Fusion power

[Mr. Oragahn]

You do realize that, given some calcs done here, that this means you've just scaled ST forcefields (not shields mind you, the two are seperate things - one can be up while the other is down, etc) up into the gigaton range, right?

All depends on these figures and if the force field would be exposed to most of the power currently produced in the warpcore in case of a breach.
Did we ever get a good indication of the size of such a breach, and what it really means?

[Roondar]

Reactor core breaches are unanimously portrayed as 'bye-bye ship'. The few we saw resulted in quite massive bangs.

For example, the Delta-Flyer core explosion during the 'race' episode would result in an explosion that would've destroyed all ships waiting at the finish line. Luckilly the crew managed to eject it in a nebula that absorbed part of the shock. Even so, the explosion managed to rock the ships waiting at the finish line, 1.2 million km away.

There is also the Yamato breach and the one in Generations. Insurrection is tougher because there was some odd subspace-stuff going on, but that too created a big bang.

--

My position is this: the forcefields around the warpcore are not meant to stop a breach. Every breach portrayed so far (or averted ones) was an end-of-ship event, proving the energies involved are quite big. Instead, these forecefields are meant to stop things breaching the core to begin with.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Reactor core breaches are unanimously portrayed as 'bye-bye ship'. The few we saw resulted in quite massive bangs.

My position is this: the forcefields around the warpcore are not meant to stop a breach. Every breach portrayed so far (or averted ones) was an end-of-ship event, proving the energies involved are quite big. Instead, these forecefields are meant to stop things breaching the core to begin with.

Then what's the point of the force field? It can only be used to delay the inevitable, so leave enough time for evac or ejection of the warpcore.
Do these forcefields become visible shields?
Do they fill the fissure in the structure of the warpcore, or appear like a bubble shield around the core?
Would they be exposed to the full scope of the core's power, or just a fraction of it?

For example, the Delta-Flyer core explosion during the 'race' episode would result in an explosion that would've destroyed all ships waiting at the finish line. Luckilly the crew managed to eject it in a nebula that absorbed part of the shock. Even so, the explosion managed to rock the ships waiting at the finish line, 1.2 million km away.

There is also the Yamato breach and the one in Generations. Insurrection is tougher because there was some odd subspace-stuff going on, but that too created a big bang.

Come on, even Voyager was menaced by that explosion. That's a radius of 1.2 e9 meters. Imagine the intensity that's necessary to threaten a ship like Voyager, when the crew knew what was going to happen, with enough time raise shields.
Had it been a super massive über capital ship of epic proportions, then yes, it would be acceptable. But a Delta Flyer?
Why not an AM powered space Vespa? :)

[Roondar]

Reactor core breaches are unanimously portrayed as 'bye-bye ship'. The few we saw resulted in quite massive bangs.

My position is this: the forcefields around the warpcore are not meant to stop a breach. Every breach portrayed so far (or averted ones) was an end-of-ship event, proving the energies involved are quite big. Instead, these forecefields are meant to stop things breaching the core to begin with.

Then what's the point of the force field? It can only be used to delay the inevitable, so leave enough time for evac or ejection of the warpcore.
Do these forcefields become visible shields?
Do they fill the fissure in the structure of the warpcore, or appear like a bubble shield around the core?
Would they be exposed to the full scope of the core's power, or just a fraction of it?

I already said what I think the point of the forcefields is. Not to stop a breach damaging the ship but to prevent breaches from forming. This makes much more sense and doesn't require physics-law bending forcefields. (insofar an ST forcefield is not physics bending to begin with)

For example, the Delta-Flyer core explosion during the 'race' episode would result in an explosion that would've destroyed all ships waiting at the finish line. Luckilly the crew managed to eject it in a nebula that absorbed part of the shock. Even so, the explosion managed to rock the ships waiting at the finish line, 1.2 million km away.

There is also the Yamato breach and the one in Generations. Insurrection is tougher because there was some odd subspace-stuff going on, but that too created a big bang.

Come on, even Voyager was menaced by that explosion. That's a radius of 1.2 e9 meters. Imagine the intensity that's necessary to threaten a ship like Voyager, when the crew knew what was going to happen, with enough time raise shields.
Had it been a super massive über capital ship of epic proportions, then yes, it would be acceptable. But a Delta Flyer?
Why not an AM powered space Vespa? :)

The point here being that the detonation, if it would've occured as planned, would not have been expected and would've occured pretty much at point-blank range. Hence no shields. Heck, not even a yellow-alert. And ST ships without shields are rather vulnerable. And they should be. Even uber-unobtanium hulls are not going to fully block the equivalent of high-yield atomic weapons.

