Cardassian Dreadnought vs the Death star

[Jasonb]

If a Cardassian Dreadnought was going to try destory the Death star would it be able to.

[Trinoya]

Presuming that it doesn't run out of supplies, yes.

[Roondar]

Thats the intelligent big-bad-missile, isn't it?

Would it be smart enough to do a 'Luke Skywalker', or would it just try to detonate on the surface?

In the later case, is 1000 KG matter/antimatter enough to actually blow the DS up?

[The Dude]

I believe Tuvok comments that it's payload is enough to destroy a "small moon". Depending which DS we're talking about here then possibly, even if it doesn't destroy it outright it might be able to mission kill it.

[Roondar]

It was Harry Kim that said that. The episode also confirmed the 1000KG antimatter/matter payload.

Which surely won't blow up a small moon?

[The Dude]

It was Harry Kim that said that. The episode also confirmed the 1000KG antimatter/matter payload.

Which surely won't blow up a small moon?

*shrug* No idea.

[Mike DiCenso]

Thats the intelligent big-bad-missile, isn't it?

Would it be smart enough to do a 'Luke Skywalker', or would it just try to detonate on the surface?

The Dreadnought is far too large to pull that off, even on the second Death Star given it is easily 100 meters long. It also presumes that Dreadnought knows what to do.

In the later case, is 1000 KG matter/antimatter enough to actually blow the DS up?

Actually the warhead charge was 1,000 kg of matter and 1,000 of antimatter for a combined total of 2,000 kg. That would net you up to 45 gigatons, assuming perfect annihilation of the reactants. That would be enough to destroy (read shatter into pieces) an asteroidal moon in the range of 30-40 km. Also assuming the thing could detonate itself on the surface of the Death Star, the warhead charge alone is enough to at least put a good-sized crater in it. It's hard to say how the remaining matter/antimatter in the missile's warp core and reactant storage would add into the final explosion.
-Mike

[Roondar]

Thats the intelligent big-bad-missile, isn't it?

Would it be smart enough to do a 'Luke Skywalker', or would it just try to detonate on the surface?

The Dreadnought is far too large to pull that off, even on the second Death Star given it is easily 100 meters long. It also presumes that Dreadnought knows what to do.

Well, it was rather smart and it did have all these sensors. It may just pick up what to do. Then again, it's a talking bomb. It's just as likely to just try for a surface detonation.

In the later case, is 1000 KG matter/antimatter enough to actually blow the DS up?

Actually the warhead charge was 1,000 kg of matter and 1,000 of antimatter for a combined total of 2,000 kg. That would net you up to 45 gigatons, assuming perfect annihilation of the reactants. That would be enough to destroy (read shatter into pieces) an asteroidal moon in the range of 30-40 km. Also assuming the thing could detonate itself on the surface of the Death Star, the warhead charge alone is enough to at least put a good-sized crater in it. It's hard to say how the remaining matter/antimatter in the missile's warp core and reactant storage would add into the final explosion.
-Mike

I thought I implied the 2000KG payload by stating 1000KG matter/antimatter, but I'll be more specific next time ;)

Regarding the detonation: I know it's the Star Trek way to have surface detonations, but wouldn't a subsurface detonation make much more sense if you have an omnidirectional weapon like a bomb?

Anyway, it would be pretty silly to design a missile where the fuel it has is a significant part of the total yield. Surely you'd be better of to just fly a big warpcore in if that where the case?

[Mr. Oragahn]

Assuming the thing isn't shot down by the gazillion anti-capital ship guns on the surface, you'll get a nasty crater.
Then the question is if the station's key points could withstand the tremors.
Obviously, something of that mass must have some magitech that reinforces the structures and let's it cope with the stress.
But the station's structure would have never been under that kind of localized acceleration.
If you want to do it properly, aim for the dish, it's probably where a lot of sensitive tech and less armour is to be found.

[Mike DiCenso]

Well, it was rather smart and it did have all these sensors. It may just pick up what to do. Then again, it's a talking bomb. It's just as likely to just try for a surface detonation.

How's it going to figure all that out? The stupid thing couldn't figure out that it was in the Delta Quadrant and the planet it was attacking had nothing to do with any Cardassian one.

Regarding the detonation: I know it's the Star Trek way to have surface detonations, but wouldn't a subsurface detonation make much more sense if you have an omnidirectional weapon like a bomb?

Assuming Dreadnought didn't get shot down by thousands of anti-capital ship turbolaser batteries on the way in, then how is it going to pull off a sub-surface detonation?

Anyway, it would be pretty silly to design a missile where the fuel it has is a significant part of the total yield. Surely you'd be better of to just fly a big warpcore in if that where the case?

Depends on how much M/AM is can be stuffed into the warpcore versus being held in a warhead. As you know I calculated a GCS warpcore detonation at 3.98 gigatons, which is substantially smaller than 45 gigatons. I would also presume that the warhead is a way to ensure that there is a big boom should the missile expend most of it's reactants in fighting it's way through to the target.
-Mike

[The Dude]

Regarding the detonation: I know it's the Star Trek way to have surface detonations, but wouldn't a subsurface detonation make much more sense if you have an omnidirectional weapon like a bomb?

Provided it makes it past the DS defences, the missile would have to be substantially reworked to be able to detonate subsurface. At the very least it's going to need either an armoured nose or the warhead to be encased in a shaped and armoured housing. All the gizmo's related to setting off the charge would have to be quite robust as well, so that it doesn't go off early from the shock of impact.

