The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

[Mr. Oragahn]

The problem for you is that if you had any evidence of this you'd have presented it by now.
All we need is how Picard was treated after that. He never lost respected from other admirals, he never lost support from Starfleet either.
So it's pretty clear that the way things work in the UFP is not the same as you think it does.

And therein lies the problem, i.e. Picard's a left-wing Marty Stu who's always right.[/quote]

It's not a problem. It's the way it works. Their military has some loose electrons, but it wants and tries to obey higher standards.
If Starfleet largely was in favor of the technology, they would have never let just one ship carry all the advances and discoveries to the point where its loss would bring an end to the secret project in its entirety. Presmman's allies would have been working on another prototype and by the time that tech was ready to get integrated into full production, Starfleet would have approached the Romulans and asked for a new treaty, putting the Romulans into a position where they would have had no real choice but to accept the fact that Starfleet indeed had the phasing tech readily available and would use it to such a point that no Romulan ship could do anything about it.

Pressman is a man of the 20th century, a time where powerful empires always fight and conquer, either militarily or economically, and that at the expense of MANY people, for the benefits of a few.
The UFP is a different beast and somehow I think I prefer that, even if it means to put a stop to the arms race in some departments.

[KirkSkyWalker]

And therein lies the problem, i.e. Picard's a left-wing Marty Stu who's always right.

It's not a problem. It's the way it works. Their military has some loose electrons, but it wants and tries to obey higher standards.
If Starfleet largely was in favor of the technology, they would have never let just one ship carry all the advances and discoveries to the point where its loss would bring an end to the secret project in its entirety. Presmman's allies would have been working on another prototype and by the time that tech was ready to get integrated into full production, Starfleet would have approached the Romulans and asked for a new treaty, putting the Romulans into a position where they would have had no real choice but to accept the fact that Starfleet indeed had the phasing tech readily available and would use it to such a point that no Romulan ship could do anything about it.

Pressman is a man of the 20th century, a time where powerful empires always fight and conquer, either militarily or economically, and that at the expense of MANY people, for the benefits of a few.
The UFP is a different beast and somehow I think I prefer that, even if it means to put a stop to the arms race in some departments.

Yeah right, Picard's wheedling spineless attempts at appeasement would gain him SO much respect from empires. (GUFFAW)

[Mr. Oragahn]

And therein lies the problem, i.e. Picard's a left-wing Marty Stu who's always right.

It's not a problem. It's the way it works. Their military has some loose electrons, but it wants and tries to obey higher standards.
If Starfleet largely was in favor of the technology, they would have never let just one ship carry all the advances and discoveries to the point where its loss would bring an end to the secret project in its entirety. Presmman's allies would have been working on another prototype and by the time that tech was ready to get integrated into full production, Starfleet would have approached the Romulans and asked for a new treaty, putting the Romulans into a position where they would have had no real choice but to accept the fact that Starfleet indeed had the phasing tech readily available and would use it to such a point that no Romulan ship could do anything about it.

Pressman is a man of the 20th century, a time where powerful empires always fight and conquer, either militarily or economically, and that at the expense of MANY people, for the benefits of a few.
The UFP is a different beast and somehow I think I prefer that, even if it means to put a stop to the arms race in some departments.

Yeah right, Picard's wheedling spineless attempts at appeasement would gain him SO much respect from empires. (GUFFAW)

Way to miss the point.

[KirkSkyWalker]

The point was preachy pacifism-- which in reality only provokes an imperialist.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The point was preachy pacifism-- which in reality only provokes an imperialist.

Not when said Imperialist has signed a treaty. Being preachy about pacifism is precisely the point of the treaty and the best to guarantee that the treaty wasn't broken. Otherwise Starfleet would have never signed it to begin with.

[KirkSkyWalker]

The point was preachy pacifism-- which in reality only provokes an imperialist.

Not when said Imperialist has signed a treaty.

And broke it 2 years before the appeasement.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The point was preachy pacifism-- which in reality only provokes an imperialist.

Not when said Imperialist has signed a treaty.

And broke it 2 years before the appeasement.

As?

[Mike DiCenso]

Who did the breaking of what, and exactly when?
-Mike

[KirkSkyWalker]

Who did the breaking of what, and exactly when?
-Mike

In "The Next Phase," the Romulans tried developing a phase-cloak and blowing up the Enterprise.

