X Miranda's vs an ISD

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Praeothmin
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Post by Praeothmin » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:33 pm

Roondar wrote:All in all a bit of an off-topic thing, because I don't feel a single Miranda can defeat an ISD either ;)
Why you... :)
Like Cocytus my 'quarrel' was basically the rather blunt denial that ST ships even had the capability that irked me. This happens far to often in VS debates where Star Trek is one of the sides and so I tend to react to that.
What irked me is that it seemed that we were doing what most Warsies do, which is ony take the highest example in this situation (ranges), while ignoring the other cases where range was low.

I prefer when all is considered, and hate when the majority of examples are ignored for the highest example (like only using the ICS firepower figures and ignoring the movie examples).

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Post by Cocytus » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:12 am

Well, the problem with the ICS is the disconnect between what it states and what the higher canon shows. We all know this, of course.

But when it comes to examples like "The Wounded," that's every bit as canon as examples from DS9 fleet battles. One can pick the SW films over the ICS because that's what Lucasfilm's canon hierarchy says. One cannot simply pick one example of ST canon and overrule another equally valid example of ST canon with it.

So all canon must be acknowledged and considered. And here we get into my personal view of how this debate should work. Our task is to build a framework within which all examples of canon may be treated equally. Oftentimes, that requires a measure of assumption. "Why can they do such and such here and not there." "Why does a character say this when the visuals show this." Is the character simply wrong? Do visuals override statements? Personally, I feel they must all be considered equally. Thus, when two examples are seemingly contradictory, that is where own our knowledge and deductory logic come in. We can extrapolate why, based on canon precedent, something is possible at one point and seemingly not possible at another. Or why a character or starship would prefer to do something here and something else over there. That's what makes this debate so interesting for me. It's a challenge to try and build a framework in which all the evidence is acknowledged and considered.

So I acknowledged the DS9 examples, and the "The Wounded" example, and then tried to reconcile them with the hypothesis that fleet engagements require a tightly knit web of supporting fire, necessitating ships to maintain a close distance. That may not be perfect, and I'd be more than willing to listen to any other possibilities. (provided of course they're well reasoned and politely presented) That's what makes this debate so much FUN.

In any event, I don't think a single Miranda could defeat an ISD either. It may have advantages in range, speed and maneuverability, but it's an aged vessel that doesn't stand up well to a concentrated medium- to close-range pounding, which is exactly what an ISD is designed to deliver. It could hold off and avoid the ISD's fire, but in all honesty I doubt it could do much damage before exhausting its weapons.

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Post by 2046 » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:36 am

Cocytus wrote:So all canon must be acknowledged and considered. And here we get into my personal view of how this debate should work. Our task is to build a framework within which all examples of canon may be treated equally. Oftentimes, that requires a measure of assumption. "Why can they do such and such here and not there." "Why does a character say this when the visuals show this." Is the character simply wrong? Do visuals override statements? Personally, I feel they must all be considered equally. Thus, when two examples are seemingly contradictory, that is where own our knowledge and deductory logic come in. We can extrapolate why, based on canon precedent, something is possible at one point and seemingly not possible at another. Or why a character or starship would prefer to do something here and something else over there. That's what makes this debate so interesting for me. It's a challenge to try and build a framework in which all the evidence is acknowledged and considered.
Very well said.
So I acknowledged the DS9 examples, and the "The Wounded" example, and then tried to reconcile them with the hypothesis that fleet engagements require a tightly knit web of supporting fire, necessitating ships to maintain a close distance. That may not be perfect, and I'd be more than willing to listen to any other possibilities. (provided of course they're well reasoned and politely presented) That's what makes this debate so much FUN.
So why would ship-to-ship engagements (i.e. single combatants) ever feature close ranges?

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Post by Cocytus » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:10 am

Well, the examples I cited earlier of the Wrath of Khan, Nemesis and Equinox battles featured ships which were attempting to disable other ships by precisely targeting certain areas. Janeway was going after Ransom's weapons array. The Scimitar was targeting the Enterprise's weapons and shields. The Reliant was going after that specific spot on the E-As Engineering section. Presumably such precise targeting necessitates being at close range. Maxwell cared little about targeting subsystems. He simply wanted to destroy the Cardassian ship which had the ability to "dismantle the Phoenix's shields."

