Star wars vs star trek......what the hell

[Mr. Oragahn]

I don't debate tattle-tales.

There would have nothing to report if you had not decided to behave like a troll to begin with.
I won't tire of reporting your flame-baiting posts.
It would be simpler for you to provide the requested evidence.

[KirkSkyWalker]

That's what all tattlers say.

[Praeothmin]

Point number one:
KirkSkywalker, if you cannot respond in a mature tone, don't respond at all.

Mr. Oragahn simply requests you provide proof of all your arguments, which you fail again and again to do.
If your arguments were so sound, it would be quite easy for you to provide the proof, and if you understood your own theories yourself, it would be easy for you to "dumb things down" for the people who didn't seem to understand.
I have no problem doing it with Optics when dealing with customers who know nothing of that field, so you should not have any problems doing it for us "dumb people"...

Now, for the fun part:

Nice opinion.

Which, unlike you, I've backed up many times with links to the related material, and clear and concise explanations on how everything fits nicely, while you, as usual, have dodged the points once it became clear your argument could not stand on its own...

That's like proving that a Sherman Tank can protect against arrows, just because they are proven to have harmed covered-wagons. Sorry, it's just too silly to waste time on-- particularly since you'll just quibble over the type, canonical references, and other drivel.

In order for this analogy to work, you'd actually have to prove that ST ships armor and SW ship armor can be compared to a Sherman Tank, and a covered wagon, respectively.

Then, you'd again have to provide proof that, since Ion storms in both universes do affect and damage ships (which I've proven more than once), and since Ion weapons can damage SW ships (proven in the EU and ESB), there is no reason to assume they would damage a ST ship...
Your opinion on the subject being that Ion cannons could not damage ST ships, which you have still failed to prove...

And finally, where is it said that Stormtrooper armor is akin to an ISD armor?
And ST Redshirts are also taken out by arrows, as is Data, so I guess in your argument methodology, this proves Ion cannons can harm ST ships?

[KirkSkyWalker]

Again, you haven't provided a single example of a UFP starship being damaged by an ion-storm; nor have you provded any evidence of an ion-canon being anywhere near as powerful.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Okay, lets see if we can caculate this....um.....i dunno how much energy a ion storm puts out, but if an ion bolt puts out 150 w or whatever....lets say that a ion storm puts out...er.....20 w per foot while striking and lets say it strikes the same area of 10 feet every...um.....10 seconds. Unless its a constant effect so i'll do both caculations.

So a starship passes through the ion storm which is...er....2000 feet across (don't need to do wide cuase their not gonna run around the whole thing. so thats 2000 feet their going through. So 2000 divided by 10 (2000 feet divided by 10 feet for the areas it strikes) is 200. So thats 200 strikes their getting. 200 times 20 w is 4000 w's of power. So going across this area they in total are fighting 4000 w of power. If the ion strikes a smaller area faster then it gets bigger.

If a constant effect though then their taking alot more. 2000 times 20 equals 40 000. So their taking 40 000 w of power.

Of course i am not aiding speed to the equation so i suppose that messes it up. Um.......how fast would they be going and are any of my numbers wrong? The size of said ion storm, energy, or the amount of strikes per foot?

Erm... I don't get the figures you use (2000, 10, 40, etc.), and I think you may want to use joules when talking about the total energy dealt with, unless you feel joyful enough to talk in watt-minutes or something...

[Mr. Oragahn]

Again, you haven't provided a single example of a UFP starship being damaged by an ion-storm; nor have you provded any evidence of an ion-canon being anywhere near as powerful.

Are you asking for Praeothmin to provide quotations from episode transcripts?
Memory Alpha's page on ion storms and other ion phenomena is pretty straightforward.

I'm still waiting for your evidence about what I requested here by the way.

Besides, about planetary turbolasers; the example I gave is not even one of the most powerful weapon types. The one I gave already was a powerful PTL, KDY's w-165 but its advantage essentially was in its superior range and the fact that it was shielded with dozens of deflector shield projectors. One of such pieces can easily take on a SD.
But there are other PTLs, such as the Loronar model, which consume up to four times more energy than the KDY model, can completely obliterate a Star Destroyer (in the D6 game, it has a damage of 15D, which is simply huge as it bests the 9D of damage for both types of weapons on a torpedo sphere, and effectively overwhelms an ISD-I's 7D of hull and 3D of shields).