Honestly, I think you would be far better off replacing the warhead with a solid, dense penetrator and driving the missile into the DS at high speed.

[Roondar]

Well, it was rather smart and it did have all these sensors. It may just pick up what to do. Then again, it's a talking bomb. It's just as likely to just try for a surface detonation.

How's it going to figure all that out? The stupid thing couldn't figure out that it was in the Delta Quadrant and the planet it was attacking had nothing to do with any Cardassian one.

I am assuming, for the sake of argument, that we are talking about a non-damaged one. You know very well it didn't see the planet to be the wrong one because the darned thing was malfunctioning!

Regarding the detonation: I know it's the Star Trek way to have surface detonations, but wouldn't a subsurface detonation make much more sense if you have an omnidirectional weapon like a bomb?

Assuming Dreadnought didn't get shot down by thousands of anti-capital ship turbolaser batteries on the way in, then how is it going to pull off a sub-surface detonation?

Perhaps I should have been clearer: I didn't mean to say the Dreadnought was going to be able to do a sub-surface detonation. I was wondering why it was not designed to do so. It would make more sense to try and get all of your explosive yield to do useful work than to have only half do something worthwile.

Anyway, it would be pretty silly to design a missile where the fuel it has is a significant part of the total yield. Surely you'd be better of to just fly a big warpcore in if that where the case?

Depends on how much M/AM is can be stuffed into the warpcore versus being held in a warhead. As you know I calculated a GCS warpcore detonation at 3.98 gigatons, which is substantially smaller than 45 gigatons. I would also presume that the warhead is a way to ensure that there is a big boom should the missile expend most of it's reactants in fighting it's way through to the target.
-Mike

I'm having this downright nasty vision of a 'true' doomsday weapon (in so far as a 45GT nuke isn't one :P)... Upscale it. Take a Galaxy-Class cruiser hull-size hull and fill it up with antimatter. Then fling it into your target at high relativistic speeds (say 95% speed of light+). Now there's a scary thought.

Anyway, the odd thing about the dreadnought it the amount of effort the designers of it went trough to make it capable of fighting off a big fleet. Methinks a Romulan/Klingon version of this would be better: no weapons, just a cloak. Whatever you just freed up by not needing weapons can be put into additional warhead yield. I wonder why the Cardassians didn't go that route. I have this vague memory of them having something like a cloak. But maybe I'm just wrong and they don't?

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'm having this downright nasty vision of a 'true' doomsday weapon (in so far as a 45GT nuke isn't one :P)... Upscale it. Take a Galaxy-Class cruiser hull-size hull and fill it up with antimatter. Then fling it into your target at high relativistic speeds (say 95% speed of light+). Now there's a scary thought.

I don't think that you'd need to bother with antimatter at such speeds. The conversion into energy of any matter while nearing c will be very high.
At such speed, all the matter of the craft will be vaporized.

Anyway, the odd thing about the dreadnought it the amount of effort the designers of it went trough to make it capable of fighting off a big fleet. Methinks a Romulan/Klingon version of this would be better: no weapons, just a cloak. Whatever you just freed up by not needing weapons can be put into additional warhead yield. I wonder why the Cardassians didn't go that route. I have this vague memory of them having something like a cloak. But maybe I'm just wrong and they don't?

I don't think they do.

[Roondar]

I'm having this downright nasty vision of a 'true' doomsday weapon (in so far as a 45GT nuke isn't one :P)... Upscale it. Take a Galaxy-Class cruiser hull-size hull and fill it up with antimatter. Then fling it into your target at high relativistic speeds (say 95% speed of light+). Now there's a scary thought.

I don't think that you'd need to bother with antimatter at such speeds. The conversion into energy of any matter while nearing c will be very high.
At such speed, all the matter of the craft will be vaporized.

Ah, yes. I forgot about that tidbit. Well, disregard the antimatter then, just fill it up with <insanely-dense-stuff> instead and then fling it as close to c as you can get it. No need to bother with warheads in that case ;)

Anyway, the odd thing about the dreadnought it the amount of effort the designers of it went trough to make it capable of fighting off a big fleet. Methinks a Romulan/Klingon version of this would be better: no weapons, just a cloak. Whatever you just freed up by not needing weapons can be put into additional warhead yield. I wonder why the Cardassians didn't go that route. I have this vague memory of them having something like a cloak. But maybe I'm just wrong and they don't?

I don't think they do.

Well, that explains that then. Still, a romulan/klingon version would be cloaked and hence a 'better' weapon.

And I still think all the weapons are overkill. It's supposed to be a missile, not a starship.

[Mike DiCenso]

Cloaked missiles are possible as this dialog from DS9's "Blaze of Glory" proves:


SISKO: Were you able to decode it?

REBECCA [on PADD]: Michael, I hope you get this message. We've launched the missiles. They should reach Cardassia in thirteen days. It may not bring back our dead, but at least they'll have a lot of company.

SISKO: Did you detect any missiles?

MARTOK: No. But that proves nothing. A few months ago, the Klingon High Council decided to aid the Maquis in their fight against Cardassia. We provided them with thirty class four cloaking devices. It was our understanding they would use them on their ships.

SISKO: But they could have been mounted on the missiles instead.

MARTOK: You see the problem.

SISKO: The Maquis had access to tricobalt explosives, biogenic weapons, antimatter warheads.

MARTOK: The death toll could be in the millions.

If the Maquis could credibly cobble them together, there's no reason anyone else couldn't.
-Mike