Of course, the human element must play in at some point. So psychological intimidation should also be a factor. Your quarry will be more intimidated if they can actually see your ship firing at them. Certainly this was a factor in the three battles I mentioned. "I wanted you to know first who it was who had beaten you," and "He wants to look me in the eye."

Let's see. The Ferengi capture the E-D with stolen birds-of-prey in "Rascals." (capture=disable subsystems=close range) In "Peak Performance," the Ferengi again wanted to disable the Enterprise because they thought she was fighting the Hathaway over something valuable.

For non-Federation ships, the battlebugs in "TDiC" were hiding in the Omarion Nebula. Nebulas always equal decreased weapons range. So it's easy to consider that in relation to "The Search" where O'Brien states that 100,000 km is within their weapons range. Similarly, one of the first shots to strike the Odyssey is to the port nacelle, dealing a precise, crippling blow, which may explain why they closed range before opening fire.

All those examples concern ships which weren't already nose to nose before firing started. (And you said ship-to-ship, 2046, so I didn't include "Call to Arms." Even though we know the fighters to have long ranges, we've never seen a battlecruiser fight at anything other than spitball range. Maybe their range really is that short. Since the battlecruiser was the lead ship, it was determining the range at which the battle would be fought. No one else in the fleet was going to shoot, even if they had the ability, before the command ship did.)

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:42 am

Cocytus wrote:
All those examples concern ships which weren't already nose to nose before firing started. (And you said ship-to-ship, 2046, so I didn't include "Call to Arms." Even though we know the fighters to have long ranges, we've never seen a battlecruiser fight at anything other than spitball range. Maybe their range really is that short. Since the battlecruiser was the lead ship, it was determining the range at which the battle would be fought. No one else in the fleet was going to shoot, even if they had the ability, before the command ship did.)
In DS9's "The Dogs of War", a battleship is shown participating in the bombardment of 18 rebel Cardassian bases, which indicates that ranges of hundreds of km are possible at the very least for such types of Dominion capital ships. In the "Valiant" (DS9, Season 6), as you may recall, the fight took place at close range because the Valiant had to guide it's torpedoes manually at the battleship's antimatter storage system. In order for it to work, the had to get within three hundred meters of the target point:

NOG
Well, sir... In order to rig a
torpedo to yield a delta-radiation
burst I'll have to remove most of
the guidance systems. We'll have
to target it manually.

FARRIS
We've trained for that
possibility. It shouldn't be a
problem.

NOG
We'll also have to get very close
to the target.

WATTERS
How close?


NOG
(hesitates)
Within three hundred meters.



So again, another reason for close-range combat to occur.
-Mike

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Post by 2046 » Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:55 am

Okay, let's play the brainstormy stuff here. Since my idea for why short-range battles happen seems to have been largely pooh-poohed, hopefully a superior one is available.

One thing worth noting is that, unless I'm mistaken, battles are usually long range or short range, with little in-between. For instance, the aforementioned "Equinox" 30,000km phaser shot was while the ship was on her way to spitball range, as seen later.
Cocytus wrote:Well, the examples I cited earlier of the Wrath of Khan, Nemesis and Equinox battles featured ships which were attempting to disable other ships by precisely targeting certain areas. Janeway was going after Ransom's weapons array. The Scimitar was targeting the Enterprise's weapons and shields. The Reliant was going after that specific spot on the E-As Engineering section. Presumably such precise targeting necessitates being at close range. Maxwell cared little about targeting subsystems. He simply wanted to destroy the Cardassian ship which had the ability to "dismantle the Phoenix's shields."
Okay, but what of the 90,000km torp shot from "The Changeling"[TOS2] against a target smaller than a man? Or the low-yield orbital shot from "Alliances"[VOY2]?

Indeed, any long-range torp shot could be said to run counter to that idea. However, that does leave us room to argue that phasers require such close ranges, which makes sense given their unguided nature.

