Anakin's force perspective

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

It really just seems like another plot glitch. Why can't Lucas just keep things straight?

[mojo]

as i understand it obi-wan wasn't all that powerful in the force, tending to rely on technique in lightsaber combat and whatnot.

Where'd you get that idea?
From everything I saw in the movies, Obi-Wan is indeed one of the more powerful Jedi out there.
He fights Anakin to a standstill, in lightsabre combat and in Force battles (Force push anyone).
He beats the crap out of Grevious, even after losing his lightsabre, using Force speed and Strength, and Force "toughness" (he was able to resist hits by a Cyborg that could dent starfighter plating).
Obi-Wan is anything but "weak" in the Force... :)

he fights anakin to a standstill, but does it using both plot protection and the fact that he is said to be one of the greatest students of lightsaber combat of all time. as i remember it he used very little of his force abilities in that fight on volcano-planet. simple force push, maybe.

he got lucky with grevious. if it hadn't been for that blaster (and his plot protection again) he'd have been toast.

also, i didn't mean to imply he was 'weak' in the force. just that he was average when it comes to force ability.

I agree with MoJo, Obi-wan is quite pedestrian as Jedi go. You have completely ignored the Dukoo fights, where Obi-wan battles him evenly with the sabre, but is just destroyed when Dukoo starts using the force. Both times they fight, he is effortlessly knocked out with Force TK.

Except lightsaber dueling itself is completely Force reliant - letting the Force guide your blows, parries, et cetera. Same thing with Jedi pilots - they rely on the Force to guide them.

Obi-Wan is a very strong Jedi; just not necessarily strong with the TK powers. Jedi less capable with the Force died in droves to Grievous, to droids at Geonosis, et cetera. To hold evenly with Dooku in a lightsaber duel - his greatest strength - requires exceptional skill and exceptional clarity of Force precog.

obi-wan defeated grievous because he was a main character in the plot of the movie.
and i agree that obi-wan is the fucking man when it comes to lightsaber combat, but i don't necessarily agree that he held evenly with dooku. he got his ass stomped twice, the second time within SECONDS of the fight beginning. he seems very weak against dark force moves unless the plot calls for it to be otherwise.
also i would argue that his skill in lightsaber combat comes less from force precog and more from flat-out balls to the wall skill.

I can't except in any way that Luke only spent a few days training. It makes no sense whatsoever. What I really have trouble with is that Ben did not appear to Luke immediately after the Battle of Yavin and instruct him to go to Dagobah and Yoday at that time. It would have given Luke 2 more years of studying under his belt.
-Mike

Well, Obi-Wan appears at a time when it seems uses the Force on his own for the first time, in the ice cave.
Perhaps Obi-Wan got ticked off and estimated now was the time.

Of course, it's not such a good excuse. Sending Luke to the swamps of Dagobah would have indeed boosted his training a great many times.

But perhaps Obi-Wan considered that Luke, for the time being, was much more important and influential working for the rebellion full time, while training him could wait a few years.

Disputable, but is there any other story?

A key point here; Luke used the Force to aim his proton torpedo shots into the Death Star thermal exhaust port on his own. More to the point, Luke could also hear Ben speaking to him through the Force. There is no reason why Ben after the Battle of Yavin could not have instructed Luke to go to Dagobah for at least part-time Jedi training under Yoda. Luke as a Jedi would also have been a great asset for the Rebellion, too, though it might have tipped off Palpatine much sooner.
-Mike

if we were going to go with the jedi assassin theory, wouldn't it make more sense to be sure that luke only got the training he needed to complete his mission? in that case it seems to me they wouldn't want him spending years training on dagobah. just enough to do the deed.

It really just seems like another plot glitch. Why can't Lucas just keep things straight?

because if it all made sense there'd be no point in forums where we debate the glitches? >:)

[Jedi Master Spock]

Yes, using a lightsaber requires skill with the Force, yet Jedi don't let the Force completely direct their actions. If they did, none of them would die. The Force is an all encompassing and basically omnipotent. If all the Jedi truly let the Force guide their blades, then they wouldn't die.

Well, here's the thing: They try to let the Force guide their blade as much as possible, but are often imperfect channels. They only have so much data bandwidth, in other words, and have imperfect muscle control.

They have to have some sort of control over it. Also, if this was true, why are the different lightsaber forms necessary? Why would the Jedi need to memorize these forms, and practice them, if the Force was just going to do the work for them?

Different Jedi approach the force differently as well. That, and as above, Jedi are imperfect human (and alien) channels for the all-encompassing Force. The less skilled you are with a lightsaber, the more guidance you need - and the more you will try to consciously think about your actions.