As it was, the explosion merely caused a 'gentle rocking' of voyager - meaning we heard the impact sound but nothing other than that happened.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Reactor core breaches are unanimously portrayed as 'bye-bye ship'. The few we saw resulted in quite massive bangs.

My position is this: the forcefields around the warpcore are not meant to stop a breach. Every breach portrayed so far (or averted ones) was an end-of-ship event, proving the energies involved are quite big. Instead, these forecefields are meant to stop things breaching the core to begin with.

Then what's the point of the force field? It can only be used to delay the inevitable, so leave enough time for evac or ejection of the warpcore.
Do these forcefields become visible shields?
Do they fill the fissure in the structure of the warpcore, or appear like a bubble shield around the core?
Would they be exposed to the full scope of the core's power, or just a fraction of it?

I already said what I think the point of the forcefields is. Not to stop a breach damaging the ship but to prevent breaches from forming. This makes much more sense and doesn't require physics-law bending forcefields. (insofar an ST forcefield is not physics bending to begin with)

You'll excuse me then, because this vision of the problem makes even less sense to me.
If the forcefield is already there to "prevent" any breach, then somehow I suppose it's supposed to be able... to be powerful enough to contain the reaction, to guide it, to harness it. That pretty much tells me that you think the forcefield touches the matter under reaction, and redirects the energies.

Then how such a forcefield could not be a cheat on physics in order to expel some net positive gain in energy?

It doesn't work. The only thing the forcefield could do is being a vector of transfer for the energy, making sure said energy doesn't pile up beyond certain levels in the core, and is properly channeled out of the core. Then, we're not talking of containment per se, but a tap, something that partially kills the reaction by absorbing energies, as much as a buffer material would absorb excess neutrons to kill a fusion reaction.

I don't see how such a forcefield would have any use for our little dense fusion fuel topic.

For example, the Delta-Flyer core explosion during the 'race' episode would result in an explosion that would've destroyed all ships waiting at the finish line. Luckilly the crew managed to eject it in a nebula that absorbed part of the shock. Even so, the explosion managed to rock the ships waiting at the finish line, 1.2 million km away.

There is also the Yamato breach and the one in Generations. Insurrection is tougher because there was some odd subspace-stuff going on, but that too created a big bang.

Come on, even Voyager was menaced by that explosion. That's a radius of 1.2 e9 meters. Imagine the intensity that's necessary to threaten a ship like Voyager, when the crew knew what was going to happen, with enough time raise shields.
Had it been a super massive über capital ship of epic proportions, then yes, it would be acceptable. But a Delta Flyer?
Why not an AM powered space Vespa? :)

The point here being that the detonation, if it would've occured as planned, would not have been expected and would've occured pretty much at point-blank range. Hence no shields. Heck, not even a yellow-alert. And ST ships without shields are rather vulnerable. And they should be. Even uber-unobtanium hulls are not going to fully block the equivalent of high-yield atomic weapons.

As it was, the explosion merely caused a 'gentle rocking' of voyager - meaning we heard the impact sound but nothing other than that happened.

It still doesn't make sense. Rocking the Voyager, no matter how gently, would still require an impressive force over whatever distance it was moved over.

Besides, the danger from the blast was precisely defined based on a range of a million kilometers.

We're being scanned by some kind of modulating pulse.
It's from lrina's ship.
They must be wondering why we stopped.
There's something odd about the amplitude.
Wait a minute. Di-di-da...
That's Morse code.
Harry and l use it in the Captain Proton holoprogram.
What's he saying?
''Fuel... converter... rigged. Eject.''
What does he mean by ''rigged''?
That converter's leaking veridium isotopes.
Why didn't the computer warn us?
The on-line sensors have been tampered with.
Can you contain the leak?
Too late. The veridium is already reacting with the warp plasma.
That'll cause a warp core breach.
ln less than a minute.
Then do what Harry said. Eject the converter.
lt's too late.
I have to eject the core.
Here?
We'll never survive the blast.
Neither will anyone else within a million kilometers.

