Where is the proof that SWverse people abhor Teleportation?

[PunkMaister]

Well, I would assume the same thing in cases where the ship has to fly in an atmosphere (an airplane, for example).

In the case of a starship, flying through a weightless medium, sporting anti gravity technology, it would be less important... :)

Yeah I kind of forgot about anti gravity and hell without it not even the Daedalus Class battle cruisers would be able to lift off the ground. Considering that they are 225 meters in length, 95 95 meters in width and about 75 75 meters in height even they probably out weight the building inn question.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Considering that we're going offrails full throttle, I'd point out that the Voth cityship is also bigger than Prometheus and its negligible naqahdah reactor in comparison.

[PunkMaister]

Considering that we're going offrails full throttle, I'd point out that the Voth cityship is also bigger than Prometheus and its negligible naqahdah reactor in comparison.

True the Prometheus was able to pull that off with much, much less power.

[ILikeDeathNote]

A building and a ship are not built the same way. Say for example a cruise ship and a large office building the office building would be far heavier that it's counterpart. Sorry but you better come up with something better than just that...

Why should it matter? We already know (assuming it's canon) that the Voyager masses at 700,000. Let me repeat that: Seven HUNDRED THOUSAND Tons.

According to the Guiness Book of Record the largest building moved, a 9-story building, weighed a measly 15,000 tons (http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/rec ... ntact.aspx). This is basically about the size of a very heavy cruiser-type of naval vessel (including light carriers) and would be considered minuscule for any serious ocean-going cargo or cruise ship.

This link mentions that the Pentagon incorporates roughly >600,000 of concrete into its construction (or about a HUNDRED THOUSAND TONS LESS than Voyager). According to Wikipedia, the Pentagon is one of the world's largest office buildings by floor space.

So we know that the USS Voyager, a ship crewed by ~200 people, and hardly the largest vessel in the Federation, masses around the same as a very large modern building. The construction differences between a building and a ship are completely irrelevant when trying to figure out the mass limits of a transporter and is therefore a red herring.

[PunkMaister]

A building and a ship are not built the same way. Say for example a cruise ship and a large office building the office building would be far heavier that it's counterpart. Sorry but you better come up with something better than just that...

Why should it matter? We already know (assuming it's canon) that the Voyager masses at 700,000. Let me repeat that: Seven HUNDRED THOUSAND Tons.

According to the Guiness Book of Record the largest building moved, a 9-story building, weighed a measly 15,000 tons (http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/rec ... ntact.aspx). This is basically about the size of a very heavy cruiser-type of naval vessel (including light carriers) and would be considered minuscule for any serious ocean-going cargo or cruise ship.

This link mentions that the Pentagon incorporates roughly >600,000 of concrete into its construction (or about a HUNDRED THOUSAND TONS LESS than Voyager). According to Wikipedia, the Pentagon is one of the world's largest office buildings by floor space.

So we know that the USS Voyager, a ship crewed by ~200 people, and hardly the largest vessel in the Federation, masses around the same as a very large modern building. The construction differences between a building and a ship are completely irrelevant when trying to figure out the mass limits of a transporter and is therefore a red herring.

Re-read the thread because you are beating a very dead horse by now I've already conceded to that about a page ago...

[Mike DiCenso]

Considering that we're going offrails full throttle, I'd point out that the Voth cityship is also bigger than Prometheus and its negligible naqahdah reactor in comparison.

True the Prometheus was able to pull that off with much, much less power.

It was? Proof, please? You're comparing the moving of a walnut (the building) to a brick (Voyager).
-Mike

[PunkMaister]

Considering that we're going offrails full throttle, I'd point out that the Voth cityship is also bigger than Prometheus and its negligible naqahdah reactor in comparison.

True the Prometheus was able to pull that off with much, much less power.

It was? Proof, please? You're comparing the moving of a walnut (the building) to a brick (Voyager).
-Mike

Still the point is the Voth City ship is by a factor of many times bigger than the Prometheus and by default so it is it's power source. Relatively speaking what The prommie did is the akin of an Ant carrying that walnut of yours all the way to orbit. Could a small Voth ship the size of Prommie accomplish what the Prommie did with it's own native power source. Not their city ship.

