A word on Imperial and UFP ship production...

[Mith]

I wanted to address this:

Leo1:

Indeed.

Re: ship numbers - if you take the TMs as being canon, the implications for shipyard construction rates aren't great. It took Utopia Planitia thirteen years to build 3 Galaxy-class Starships according to the TM. Compared to six months for Kuat Drive Yards or Fondor to churn out an ISD. It also claims that Utopia Planitia has 12 slips. KDY has thousands.

(Well, its obvious KDY alone could outproduce the entire UFP anyway, but this is funny)

Alright, first off. The Galaxy class ships were all prototypes, built side by side. Many of those "thirteen years" was spent in design and development stages:

2343
Galaxy Class Project officially approved. Design centers
begin drawing upon previous starships once general specifications
are transmitted. Vehicle frame, engine systems,
computer cores, and hull receive high priority.

2344
ASDB begins early definition work on Galaxy class mission
simulators programmed with basic vessel characteristics.
Detail design work continues.

2345
based on first cut of frame designs. Field narrows from forty
to fifteen. Computer core and software architecture passes
Design Review 0.

2346
Testing of hull materials proceeds; final design must include
conduits for structural integrity field (SIF), inertial damping
field (IDF), and deflector shield grid. Warp and impulse systems
pass Design Review 0; materials difficulties foreseen in
warp coils. Impulse system design frozen. Computer design
passes Reviews 1 and 2. Sensor systems evolving. Habitation
and workspace module design frozen; fabrication begins.
Redesign of transporter biofilter is requested. Phaser emitter
undergoes redesign; photon torpedo upgrade proceeds with
standard launcher and casings. Main deflector design frozen.

2347
Warp engine systems design tentatively frozen; anticipating
nacelle design frozen later in the year. Impulse design
undergoes tweaking. Computer cores pass Reviews 3 and 4.
Transporter biofilter design frozen; system fabrication begins.
Phaser emitter redesign passes Review 0. Main deflector
power supply redesigned to accommodate science instruments.

2348
Mass and volume studies proceed for all internal systems, Vehicle frame design and docking latch system pass Review 0. Final selection of frame alloys; materials ordered. Warp engine and nacelle designs frozen; nacelle passes Reviews 0 and 1. Warp engine components begin test fabrication. Impulse engine components, main computers, and transporter begin fabrication. Communications system and tractor beam design frozen; fabrication deferred for power simulations. Phaser emitter third redesign passes Review 0; Reviews 1 and 2 skipped as fabrication begins. Main deflector power redesigned; fabrication begins.


2349
Frame and docking system pass Review 1; structural latches
begin fabrication. Hull skin design frozen; some areas remain
under development. Warp engine materials failures slow
fabrication. Nacelles pass Review 2; fabrication begins late
in the year. Tractor beam system underconstruction. Photon
torpedo launcher design frozen. Sensor pallets under construction.
All auxiliary spacecraft under development.

2350
First frame members gamma-welded in Utopia Planitia ceremony.
Warp nacelle shells under construction; coils remain
in test phase. Impulse components test-fit within frame at
midyear. Computer core framing underway. Habitat modules
test-fit. Phasers and photon torpedo assemblies under construction.

2351
Frame construction and major hardware installations continue
simultaneously. Hull layers begin attachment. Warp
engine core 65% complete; nacelles pass Review 3 with
assumptions of successful fixes to coil materials problems.
Major impulse engine installation complete. Computer cores
50% complete off-site. First layers of habitat modules installed.
Transporter installation deferred in labor rescheduling.
Tractor beam emitters modified to accommodate hull skin
changes. Phaser bank installation proceeds. All other power
and consumables conduits continue installation.

2352
Warp engine core completed; materials difficulties eliminated.
Warp field coil manufacture delayed by furnace facility complications;
other system assemblies completed. Preparations
made for impulse run-up tests. Main computer cores 80%
complete; nonflight mock-ups complete fit checks. Habitat
and connecting passages 55% installed. Transporter systems
minus hull emitters begin installation. Phaser bank
installation complete; electro plasma power supply to phasers
deferred until warp engine power levels verified. Photon
torpedo magnetic launcher power supplies reworked. Temporary
gravity generators installed; network active only where
necessary.