Surface area of a sphere with such a radius: 1.257 e19 m².
So even if the hulls of our racing ships were made of 1 millimeter of tissue paper, you'd still be looking at an initial explosion worth of 3 gigatons.
3 petatons if the hulls could withstand energies in the low megajoule range, or almost 3 exatons if these hulls would take near gigajoules to get fatally destroyed.
Makes sense? Nope.
I've even question the idea of dropping the equivalent of an antimatter into an ionized nebula to tamper the blast.

[Roondar]

The three-quotes limit strikes back!
Here's the edited version.

You'll excuse me then, because this vision of the problem makes even less sense to me.
If the forcefield is already there to "prevent" any breach, then somehow I suppose it's supposed to be able... to be powerful enough to contain the reaction, to guide it, to harness it. That pretty much tells me that you think the forcefield touches the matter under reaction, and redirects the energies.

I think you misunderstand. I meant that I think the forcefield exists to stop bad stuff coliding with/hitting the warpcore and breaching it that way. There is some evidence that very bad stuff can already happen if it's hit with a handphaser. So a, say, falling bulkhead could probably also cause bad stuff. Or an invading suicide dude.

Having a forcefield around the core stops that angle of attack. In a pinch it might even double as a sort of shield from enemy fire aimed at the core.

Surface area of a sphere with such a radius: 1.257 e19 m².
So even if the hulls of our racing ships were made of 1 millimeter of tissue paper, you'd still be looking at an initial explosion worth of 3 gigatons.
3 petatons if the hulls could withstand energies in the low megajoule range, or almost 3 exatons if these hulls would take near gigajoules to get fatally destroyed.
Makes sense? Nope.
I've even question the idea of dropping the equivalent of an antimatter into an ionized nebula to tamper the blast.

Riight, I see (this is what I get for not doing the math myself I suppose).

Well, errm, you're right. That particular incident doesn't make sense. Unless the tampering with the core treknobabbled the yield up, I suppose.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I think you misunderstand. I meant that I think the forcefield exists to stop bad stuff coliding with/hitting the warpcore and breaching it that way. There is some evidence that very bad stuff can already happen if it's hit with a handphaser. So a, say, falling bulkhead could probably also cause bad stuff. Or an invading suicide dude.

Having a forcefield around the core stops that angle of attack. In a pinch it might even double as a sort of shield from enemy fire aimed at the core.

I see. That clearly was not what I thought you meant. So you say there's a sort of defensive force field around the warp core that prevent damage to its structure, both from phasers and projectiles?

If yes, how is that supposed to argue in favour of force fields capable of harnessing the pressures of super deuterium?

[Roondar]

Right, well.. I've re-read my original post on this and now I get where the confusion came from.

Suffice to say that particular post didn't contain what I thought it did. Nor what I feel is happening - just to be clear, I do not feel any forcefield aboard ST ships is designed to stop core breaches in progress from harming the ship. Perhaps next time I'll read them better before pressing the submit button ;)

The odd thing here is that I never even thought I had put that text in there without qualifying that I'd see such a thing as impossible and hence have been arguing against my own initial post for a while now. Maybe I need a vacation... <rolls-eyes>

So, yes - the forcefields are, as far as I can see, designed to deal with external threats to the core. The only element of these forcefields leading to believe they are more powerful than usual is that they are raised prior to expected combat and hence damage to the ship. Which could point towards them being used to stop enemy fire (ship-to-ship) from damaging the core.

There is, however, no conclusive data to support that this actually happens. Other than
the fact both ships known to use this tactic didn't have their cores breached ;)

--

Now, I'm not fully aware of the best showings of forcefields in regards to pressure, but I do recall high level forcefields being used to block any number of unpleasant things.

For instance: during early TNG it was implied that most of the ships power could be put in a single forcefield.

Undoubtedly there are more examples but I really don't have them at hand. Sorry :)

[Mith]

Well, I could see the advantages of wanting to use a force field to keep super dense material in its place and then pulling it back, but as Oragahn said, that takes a great deal of power. And while I think that such a feat is easily possible for the Federation, we don't know the method behind it. Even if we assume that there is a forcefield, it doesn't mean it's keeping the pressure. Something like a minature gavity well could keep that deturium down as much as they want.

In fact, you may not even need a force field, since you just have to release the gravity a bit and let it fly off. Or they could just have an awesome latch on their container. In any case, I doubt the force field is the thing keeping it down. That's just a wase of energy for something that doesn't need to be there. It might be there in the case of the cap or gravity well becoming nonfunctional for some reason.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'd expect something of that kind to be used aboard Romulan warships, with their singularity power plant thing.