The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Seriously, there's a treaty signed by both parties. Not even the highest representative political or military member of the UFP is free of it.

That DOESN'T give lower officers the right to refuse orders and arrest their CO's based on TREATY-arguments. Thta's not my opinion, it's LAW-- take it up with Congress if you disagree.

I am pretty sure that if the ranking officer in a silo decided to launch his nuke at another country without orders a subordinate officer is well within his rights to stop, arrest and detain him until a enquiry is held or he is releaved.

However a trwaty violation could be considered differant than that situation so in that regard we must take into account that starship captains are expected to act as arms of the government when on missions due to sometimes being very far from contact with the government. As such the disgressionary powers given to a starship captain are likely broader than one of a contemporary navy due to the lack of communication involved.

Referances to the US congress are worthless considering the circumstances, after all a starship captain is actually capable of negotiating treaties on behalf of the Federation of planets.

What captain in the US navy can do that while out of contact with the US?....

[Mr. Oragahn]

Seriously, there's a treaty signed by both parties. Not even the highest representative political or military member of the UFP is free of it.

Treaties do NOT give lower officers the right to refuse top-level orders and arrest their CO's. That's not my opinion, it's LAW, and there's no evidence that it had changed for ST.

Aside from the fact that Picard did it and didn't have to suffer the consequences, you mean?
Do you have any evidence that old laws, possibly exclusive to the current American nation, still applies in the far future?

What's more, the Romulans had engaged in acts of War against the Federation by blasting the asteroid while the E was inside of it, so Picards actions were DEFINITELY treasonous.

You don't get to think in such binary ways. Romulans push their luck hard, and unless someone looks at their sensor registries, no one could prove that the Romulans knew the E-D was inside.

The UFP were more willing to avoid a war than the Romulans apparently, so they had the burden on their shoulders to present a clean slate and very good faith.

[Praeothmin]

You can make stuff up all you want, I'm not going to take up a fool's argument.

In other words:
You conceed... :)

[KirkSkyWalker]

You can make stuff up all you want, I'm not going to take up a fool's argument.

In other words:
You conceed... :)

No, in other words you're a fool.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Seriously, there's a treaty signed by both parties. Not even the highest representative political or military member of the UFP is free of it.

Treaties do NOT give lower officers the right to refuse top-level orders and arrest their CO's. That's not my opinion, it's LAW, and there's no evidence that it had changed for ST.

Aside from the fact that Picard did it and didn't have to suffer the consequences, you mean?
Do you have any evidence that old laws, possibly exclusive to the current American nation, still applies in the far future?

You mean that subordinate officers have to obey orders from their superiors and maintain military secrets-- and that loose lips sink ships?
That really goes without saying.

What's more, the Romulans had engaged in acts of War against the Federation by blasting the asteroid while the E was inside of it, so Picards actions were DEFINITELY treasonous.

You don't get to think in such binary ways.

Whatever the hell that means.

Romulans push their luck hard, and unless someone looks at their sensor registries, no one could prove that the Romulans knew the E-D was inside.

If you want to be be an IDIOT like Picard, who makes the OJ-Simpson jury look like Sherlock Holmes. Sure, they just fired on the asteroid for no reason. Insult your own intelligence if you want, not mine.

The UFP were more willing to avoid a war than the Romulans apparently, so they had the burden on their shoulders to present a clean slate and very good faith.

"Apparently?" Sorry, I've already asked for evidence that Starfleet wasn't 100% behind the admiral's orders, and you didn't provide any either.
Likewise, it was NOT Picard's job to fork over military secrets to instigate diplomatic resolutions, but to KEEP them regardless-- he was a Starfleet officer, NOT a neutral diplomat hired by both sides to mediate disputes between them.
That makes him a TRAITOR.


My god, pantywaisted frenchmen starfleet officers committing treason and the noobs applaud like seals? WTF?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

You mean that subordinate officers have to obey orders from their superiors and maintain military secrets-- and that loose lips sink ships?
That really goes without saying.

Correct, that sort of mentality does go without saying and is directly shown as NOT the norm as far as canon or the ideals of the federation is concerned.

In no episode of trek do we see that sort of rigid and old school WW2 mentality forced upon the captains of starships, in fact we see a lot of the time them upholding treaties or countermanding the orders of higher ranking officers as the morality of the situation and or a treatie violation dictates.

