ST has worse ship designs my a**... :)

[Mike DiCenso]

That is not necessarily proof that the newer starships do not have aux cons as most attempts to take over the Enterprise in TOS centered around either taking the main bridge ("Space Seed"), or main engineering ("The Day of the Dove"). Only in "The Way to Eden" was it ever used to actually hijack the the starship.
-Mike

[l33telboi]

The biggest problems with ST ships is not their bridge, but the nacelles. They're too exposed and too easily severed.

[Praeothmin]

That is not necessarily proof that the newer starships do not have aux cons

That is what I meant.
In the newer series, like TNG or Voyager, people can take over the ship from Engineering, and we know for a fact that the E-D has a battle bridge (Encounter at Farpoint).

The biggest problems with ST ships is not their bridge, but the nacelles. They're too exposed and too easily severed.

Yet, out of all the encounters, we rarely see Nacelles be severed or destroyed outright.
We have a few examples (ST II, a few ships in DS9), but it is a rare occurence when you count all the ship battles we've seen.
Which leads me to believe they are not the weakness a lot of people think they are...

[l33telboi]

Yet, out of all the encounters, we rarely see Nacelles be severed or destroyed outright.
We have a few examples (ST II, a few ships in DS9), but it is a rare occurence when you count all the ship battles we've seen.
Which leads me to believe they are not the weakness a lot of people think they are...

Quite true. But still, if you think about it logically, then the pylons holding the nacelles should be just as sturdy as any other bit of the superstructure on the vessel. Meaning they become somewhat of a liability during combat.

[Praeothmin]

They are probably as sturdy, if not sturdier then any other part of the ship, and their apparent weakness can be countered by the fact that they seem rather hard to hit in combat, being narrow and placed behind the ship...

It's like a Police officer learning to shoot.
He wil learn to aim for the largest target, the human trunk, and not aim for the smallest and narrowest parts (the linbs).
Same thing for ship combat:
Aim for the main hull, and not the hard-to-hit, small outline nacelles or pylons...

[Mike DiCenso]

That is not necessarily proof that the newer starships do not have aux cons

That is what I meant.
In the newer series, like TNG or Voyager, people can take over the ship from Engineering, and we know for a fact that the E-D has a battle bridge (Encounter at Farpoint).

I don't believe we've ever heard it established if the E-D or any other Galaxy class starship can be controlled from the battle bridge while the saucer and stardrive are still connected.

The biggest problems with ST ships is not their bridge, but the nacelles. They're too exposed and too easily severed.

Yet, out of all the encounters, we rarely see Nacelles be severed or destroyed outright.
We have a few examples (ST II, a few ships in DS9), but it is a rare occurence when you count all the ship battles we've seen.
Which leads me to believe they are not the weakness a lot of people think they are...

There actually quite a few examples when you look at the over all history of Trek from ST:ENT all the way to VOY. Even TOS in "The Doomsday Machine", specifically shows damage to the Constellation's warp nacelles, and mention is made of damage to the Enterprise's warp drive.
-Mike

[Cocytus]

The Galaxy class ("Generations": Port nacelle hit by the Duras' BoP. "The Chase": Hit by Cardassians, albeit consensually. "Darmok": Same nacelle hit by Tamarians. "Cause and Effect": Struck by the Bozeman. "The Jem'Hadar": Port nacelle hit by battlebug)

The Mirada class (ST2, two in "Sacrifice of Angels": the Sitak, just before its destruction, and an unnamed ship in the opening shots of the battle.)

The Excelsior class ("Tears of the Prophets": Valley Forge gets the starboard nacelle cut in half by a Cardassian weapon platform.)

The Defiant class (STFC: Hit several times by the Borg cube.)

All examples of direct hits to nacelles that resulted in crippling damage. I've never seen an actual nacelle pylon severed, though nacelles have certainly been detached from them. It's interesting that the Galaxy class should have so many hits since it's nacelles aren't as prominent as those of, say, the Excelsior or Sovereign classes. The huge saucer obscures them from many angles. But then again, they dip down below the saucer, making the Galaxy's nacelles especially vulnerable to the types of hits they frequently sustain i.e. from underneath the ship, whether from in front or behind. Add to that the fact that they're massive and bulky, as opposed to the slender Excelsior nacelles.

