Quantifying the Wells Class

[Mike DiCenso]

I'd rather they made up ANY sort of stupid sciencey sounding excuse that explained it than that, after all the comment was made by the original Spock making even the most absurd sounding science explanaion plausable compared to him making such a comment.

I think we can chaulk it up to Spock being "emotionally compromised". Anyway the star's explosion may come up again in a future movie, and yes I would rather they have said it was a hypernova, not a simple supernova. I also would have prefered the solution to be a subspace rift or something like that rather than a black hole. But we're stuck with what we have, and we have to work with it.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I'd rather they made up ANY sort of stupid sciencey sounding excuse that explained it than that, after all the comment was made by the original Spock making even the most absurd sounding science explanaion plausable compared to him making such a comment.

I think we can chaulk it up to Spock being "emotionally compromised". Anyway the star's explosion may come up again in a future movie, and yes I would rather they have said it was a hypernova, not a simple supernova. I also would have prefered the solution to be a subspace rift or something like that rather than a black hole. But we're stuck with what we have, and we have to work with it.
-Mike

"Emotionally compromised" does not explain how a mining ship could wipe out large fleets of warships or how a supernova can travel at many times the speed of light so it reached the romulan star system from where ever it originated. Nor does it explain how the nova explosion somehow accelerated and reached Romulas before it was supposed to as Spock was not "emotionally compromised" when he made his calculations about its time of impact.

I am hoping they make a special edition that at least gives some sort of explanation for these events even if its a half assed one as i said.

[Mike DiCenso]

"Emotionally compromised" does not explain how a mining ship could wipe out large fleets of warships or how a supernova can travel at many times the speed of light so it reached the romulan star system from where ever it originated. Nor does it explain how the nova explosion somehow accelerated and reached Romulas before it was supposed to as Spock was not "emotionally compromised" when he made his calculations about its time of impact.

I am hoping they make a special edition that at least gives some sort of explanation for these events even if its a half assed one as i said.

Well, consider this; how was it that the shockwave from the Klingon moon Praxis travel and several times the speed of light to reach the U.S.S. Excelsior? You can posit that the star's explosion in some strange way sent a similar subspace shockwave, that because of the relatively close distance, Romulus was destroyed. Spock's late arrival may be attribituted to the delays in making enough red matter. I recall that that is what the comic showed, although that was due to delays in the politcal wheeling and dealing between the Romulan senate and the Vulcan Science Academy.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Well, consider this; how was it that the shockwave from the Klingon moon Praxis travel and several times the speed of light to reach the U.S.S. Excelsior?

I always chalked that up to the fact that they were dilithium mining and dilithium being the stuff they use in warp drives caused a the super fast shockwave.

You can posit that the star's explosion in some strange way sent a similar subspace shockwave, that because of the relatively close distance, Romulus was destroyed. Spock's late arrival may be attribituted to the delays in making enough red matter. I recall that that is what the comic showed, although that was due to delays in the politcal wheeling and dealing between the Romulan senate and the Vulcan Science Academy.
-Mike

You dismissed the comic and novelization as non-canon earlier when the question about borg tech was raised:-

Unfortunately, neither the comic book series, nor the movie novelization is considered canon.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

You dismissed the comic and novelization as non-canon earlier when the question about borg tech was raised:-

You're getting a bit confused here. I simply pointed that out as an example of a similar concept, not that we should take it as canon. Spock got delayed, but we do not know why.

The Borg explanation fails because precisely we do not see any Borg technology, and the Narada's kick-ass abilties is perfectly in line with the advances seen in firepower and defence that occur each century. As an example, look at the Constitution class U.S.S. Defiant's performance against the Mirror Universe 22nd century starships, which are themselves somewhat more advanced than their Prime Universe counterparts. Other than the odd spiked appearance, the Narada is not all that much an outlier from what we should expect. An rough analogy would be if the ocean liner HMS Queen Mary were transported back 154 years in her armed WWII-era configuration. By the standards of her day she would be considered lightly armed. But imagine her using her light deck guns against the wooden ships of the line of the 1790's. She'd kick ass.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

You're getting a bit confused here. I simply pointed that out as an example of a similar concept, not that we should take it as canon. Spock got delayed, but we do not know why.

I am not confused im saying that we need good canon explanations for the events that do not make sense without them, especially considering they are the MAIN plot devices.

The Borg explanation fails because precisely we do not see any Borg technology, and the Narada's kick-ass abilties is perfectly in line with the advances seen in firepower and defence that occur each century. As an example, look at the Constitution class U.S.S. Defiant's performance against the Mirror Universe 22nd century starships, which are themselves somewhat more advanced than their Prime Universe counterparts.

