Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

The reliance on the Jedi was the Republics weakness, it really had no true oposition for so long that its political accumen had become stagnant, the Jedi's ability at dealing with any disputes by essentially sensing the true motives and intentions of both parties made disputes easily rectified but also the republic terribly vulnerable when that ability was blocked or clouded.

The jedi never seemed to me like a police force or a army but rather more like high powered diplomats with broad discresionary powers to deal with situations while also having the personal combat skill to deal with most situations should violence be required in defence or to deal with a problem where diplomacy falied.

At least that is the impression i got from the last 3 movies (1, 2 and 3), the Republic had a fatal flaw in it and it was one of apathy.


PS: I think the force would work in the SW galaxy, but in a galaxy where telepathy is comon place and even TK abilities are not exactly uber rare i do not think it is going to be a issue. 10.000 jedi is not impresive when the SW galaxy has entire races of billions with advanced mental powers and or abilities.

[Praeothmin]

a single Jango Fett was a match even for Jedi like Obi-wan

This has always been my contention, that a good warrior with the right equipment could pose a threat even to a powerful Jedi.
Where I disagree is that the Clones were as good as Jango.
While they possessed his genetics, it is his experience that made Jango the man he was.
Also:

a single Jango Fett was a match even for Jedi (like Obi-wan) and Mace Windu

I have to disagree.
Jango was distracted by the horned beast, but the only reason he was able to even try to get Windu's saber was because that same beast had run over Windu moments before.
The same Windu who blocked all the shots fired at him by the Super Battle Droids, and who jumped in time so that Jango's flame thrower only hit his cloak.
Windu stoically and calmly dispatched Jango as he would have any other armed opponent, and really didn't seem that threatened by Jango...

While Palpatine's Dark Side use clouded Force visions, it did not affect Jedi's Blaster blocking ability.
They were quite efficient in the arena at Geonosis, and only a saturation fire was successful in killing Jedi, except for that lone Master killed by Jango.

Plus, as we can see in all the movies, TCW, and the games and books, Jedi aren't all powerful, even the greatest ones.
They have great powers, yes, but can be killed by non-Force users if the killer has great skills...

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I have to disagree.
Jango was distracted by the horned beast, but the only reason he was able to even try to get Windu's saber was because that same beast had run over Windu moments before.
The same Windu who blocked all the shots fired at him by the Super Battle Droids, and who jumped in time so that Jango's flame thrower only hit his cloak.
Windu stoically and calmly dispatched Jango as he would have any other armed opponent, and really didn't seem that threatened by Jango...

True, Jango only managed to singe a cloak with his aoe flame thrower, and Windu very calmly just strolled forwards to take him out.


However for a jedi with a larger battle going on around him i found him and most of them quite disapointing in regards to general awareness and how they were dumb enough to position themselves in the centre of a arena surrounded by heavy fire on all sides.

It was perhaps the most awful display of tactical manouvering from ANY fighting force let alone one whos members can sense each other and work almost as a single entity, all the available cover, all the available exits and they head str8 to the centre of a arena surrounded by elavated positions that also has great cover on all sides and in those elavated positions.........yea right that one ranks up there with dropping your pants bending over and grabbing ankle...

[Who is like God arbour]

Concerning the question how the clones could kill the Jedi, I have a quote from the RotS novelization:

• • The Clone Wars were the perfect Jedi trap.
    By fighting at all, the Jedi lost.
    With the Jedi Order overextended, spread thin across the galaxy, each Jedi is alone, surrounded only by whatever clone troops he, she, or it commands. War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception. And the clones have no malice, no hatred, not the slightest ill intent that might give warning. They are only following orders.
    In this case, Order Sixty-Six.
    Hold-out blasters appear in clone hands. ARC-170s drop back onto the tails of Jedi star fighters. AT-STs swivel their guns. Turrets on hovertanks swung silently.
    Clones open fire, and Jedi die.
    All across the galaxy. All at once.
    Jedi die.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Concerning the question how the clones could kill the Jedi, I have a quote from the RotS novelization:

• • The Clone Wars were the perfect Jedi trap.
    By fighting at all, the Jedi lost.
    With the Jedi Order overextended, spread thin across the galaxy, each Jedi is alone, surrounded only by whatever clone troops he, she, or it commands. War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception. And the clones have no malice, no hatred, not the slightest ill intent that might give warning. They are only following orders.
    In this case, Order Sixty-Six.
    Hold-out blasters appear in clone hands. ARC-170s drop back onto the tails of Jedi star fighters. AT-STs swivel their guns. Turrets on hovertanks swung silently.
    Clones open fire, and Jedi die.
    All across the galaxy. All at once.
    Jedi die.