All that said, however, the maneuverability of most starship classes more than makes up for this apparent weakness. And besides, as I mentioned earlier, Star Wars engines are in even worse positions. They're just as exposed, and the capital ships are nowhere near as nimble.

Mike, can you point me to a specific example where Voyager's nacelles are hit? I'm sure there is one, but I can't remember.

[Mike DiCenso]

Mike, can you point me to a specific example where Voyager's nacelles are hit? I'm sure there is one, but I can't remember.

In "Equinox, Part II", the USS Equinox has a nacelle taken out by Voyager.

For ST:ENT, in "Twilight", the Intrepid gets one of her warp nacelles severed off by Xindi ships.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

The Galaxy class ("Generations": Port nacelle hit by the Duras' BoP. "The Chase": Hit by Cardassians, albeit consensually. "Darmok": Same nacelle hit by Tamarians. "Cause and Effect": Struck by the Bozeman. "The Jem'Hadar": Port nacelle hit by battlebug)

The Mirada class (ST2, two in "Sacrifice of Angels": the Sitak, just before its destruction, and an unnamed ship in the opening shots of the battle.)

The Excelsior class ("Tears of the Prophets": Valley Forge gets the starboard nacelle cut in half by a Cardassian weapon platform.)

The Defiant class (STFC: Hit several times by the Borg cube.)

All examples of direct hits to nacelles that resulted in crippling damage.

This is, what, 10 examples out of dozens of battles?
That's not a big proportion.
As you say, Trek vessels are maneuverable, so the pylons and nacelles are tough to hit, and also the fact that it is easier to hit the main parts of the ship then the nacelles.

And most of the times, when we see a nacelle hit, it's as hard to destroy as any other parts of the ship.

[Cocytus]

Mike, can you point me to a specific example where Voyager's nacelles are hit? I'm sure there is one, but I can't remember.

In "Equinox, Part II", the USS Equinox has a nacelle taken out by Voyager.

For ST:ENT, in "Twilight", the Intrepid gets one of her warp nacelles severed off by Xindi ships.
-Mike

No, I knew of the Equinox. I meant one where Voyager itself gets the nacelles hit. The only instances of serious damage to Voyager's nacelles I can recall are "Timeless" and "Investigations," one a crash and the other internal sabotage.

This is what, 10 examples out of dozens of battles?
That's not a big proportion.

No it isn't. But it does show that direct hits to nacelles result in serious damage more readily than hits to other areas of the ship, even if the nacelles themselves aren't destroyed outright. In both SoA Miranda cases, the hits resulted in plasma leakage, which is always a problem. The Valley Forge was moving right along until the nacelle hit sent it into a uncontrolled roll. The subsequent through-and-through to the saucer was bad, sure, but the nacelle hit was what crippled the ship. Look at the USS Galaxy from the same battle. She suffers ostensibly serious damage to the engineering section and saucer, but continues fighting.

The impact to the E-D's nacelle in "Cause and Effect" was instantly catastrophic. I find it hard to imagine the ship would have suffered as much had the Bozeman plowed into the saucer.

The nacelles are a weakness simply because they're such a crucial component of the ship's energy systems. The danger of them being severed is quite remote, since we've only ever seen it happen once. The danger of them being destroyed outright is likewise not that great, since all the nacelle hits we see damage, but don't completely destroy the ship's nacelles.

But a good hit landing on a nacelle can impart serious damage to a starship even if the damage to the nacelle itself is ostensibly minimal. The E-D was at the mercy of the Tamarians after a few exchanges, and the nacelle itself wasn't in bad shape. I am NOT saying that all hits to nacelles will result in serious damage (the Equinox goes right on fighing after the port nacelle is hit) but that the chances of a ship suffering critical damage ARE increased if an attacker targets the nacelles.

That said, it appears the Galaxy's nacelles are easier to hit than other ships', which isn't surprising given that the Galaxy is the least maneuverable ship class, and has the largest nacelles of any ship. In any event, in a versus situation, I'd expect a Federation starship to deal crippling engine damage to a Star Wars ship long before the SW ship landed a hit on a nacelle.