Think about it. If you're a novice driver, you might think about where the gas pedal is, how far you need to turn the wheel, et cetera. A novice at the art of the sword will keep thinking about how they need to hold it and where the blade needs to go. A novice pilot might not even know what all the controls do. The expert has an easier time dispensing with the basic mechanics - and therefore an easier time letting go and letting the Force guide their motions. They also have the nerve and muscle development to support it.

It doesn't add up. It is a fact that Obi-wan has good precognitive abilities in combat, yet I believe that to be more a product of skill then power. He never once has a Force vision, something that we know all the other Jedi Masters had. Not even in the EU, did he have a Force vision. Not once. He has never been portrayed as having amazing Force powers, he has been shown to be very skillful, but never very powerful. Above average, maybe, but not extremely powerful.

I think the Force ability to predict an opponent's motions and react accordingly is not quite the same as having visions. Were the other Jedi at Geonosis equally attuned to the "reflexive" aspects of the Force, fewer of them would have died.

The most striking thing about Obi-Wan's Force mastery is that he transitions to an immortal Force ghost - something we see only a handful of Jedi masters do. Lucas hints that it is something of an unusual skill.

[Praeothmin]

He never once has a Force vision, something that we know all the other Jedi Masters had.

Really?
We know that for a Fact?
How?
There are more Jedi Masters then seen on the council you know, and we have yet to know if they've all had Force Visions.
And, as has been seen many times (in the EU more then any other place, but still), not all Force users have the same powers at the same levels...

He has never been portrayed as having amazing Force powers, he has been shown to be very skillful, but never very powerful. Above average, maybe, but not extremely powerful.

Again, this is your interpretation.
Which is defeated by the mere fact that Yoda sends him against his former Padawan to defeat said Padawan, the "Chosen One".
If Anakin truly was more powerful and Obi-Wan truly this weak, then no matter how good he was with the saber, he'd be defeated really quick.

but does it using both plot protection

Invalid argument, Mojo.
Plot Protection isn't a recognized Jedi power in the movies... ;)

the fact that he is said to be one of the greatest students of lightsaber combat of all time. as i remember it he used very little of his force abilities in that fight on volcano-planet. simple force push, maybe.

Yet Anakin, who's shown to be almost as good with a Lightsabre as Obi-Wan, doesn't use the Force to try and beat his old Master.
He would if Obi-Wan had been that weak.
Also, when the two use Force push against one-another, there's no clear victor, as if they were equally matched in Force strenght.
Average Jedi indeed... :)

he got lucky with grevious. if it hadn't been for that blaster (and his plot protection again) he'd have been toast.

He first took 2 of Grievious' hands in combat, then stood up, unarmed, to a Cyborg strong enough to dent starfighters with punches. He even received such a punch without a mark, or any other effect besides getting shoved backwards.
Now, unless you're going to argue that Obi-Wan is a human being of exceptional resistance, or that all humans are that tough in SW (for which I would expect rock-solid proof), then it seems to me as if Obi-Wan's Force abilities are nothing to scoff at...

obi-wan defeated grievous because he was a main character in the plot of the movie.

Again, invalid argument... ;)

he got his ass stomped twice, the second time within SECONDS of the fight beginning.

Hhmm, lest's analyze the fights a bit more, shall we?
First fight, while Anakin gets stomped within seconds, Obi-Wan uses his Force induced fighting skills to hold off Dooku for a while, before Dooku's mastery beats him.

Second fight, Dooku, knowing that with Obi-Wan there, Anakin would fight intelligently and he would be defeated quickly, uses all he has to get rid of Obi-Wan asap, and then concentrates on Anakin, not knowing how much of the Dark Side Anakin now commands.
As the fight gows on longer, Anakin uses more and more of the Dark Side vs a Dooku who used up much Force to beat Obi-Wan.

also i would argue that his skill in lightsaber combat comes less from force precog and more from flat-out balls to the wall skill.

I would agree and even add that I believe that pretty much everyone's basic skills come from practice mostly, but then are enhanced by the Force.

[Mike DiCenso]

It really just seems like another plot glitch. Why can't Lucas just keep things straight?

Originally Ben Kenobi was supposed to have survived, and you also have to bear in mind that at that time when the original Star Wars was made, no one had any clue that the movie was going to do so well. Another thing, if we ignored the novelization that 2 years had gone by since ANH, we might just consider that only months went by. I mean really, would Han Solo really have failed to have done anything about paying off Jabba for two freakin' years, when he had the money and could even have arranged for the Rebellion to just send it to the gangster, if he had wanted to?
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

The most striking thing about Obi-Wan's Force mastery is that he transitions to an immortal Force ghost - something we see only a handful of Jedi masters do. Lucas hints that it is something of an unusual skill.