However, examples like the targeting of the power core of the Equinox run counter to that.
Of course, the human element must play in at some point. So psychological intimidation should also be a factor. Your quarry will be more intimidated if they can actually see your ship firing at them.
I don't think I can get behind this one. I mean, everybody watches the other ship on the viewscreen, so it won't really matter.
Certainly this was a factor in the three battles I mentioned. "I wanted you to know first who it was who had beaten you,"
He hailed him, on the viewscreen.
and "He wants to look me in the eye."
After blowing out the viewscreen.
Let's see. The Ferengi capture the E-D with stolen birds-of-prey in "Rascals." (capture=disable subsystems=close range) In "Peak Performance," the Ferengi again wanted to disable the Enterprise because they thought she was fighting the Hathaway over something valuable.
That's actually another example of a close-range torpedo detonation being uber-dangerous . . . forgot about that.

As for the ranges, they were short in those instances (see also "Yesterday's Enterprise" from which the "Rascals" FX were lifted, which also featured a boarding desire by the alt-Klingons). The idea that this is for precision targeting is not terrible.

But going with the idea I mentioned earlier of there being few-to-no mid-range battles, not to mention the fact that boarding actions require closing to less than (or perhaps way less than) 40,000km anyway, there may be other supporting factors.
For non-Federation ships, the battlebugs in "TDiC" were hiding in the Omarion Nebula. Nebulas always equal decreased weapons range.
That one's too wispy for such, surely.

So it's easy to consider that in relation to "The Search" where O'Brien states that 100,000 km is within their weapons range. Similarly, one of the first shots to strike the Odyssey is to the port nacelle, dealing a precise, crippling blow, which may explain why they closed range before opening fire.
I never really got the impression that the Jem'Hadar were being precise against the Odyssey. If anything, they seemed to be playing a game.
(And you said ship-to-ship, 2046, so I didn't include "Call to Arms." Even though we know the fighters to have long ranges, we've never seen a battlecruiser fight at anything other than spitball range. Maybe their range really is that short. Since the battlecruiser was the lead ship, it was determining the range at which the battle would be fought. No one else in the fleet was going to shoot, even if they had the ability, before the command ship did.)
This is a very unique idea, but I don't know that it makes any sense to me.

An enormous battleship . . . a mountain of resources and crew . . . armed with short-range-only weapons? Or, in other words, a Dominion ISD but designed that way intentionally? I just can't get behind that.

As far as brainstorming goes, though, another possibility is energy weapon velocity.

As others have noted, phasers seem to always hit within a couple of seconds, no matter the range.

If we were to assume that higher velocity beams impart a higher energy cost, then long range fire would be more costly for the firing ship than short-range fire.

This might be doubly true for Dominion energy weapons, which are usually used at shorter ranges. But, it might be another factor in why some like it short.

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Post by Trinoya » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:14 am

A simple and straight forward list:

Reasons a ship goes to close range:

Accuracy: It is a lot easier to target a subsystem.

Avoiding the use of larger weapons: By closing in on an enemy you deny him his use of extremely powerful yields as he now has to worry about damaging his own ship.

Jamming Systems, and weapon effectiveness: At greater ranges, intercepting weapons and jamming them may be more effective. Potentially phasers may not be as effective as well.

Boarding Actions: Transporters have an effective 40,000km range, however one may want to get in closer to avoid their opponent moving too quickly for a transporter to beam a personnel to a specific spot ("For a moment, I felt like I was in that wall.")

Warp Strafing: At closer ranges, presumably both sides forgo engaging in a warp speed battle. Battles can be a little more organized, debris is not spread over half a solar system (and still traveling at very fast speeds).

Cover: Like it or not, battles at long ranges could start utilizing cover, such as planets, moons, and asteroids. While this can happen at shorter ranges as well, it is much easier to avoid. It would suck if every torpedo you shot at your enemy had an asteroid thrown in front of it...

I'm sure others can add to this list.

