Site devoted to clone, droid numbers

[Mith]

If people are ticking because of the Kaminoans using the term unit... well, first, they're an isolated species, so they're probably going to have "an opinion" about aliens.
Secondly, the term unit I think serves to really deshumanize the clones, as said by someone else.

True, although this would mean that the Republic likely wasn't fielding more than two million clone troopers at some point, although this isn't too off. Core Worlds would reasonably protect themselves in addition to the Clone Soldiers, who would be seen as elite soldiers. And with only about 4,000 Core Worlds (which is a higher estimation than the Star Wars wiki gives, which is about 2,500 or so), and at least 700 of them turning to CIS, I could see this being a reasonable fight.

[Mr. Oragahn]

This is the same galaxy that is shaped by the acts of a very few. Lucas seems to like the stories to all verge onto a few individuals, and tries not to dilute them.
That's the galaxy where, in the EU, a single squadron makes night and day.

[Mike DiCenso]

To be fair, the same thing often happens in Star Trek, where we see the actions of a few individuals are what saves the day.

For example, the V'Ger crisis in ST:TMP, or any story where the Enterprise is the only ship in the sector. In TNG you have variously "Yesterday's Enterprise", or more famously, "The Best of Both Worlds, Parts I & II". In Voyager it was episodes like "Endgame", or in DS9 it was "Sacrifice of Angels". In ST:ENT, the NX-01 is the lone starship that can save the day through most of the third season Xindi story arc.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Seems unlikely, the major leaders of the CIS were on that planet. If I was the Jedi Council or the Republic Senate, I'd send everything I had at them, rather than give the enemy time to escape.

Well, for starters, since I haven't seen the calculations that lead to the
200 000 clones at Geonosis, how do we know there were 200 000 clones at Geonosis?
And why would the Jedi council bring in more forces then necessary?
If, for example, they estimated the forces at Geonosis at 100 000, then bringing "only" 200 000 clones would seem sufficient, considering how weak in inefficient the Battledroids are.

th

at's a strange thing for the numbers to be identical, double so when unit can mean individual person or thing.

Again, how are we sure there were 200 000 clones there?

[Mith]

Well, for starters, since I haven't seen the calculations that lead to the
200 000 clones at Geonosis, how do we know there were 200 000 clones at Geonosis?
And why would the Jedi council bring in more forces then necessary?
If, for example, they estimated the forces at Geonosis at 100 000, then bringing "only" 200 000 clones would seem sufficient, considering how weak in inefficient the Battledroids are.

Well, let's see, I have 200,000 soldiers, and I know that the major leaders of a seperatist movment are on a planet protected by Trad Federation droids, which were able to amass hundreds on the surface of Naboo, and would likely have a greater number on their own turf, as well as defensive positions. In fact, this is exactly what they were told:

OBI-WAN: (V.O.) The Trade Federation is to take taking
delivery of a droid army here and it is clear that Viceroy
Gunray...

INTERIOR: COCKPIT, NABOO STARSHIP - DAY

ANAKIN and PADMÉ continue to listen.

OBI-WAN: (V.O.) ...is behind the assassination attempts on
Senator Amidala.

INTERIOR: JEDI COUNCIL ROOM - DAY

The Council members continue to listen to OBI-WAN.

OBI-WAN: (V.O.) The Commerce Guilds and Corporate Alliance
have both pledged their armies to Count Dooku and are
forming an... Wait!... Wait!!

You have two other large coperate forces, each likely with their own droids and servants, not to mention the inhabitants, all of which have offered their services to the an enemy that knows your weakness. Only the worlds greatest fool would not take every man he had to stop and crush the traitors before they came to real power, which is in fact, part of the reason why they attacked. The Jedi Council was there to try and offer a peaceful way out, and failing this, rescue the hostages and escape. This failed, but then the clones arrived and immediately started attacking.

Again, how are we sure there were 200 000 clones there?

I believed someone mentioned the numbers being repeated, but then agian, even if they weren't, there is no reason why the Republic would not send as much soldiers as they could possibly send. To do otherwise is incredibly stupid.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I believed someone mentioned the numbers being repeated, but then agian, even if they weren't, there is no reason why the Republic would not send as much soldiers as they could possibly send. To do otherwise is incredibly stupid.

Stupid like unloading whole legions on open plains against droids of various sizes and power? :)

[Mith]

I believed someone mentioned the numbers being repeated, but then agian, even if they weren't, there is no reason why the Republic would not send as much soldiers as they could possibly send. To do otherwise is incredibly stupid.

Stupid like unloading whole legions on open plains against droids of various sizes and power? :)

Touche.

[Mr. Oragahn]

SDN people keep an eye on this topic, the author of the page linked to in the OP (Ender) said he was continuing writing it down, and there's apparently been some evolution and lots of fuss at TFN on this topic.