If you want to be be an IDIOT like Picard, who makes the OJ-Simpson jury look like Sherlock Holmes. Sure, they just fired on the asteroid for no reason. Insult your own intelligence if you want, not mine.

You think the federation is going to go to war when nobody was harmed, no proof of intent is available and a few within their own organisation was responsable for a huge treaty violation?.

Yup i would say there is a insult to intelligence here alright.

"Apparently?" Sorry, I've already asked for evidence that Starfleet wasn't 100% behind the admiral's orders, and you didn't provide any either.

Other than the fact they did not mention the details of the mission to the captain of the federation flagship?.

Likewise, it was NOT Picard's job to fork over military secrets to instigate diplomatic resolutions, but to KEEP them regardless-- he was a Starfleet officer, NOT a neutral diplomat hired by both sides to mediate disputes between them.
That makes him a TRAITOR.

He did not hand over military secets he mearly informed the Romulans that their government would be contacted shortly about the incident.

Picard also had the authority as Captain of the Enterprise and a officer to arrest the admiral on the charge of violating the treaty of Algeron a treaty all officers are under direct orders to uphold.

Pressman was the traitor.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Aside from the fact that Picard did it and didn't have to suffer the consequences, you mean?
Do you have any evidence that old laws, possibly exclusive to the current American nation, still applies in the far future?

You mean that subordinate officers have to obey orders from their superiors and maintain military secrets-- and that loose lips sink ships?
That really goes without saying.

The problem for you is that if you had any evidence of this you'd have presented it by now.
All we need is how Picard was treated after that. He never lost respected from other admirals, he never lost support from Starfleet either.
So it's pretty clear that the way things work in the UFP is not the same as you think it does.

Romulans push their luck hard, and unless someone looks at their sensor registries, no one could prove that the Romulans knew the E-D was inside.

If you want to be be an IDIOT like Picard, who makes the OJ-Simpson jury look like Sherlock Holmes. Sure, they just fired on the asteroid for no reason. Insult your own intelligence if you want, not mine.

You don't understand. It's the Romulans who would be insulting people's intelligence, but they could allow that, because they're not the Union of Fuzzy Peacenicks, they're an Empire, and they're obnoxious. The UFP has to make more concessions since they crave for neutrality and peace more than the Romulan Empire at that time. That's what the Romulans can bully and bait a bit.

The UFP were more willing to avoid a war than the Romulans apparently, so they had the burden on their shoulders to present a clean slate and very good faith.

"Apparently?" Sorry, I've already asked for evidence that Starfleet wasn't 100% behind the admiral's orders, and you didn't provide any either.

The fact that both the admiral and Riker had to keep their mouths shut for ages and for the fact that it was a heavy secret to Riker doesn't tell you enough about it?
The fact that the UFP signed a treaty forbidding this isn't a clue?
And the fact that Picard did what he did after being forced to use the technology right in front of a Romulan ship doesn't ring a bell?

Likewise, it was NOT Picard's job to fork over military secrets to instigate diplomatic resolutions, but to KEEP them regardless-- he was a Starfleet officer, NOT a neutral diplomat hired by both sides to mediate disputes between them.
That makes him a TRAITOR.

Drom the caps, it's tiring.
He never had to suffer any consequences from his decision, so it's pretty clear that Starfleet condoned his course of action, like it or not.
Not to say that the traitor is the admiral who violated a most important peace treaty signed by both parties, and Riker could be called as such as well, but he tried to correct that.

My god, pantywaisted frenchmen starfleet officers committing treason and the noobs applaud like seals? WTF?

The noobs? I suggest you tone it down.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Aside from the fact that Picard did it and didn't have to suffer the consequences, you mean?
Do you have any evidence that old laws, possibly exclusive to the current American nation, still applies in the far future?

You mean that subordinate officers have to obey orders from their superiors and maintain military secrets-- and that loose lips sink ships?
That really goes without saying.

The problem for you is that if you had any evidence of this you'd have presented it by now.
All we need is how Picard was treated after that. He never lost respected from other admirals, he never lost support from Starfleet either.
So it's pretty clear that the way things work in the UFP is not the same as you think it does.

And therein lies the problem, i.e. Picard's a left-wing Marty Stu who's always right.

[Who is like God arbour]

And therein lies the problem, i.e. Picard's a left-wing Marty Stu who's always right.