[KirkSkyWalker]

Again, you haven't provided a single example of a UFP starship being damaged by an ion-storm; nor have you provded any evidence of an ion-canon being anywhere near as powerful.

Are you asking for Praeothmin to provide quotations from episode transcripts?
Memory Alpha's page on ion storms and other ion phenomena is pretty straightforward.

I'm still waiting for your evidence about what I requested here by the way.

Besides, about planetary turbolasers; the example I gave is not even one of the most powerful weapon types. The one I gave already was a powerful PTL, KDY's w-165 but its advantage essentially was in its superior range and the fact that it was shielded with dozens of deflector shield projectors. One of such pieces can easily take on a SD.
But there are other PTLs, such as the Loronar model, which consume up to four times more energy than the KDY model, can completely obliterate a Star Destroyer (in the D6 game, it has a damage of 15D, which is simply huge as it bests the 9D of damage for both types of weapons on a torpedo sphere, and effectively overwhelms an ISD-I's 7D of hull and 3D of shields).

There's a few problems with that, i.e. the exact nature of the weapon, energy-yield, and game-canonicity-- as well as the STL nature against a FTL ship.

Likewise, we still don't have an example of a GCS or anything like it being damaged by an ion-storm, OR any proof that an ion-canon packs the same punch-- that leaves you 0-5.

[Praeothmin]

Again, you haven't provided a single example of a UFP starship being damaged by an ion-storm

In "Once upon a time", in VOY, the Delta Flyer, capable of sustaining many minutes of weapons fire from Voyager equivalent ships, was damaged in an Ion Storm, losing thrusters and crashing as a result.
When Voyager is in a storm,

the outer bands of the storm begin to lash them, causing their deflector shield strength to begin to drop

.
So if the edge of the storm is sufficient to do that, being in the storm will have worse effects.
While we do not know the actual strength of an Intrepid-class vessel compared to a Galaxy, we do know they are no weaklings, being capable to battling the Borg just as well as the Galaxy did in TNG.
If the Intrepid is damaged by an Ion Storm, so should the Galaxy be.
And since YOU stated that an Ion storm could not damage ST ships, you should provide proof it cannot.
I provided canon, in show evidence it does indeed, while, again, you did not.

Ion Storms in SW also pose a threat to ships, and the Ion Cannon in TESB was able to disable an ISD, there is no reason it could not damage or at least partly disable a ST ship.
Again, I provided evidence that in both universes, Ion Storms were pretty much the same, and both damage ships, while, sadly, you provided nothing...

OR any proof that an ion-canon packs the same punch

Nor do we have any evidence that it doesn't...
Both universes have Ion Storms, and in both universes they behave the same way, and are threats to Capital ships, and in SW the Ion Cannon can disable a Capital ship.
The logic is easy to follow...
While I do agree the exact extent of the Ion Cannon's effects are difficult to predict on ST ships, there's absolutely no reason to believe ST ships are immune to Ion Cannons...

[KirkSkyWalker]

Nor do we have any evidence that it doesn't...

Proving a negative. You're making the comparison, you prove it.
Likewise, it's ludicrous to compare a little ion-burst with traveling through a level 8 ion-storm, which hit Voyager at 33,000 kph; again you're comparing squirt-guns and tsunami.

Finally, STL ion-canons won't harm FTL ships; and yes, starships can fire while at warp, no matter how many times you repeat otherwise.

[User1442]

Okay, lets see if we can caculate this....um.....i dunno how much energy a ion storm puts out, but if an ion bolt puts out 150 w or whatever....lets say that a ion storm puts out...er.....20 w per foot while striking and lets say it strikes the same area of 10 feet every...um.....10 seconds. Unless its a constant effect so i'll do both caculations.