There's been this blog post as well, at the center of the debate.

This EU scan reveals that the Republic counted 100,000 inhabited worlds.

[2046]

What the hell is this "a unit is not a clone" crap springing up again?

Let's put that wanker myth to bed again right here.

AotC Script:

"Two hundred thousand units are ready, with another million well on the way."

AotC Script:

"Those items you saw on the parade ground were started ten years ago, when Sifo-Dyas first placed the order, and they're already mature."

AotC Novelization, Ch. 15

The units you will soon see on the parade ground we started ten years ago, when Sifo-Dyas first placed the order, and they're already mature and quite ready for duty."

[...]

The callousness of it all struck Obi-Wan profoundly. Units. Final product. These were living beings they were talking about. Living, breathing, and thinking. To create clones for such a singular purpose, under such control, even stealing half their childhood for efficiency, assaulted his sense of right and wrong, and the fact that a Jedi Master had begun all of this was almost too much to digest.

AotC Novelization, Ch. 16:

"Yes, Master," Obi-Wan said. "Prime Minister Lama Su has informed me that the first battalion of clone troopers are ready for delivery. He also wanted me to remind you that if we require more--and they've another million well on the way to completion--it will take more time to grow them."

"A million clone warriors?" Mace Windu asked in disbelief.

"Yes, Master. They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clone army almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?"

(( Bolding mine on Windu's words. ))

[Mr. Oragahn]

AotC Script:

"Two hundred thousand units are ready, with another million well on the way."

This was interesting as, it was the number of clones used at Geonosis, roughly, as per the EU book ITW, co-written by Saxton if I'm correct, or at least largely influenced in its details by Saxton.

AotC Script:

"Those items you saw on the parade ground were started ten years ago, when Sifo-Dyas first placed the order, and they're already mature."

This would only prove that the Kaminoans talk about clones as items. It's indeed hard to believe they'd be refering military structural units as items.
It's good to keep in the back of the mind for further quotes.

That said, it's the script, I'm not absolutely certain about the validity of scripts unless the words are spoken. That's a whole topic to deal with here.

AotC Novelization, Ch. 15

The units you will soon see on the parade ground we started ten years ago, when Sifo-Dyas first placed the order, and they're already mature and quite ready for duty."

If unit = commando or any form of military group, then it would mean those groups you see before your eyes are mature. It's still acceptable.

[...]
The callousness of it all struck Obi-Wan profoundly. Units. Final product. These were living beings they were talking about. Living, breathing, and thinking. To create clones for such a singular purpose, under such control, even stealing half their childhood for efficiency, assaulted his sense of right and wrong, and the fact that a Jedi Master had begun all of this was almost too much to digest.

Here, I can see how they'd understand it differently, where the "living beings" part spun to fit the "unit = commando" claim. However it's far fetched, because in the most obvious way, "living beings" would most directly refer to the words "units" and "final product", as each unit and product is a living being, instead of thinking each commando is a living being.

But then they'd argue and say that there's not necessarily such a direct correlation and would pretend that "living beings", with an s precisely, would refer to the groups of clones in general. It would be assumed that "living beings" would be describing the yet unspoken clones composing each unit, like: we have one unit, one final product, and each one of them comprises of living beings. However, if unit has been defined as a group of clones, then the "living being" part in the sentence doesn't have anything to be opposed to.

I'd think it's easier to understand that "living beings" is meant to oppose the deshumanization of the unit/product terminology, on a case by case. If you removed the s, you'd get each unit is a living being, and I think that's the most simple and intuitive explanation, notably because you couldn't do that if an unit equalled a group. If you removed the s from units, the "living beings" would still be forced to keep it.
But it's not totally flawed, as "living beings" keeping the s in a sentence which would have started with "each unit" or "an unit", instead of "units", could have still been followed by a general qualificative such as "living beings".

But the best is certainly below.

AotC Novelization, Ch. 16:

"Yes, Master," Obi-Wan said. "Prime Minister Lama Su has informed me that the first battalion of clone troopers are ready for delivery. He also wanted me to remind you that if we require more--and they've another million well on the way to completion--it will take more time to grow them."

Obviously, this can absolutely not mean another million battalions. So this other million of clones would be soon ready to complete the former million.

"A million clone warriors?" Mace Windu asked in disbelief.

"Yes, Master. They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for the clone army almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?"

(( Bolding mine on Windu's words. ))

Although Windu didn't utter these words in the film, this part of the book would clearly and firmly establish the low million clone warriors figure.

The whole question is how fast the Kaminoans were putting them out. That's the point. This is only the beginning, and they've been doing them for ten years.
What we know is the rate at which they release them. We don't know, however, how many clones they can produce at the same time.
Please consider how fast they could release one million, and then another million.