An in-universe explanation would be that he could choose to make that move because he knew the way things work in the UFP and that his decision would be respected.
If he had to fear to get punished for that, he maybe would have decided differently.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

And therein lies the problem, i.e. Picard's a left-wing Marty Stu who's always right.

An in-universe explanation would be that he could choose to make that move because he knew the way things work in the UFP and that his decision would be respected.

If he had to fear to get punished for that, he maybe would have decided differently.

It is doubtful he would concern himself over being demoted or court martialed and sent to a federation prison on such a matter of principal especially considering the many times we see him willing to sacrifice his own life on such matters.

[KirkSkyWalker]

And therein lies the problem, i.e. Picard's a left-wing Marty Stu who's always right.

An in-universe explanation would be that he could choose to make that move because he knew the way things work in the UFP and that his decision would be respected.
If he had to fear to get punished for that, he maybe would have decided differently.

Great, so every crew-member can refuse every order if they think it violates some "peace-treaty," and then commit mutiny and get away with it.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

And therein lies the problem, i.e. Picard's a left-wing Marty Stu who's always right.

An in-universe explanation would be that he could choose to make that move because he knew the way things work in the UFP and that his decision would be respected.
If he had to fear to get punished for that, he maybe would have decided differently.

Great, so every crew-member can refuse every order if they think it violates some "peace-treaty," and then commit mutiny and get away with it.

You do love your strawmen do you not?.

1. The captain of the flagship of the federation is not just any crewman and Picard required the bridge crews (also all ranking officers) support on the matter.

2. He did not "think it violates some peace-treaty" he knew it violated a important peace treaty.

3. He did not commit mutiny he did his duty and what was within his rights as a high ranking officer in starfleet.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Puh-leeze, you make Dorothy look like Sneezy when it comes to loving strawmen.

You seriously don't think that officers are required to obey orders if they violate a treaty?

[Kane Starkiller]

Opposing the development of a technology the could destabilize relationships with Romulans is one thing but unilateraly deciding to expose the technology to Romulans? Now that was stupid and traitorous.
Chain of command exists for a reason and a captain cannot be allowed to unilateraly decide what is "best" for Federation but air his concernes to a superior officer or the civilian government not blow the tech to a Romulan captain.
It also doesn't do anything to allay Romulan fears since now they have confirmation of forbidden technology and Picard's claim that he intentionally deactivated the cloak in the interest of peace rather than cloak accidentally deactivating and Picard just lying to cover his and Federation's ass.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Puh-leeze, you make Dorothy look like Sneezy when it comes to loving strawmen.

A list of my strawmen pls.

You seriously don't think that officers are required to obey orders if they violate a treaty?

Many militarys have sctions of their regulations regarding illegal orders actually.

Opposing the development of a technology the could destabilize relationships with Romulans is one thing but unilateraly deciding to expose the technology to Romulans? Now that was stupid and traitorous.

That depends entirely on the wording and the things they are to abide by in the treaty, it is certainly reasonable to assume that it involves making the romulans aware of any discovery or even accidental development of cloaking tech or simular tech. Most treaties include many provisions to cover a multitude of eventualities concerning the subject.

Chain of command exists for a reason and a captain cannot be allowed to unilateraly decide what is "best" for Federation but air his concernes to a superior officer or the civilian government.

Actually that is exactly what a federation starship captain is to do and does do almost on a dayly basis.

Most of the time the captain of a starship and especially a large ship of exploration like the E-D is a representative of the Federation and has the ability to make decisions that effect it.

It also doesn't do anything to allay Romulan fears since now they have confirmation of forbidden technology and Picard's claim that he intentionally deactivated the cloak in the interest of peace rather than cloak accidentally deactivating and Picard just lying to cover his and Federation's ass.

Even the most paranoid Romulan would be hard pressed to believe that the E-D just happened to lose its cloak right in front of them while stopped rather than in the process of trying to escape while cloaked. If you wanna keep the cloak a secret you do not give the order:-

"HELM MOVE US OUT OF THE ASTEROID THEN PARK US RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE ROMULAN SHIP AND COME TO A FULL STOP......BECAUSE WE HAVE TO GET OUT OF HERE ASAP WITH OUR SECRET CLOAK......."

Now i think picard did it to preserve the federation honesty and integrity and stop any attempt of a cover up that would harm the principals of the federation in the long run. And if you disagree with THAT i suppose a argument could be made for both positions.