[Mike DiCenso]

Why should it matter? We already know (assuming it's canon) that the Voyager masses at 700,000. Let me repeat that: Seven HUNDRED THOUSAND Tons.

Voyager's mass is canon. At least two mentions of it's mass in two seperate episodes:

"The man drives a 700,000 ton starship, so someone thinks he'd make a good field medic."
- The Doctor, "Phage"[VOY1]

"700,000 metric tons, 15 decks, computer systems augmented with bioneural circuitry, top cruising speed warp 9.975."
- Captain Janeway, "Relativity"[VOY5]

The dimensions of the ship vary depending on the back-stage source, however, but scalings do support a ship in excess of 300 meters given that the ship is canonically 15 decks tall (between 45 and 60 meters tall), which given a length to height ratio of 6:1, we would have a ship 270 to 364 meters.
-Mike

[PunkMaister]

Why should it matter? We already know (assuming it's canon) that the Voyager masses at 700,000. Let me repeat that: Seven HUNDRED THOUSAND Tons.

Voyager's mass is canon. At least two mentions of it's mass in two seperate episodes:

"The man drives a 700,000 ton starship, so someone thinks he'd make a good field medic."
- The Doctor, "Phage"[VOY1]

"700,000 metric tons, 15 decks, computer systems augmented with bioneural circuitry, top cruising speed warp 9.975."
- Captain Janeway, "Relativity"[VOY5]

The dimensions of the ship vary depending on the back-stage source, however, but scalings do support a ship in excess of 300 meters given that the ship is canonically 15 decks tall (between 45 and 60 meters tall), which given a length to height ratio of 6:1, we would have a ship 270 to 364 meters.
-Mike

And I'd very much like to repeat to all that this is beating a dead horse. Still considering the size of the Voth ship in comparison to that of the Prometheus what the Prometheus did is nothing short of absolutely remarkable given not just the size but power differences.

[Mike DiCenso]

True the Prometheus was able to pull that off with much, much less power.

It was? Proof, please? You're comparing the moving of a walnut (the building) to a brick (Voyager).
-Mike

Still the point is the Voth City ship is by a factor of many times bigger than the Prometheus and by default so it is it's power source. Relatively speaking what The prommie did is the akin of an Ant carrying that walnut of yours all the way to orbit. Could a small Voth ship the size of Prommie accomplish what the Prommie did with it's own native power source. Not their city ship.

It's an unknown. We saw only one other ship, but it was a very small one, much smaller than the Prometheus, in fact, and was a science vessel. But claiming anything about SG superiority in this case is a bit premature. The Voth themselves are advanced because their species is millions of years old, and dispite their doctrine, they advanced technologically to a comparable point with SG elder powers like the Asgard or the Ancients. But the Voth have quite a few technological prowess that many of the SG races would love to get their hands on. Personal phase cloaking shields, for instance, as well as phase cloak tech for both small as well as large vessels. The Voth also have some fairly impressive scaning ability; able to read individual lifeforms at 90 light-years distance!

To make the point: there is no way to know here which of the two is using more power than the other, regardless of ship size as there is little to compare one to the other. What we do know is that a very large Voth ship was able effortlessly to beam Voyager inside itself, and dispite the Federation ship having it's shields up at the time.

Speaking of distance, the record for teleport-style transport probably goes to the Dominion, with a range of at least 3 light-years, provided there is a homing beacon.

There is also an issue of how many transports we've seen in the SG franchise and how many we have seen in the ST one, and of those, how many transports wound up resulting in a serious accident, fatal or otherwise, and under what circumstances. In ST, the impression is given of thousands of routine transports on any one individual station or starship alone within any given time. Of that, there do not appear to be very many accidents, and of that at least a few of them have been faked or are the result of sabotage.
-Mike

[ILikeDeathNote]

Re-read the thread because you are beating a very dead horse by now I've already conceded to that about a page ago...

Still the point is the Voth City ship is by a factor of many times bigger than the Prometheus and by default so it is it's power source. Relatively speaking what The prommie did is the akin of an Ant carrying that walnut of yours all the way to orbit. Could a small Voth ship the size of Prommie accomplish what the Prommie did with it's own native power source. Not their city ship.

Doesn't seem very dead to me.

