyze and refute that

firstly your not actually following canon because part of your calcs is speculation whether its realistic or other wise..its not based off the tank scene..

secondly your demanding your views be given the same emphasis as whats you where discussing

Secondly, you're confusing elements which obviously can't be gauged with those which can, even if it means only getting at equivalencies. Gauging midichlorians is not a thing you can do. But gauging the amount of damage done to something by TK is something you can, because you know that it looks like it was made with something akin to a given pressure per cm², or things of that vein.

really I can accurately gauge magical germ energy fields telekenetic impact on futuristic metals made of properties I have no clue about?

Even more directly, judding the amount of damage caused by a chemical missile, even in Star Wars, is relatively damn easy, and can be calced, and there shouldn't be any reason why the calc wouldn't be valid, fireballs and sounds in space nonwithstanding (since they're often ignored by fans anyway, as they concentrate on the armour's and shields' more "conceptual" behaviour).

what chemicals are they using what metals are they impacting? what's the make up of these metals? do we know if it's based on anything even remotely comparable to RL tech or minerals?

Huh, you have the soft debating, which seems to be your cup of tea, and the hardcore one, which you may find ludicrous.
Both are valid here, but there's clearly a bias in favour of the hardcore way, and it's asked from SFJN members to acknowledge and accept this.

I'm asking this for my own personal clarification because we seem to have two separate definitions on "hardcore" and "softcore"

by hard you mean a strict emphasis on more scientific analytical stuff? or do you mean more aggressive style debating?

So for Breetai, if he wants to reject debating because he thinks the principle of how those numbers are obtained is silly,

nowhere am I rejecting debating the two aren't one in the same

If you want to play a game, you play with the same rules, and it seems that Breetai is jumping from one set of rules to another, at times accepting the debate with SWST on the same grounds, and the next post denying this very debate.

I actually avoided rejecting Calcs on the merit of their unrealistic nature for as long as humanly possible because I feared an SDN/SB style reprisal from the mods..if I did when I saw that this wouldn't happen my account wasn't going to be banned or erased I went with what I was originally thinking and seemed to have sparked some controversy here

Post such as this one only add to the confusion, because there he is saying that he rejects calculations because they're a level of interpretation, i.e. fan made, which is silly.
He's expecting the movie to have a character say "sir, we fired a 20 kilotons torpedo" or something of that vein, and will not accept a calculation based on what said torpedo has generated in terms of fireballs or craterization.

I don't expect an adventure movie to be so clear or thorough at all I do expect some one to have some basis in canon to back up they're numbers especially when they are far too high end for whats actually shown

So from the looks of it, Breetai needs to stop switching debating standards, and either step out of this thread, or actually engage in proper debating by using the same standards SWST used.

that's not proper debating at all

I can tell that this kind of game would really try my patience as well.
And damn, it actually sucks having to explain all that.

considering it was a bait thread I actually didn't accept any formal challenge what so ever..and every single post I made was more pointing out his errors and misconduct then anything else and then filling up text space so as not to be guilty of some..infractionable offense

Mind you, I didn't read SWST's post, I largely skimmed this thread thus far. I can't tell what's the problem with SWST atm.

should probably give both sides a fair shake then

Star Trek is choke full of such silly things as well you know.

hehe although for some reason warp drive seems "theoretically" possible

[Mr. Oragahn]

Honestly, I'm not going to argue on anything more beyond what I said. My opinion is quite well rounded on that topic and I can't count the hundreds of different flavours of "it's just a movie you clot!" I had to go through. I don't think there's anything to add there, because it's rather simple and, to say the least, good enough. If you want to reply to SWST about his calcs, either say you dismiss them as you don't like calcing movie events, or show how his maths is wrong or his premises suck and thus led him to an erroneous conclusion.
Mmm... yay?

[Admiral Breetai]

you want consistency alright then