Well, it's hinted in the movie, but more directly detailed in the novelization of RoTS that Obi-Wan did have some special guidance in learning how to accomplish the feat of returning as a separate consciousness from the Living Force, namely in the form of his former master Qui-Gon Jinn... though how Qui-Gon learned the secret of becoming a Force Ghost is never explained.
-Mike

[mojo]

now i can accept that it's not kosher really to argue that plot protection kept a jedi alive, but seriously now, there are so many little things that argue against obi-wan being exceptionally strong in the force that for me personally nothing else makes sense in some cases. at the very least i would argue that he is incredibly strong in the force only when it comes to saber combat, which we know is completely possible from the eu. the second bane novel comes to mind. that saber master or whatever. help me out with that one, locke. yes, he did the cool double force push against anakin and didn't get blown away. but are we really arguing that obi-wan was as powerful in the force as the most powerful force user ever born? yoda sent obi-wan after anakin because he would have had absolutely no chance against palpatine (anakin was probably a bit less of a fight because he had so much less experience) and because it would make no sense continuity-wise for yoda to have been the one to defeat anakin. anakin and obi-wan did the cool force push move because:
a. it looked cool and
b. it clearly showed the audience that this wasn't going to be an easy match for either party.
in my opinion obi-wan should have been so overmatched by anakin at this point that it should have taken nothing more than a force choke to end old ben before he ever became, ahem, old ben. sometimes an invalid argument is the simple truth.

it's already been stated in this thread that piloting in the star wars universe can be greatly enhanced by use of the force. the eu clearly shows this over and over, as well as the films. isn't it interesting then that obi-wan again and again says that he hates flying, and shows that he clearly is not anywhere near the pilot anakin is?

there is the scene in which obi-wan and anakin playfully argue over how many times anakin has saved his life.

it was mentioned that in the first fight with dooku obi-wan held his own for several minutes while anakin was immediately defeated, and that in the second dooku used everything he had to knock out obi-wan early and that is why anakin was left to fend for himself rather than any lack of skill on obi-wan's part. while i freely admit that could be the case, and i have never read a novelization of a star wars film, i always saw the difference as being meant to show that by the second fight with dooku, anakin had risen as far above obi-wan in skill as obi-wan had been above him during the first fight, and further still since he defeated dooku while dooku eventually defeated obi-wan the first time. also, i would argue that dooku was simply playing with obi-wan for much of the first match. that was how it seemed to me, anyway.

i could be remembering this wrong, but i know there was a bit in ep 3 in which obi-wan says something like 'you're already a far greater jedi than i will ever be' or something similar.

while it is certainly impressive that obi-wan was able to take those punches from grievous, i would argue against this being something exceptional for a jedi. of course i'm not implying that star wars universe folk are that incredibly tough generally, but i would assume that simple dispersion of kinetic force would be first grade level jedi knowledge. we are shown training jedi doing far more impressive things in the jedi academy trilogy.

again while it is impressive that obi-wan changed into a force ghost - is it really that surprising when he spent years and years on tattoine doing almost nothing but talk with the force ghost of qui-gon, the first jedi to ever manage the trick?! i mean, that would be like being impressed that someone passed a difficult exam after spending years and years with the teacher.

you know, all this makes me sound like i'm saying obi-wan is some weak joke. i want to make it clear that i don't think that at all. obi-wan is a badass, and i know it. but he's a certain kind of badass, and that's all. he never should have been able to defeat anakin in a duel to the death, and he CERTAINLY shouldn't have been able to defeat vader.

then again, that's just my opinion.

[mojo]

i want to throw in that i also think obi-wan was forced to be the one to face anakin because yoda had some hope that obi-wan might be able to bring him back - or at least that obi-wan, having been anakin's master for so long, might have an advantage no other jedi would have. yoda already knows at this point that anakin has turned to the dark side, and i think it could at least be argued that he would assume anakin would be more prone to emotion than he was as a jedi - and aside from padme and possibly palpatine, there is noone who could cause him to become emotional more than his old friend, master, and brother, obi-wan. obi-wan would then be the logical choice, since if anakin gives in to emotion he might either hold back (which, good god, can we even argue that he didn't? he never uses any of his cool new sith moves on obi-wan, he only uses light force moves that obi-wan can easily block or straight saber combat - which he knows obi-wan is a freaking MASTER of. regardless of lines like 'this is the end for you, master', i don't think anakin really intended to kill obi-wan at any point during that fight - or if he did, he couldn't bring himself to do it) or become so angry that he does something stupid and gives obi-wan an easy opening (which of course he did). i honestly don't think the decision to send obi-wan was made based on his strength in the force.

once again, though, just my opinion.

also, if we are really going with the invalid argument thing - that it's unacceptable to argue that something happened because continuity demanded it, then how do we explain something like the point locke made, when obi-wan abandons anakin to die in horrific agony rather than perform a mercy kill, which is required by the jedi code?