[Mike DiCenso]

Why should it matter? We already know (assuming it's canon) that the Voyager masses at 700,000. Let me repeat that: Seven HUNDRED THOUSAND Tons.

Voyager's mass is canon. At least two mentions of it's mass in two seperate episodes:

"The man drives a 700,000 ton starship, so someone thinks he'd make a good field medic."
- The Doctor, "Phage"[VOY1]

"700,000 metric tons, 15 decks, computer systems augmented with bioneural circuitry, top cruising speed warp 9.975."
- Captain Janeway, "Relativity"[VOY5]

The dimensions of the ship vary depending on the back-stage source, however, but scalings do support a ship in excess of 300 meters given that the ship is canonically 15 decks tall (between 45 and 60 meters tall), which given a length to height ratio of 6:1, we would have a ship 270 to 364 meters.
-Mike

And I'd very much like to repeat to all that this is beating a dead horse. Still considering the size of the Voth ship in comparison to that of the Prometheus what the Prometheus did is nothing short of absolutely remarkable given not just the size but power differences.

I posted that to confirm for ILikeDeathNote's own edification that the mass cited for Voyager is established canon, not fanwank or backstage "offical" material.
-Mike

[PunkMaister]

Re-read the thread because you are beating a very dead horse by now I've already conceded to that about a page ago...

Still the point is the Voth City ship is by a factor of many times bigger than the Prometheus and by default so it is it's power source. Relatively speaking what The prommie did is the akin of an Ant carrying that walnut of yours all the way to orbit. Could a small Voth ship the size of Prommie accomplish what the Prommie did with it's own native power source. Not their city ship.

Doesn't seem very dead to me.

OK then the mini debate we were having over Voyager's mass vs that of a building then if you need to be specific is over. The debate over teleportation itself is not because the Voth ship is humongous in comparison to the Prometheus and yet the Promethues managed to pull something nearly as big as it is without breaking a sweat and with a much considerably less powerful given it's size power source.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Erm, are we turning this into Trek vs Gate or what?

Scissors?

It's an unknown.

The Voth Cityship is huge, there's no denying on this, and logically, as all things go, the power production of a ship that size is simply ought to be enormous.
The building itself was actually worth 22 stories high.

Now, using the ESB, 381 m, 102 levels, 340,000 tons.
Using averages and remembering the naqahdah lacing being part of the building's makeup, we get 73,333 tons for 22 levels.
That makes Voyager 9.5 times heavier than this building.

Of course, considering the position of the camera, I may be missing a few couple floors closer to the ground.

The Voth themselves are advanced because their species is millions of years old, and dispite their doctrine, they advanced technologically to a comparable point with SG elder powers like the Asgard or the Ancients.

The Asgards, 30,000 K years ago, still had very limited means of stellar transportation though.

But the Voth have quite a few technological prowess that many of the SG races would love to get their hands on. Personal phase cloaking shields, for instance, as well as phase cloak tech for both small as well as large vessels. The Voth also have some fairly impressive scaning ability; able to read individual lifeforms at 90 light-years distance!

The Nox, who concealed part of their technology behind a natural way of life, were capable of phasing stuff out of people's hands, or phase people in and out, and cloak a flying creature and their entire floating city.
The Tollans had personal phasing tech, and they were considered to be what we'd be if we had not gone through the Dark Ages.
Goa'uld have developed personal cloaks, can cloak Al'keshes and Tel'taks, and Sokar got the tech ready for regular Ha'taks.
Some transport rings are seen phasing through matter.
The Alterans/Lantians have developed a vast range of cloaking and/or phasing devices. They can cloak crafts from puddle jumpers to cruisers or even Atlantis.
The Sodan (a group of Jaffa who were freed a long time ago and decided to follow the path of the Ancients) used personal cloaks which were speculated to be of Alteran design.
Finally, we've seen an Alteran device of the size of a keyboard being able to phase AND cloak anything from a small house, or a village, to the whole Earth, depending on the provided power (the former case being achieved by powering the device with the mere power crystal from an Ori weapon staff, the things grunts use to fire blue bolts, different from a Prior staff).

To make the point: there is no way to know here which of the two is using more power than the other, regardless of ship size as there is little to compare one to the other. What we do know is that a very large Voth ship was able effortlessly to beam Voyager inside itself, and dispite the Federation ship having it's shields up at the time.