I will not deny that the lack of emotion actually helped but i doubt many would have survived even against human troops considering they were likely in the middle of fights and totally out of position and outnumbered.

The main differance was that with human troops you would get a fella going "hoy jedi dude do you know what order-sixty six is"?....and blowing the deal before it even got started.

[KirkSkyWalker]

The reliance on the Jedi was the Republics weakness, it really had no true oposition for so long that its political accumen had become stagnant, the Jedi's ability at dealing with any disputes by essentially sensing the true motives and intentions of both parties made disputes easily rectified but also the republic terribly vulnerable when that ability was blocked or clouded.

The jedi never seemed to me like a police force or a army but rather more like high powered diplomats with broad discresionary powers to deal with situations while also having the personal combat skill to deal with most situations should violence be required in defence or to deal with a problem where diplomacy falied.

I.e. Orwelll meets Machiavelli-- pass.

PS: I think the force would work in the SW galaxy, but in a galaxy where telepathy is comon place and even TK abilities are not exactly uber rare i do not think it is going to be a issue. 10.000 jedi is not impresive when the SW galaxy has entire races of billions with advanced mental powers and or abilities.

Again, it's not just those or Sith-powers, but the "all-sensing" abilities, as well as precognition etc.
However even with the Force, the Jedi or Sith would be no match for the powers that the Federation gained in "Plato's Stepchildren" from the injections of Kironide.

[KirkSkyWalker]

a single Jango Fett was a match even for Jedi like Obi-wan

This has always been my contention, that a good warrior with the right equipment could pose a threat even to a powerful Jedi.
Where I disagree is that the Clones were as good as Jango.
While they possessed his genetics, it is his experience that made Jango the man he was.

Jango Fett had trained the clones personally for 10 years, and they had been run through countless combat-sims for their entire lives; so they would be almost equally as good in combat as Jango. As he told Obi-wan, "They'll do their job-- I guarantee it."
While they might not have been as good as Jango Fett, you can be sure that 100 of them were even better-- as they proved in killing nearly all of the Jedi in one day.

Also:

a single Jango Fett was a match even for Jedi (like Obi-wan) and Mace Windu

I have to disagree.
Jango was distracted by the horned beast, but the only reason he was able to even try to get Windu's saber was because that same beast had run over Windu moments before.

Whatever, the point is that without the Force he would have been toast.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Concerning the question how the clones could kill the Jedi, I have a quote from the RotS novelization:

• • The Clone Wars were the perfect Jedi trap.
    By fighting at all, the Jedi lost.
    With the Jedi Order overextended, spread thin across the galaxy, each Jedi is alone, surrounded only by whatever clone troops he, she, or it commands. War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception. And the clones have no malice, no hatred, not the slightest ill intent that might give warning. They are only following orders.
    In this case, Order Sixty-Six.
    Hold-out blasters appear in clone hands. ARC-170s drop back onto the tails of Jedi star fighters. AT-STs swivel their guns. Turrets on hovertanks swung silently.
    Clones open fire, and Jedi die.
    All across the galaxy. All at once.
    Jedi die.

I will not deny that the lack of emotion actually helped but i doubt many would have survived even against human troops considering they were likely in the middle of fights and totally out of position and outnumbered.

The main differance was that with human troops you would get a fella going "hoy jedi dude do you know what order-sixty six is"?....and blowing the deal before it even got started.

And I supose the DROIDS were just frothing with rage, which was why the Jedi were able to kill them with such relative ease?

Not buying it; the clones' advantage was that they were able to think independently, and thus the jedi were unable to predict their actions like they were with the droids.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

And I supose the DROIDS were just frothing with rage, which was why the Jedi were able to kill them with such relative ease?

Not buying it; the clones' advantage was that they were able to think independently, and thus the jedi were unable to predict their actions like they were with the droids.

The only time we see them fighting droids is when the droids are in limited numbers and or the jedi are prepared.

Look at the fight against the droids in that arena, we have high numbers of jedi with the initial advantage of position and supprise but they still died a lot and ended up surrounded and needing to be saved.

Lets face it a bunch of rank and file basic retard droids with blasters kicked the shit out of a large contingent of supposedly the greatest warriors in the galaxy even though the jedi had huge initial advantages.

I would say it was the droids that took out the jedi with relative ease considering the circumstances.