2353
Framing and hull skin construction continues. Docking system
latches and pass-through fit checks continue. Deuterium
reactant tanks and antimatter pod assemblies arrive from offsite
for integration. Warp coil fixes effected; production of
matched coil sets continues. Impulse engine system run-up
tests performed; fusion chambers powered singly and in
combinations. Reaction control system (RCS) thruster assemblies
installed. Two computer cores completed; one each
installed in Saucer Module and Battle Section. Third core
completion slowed by isolinear chip availability problems.
Phaser power flow regulators and conduits installed; predicted
warp core power tap verified as adequate. Main
deflector piggyback instrument power supply work complete.

2354
Some hull skin sections show unacceptable welds; 2% reworked
to fix problem. Imbedded defensive shield grid not
affected. Warp engine core begins low-power tests; reaches
Warp 2 equivalent energy. Nacelles still awaiting coil delivery.
Impulse tests continue; RCS thruster software problem fixed.
Third computer core delayed for additional two years; affects
all downstream starships. Habitat layers 70% complete.
Shuttlecraft, work pods, and lifeboats arrive for integration
tests. Photon torpedo loader thermal expansion anomaly
fixed.

2355
Final outerframing members completed; minordesign change
in forward dorsal requires added longitudinal members. Warp
engine core tests continue. Impulse engine system complete.
Permanent gravity generator network complete. Habitat
modules and storage volumes complete. Transporter and
subspace comm system antennae modified; made compatible
with deflector shield grid emissions. Structural integrity
field (SIF) runs at low power; works out starship's framing
"kinks." Main deflector field focus test successful after startup
failure repaired. Starboard pylon phaser bank swapped
with one from USS Yamato; better operational fit for each.
Photon torpedo loader thermal problem returns; new fix is
final. Sensor pallets 50% installed; minimum for flight.

2356
Starship skin 95% complete. Warp engine power up tests to
Warp 8 equivalent. Warp coils delivered and installed. Impulse
fusion generators perform full power nonpropulsive
tests. Third computer core delivered and installed; additionalprogramming and tests continue. First habitat module swapout by transporter successful. Transporter tests complete. Final SIF and inertial damping field hookups complete. Comm system 90% complete. Impulse power to phasers certified. 30% of lifeboats delivered and docked. USS Galaxy is launched from orbital dock on maneuvering thrusters.

2357
Hull integrity complete; all SIF and IDF systems operational.
Warp nacelles buttoned up and certified for flight. Final
impulse system adjustments underway. Computer core
subspace field shielding problem arises on Enterprise only;
threatened one-third of power systems on starship, traced to
conflicting power-up procedures, then fixed. Comm system
complete after minor rerouting to avoid computer problem.
Photon torpedo system remote firing successful. Defensive
shields final hookup complete. Sensor pallets certified. USS
Galaxy is commissioned; declared deep-spaceworthy and
warp-capable; moves to outer solar system.

2358
Tests continue on total warp and impulse propulsion systems.
All other internal spacecraft systems powered up; crosssystem
tests continue. New flight software installed in all
three computer cores. Ejectable bridge module docked.
Minimum flight test program crew completes preliminary
training aboard ship. Captain's yacht test article docked,
nonflightversion. USS Enterpriser launched; leaves dock on
maneuvering thrusters.

2359
Flight test crew continues developmental shakedown trials in
Mars space. USS Enterprise computers receive continuous
performance updates from USS Ga/axyorbiting Pluto. Tasks
include extensive sensor operations, simulated emergency
conditions, simulated combat exercises, and power system
stress analysis. Warp field coils receive first power, nonpropulsive,
Warp 1 equivalent. Power conditioning of warp coils
continues up through Warp 8 equivalent. Performance analysis
continues on all vehicle components. Main computers
developing "systems awareness," learning and recording
how ship behaves as a total entity. USS Enterprise declared
deep-spaceworthy and warp-capable. Yellow warp-stress
visibility hull coatings applied.