The nacelles are only a tactical weakness when dealing with smaller, more manueverable ships (battlebugs, birds-of-prey, etc.) or ships with comparable targeting abilities (Tamarian ship, borg ship, Voyager) Certainly the SW side's harping on the nacelles as a weakness is laughable given the hideously poor accuracy of Star Wars capital ships. The only real threat I could imagine is from fighters going after the nacelles with torpedoes, and even then they'd have to send a damn TON of them, since the phasers would shred entire wings of X-Wings, Y-Wings, what have you before they ever got close enough.

[Praeothmin]

The nacelles are a weakness simply because they're such a crucial component of the ship's energy systems. The danger of them being severed is quite remote, since we've only ever seen it happen once. The danger of them being destroyed outright is likewise not that great, since all the nacelle hits we see damage, but don't completely destroy the ship's nacelles.

But a good hit landing on a nacelle can impart serious damage to a starship even if the damage to the nacelle itself is ostensibly minimal.

I agree, what I mean is just that, since the nacelles are so hard to target and hit, they're not as big a detriment to a ship as we would think.

Although, the Feds probably realized this because the newer ships, apart from the Sovereign, have smaller nacelles and these are placed closer to the main hull, when not enclosed within the main hull (Intrepids, Steamrunners, defiants, Prometheus, etc...).

[2046]

It can be dangerous to attempt to assess the damage to a vessel or vessel component by exterior appearance of the targeted vessel.

1. "LAFORGE: Slow playback. Display engine logs and power data of both vessels. Now watch what happens at zero nine five four three three on the clock. The scout has sustained engine damage, forcing him to slow to point six one five impulse power. The warship should overtake him, but it doesn't. Now, just two point six seconds later, the warbird slows to precisely the same speed. Three times, three speed fluctuations. The warship kept its distance every time. I don't think they wanted to catch up.
CRUSHER: And yet they fired at the scout ship. They could have killed him.
DATA: Not necessarily, Doctor. The Romulans have the same capability to direct the impact of their weapons as we do.
PICARD: Is there a possibility the wound could be self-inflicted?
CRUSHER: They're very bad burns. I hardly think
PICARD: A possibility.
(She nods) "

Specific internals can be damaged with weapons fire without having to cut through the exterior of the ship and hit them directly.

2. Cutting through armor with a laser might allow you to create catastrophic damage under the skin while only creating a small hole at the surface.

3. (Don't tell anybody, but earlier shows didn't have special effects capabilities that were nearly as good, which is why Voyager was shiny and new every episode.

This also means that unless they'd made stock footage of a busted nacelle and reused it frequently a la TOS torpedo hits on the saucer . . . which would've been considered sucky . . . they just couldn't show real smackdown damage. The only other alternative would've been the "paint it black" crap from "Timescape"[TNG6].)

[Praeothmin]

Specific internals can be damaged with weapons fire without having to cut through the exterior of the ship and hit them directly.

I very much doubt that's what this scene meant.
The more probable explanation is that they can target specific systems (such as engines power supplies), but I doubt that they bypass the armor at all.
For instance, their sensor sweep shows them the location of the power source of the engines.
They target the external area, and damge that area repeatedly.
The repeated impacts can eventually destroy important components that will create engine damage.

Cutting through armor with a laser might allow you to create catastrophic damage under the skin while only creating a small hole at the surface.

That would be more logical.

[Mike DiCenso]

The nacelle strike on the USS Odyssey by the a JH attack ship in "The Jem'Hadar" is a single bolt that appears to punch through the nacelle's housing, and then cause some kind of catastropic damage on the inside, which results in the grill panels being blown outward as seen here in this screencap from Trekcore:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ar_271.jpg

Remember to cut and past that.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

The nacelle strike on the USS Odyssey by the a JH attack ship in "The Jem'Hadar" is a single bolt that appears to punch through the nacelle's housing, and then cause some kind of catastropic damage on the inside, which results in the grill panels being blown outward as seen here in this screencap from Trekcore:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ar_271.jpg

Remember to cut and past that.
-Mike

"Trekkies for Obama" on Trekcore?