So a starship passes through the ion storm which is...er....2000 feet across (don't need to do wide cuase their not gonna run around the whole thing. so thats 2000 feet their going through. So 2000 divided by 10 (2000 feet divided by 10 feet for the areas it strikes) is 200. So thats 200 strikes their getting. 200 times 20 w is 4000 w's of power. So going across this area they in total are fighting 4000 w of power. If the ion strikes a smaller area faster then it gets bigger.

If a constant effect though then their taking alot more. 2000 times 20 equals 40 000. So their taking 40 000 w of power.

Of course i am not aiding speed to the equation so i suppose that messes it up. Um.......how fast would they be going and are any of my numbers wrong? The size of said ion storm, energy, or the amount of strikes per foot?

Erm... I don't get the figures you use (2000, 10, 40, etc.), and I think you may want to use joules when talking about the total energy dealt with, unless you feel joyful enough to talk in watt-minutes or something...

I used those numbers because im not sure how much energy it would actually say. And I didn't realise that it was joules not watts. Im no math whiz, but the point im trying to make is why don't you people try to make some mathematical calculations. Figure out how much energy an ion storm would create and compare it to the ion cannon.

[Mike DiCenso]

Just how would you propose going about doing that since we have no way to directly measure this fictional phenomena? Unlike the neutronic wavefront storm of VOY's "Fair Haven", we have no statements for even the energy gradient of the ion storms, much less anything else about them, except for second hand descriptions. All we know is that they are really nasty and can damage starships. So any calculations would be made using almost completely made up assumptions with little observational data to back them up.
-Mike

[User1442]

Well, im no super geek so i don't know for sure, but we can make a comparison of how much damage their sheilds can take from enemy weapons. Between how much damage their shields can take and how fast the ion storms took to disable their weapons, we can estimate the power of a ion storm.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Just how would you propose going about doing that since we have no way to directly measure this fictional phenomena? Unlike the neutronic wavefront storm of VOY's "Fair Haven", we have no statements for even the energy gradient of the ion storms, much less anything else about them, except for second hand descriptions. All we know is that they are really nasty and can damage starships. So any calculations would be made using almost completely made up assumptions with little observational data to back them up.
-Mike

Which is why they can't compare an ion-canon to an ion-storm, i.e. there's no quantitative evidence, or even qualitative-- while likewise it ignores starship-speed entirely. In TESB, the Hoth-cannon visibly fires STL, and simply knocks out the ISD electrical systems. This would be some trick against an ST starship, which has FTL sensors, FTL deflector-beams and shields, FTL drive, and no electrical systems.
And we're not even talking about shields, if the main deflector-dish can sweep it out of the way easily within 300,000 km, and probably even further.

In contrast, an ion-storm is quite a bit bigger than that puny little cannon-ball of ions.

[User1442]

Just how would you propose going about doing that since we have no way to directly measure this fictional phenomena? Unlike the neutronic wavefront storm of VOY's "Fair Haven", we have no statements for even the energy gradient of the ion storms, much less anything else about them, except for second hand descriptions. All we know is that they are really nasty and can damage starships. So any calculations would be made using almost completely made up assumptions with little observational data to back them up.
-Mike

Which is why they can't compare an ion-canon to an ion-storm, i.e. there's no quantitative evidence, or even qualitative-- while likewise it ignores starship-speed entirely. In TESB, the Hoth-cannon visibly fires STL, and simply knocks out the ISD electrical systems. This would be some trick against an ST starship, which has FTL sensors, FTL deflector-beams and shields, FTL drive, and no electrical systems.
And we're not even talking about shields, if the main deflector-dish can sweep it out of the way easily within 300,000 km, and probably even further.

In contrast, an ion-storm is quite a bit bigger than that puny little cannon-ball of ions.

See?! This is exactly what this very post is about! I mean for god sakes, is it impossible for you to even consider the idea that maybe, just maybe, the ion cannon might affect a st ship?! And with them the idea that maybe an ion bolt would not affect a ST ship?! I mean maybe im an idiot for saying this on this kind of site, but on any other real debate site i've been on, debate tactics like this would get you thrown out.

[The Dude]

I think the most generous we can be is that we simply don't know, not enough info.

So we may as well grant that an ion cannon would work on ST ships. Otherwise, why even bother to pit them against each other?