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Post by Praeothmin » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:42 am

Trinoya wrote:Avoiding the use of larger weapons: By closing in on an enemy you deny him his use of extremely powerful yields as he now has to worry about damaging his own ship.
And you also deny your most powerful weapons, which isn't that bright...
Boarding Actions: Transporters have an effective 40,000km range, however one may want to get in closer to avoid their opponent moving too quickly for a transporter to beam a personnel to a specific spot ("For a moment, I felt like I was in that wall.")
Except that in very rare cases, Shields block transporters, so as long as the enemy hasn't destroyed your shields, he cannot transport through.
Warp Strafing: At closer ranges, presumably both sides forgo engaging in a warp speed battle. Battles can be a little more organized, debris is not spread over half a solar system (and still traveling at very fast speeds).
Which could have been done quite a few times when fleets were stationary, yet was never seen.
If we believe that ships need to get closer for better accuracy, how can we believe that they could accurately target near stationary targets (compared to warp moving ones) while going faster then light?

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Post by Roondar » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:02 pm

Praeothmin wrote: Which could have been done quite a few times when fleets were stationary, yet was never seen.
If we believe that ships need to get closer for better accuracy, how can we believe that they could accurately target near stationary targets (compared to warp moving ones) while going faster then light?
Actually, Starfleet ships have shown a 100% accuracy at any range (including rather long ones) against stationary (and sometimes moving, albeit slowly) non-ship non-base objects.

It is only against other ships or bases that they miss from time to time. Stationary or not.

If Starfleet starships had trouble aiming, surely they would miss asteroids and the like as well (especially since a number of said asteroids/space objects are rather smaller and further away than some of the stationary ships they manage to miss).

But since they never do so and always in fact hit such things, it seems that mere quality of aim has very little to do with why they miss or need close ranges for combat (even when versus stationary ships/bases).

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Post by Flectarn » Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:32 pm

ECM then?

thats what always get's trotted out for poor star wars accuracy anyway.

well that and "They were trying to miss"

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Post by Praeothmin » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:19 pm

Roondar wrote:Actually, Starfleet ships have shown a 100% accuracy at any range (including rather long ones) against stationary (and sometimes moving, albeit slowly) non-ship non-base objects.
I meant shooting stationary targets while the shooting ship is at warp, not while the ship is at Sub-Light speeds...

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Post by Roondar » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:26 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Roondar wrote:Actually, Starfleet ships have shown a 100% accuracy at any range (including rather long ones) against stationary (and sometimes moving, albeit slowly) non-ship non-base objects.
I meant shooting stationary targets while the shooting ship is at warp, not while the ship is at Sub-Light speeds...
Maybe so, but the point I raised is still interesting on its own. It casts a rather different light on the whole 'why must Starfleet fight closerange' debate. Which is why I made the comment.

Besides, IIRC all warp-shooting actions, well, ever where very accurate. But then, there where so few of them.

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Post by Cocytus » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:40 pm

2046 wrote:However, examples like the targeting of the power core of the Equinox run counter to that.
Well, it may be since both vessels were already in orbit of the planet, their courses were much more predictable, and targeting was made easier.
2046 wrote:I don't think I can get behind this one.
Yeah, nor can I really. I was just going by the fact that in most instances, the default viewscreen setting seems to be a visual range depiction. Hence why people call for magnification in some circumstances.
2046 wrote:This one's too wispy for such, surely.
Who knows. It may have radiation fields which, though invisible, interfere with targeting.
2046 wrote:I never really got the impression that the Jem'Hadar were being precise against the Odyssey. If anything, they seemed to be playing a game.
Which, by its very nature, would imply precision. If you want to toy with someone, you do just enough damage to cripple and terrify them, but not enough to destroy them outright.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:18 am

2046 wrote:I never really got the impression that the Jem'Hadar were being precise against the Odyssey. If anything, they seemed to be playing a game.
Cocytus wrote: Which, by its very nature, would imply precision. If you want to toy with someone, you do just enough damage to cripple and terrify them, but not enough to destroy them outright.
The JH attack ship strike on the Odyssey's port warp nacelle was too precisely carried out to be one of mere happenstance. It's timing early in the battle effectively crippled the Odyssey's ability to effectively disengage the battle, and set her up for the final kamikaze run in the end.
-Mike

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Post by Praeothmin » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:31 am

Roondar wrote:Besides, IIRC all warp-shooting actions, well, ever where very accurate.
Yes, but they were, AFAIK, against targets that were also at Warp (other ships), or really big and hard to miss (starbases, moons, asteroids)...

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