[Mike DiCenso]

Except that the Treat of Algerion doesn't forbid either them or the Klingons from developing cloaking technology (the Klingons tried, but failed, like the Romulans did). The occasional skirmish or violation isn't going to send both parties off to war, especially since in "The Defector", the E-D violated the NZ looking for a non-existent base several years prior, and got into scuffles with Romulan ships trying to make contract with the Tin Man alien. Before that way back in TOS, the E-1701 crossed the NZ under orders from Commodore Stocker in "The Deadly Years", then the following year violated it again, and stole a cloaking device to boot.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Except that the Treat of Algerion doesn't forbid either them or the Klingons from developing cloaking technology (the Klingons tried, but failed, like the Romulans did). The occasional skirmish or violation isn't going to send both parties off to war, especially since in "The Defector", the E-D violated the NZ looking for a non-existent base several years prior, and got into scuffles with Romulan ships trying to make contract with the Tin Man alien. Before that way back in TOS, the E-1701 crossed the NZ under orders from Commodore Stocker in "The Deadly Years", then the following year violated it again, and stole a cloaking device to boot.
-Mike

Just like in real geopolitics, there are those in power who can toe the line beyond certain limits, and there are those violations which will be noted but not be used effectively.
However, the development of the phasing tech is a different matter. It's like the difference between foreign aircrafts flying over a territory: it makes politicians boil for a week, they note it, but they things settle. But when someone begins to develop or acquire a nuclear weapon, or install new missiles silos to the point where it will seriously tip the balance, the stakes raise dramatically.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Except that the Treat of Algerion doesn't forbid either them or the Klingons from developing cloaking technology (the Klingons tried, but failed, like the Romulans did).

Does the treaty also permit Romulans to use their devices to blow up Federation starships, like they tried to do in "The Next Phase?"

And what kind of trembling rabbits has the Federation become, when they sign one-sided treaties-- and kill each other in civil riots and mutiny against their own side, in order to avoid offending a potential enemy by violating them, with a device which will make their own side virtually invincible anyway?

The occasional skirmish or violation isn't going to send both parties off to war, especially since in "The Defector", the E-D violated the NZ looking for a non-existent base several years prior, and got into scuffles with Romulan ships trying to make contract with the Tin Man alien. Before that way back in TOS, the E-1701 crossed the NZ under orders from Commodore Stocker in "The Deadly Years", then the following year violated it again, and stole a cloaking device to boot.
-Mike

If you recall, Kirk was ordered to feign insanity, in order to immunize the Federation from account for his actions if he failed; meanwhile Spock was ordered to pretend to be a traitor to the Federation as well, and essentially seduce the Romulan admiral.

[Mike DiCenso]

Does the treaty also permit Romulans to use their devices to blow up Federation starships, like they tried to do in "The Next Phase?"

How did they use their phase cloak to blow up the E-D? They didn't. They tried a feedback on the power transfer beam the E-D had set up. Obviously the Federation got to use that against the Romulans diplomatically at some point, perhaps gaining a concession somewhere.

If you recall, Kirk was ordered to feign insanity, in order to immunize the Federation from account for his actions if he failed; meanwhile Spock was ordered to pretend to be a traitor to the Federation as well, and essentially seduce the Romulan admiral.

Which really doesn't help anything. Also in DS9's "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" Section 31 and Starfleet screws over royally Senator Cretak by getting her imprisoned for treason, and to help forward secret pro-Federation supporter and Tal Shiar head Koval. So lots of death and skulldruggery on both sides, eh? At least in the latter, the Romulans aren't likely aware of the deception.
-Mike

[KirkSkyWalker]

Does the treaty also permit Romulans to use their devices to blow up Federation starships, like they tried to do in "The Next Phase?"

How did they use their phase cloak to blow up the E-D? They didn't. They tried a feedback on the power transfer beam the E-D had set up. Obviously the Federation got to use that against the Romulans diplomatically at some point, perhaps gaining a concession somewhere.

Um, "concessions" regarding blowing up ships? NO, I don't think so, that's an act of war and treachery which voids ALL treaties.

If you recall, Kirk was ordered to feign insanity, in order to immunize the Federation from account for his actions if he failed; meanwhile Spock was ordered to pretend to be a traitor to the Federation as well, and essentially seduce the Romulan admiral.

Which really doesn't help anything.

Yeah, it "really" does. If they fail, then it just goes on the records as a captain gone bonkers, and the Federation's not responsible; and if they succeed and get the cloaking device, then it's an act of espionage which gives the Federation a military advantage, so it doesn't matter if they don't like it.

But this was back before Starfleet became a whimpering litter of neutered lapdogs who tremble in fear to the point of attacking each other to avoid outside trouble.

Also in DS9's "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" Section 31 and Starfleet screws over royally Senator Cretak by getting her imprisoned for treason, and to help forward secret pro-Federation supporter and Tal Shiar head Koval. So lots of death and skulldruggery on both sides, eh? At least in the latter, the Romulans aren't likely aware of the deception.
-Mike

Political espionage isn't an act of war, particularly if the otherw side doesn't know about it.

[Mr. Oragahn]

[
If you recall, Kirk was ordered to feign insanity, in order to immunize the Federation from account for his actions if he failed; meanwhile Spock was ordered to pretend to be a traitor to the Federation as well, and essentially seduce the Romulan admiral.

This would actually show the importance of not screwing up with the treaty, although I don't know if it was already signed back then.