Either they knew how to get around the shields, or had enough power to pierce the anti-transportation ability of shields.

Speaking of distance, the record for teleport-style transport probably goes to the Dominion, with a range of at least 3 light-years, provided there is a homing beacon.

I remember someone already citing this a while back. Are we sure of the range?
Did we ever see what device they used to do so though?

There is also an issue of how many transports we've seen in the SG franchise and how many we have seen in the ST one, and of those, how many transports wound up resulting in a serious accident, fatal or otherwise, and under what circumstances. In ST, the impression is given of thousands of routine transports on any one individual station or starship alone within any given time. Of that, there do not appear to be very many accidents, and of that at least a few of them have been faked or are the result of sabotage.
-Mike

Be it with two, one or zero pod, there has been no accident in Stargate at all.
Oh, one actually. There's been a mind swap between McKay and a woman when being extracted out of a Wraith beaming device, after its proprietary Dart crashed, obviously not working properly anymore.
Unless you don't attempt to sabotage or break them, those devices are actually very reliable, each one capable of holding 1000 people, and with a bit of tweak from lower tech people, could go on for centuries that way without any degradation.

[PunkMaister]

Erm, are we turning this into Trek vs Gate or what?

Scissors?

Rock! :D Just kidding, but you are right somehow a small nitpick about teleportation tech has turned into a whole ST vs SG all out brawl!

The Voth Cityship is huge, there's no denying on this, and logically, as all things go, the power production of a ship that size is simply ought to be enormous.
The building itself was actually worth 22 stories high.

Now, using the ESB, 381 m, 102 levels, 340,000 tons.
Using averages and remembering the naqahdah lacing being part of the building's makeup, we get 73,333 tons for 22 levels.
That makes Voyager 9.5 times heavier than this building.

Of course, considering the position of the camera, I may be missing a few couple floors closer to the ground.

Keen observations as always...

The Asgards, 30,000 K years ago, still had very limited means of stellar transportation though.

Also true for a really old race the Voth do not seem to have FTL that even begins to rival that of the Asgard.

The Nox, who concealed part of their technology behind a natural way of life, were capable of phasing stuff out of people's hands, or phase people in and out, and cloak a flying creature and their entire floating city.
The Tollans had personal phasing tech, and they were considered to be what we'd be if we had not gone through the Dark Ages.
Goa'uld have developed personal cloaks, can cloak Al'keshes and Tel'taks, and Sokar got the tech ready for regular Ha'taks.
Some transport rings are seen phasing through matter.
The Alterans/Lantians have developed a vast range of cloaking and/or phasing devices. They can cloak crafts from puddle jumpers to cruisers or even Atlantis.
The Sodan (a group of Jaffa who were freed a long time ago and decided to follow the path of the Ancients) used personal cloaks which were speculated to be of Alteran design.
Finally, we've seen an Alteran device of the size of a keyboard being able to phase AND cloak anything from a small house, or a village, to the whole Earth, depending on the provided power (the former case being achieved by powering the device with the mere power crystal from an Ori weapon staff, the things grunts use to fire blue bolts, different from a Prior staff).

Let's not forget that the scanners Atlantis have can scan nearly the whole Pegasus galaxy. At one point they were keeping track of just about every wraith ship and latter on every replicator (Asuran) ship as well

Either they knew how to get around the shields, or had enough power to pierce the anti-transportation ability of shields.

That about sums it all up...

I remember someone already citing this a while back. Are we sure of the range?
Did we ever see what device they used to do so though?

I do not recall that device personally but since we are talking long range transports we need to look no further than the Stargate devices themselves...

Be it with two, one or zero pod, there has been no accident in Stargate at all.
Oh, one actually. There's been a mind swap between McKay and a woman when being extracted out of a Wraith beaming device, after its proprietary Dart crashed, obviously not working properly anymore.
Unless you don't attempt to sabotage or break them, those devices are actually very reliable, each one capable of holding 1000 people, and with a bit of tweak from lower tech people, could go on for centuries that way without any degradation.

And they are forgetting that in Atlantis transporters are used regularly to move around the city and that the Stargate itself is basically a long range teleportation device also used on a constant basis basically.