Dooku's line in SWCW comes later, at a time which would matter a lot chronologically speaking.
What would matter would be how many clones Dooky thought the Republic had, or was Dooku even saying the truth.

[Who is like God arbour]

The problem they have, is, that they are trapped in their inflated EU, in which the Star Wars Galaxy is a) much bigger than it is in the movies and b) the Republic is already covering nearly the whole galaxy with only a few uncharted small regions.

Their arguments, that a small army wouldn't make sense in a galaxy consisting of 400 billion stars from which 200 billion could support live while on 20 billion of those life indeed has developed, while sentient life developed on 20 million planets, makes sense and I agree, that an army for such space has to be much much bigger.

But the fact is, that such a size is not only not supported by the movies, but partly outright contradicted. Already the first three movies (Ep. 4, 5 , 6) are making only sense with a small galaxy and thus, an army has not to be as big as they are thinking.

[Jedi Master Spock]

This EU scan reveals that the Republic counted 100,000 inhabited worlds.

Perfectly tied in with the hundred thousand line in TPM.

You said there was some fuss at TFN. If someone raises something really worth reading, do feel free to message me a link or post about it.

[Mr. Oragahn]

This EU scan reveals that the Republic counted 100,000 inhabited worlds.

Perfectly tied in with the hundred thousand line in TPM.

You said there was some fuss at TFN. If someone raises something really worth reading, do feel free to message me a link or post about it.

Someone I know pointed me to the scan, a good find. As for the TFN stuff, I didn't check the thread, I just read the reports at SDN. Apparently it was a hot debate between the defenders of the million clones and those who thought there were much much more.

That said, again, the numbers obtained from the AOTC book only refer to the very beginning of the war. We don't know the number and production capacity of the cloning centers on Kamino.

[Jedi Master Spock]

What the hell is this "a unit is not a clone" crap springing up again?

Found it. p46 of the SDN thread here Ender digs up the New Essential Guide to Droids and proceeds to make a high-spin interpretation. It's being considered fresh evidence contradicting Traviss's clone figures, although it only discusses droids. Here's his complete post:

The New Essential Guide to Droids is written in universe, but it is post NJO and reveals a number of Lord Sidious' secrets, indicating that by this time all has been declassified.

NEGtD, Introduction, page 10 wrote:
...during the clone Wars, the Geonosian workers of Baktoid Combat Automata built one of the largest mechanical armies ever seen

Speaks for itself

NEGtD, A Short History of Droids, page 16 wrote:
The Seperatists fielded a military made up almost exclusively of droids. The sheer number and variety of Seperatist war droids was unprecedented in galactic history. Droids dominated water, land, air, and outer space in forms such as the manta droid subfighter, the dwarf spider droid, the HMP droid gunship, and the vulture droid starfighter.

That the army was almost exclusively droids eliminates the idea the conscripts made up most of the fighting forces on both sides.

NEGtD, Major Manufacturers, page 17 wrote:
Of the millions of droid manufacturing plants in the galaxy, the two lagest are Mechis III and Telti, which together produce a sizable percentage of all new automata. Both locations are entire worlds covered with sprawlingconstruction facilities and fully automated assembly lines; any sentient interaction in the fabrication process otehr than the most minimal supervision is unnecessary and counterproductive.

Millions of factories in the galaxy. As in, between 2,000,000 and 999,999,999. That the Confederacy would control a sizable share of them is far more likely then the idea that they had so few that 47 factories serve as a representative sample. That's not even counting the "mechworlds", of which the largest were Mechis III and Telti.

NEGtD, Major Manufacturers - Baktoid Combat Automata, page 17 wrote:
No longer in existance, Baktoid Combat Automata (a sister company to Baktoid Armor Workshop) cranked out innumerable droids for the Trade Federation and the Confederacy of Independent Systems in the decade and a half leading up to the conclusion of the Clone Wars. As a member of the Techno Union, Baktoid had access to the galaxies best equipment, and its factories on Geonosis and hundreds of other worlds could mass-produce battle droids in uncountable numbers.

Baktoid alone had hundreds of factories, to say nothing of the other compaines that made up the Techno Union and other factions. And they were building constantly for 15 years. Finally, terms such as "inumerable" and "uncountable" hardly mesh with "100 million".

NEGtD, Major Manufacturers - Techno Union, page 21 wrote:
Prior to the rise of the Empire, the Tecnho Union was the galaxy's greatest conglomeration of high-tech manufacturers, with members including Baktoid Combat Automata. Headed by foreman Wat Tambor, the Techno Union controlled dozens of "mechworlds," from Foundary to Metalorn, that were dominated by smoke, fire, and machinery. Anakin Skywalker killed Wat Tambor on Mustafar, and Imperial officials nationalized the Techno Union soon after.