[GStone]

For both the TK push and the fight, I think it was supposed to be shown as mainly brute force vs technique. Both are powerful, but anakin has a higher base level of power and ben has the experience. I do think Anakin could have won, if he didn't do the flip over Obi-Wan. I would think that the higher base level for Anakin probably would have let him push himself longer than Ben could, as we see with Yoda's body and his power with the force.

But, Ben has been fighting with a lightsabre and was Anakin's teacher, since he was 7 or 8 and was ready to be a knight when that happened. And if we take as fact that Ben did fight more as denfense than offense, that often helps you conserve your strength over the long term.

But, we also need to remeber there is a difference between a punch and a throw. A punch doesn't send you flying. It drops you. You'll hurt when a punch is a throw, but it has the effect of a throw because it's still a throw. Throws are more pushes than an actual strike. It just seems like you hit someone so hard when they go flying.

I believe his arm swung around his body, right? It wasn't just coming out straight to Ben, if I remember accurately. When throwing a chinese star or a knife, there's a specific point you have in the arc of your arm swing where you let it go to make it go straight and hit the target. If you let go before or after this place, it'll fly in a direction you didn't want it to go. It's the same thing here. Plus, a lot of stumbling you'd see in a real fight is from the person trying to keep their balance after being struck, but are unable to totally cancel out their body weight from moving to one particular direction and negating their momentum in that direction, as they continue to stumble. Being hunched over for many people is not the best position to keep yourself from moving. This makes you look like you put more than you actually did into the act.

Edit: I would also guess that this is one of those things where every single thing just happened to be right to set up the situation where there isn't as much damage to Ben as should have happened. This can include Greivous not swinging his obviously metal arm as strong as he could have when Ben was hit. He does seem to have some control over the strength he uses and he isn't a pure robot.

[Praeothmin]

but are we really arguing that obi-wan was as powerful in the force as the most powerful force user ever born?

Ah, you see Mojo, Anakin had the highest Force potential perhaps, but at the time he fought Obi-Wan, he still hadn't fully develloped...

in my opinion obi-wan should have been so overmatched by anakin

Well, this, Mojo, is pretty much as the basis of our disagreement.
You argue using your opinion as fact, when what needs to be done is to try to understand what we see in the movie (which is the only acceptable truth).
In your opinion, Obi-Wan should have been creamed... but he wasn't, as was clearly shown in the movie... So your opinion cannot be taken at face value.
It's worth something, being your opinion, but since we are arguing about things that were shown in the movies, we cannot hold it as truth when it flies in the face of what is seen, you understand?

it's already been stated in this thread that piloting in the star wars universe can be greatly enhanced by use of the force. the eu clearly shows this over and over, as well as the films. isn't it interesting then that obi-wan again and again says that he hates flying, and shows that he clearly is not anywhere near the pilot anakin is?

And it's been shown that not all Jedi have the same aptitudes in everything.
You yourself accepts the fact that Obi-Wan is an excellent swordsman, being even better with the Force enhancing his skills.
Well, Anakin has always been known to be a superior pilot, so it is only logical that, when both are using the Force to enhance their natural talents, the most talented without the Force will be the most talented with the Force... :)
Also, if you doubt Obi-Wan's piloting skills, I suggest you rewatch the asteroid scene in AotC.
He's doing some pretty nifty flying for a guy who's being pursued by the best non-Force user in the Galaxy...

there is the scene in which obi-wan and anakin playfully argue over how many times anakin has saved his life.

Seeing at how reckless Obi-Wan is, this would be normal...
See, if you're always the first one in a dangerous situation, chances are you'll be the first one in trouble...
Since Obi-Wan, the "wise" Jedi Master is always the first to jump into trouble, the guy following him will have to get him out of trouble.
This is also shown in TCW, where Anakin is always the first into danger, and Ahsoka saves him quite often.
Would you argue then that Ahsoka is more powerful then Anakin?

anakin had risen as far above obi-wan in skill as obi-wan had been above him during the first fight, and further still since he defeated dooku while dooku eventually defeated obi-wan the first time. also, i would argue that dooku was simply playing with obi-wan for much of the first match. that was how it seemed to me, anyway.