[Praeothmin]

Jango Fett had trained the clones personally for 10 years, and they had been run through countless combat-sims for their entire lives; so they would be almost equally as good in combat as Jango. As he told Obi-wan, "They'll do their job-- I guarantee it."
While they might not have been as good as Jango Fett, you can be sure that 100 of them were even better-- as they proved in killing nearly all of the Jedi in one day.

So we agree.
While the Clones were good, better then any fighting force we ever saw in SW, one individual Clone was not Jango's equal, and it took many Clones (a minimum of 6-8) to kill an unwary Jedi, while 1 Jango was sufficient to give a hard time to a fully aware Jedi Master...

Also:

a single Jango Fett was a match even for Jedi (like Obi-wan) and Mace Windu

I have to disagree.
Jango was distracted by the horned beast, but the only reason he was able to even try to get Windu's saber was because that same beast had run over Windu moments before.

Whatever, the point is that without the Force he would have been toast.

Of course, as would all other Jedi.
Except that we are discussing here the effects of that very Force on the combat prowess of the Jedi.
And what I'm saying is that, while they are very powerful and make mincemeat out of many individuals, a good enough force can kill one Jedi.
They will not be such a force to be reckoned with on a battlefield...

[KirkSkyWalker]

Jango Fett had trained the clones personally for 10 years, and they had been run through countless combat-sims for their entire lives; so they would be almost equally as good in combat as Jango. As he told Obi-wan, "They'll do their job-- I guarantee it."
While they might not have been as good as Jango Fett, you can be sure that 100 of them were even better-- as they proved in killing nearly all of the Jedi in one day.

So we agree.
While the Clones were good, better then any fighting force we ever saw in SW, one individual Clone was not Jango's equal, and it took many Clones (a minimum of 6-8) to kill an unwary Jedi, while 1 Jango was sufficient to give a hard time to a fully aware Jedi Master...

Except that Obi-wan was trying to arrest Jango, not kill him-- which would have defeated his entire purpose of bringing him before the Jedi Council for information.

Jango also had no experience fighting Jedi-- and that was exactly what he fled Kamino to avoid.
In contrast, the Clones had over 3 years of experience fighting alongside the Jedi-- and the Jedi also trusted them, took them for granted and and treated them as expendible, so the feeling was mutual between them.

[Praeothmin]

Except that Obi-wan was trying to arrest Jango, not kill him-- which would have defeated his entire purpose of bringing him before the Jedi Council for information.

Jango also had no experience fighting Jedi-- and that was exactly what he fled Kamino to avoid.

He still gave Obi-Wan a lot more difficulties then any standard clone would have.
He still killed a Jedi Master in the arena on Geonosis with a few quick, well placed blasts, and he still went after Mace Windu when he could have fled the arena even more easily then he fled Kamino.
So no, I'm pretty sure he fled because he didn't want to put his son in danger, had no way of killing the Jedi when they were dangling, and neede to rendez-vous quickly with his employers...

the Jedi also trusted them, took them for granted and and treated them as expendible, so the feeling was mutual between them.

So because of that trust, the Jedi all suddenly became idiots and incompetent fools?
They still used the Force to evade the Clones attacking them, tried to defend themselves with their sabers.
Although you know the trust argument helps me more than you: since these Jedi did trust the Clones, I agree it was easier for the Clones to ambush and kill them, and it STILL required 6 to 10 Clones per Jedi, Jedi who weren't more powerful then Obi-Wan.
So no Clone is Jango's equal, period...

[Who is like God arbour]

Jango Fett had trained the clones personally for 10 years[...]

Can you provide evidence for that claim? I haven't heard that yet. As far as I know, he was only the donor.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Clones were trained by other people, notably the ARCs, but I think there's that stuff in the EU that also shows Jango giving lessons. There are other hunters who visited him while he was on Kamino.

[Mr. Oragahn]

So because of that trust, the Jedi all suddenly became idiots and incompetent fools?
They still used the Force to evade the Clones attacking them, tried to defend themselves with their sabers.
Although you know the trust argument helps me more than you: since these Jedi did trust the Clones, I agree it was easier for the Clones to ambush and kill them, and it STILL required 6 to 10 Clones per Jedi, Jedi who weren't more powerful then Obi-Wan.
So no Clone is Jango's equal, period...

There's the fact that in the EU, there are varying sword techniques, and some focus on blocking energy weapon attacks. It's arguable that the dinosaur dude wasn't really skilled in dealing with blasters. It just seems that the Jedi brought as many masters as possible.

That said, in general, Obi-Wan and like skilled Jedi can survive shooting from several clones, while I doubt even them or Windu could have managed against two to four Jangos firing at the same time.