The Techno Union had "dozens", as in at least 24, planets covered in factories. That's an insane production capacity. And it doesn't even count the independent factories.

NEGtD, Class Four Droids, page 73 wrote:
Once ubiquitous on worlds belonging to the Confederacy of Independent Systems, battle droids (also called war droids or combat droids) practically disappeared after the rise of the Empire.

They were prolific enough that they were everywhere on the worlds controlled by the Confederacy. As the Commerce Guild alone had millions of worlds (see below), and 100 things on a world is anything but ubiquitous, Odds has a real hard time fitting into continuity.

NEGtD, B2 Super Battle Droid, page 81 wrote:
During the Clone Wars, super battle droids became the face of the Confederacy of Independent Systems on thousands of worlds, from Ando to Vandos.
Again, the Confederacy deployed these things in defense of their worlds so liberally it isn't funny.

NEGtD, B3 Ultra Battle Droid, page 83 wrote:
The new ultra battle droid was huge and expensive, Baktoid entertained no illusions about the droid being deployed in numberless hordes, like the B1 and B2, but the company hoped to add the selectively as heavy hitters to the arsenel of every Seperatist commander

Again supports the notion presented in "Lord of War" that the sheer number of droids available is insane.

NEGtD, Chameleon Droid, page 91 wrote:
The greedy Commerce Guild had its fingers in millions of mining operations across the galaxy, and constantly hungered for new mineral strikes.

We've seen from Bespin and Jabiim that a mining opeation is usually world wide run from a single operations center, not each and every mine. So that's millions of worlds for the Commerce Guidl alone, to say nothing of the other factions and the independents.

NEGtD, Colicoild Annihilator Droid, page 93 wrote:
While assault ships shelled Colla IV's surface with a turbolaser bombardment, four platoons of troopers advanced on the shielded factory. When the clones reached the innermost wall, an annihilator droid rose up and shredded a duracrete barrier with its laser cannons, offering the clones no cover and killing most of the landing force within minutes. The surviving clones retreated.
...
"We don't know what it was, sir, but it took out three platoons. We can't let the Colicoids get these things offplanet." -ARC trooper Stec, after a failed strike at Colla IV

4 platoons of ARC troopers deployed as a spec ops mission get killed by a single droid. Testament to the droid, but also raises the issue of how 96 ARCs out of 128 can die if there are only 100 ARCs total. Unless there are more then 100 ARCs total and only 100 of the Alpha series.

NEGtD, Crab Droid, page 87 wrote:
At the end of the Clone Wars, the Republic siezed tens of thousands of crab droids from a Techno Union factory on Tar Morden.

This is during the outer rim sieges, so they weren't being deployed elsehwere. And it says they siezed, so they were finished, not half complete. That means that a single factory had 20,000+ of one kind of droid (ignoring all the other kinds of droids that might have been present as well) defending it. And there are millions of factories out there. That's tens of billions of droids only playing defense.

What's real fun is the math. We see in AotC that droids are built at a rate of ~1 per sec. There are 3 lines in a factory. Lets say a factory is 1 square kilometer (a gross overestimate). 24 worlds with Earth sized diameter plus 2 million other factories each with 3 lines producing at that rate for 15 years yields a total of 17.67 quintillion droids. Which (depending on casualties, logistics, and naval crewing requirements) matches the numbers in Lord of War, Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic, and the Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross Sections.

As usual, maximal interpretations at every turn. He takes a quote about there being millions of droid factories in the galaxy, and assumes that means there are several million battle droid factories in the CIS.

Apparently there's 47 factories listed for the CIS, or something, seeing as he's spinning that, but didn't quote it. "Millions of mining operations" translates, to him, as millions of planets being exploited by the CIS to fuel its war engine.

Curiously, he seems not to notice the quote that he posted about B2 battledroids being deployed to mere thousands of worlds over the course of the Clone Wars. At this point, it does look like they're grasping at straws on SDN.

And yes, if anyone's counting, or actually read the Republic Commando books, which Ender is apparently allergic to, there are indeed many more ARCs than Alpha ARCs. Alphas were basically a prototype model for the subsequent ARC batches. Hence the distinct designation.

[2046]

What the hell is this "a unit is not a clone" crap springing up again?

Found it. p46 of the SDN thread here Ender digs up the New Essential Guide to Droids and proceeds to make a high-spin interpretation. It's being considered fresh evidence contradicting Traviss's clone figures, although it only discusses droids.

I feel like an ass for saying this, given that you expended effort on the post, but . . . why was I supposed to care and/or be surprised about the products of some EU-phile SDN dude's autoerotic behavior? Such mental man-goo is par for the course over there.

Seriously, though, my only source of alarm was seeing folks seeming to ponder it here.

At this point, it does look like they're grasping at straws on SDN.

Really? Astonishing!