2360-2363
USS Enterprise achieves warp flight in outer solar system.
Initial vibration difficulties transitioning to higher warp factors
smoothed out by computer adjustments to warp geometry
control software. Skin reinforcements and frame stiffening
performed during dock layovers. Final hull coatings and
markings applied. Live-fire phaser and photon torpedo exercises
test crew and systems. Low-level defensive shield
power deficiencies appear; enhanced shield generators
designs put into work. All lifeboats and auxiliary spacecraft
docked, including flight-qualified captain's yacht. Operational
bridge module docked.

4 OCTOBER 2363
The USS Enterprise is officially commissioned in a ceremony
at the Utopia Pianitia Fleet Yards. The USS Galaxy and USS
Yamato send congratulatory messages via subspace radio.

The entire process to completely work out the ship classes and bugs and so forth for three ships who were being built at the same time is 13 years. The actual real construction time is seven years, one or two more if you include this to be when the materials are ordered.

Now, we don't know (to my knowledge), just how long it took to get that first ISD out of the gates. But we can compare certain industrial capabilities for both sides by looking at their smaller productions.

I took the Delta Flyer, which according to Paris, Voyager could build in 1 week with people working around the clock. Then, using the D20 Star Wars: Starships of the Galaxy, I determined what a ship of near-equal size and firepower level would be (for its setting).

Now, the mechanics for the ship productions would allow for ISD IIs to be built in 6.6 months and SSDs in 1.7 years. In the book, for every construction point you have for your ship, it takes a week. However, certain facilities are faster and better equipped and so can reduce that time. Facilities also have slips that they split the production. So say, an ISD that would take 640 weeks for one slip only takes about 53.3 weeks with 12. However, ships are limited to the maximum amount of slips for their size. Here's the production speed for a ship between 10.1 to 20 meters in size (ie, the Delta Flyer is 15 meters long). Due to the ship size, we automatically start with one construction point.

Delta Flyer Knockoff
Producer: Kuat Yards (.5 multipler)
Ship size: 15 meters (Tiny, max slips; 2)

Automation (+9 construction points)
Smaller ships such as fighters and such require automation so the ship can run itself without people having to constantly adjust it. Therefore, the smaller the ship, the more you have to take into account for automation. Since the DF typically typically has around 4-5 people working it and could hold up to more, I went with the +9 choice option, which requires at least five people to work.

Life Support (+2 construction points)
Pretty straightforward. You need life support to live.

Cargo (+3 construction points)
I'm pretty sure the DF could carry up to 500 kilograms and probably more, so I went with that.

Consumables (+2 Construction Points)
Again, DF is supposed to be short range, and while it can obviously run much farther than three days on consumables, I didn't want to buff up the points too much, especially since I'm guessing on the cargo bit. I think it evens out for the most part.

x6 Hyperdrive (+1 Construction Point)
Cheapest hyperdrive they had.

Ion Engines (+4 construction points)
To be honest, the Delta Flyer is probably closer ot an 8-12 point package option, but I just went with this to try and grant a bit more of an advantage to the SW side. Because this alone is 4x longer than the entire construction time of the Delta Flyer itself...

Shields (+5 construction points)
The DF has seen to be exchanging shots with large capital ships. It therefore has to have some impressive shielding cpabilities. That's not even mentioning the super-duper borg shield thing Tuvok installed.

Armor (+5 construction points)
The Delta Flyer was again, supposed to be pretty durable.

Weapon Suite for 19-32 points (+9 construction points)
This includes a Heavy blaster cannons, x2 proton torpedo tubes, and a tractor beam.