And if Anakin had beaten Obi-Wan at the end of the movie as Dooku had beaten Obi-wan, I would agree with you.
Unfortunately, the last fight in the movie shows us otherwise, and makes your argument a very big stretch of logic, at the very least...

'you're already a far greater jedi than i will ever be'

Which could mean a lot of things:
He's developped more different powers, he's a better man, etc...
This statement is as vague as can be for our argument.

but i would assume that simple dispersion of kinetic force would be first grade level jedi knowledge. we are shown training jedi doing far more impressive things in the jedi academy trilogy.

Why would it be so basic?
And games are rarely a good measure of canon, or else I can say, based on the same game, that a Lightsabre cannot cut through anything, because I couldn't cut through the Stormtrooper armor with my saber in the same game.
I needed three swipes to kill one soldier... :)

he never should have been able to defeat anakin in a duel to the death, and he CERTAINLY shouldn't have been able to defeat vader.

Except that he did defeat Anakin, and that he did give Vader a run for his money on the DS... ;)

anakin really intended to kill obi-wan at any point during that fight - or if he did, he couldn't bring himself to do it)

Which could be argued as the reason for Obi-Wan fighting so defensively when we know he's a Master swordsman.
He didn't want to kill Anakin either, since he implored Anakin not to attack when he had the high ground, and he tries to reason with him during the fight...

You'll hurt when a punch is a throw, but it has the effect of a throw because it's still a throw. Throws are more pushes than an actual strike. It just seems like you hit someone so hard when they go flying.

Tell you what, I'll punch you in the face wearing a steel glove, with my full strenght (which should match what, 1/10th of Grievious').
Let's see you take it without any adverse effects, and even better, let's see your skin take it without splitting under the impact... :)

Honestly GStone, even if Obi-Wan was in the perfect angle in the circle of Grievious' punch, where he has the least strength, the punch should have still hurt as hell.
We're talking about talking a metal bar to the face without flinching, without injury.
Nothing casual about that... at least, I don't think so... :)

[mojo]

i have every intention of replying to your points one by one, but so as not to have to come back to it twice, when i referenced the jedi academy trilogy i was talking about the eu books, not the game jedi academy. just in case that changes your response on that bit, i'll wait a day or so before coming back.

i also again want to stress my acknowledgement of obi-wan as a bad-ass, after rereading my last post i really was kind of harsh on old ben.

[Praeothmin]

Mojo, no need to wait, I can't change my response on the Jedi Academy bit because I haven't read the books, so simply ignore my reply to that point.
Even better, I conceed the point... ;)

I understand that you feel he's a badass, just not the kind that can beat Anakin.
That's the point we disagree on.
Like I said, it's not that your opinion is bad or has no valor, but, considering what we've seen in the movies and TCW, it's not representative of the SW "reality" (or canon)...

[Mr. Oragahn]

A key point here; Luke used the Force to aim his proton torpedo shots into the Death Star thermal exhaust port on his own. More to the point, Luke could also hear Ben speaking to him through the Force.

But Obi-Wan only made radio contact then, and it seemed he helped Luke a great deal. Even Vader was sensing something weird about the ship and so on. Luke could certainly not do that.

The real big deal in the cave is that Luke is clearly alone, he's not aware that Obi-Wan could be there. That's the key. For the first time, at least as far as the films tell, Luke believes in the Force on his own, alone. And succeeds.

*Poof*
Obi-Wan appears.

"Greetings, Sword Master. You have destroyed the Ice Wampa. Take this."

You have obtained Dagobah's location!

"Go to Dagobah, walk north through the swamps, avoid the mud slimo and find the elder Yoda.
He will help you on your way to the Force."

There is no reason why Ben after the Battle of Yavin could not have instructed Luke to go to Dagobah for at least part-time Jedi training under Yoda. Luke as a Jedi would also have been a great asset for the Rebellion, too, though it might have tipped off Palpatine much sooner.

Unless Luke was far more efficient and useful as a full time Rebel.

EDIT: Yay!

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

the second bane novel comes to mind. that saber master or whatever. help me out with that one, locke.

Sarro, you are thinking of Sarro. He was this massive Jedi Knight, all of whose training went into Lightsaber combat.

[GStone]

Honestly GStone, even if Obi-Wan was in the perfect angle in the circle of Grievious' punch, where he has the least strength, the punch should have still hurt as hell.

I'm not saying it wouldn't hurt, but there is a difference between a punch and a throw.[/quote]