The Naranda was a civillian mining ship not a starfleet heavy cruiser like that defiant , not only that but this civillian mining ship took out 47 Klingon warships not mearly 3 rebel ships.

Other than the odd spiked appearance, the Narada is not all that much an outlier from what we should expect.

It should look like a large bulky mining ship made mostly for carrying the stuff it mines, so in other words plenty of cargo space. Also we are not talking about wooden warships vs steel hulled warships we are talking about ships composed of simular materials also using less powerful but simular weapons, not only that but the ship going back in time was a civillian mining ship and not armed and armoured for combat like a military ship.

An rough analogy would be if the ocean liner HMS Queen Mary were transported back 154 years in her armed WWII-era configuration. By the standards of her day she would be considered lightly armed. But imagine her using her light deck guns against the wooden ships of the line of the 1790's. She'd kick ass.
-Mike

That is not a fair example and a terrible analogy, a more accurate analogy by todays standards would essentially be a mobile drilling platform or mining ship like the "Jules Verne" going back in time and kicking the crap out of 47 pre-dreadnought battleships.

[Praeothmin]

Kor, did you fail to see the myriad missiles the Narada could fire? It may not have been designed like a warship, but it was certainly updated as one.
Whether it was done using Borg Technology or not ir fairly irrelevent...

Imagine you take a massive ship like the "Oasis of the seas" from today, arm it with a shitload of modern missiles (even the cheap ones), place some armor below decks, and send it back to WW1, it would probably kick some ass as well, because it's massive, has some serious firepower, more modern computers and targetting systems, etc, etc...

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Kor, did you fail to see the myriad missiles the Narada could fire?

I did not fail to see any of that, did you fail to read what i was actually saying?.

It may not have been designed like a warship, but it was certainly updated as one. Whether it was done using Borg Technology or not ir fairly irrelevent....

HOW it was updated and HOW a civillian mining ship could tank 47 Klingon warships and HOW it got those missiles should have been explained in the movie.

I would hardly call it irrelevant considering its ability to do so was a HUGE plot device.

[Praeothmin]

Kor, did you fail to see the myriad missiles the Narada could fire?

I did not fail to see any of that, did you fail to read what i was actually saying?.

It may not have been designed like a warship, but it was certainly updated as one. Whether it was done using Borg Technology or not ir fairly irrelevent....

HOW it was updated and HOW a civillian mining ship could tank 47 Klingon warships and HOW it got those missiles should have been explained in the movie.

I would hardly call it irrelevant considering its ability to do so was a HUGE plot device.

I really didn't care as I feel ST has tried to much to explain everything in the past, and action made way for long-winded poorly thought-out explanations in the past.
I just really accpeted things as they were, and that's pretty much it... :)

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I really didn't care as I feel ST has tried to much to explain everything in the past, and action made way for long-winded poorly thought-out explanations in the past.
I just really accpeted things as they were, and that's pretty much it... :)

Voyager burned me out a bit in regards to "waffle waffle noootreeeenooowwwwsss" explanations/solutions for random crap.

However a "Nero stopped by a romulan arms depot and pimped up" (borg stuff or not who cares) bit of dialog slipped into the movie would not have hurt and is better than no explanation at all.

[sonofccn]

to add my two cents:

While I do think taking on and defeating without noticable damage 47 Klingon warships is excessive I think Kor_Dahar_Master you are over fixating on the minning part of the ship's job description. Most ships, even in the peaceful federation, come equiped with some weaponry even science vessels. That a minning ship, from a war like race who likely jump claims, is armed isn't surpising nor do I see a need for Nero to pimp up his ship to smack around a top of the line 23rd(ish) starship.

Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the paranoid Romulans kept a large "reserve" fleet of warship caliber ships perfoming "garbage scow" duty just so they would be overlooked and bypassed by an initial invader.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

to add my two cents:

While I do think taking on and defeating without noticable damage 47 Klingon warships is excessive I think Kor_Dahar_Master you are over fixating on the minning part of the ship's job description. Most ships, even in the peaceful federation, come equiped with some weaponry even science vessels. That a minning ship, from a war like race who likely jump claims, is armed isn't surpising nor do I see a need for Nero to pimp up his ship to smack around a top of the line 23rd(ish) starship.

I suppose its a matter of perspective, i think the Sov or Galaxy class would have not have had a walk over if it had faced 47 constitution class starships original or refit and the Sov and Galaxy class were the most advanced ships of the line not mining ships. The advanced ships would have a huge advantage in weapons range obviously but the Naranda did not use that it just took and tanked the hits.

But like i said i do not really care HOW it did it i just think it should have been explained in the movie.

Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the paranoid Romulans kept a large "reserve" fleet of warship caliber ships perfoming "garbage scow" duty just so they would be overlooked and bypassed by an initial invader.

AGAIN.

I do not care HOW they explained it was done i just think they SHOULD have explained it.

[Praeothmin]

Not sure about the Sovereign or GCS, Kor.

Remember that in TOS, a single Constitution-class ship could stand up to many Klingon vessels...

In "Errand of Mercy", it takes 5 to 6 Klingon ships to scare off the Enterprise, while the first ship they encounter gets destroyed rapidly...

A single Constitution-Class ship is more powerful then 1 Klingon ship.

We've seen that, in DS9, even an upgraded Miranda (a Constitution-Class's equal) doesn't resist for long to modern TNG+ weapons.

The Narada is massive, has many weapons, and if the Klingons ships didn't attack all at once, then it is possible to destroy them.
It destroyed the fleet of 10+ improved and upgraded Starfleet vessels within minutes, so if the Klingons still had the K'Tinga or D7 ships not attacking at the same time, then I have no doubt the Narada could destroy them easily...

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Not sure about the Sovereign or GCS, Kor.

Remember that in TOS, a single Constitution-class ship could stand up to many Klingon vessels...

In "Errand of Mercy", it takes 5 to 6 Klingon ships to scare off the Enterprise, while the first ship they encounter gets destroyed rapidly...

Yea, cool episode i/Kor was in it :).

A single Constitution-Class ship is more powerful then 1 Klingon ship.

It was certainly more powerful than a BOP, how it matched up to D7's or K'tinga's though seemed to depend on who was captain but in regards to just combat power id say roughly equal with K'tinga's.

We've seen that, in DS9, even an upgraded Miranda (a Constitution-Class's equal) doesn't resist for long to modern TNG+ weapons.

I do not agree that a Miranda is equal to a Constitution-Class, a Miranda is a light cruiser or destroyer (depending on your scource) while a Coni is a heavy cruiser. It may have caused Kirk issues in WOK but he was unprepared and had his shields down, under normal circumstances a miranda would be toast against a Coni.

The Narada is massive, has many weapons, and if the Klingons ships didn't attack all at once, then it is possible to destroy them.
It destroyed the fleet of 10+ improved and upgraded Starfleet vessels within minutes, so if the Klingons still had the K'Tinga or D7 ships not attacking at the same time, then I have no doubt the Narada could destroy them easily...

Under those circumstances it would win yes, but my main beef with the movie is that the circumstances of how it got all those weapons and improved its shielding and armour were not explained.

I can think of dozens of scenarios where it could win and how it gained the improvments and weapons to allow it to do so thats the easy part........but i think the film should have made summat up and told me.

Any short explanation would have done, im not very fussy in that regard and would have accepted anything even slightly plausable no matter how short the explanation was...........but no explanation is very annoying.

[Praeothmin]

A single Constitution-Class ship is more powerful then 1 Klingon ship.

It was certainly more powerful than a BOP, im not sure how it matched up to D7's or K'tinga's though.

These were D7s or K'Tingas being attacked in TOS, not BoP, ships that made their first appearance in the movies.

We've seen that, in DS9, even an upgraded Miranda (a Constitution-Class's equal) doesn't resist for long to modern TNG+ weapons.

I do not agree that a Miranda is equal to a Constitution-Class, a Miranda is a light cruiser or destroyer (depending on your scource) while a Coni is a heavy cruiser. It may have caused Kirk issues in WOK but he was unprepared and had his shields down, under normal circumstances a miranda would be toast against a Coni.

When both ships were unshielded, they were almost equally matched...
While the first shots on the E-Nil were on an unshielded vessel, it was not completely unprotected, because it had "Energy Fields" that seemed to protect the main parts of the vessel...
So while I agree a Connie may be a bit more powerful, the difference isn't that great...

The Narada is massive, has many weapons, and if the Klingons ships didn't attack all at once, then it is possible to destroy them.
It destroyed the fleet of 10+ improved and upgraded Starfleet vessels within minutes, so if the Klingons still had the K'Tinga or D7 ships not attacking at the same time, then I have no doubt the Narada could destroy them easily...

Under those circumstances it would win yes, but my main beef with the movie is that the circumstances of how it got all those weapons and improved its shielding and armour were not explained.

I can think of dozens of scenarios where it could win and how it gained the improvments and weapons to allow it to do so thats the easy part........but i think the film should have made summat up and told me.

Any short explanation would have done, im not very fussy in that regard and would have accepted anything even slightly plausable no matter how short the explanation was...........but no explanation is very annoying

Yeah, I agree a short explanation would have been nice...