Total Raw Points: 41 Construction points
Total Raw Construction Time: 287/365.25 days a year
Total Raw Construction Time (x2 slips): 143.5/365.25 days a year

Using the Deduction values for slips and Kuat's expertise:

Reduced Value: 20.5 construction points
Total Construction Time (x1 slip): 143.5/365.25 days a year (20.5 weeks)
Total Construction Time (x2 slips): 71.75/365.25 days a year (10.25 weeks)

Compare this to Voyager, which was surely not something like the UFP's shipyards in terms of efficiency (or at least, I would think). Even using the best construction team in Star Wars, a ship stuck 75 years away from their home base is still 10x faster in production capabilities than they are.

The Empire's only advantage in terms of production capabilites comes from its immense size. Pound for pound, the UFP is over ten times better.

EDIT:

For those of you paying attention, that would mean that something roughly the size of a runabout can be produced in a week's time with round-the-clock work. A runabout could easily be produced within a single month. And Leo1 should be careful to note that the slips for the UFP seem to be where the ship is finished, not where all the heavy assembly is put together, since we clearly see that's something that Starfleet does dirtside.

[Mike DiCenso]

One of the big problems that I see with using the TNG TM's timeline for the design and construction of the Galaxy class starships is that it is in many ways contradicted by what information we have been given in several episodes, most notably "Booby Trap" [TNG, season 3] and "The Pegasus" [TNG, season 7].

What we know is that the major design work for the GCS was being done just a few years prior to the launch of the ship in 2363 as the Pegasus was a ship carrying systems prototypes and testing them, and Dr. Leah Brahams was busy still at Drafting Room Five at Utopia Planitia, so the actual construction of the GCS would have had to reflect that, no matter what the actual length of the project design work was. We also know from VOY's "Relativity", that there is the USS Challenger NCC-71099. Based on the registry, the low number would indicate that the Challenger was built in the same time period as the Galaxy (NCC 70637), Yamato (NCC 718071), and Enterprise. In fact, Challenger was likely the second ship built in the class, based on that, and the TNG TM information is dead wrong in stating the Yamato was the second one to be built in the series.

So up to four GCS were built between 2358 and 2363. This construction rate fits in well with the fact that we have seen up to two-dozen of the nearly identical Nebula class starships throughout the TNG-era.
-Mike

[Mith]

One of the big problems that I see with using the TNG TM's timeline for the design and construction of the Galaxy class starships is that it is in many ways contradicted by what information we have been given in several episodes, most notably "Booby Trap" [TNG, season 3] and "The Pegasus" [TNG, season 7].

What we know is that the major design work for the GCS was being done just a few years prior to the launch of the ship in 2363 as the Pegasus was a ship carrying systems prototypes and testing them, and Dr. Leah Brahams was busy still at Drafting Room Five at Utopia Planitia, so the actual construction of the GCS would have had to reflect that, no matter what the actual length of the project design work was. We also know from VOY's "Relativity", that there is the USS Challenger NCC-71099. Based on the registry, the low number would indicate that the Challenger was built in the same time period as the Galaxy (NCC 70637), Yamato (NCC 718071), and Enterprise. In fact, Challenger was likely the second ship built in the class, based on that, and the TNG TM information is dead wrong in stating the Yamato was the second one to be built in the series.

So up to four GCS were built between 2358 and 2363. This construction rate fits in well with the fact that we have seen up to two-dozen of the nearly identical Nebula class starships throughout the TNG-era.
-Mike

There are multiple contradictions between the TM and the show as to the Enterprise's construction. It's also a really, really bad way to judge production capabilities if said ship is the largest, most complicated piece of hardware you have.

Rather than just a larger platform with guns. >>

[Mike DiCenso]

We do know according to TNG's "Eye of the Beholder", that the E-D's construction took at least one year since the ship was launched in 2363 (as per "All Good Things..."), but the murder of Marla E. Finn and William Hodges by Walter Pierce, who were all working on the ship at Utopia Planitia, occured around 2362. But because we are constrained by the information from "Booby Trap" and "The Pegasus", the construction start of the E-D is not likely before 2358. Thus 5-6 years tops for a single early GCS' construction timeframe, which is considerably less than the 10 year construction time the TNG TM gives us. Not too mention the launch and construction timelines do not match up at all. The E-D in the proper canon is under construction when the TM says it was out and about being test flown in the solar system, and is said in the TM to have been launched years earlier than it is said to be in the canon episodes.
-Mike

[Lucky]

One of the big problems that I see with using the TNG TM's timeline for the design and construction of the Galaxy class starships is that it is in many ways contradicted by what information we have been given in several episodes, most notably "Booby Trap" [TNG, season 3] and "The Pegasus" [TNG, season 7].

What we know is that the major design work for the GCS was being done just a few years prior to the launch of the ship in 2363 as the Pegasus was a ship carrying systems prototypes and testing them, and Dr. Leah Brahams was busy still at Drafting Room Five at Utopia Planitia, so the actual construction of the GCS would have had to reflect that, no matter what the actual length of the project design work was. We also know from VOY's "Relativity", that there is the USS Challenger NCC-71099. Based on the registry, the low number would indicate that the Challenger was built in the same time period as the Galaxy (NCC 70637), Yamato (NCC 718071), and Enterprise. In fact, Challenger was likely the second ship built in the class, based on that, and the TNG TM information is dead wrong in stating the Yamato was the second one to be built in the series.

So up to four GCS were built between 2358 and 2363. This construction rate fits in well with the fact that we have seen up to two-dozen of the nearly identical Nebula class starships throughout the TNG-era.
-Mike

There are multiple contradictions between the TM and the show as to the Enterprise's construction. It's also a really, really bad way to judge production capabilities if said ship is the largest, most complicated piece of hardware you have.

Rather than just a larger platform with guns. >>

I think this quote from the Tech Manual can't be posted enough.

StarTrek The Next Generation Technical Manual

Authors' Introduction Page: VII
An important word of caution: All Starfleet personnel are hereby advised that any previous technical documentation in your possession may be suspect because of an ongoing Starfleet program of disinformation intended to confound and confuse the intelligence assets of potential forces. Such documents should therefore be verified with Federation archives, and this manual for authenticity.

[Mr. Oragahn]

OK.

TM - not canon.

D20 mecahnics - craptastic way to go at it. We already went through that, me and JMS, and it's been very clear that it's best used as a tool to give an idea of what goes on. There are many reasons as to why numerically it doesn't tick right.
Not to say that Leo1 was using those same rules in a very erroneous way.

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 42&start=0

[Mith]

D20 mecahnics - craptastic way to go at it. We already went through that, me and JMS, and it's been very clear that it's best used as a tool to give an idea of what goes on. There are many reasons as to why numerically it doesn't tick right.
Not to say that Leo1 was using those same rules in a very erroneous way.

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 42&start=0

Of course he is. Because he's both an idiot and a dishonest twat.

A D20 economy just doesn't work. In all honesty, I don't even know why the people at Wizards wasted their fucking time putting those charts together. Think about it; under no condition would any DM allow for someone to build an ISD-type ship. It's simply absurd. Fighters, transports, freighters, and maybe a small destroyer would be the limits.

And as you and JMS pointed out, the sheer logistics of it is fucked up the whazoo. The Empire isn't some sort of fucking video game where shit magically appears and people just shit out one ISD after the other.

KDY probably doesn't even keep all of its slips full. Hell, I bet weeks could go by without one of them being used. That's not even including mantaining and inspecting or refitting said slips.

Chances are, only 75% of the slips are going to be active and not all of them will be producing ISDs. At most, you have maybe 1,400 slips or so dedicated to the construction of an ISD. About three other thousand are going to be occupied with numerous other projects ranging from warships to small scouts ships or even luxary craft.

[Praeothmin]

dishonest twat.

Mith, this is not accepted here.
Use less insulting terms, or don't talk about Leo1, period.
If you want to call him dishonest, and point out where he was dishonest, then go ahead, as that is not an insult, but a fact.
"Twat" is just an insult, purely and simply, and is not accepted.
Thanks.