X Miranda's vs an ISD

[Praeothmin]

the Miranda was able to evade Imperial firepower

The Miranda isn't that maneuverable.
It is more maneuverable then any ship it's size in the SW universe though, but it would still get hit a few times just by the sheer amount of shots being fired in its general direction.

This is true, but the ships had also likely taking damage before that paticular shot.

No they weren't.
The Mirandas I'm talking about are the ones in SoA where they follow the Defiant as escorts in the enemy fleet.
We see them fly around, twist and turn, and then get it by a few shots that completely destroy them.
And this is at the beginning of the fight, the Defiant hadn't even taken a shot yet.

I don't think the Tantive was going a mere "crawl", she was making good acceleration, but only at the price of not maneuvering to do evasive action against the ISD TLs.

Compared to the speed and maneuverability displayed by the Mirandas in SoA, the Tantive was indeed going at a mere "crawl"... :)

[Cocytus]

You're referring to the Majestic and the Sitak, Praeothmin. To be fair, it was not exactly the beginning of the fight. The scene where both ships are destroyed occurs after the Founder tells Odo "You cannot help any of the solids, no matter how much you may want to." But, if you observe the initial seconds of the battle proper, you'll notice the Galor that gets phasered by two Galaxies itself fired on a Miranda twice, causing an explosion in the port nacelle. So Mirandas obviously aren't terribly hardy vessels.

They are pretty maneuverable, however. I cited the example from "What You Leave Behind" a few posts back. (Were you able to find that, Mike?) They should be quite capable of evading Imperial fire at a few kilometers or so. (Then again, I've never seen an ISD hit ANYTHING reliably at a few kilometers, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.)

[2046]

Nice story Mith, but once again you do a "Warsie" and overestimate the power of the Feds and underestimate the power of an ISD.

He gave a lot over to the ISD in that the Miranda closed to within the ISD's combat range. But we both agree that other than via shot-spamming, the ISD is unlikely to hit anything, especially if the Miranda is maneuvering.

(For another shot of Miranda maneuvers, see the First Contact engagement.)

As we've seen in DS9's war angle, Mirandas are only capable of sustaining 1 or 2 hits from the Cardassians' and Dominions' weapons before being disabled.

Compare the damage the Dominion battlecruiser dealt to the Sitak and Majestic . . . something like a third of each ship blown off . . . to the damage a Constitution Class ship could deal to a Miranda 90 years prior. It's like comparing a finger-poke in the chest with a gut punch from a heavyweight boxer.

Unless you want to argue that these were down-armored Mirandas, it surely must be clear that the Dominion weapons were far, far more powerful. And yet we know that even as far back as the 2150's, Earth starships featured antimatter torpedoes . . . by all reckoning very similar to later photon torpedoes as used in the 2280's . . . capable of delivering yields some have estimated in the tens of megatons.

This of course all assumes that Imperial vessels could even hit the Miranda with its heavy guns. Given that what are presumed to be HTL shots were seen to miss between virtually immobile vessels in RotJ, it seems quite unlikely that a maneuvering starship would have to deal with any but the smaller-size weapons of the ISD.

Star Wars capital ships are also critically damaged by remarkably low-yield weapons fire, as seen in Coruscant's upper atmosphere, on Geonosis, et cetera.

It is incredibly difficult, in my estimation, to derive 'realistic' (if you'll forgive the use of the term) tactical scenarios requiring more than one Miranda to destroy a Star Destroyer in combat.

[Praeothmin]

So Mirandas obviously aren't terribly hardy vessels.

As I was saying... :)

They are pretty maneuverable, however.

Again, they are more maneuverable then any SW vessels their size, but they are not the Defiant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW-MJsMj ... re=related
The First Contact vodeo only shows them doing thight turns, but no real evasive maneuvering like the Defiant does.

But, if you observe the initial seconds of the battle proper, you'll notice the Galor that gets phasered by two Galaxies itself fired on a Miranda twice, causing an explosion in the port nacelle. So Mirandas obviously aren't terribly hardy vessels.

This is the scene you'rs talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCm70fav ... re=related
At 1:43, you see a Miranda get hit twice by a Galor, and it was down for the count.

And immediately after that, we see the two mirandas, seemingly undamaged, fly side-by-side with the Defiant, but not doing much evasive maneuvering.

But we both agree that other than via shot-spamming, the ISD is unlikely to hit anything, especially if the Miranda is maneuvering.

Well, seing as shot spamming is the SOP in SW, then the Miranda is shure to get hit.
And as we saw in SoA, and many times over, 1 or 2 shots is all that is needed to take it out.

capable of delivering yields some have estimated in the tens of megatons.

Capable, yes, but not always used at their maximum yield, judging by explosions seen.
And the fact that he had the ISD not destroy the tropedo upon first hit...
That's pushing it a bit.

You are a great fan of onscreen yields, and of using highest cannon only.
I agree.
The problem for your arguments is that using onscreen evidence only, the average GCS Firepower and the average ISD Firepower is pretty similar.
In fact, we know with great certainty that, depending on scaling of the asteroids in ESB, that an ISD's LTL and MTL have yields in the low Kilotons to the triple-digit kilotons.
Which is consistent with ST's average displayed FirePower.

So when we take into account the fact that the newer ST ships are equal to or slightly more powerful then an ISD, we cannot seriously consider an inferior, outdated ship that gets destroyed by two shots from those recent ships can be a serious threat to an ISD alone.

Star Wars capital ships are also critically damaged by remarkably low-yield weapons fire, as seen in Coruscant's upper atmosphere, on Geonosis, et cetera.

Judging by the size of some explosions seen in ST, so are ST vessels then.

It is incredibly difficult, in my estimation, to derive 'realistic' (if you'll forgive the use of the term) tactical scenarios requiring more than one Miranda to destroy a Star Destroyer in combat.

And it is completely unrealistic, in mine, to derive tactics where 1 Miranda would even be a threat tp an ISD...

[Who is like God arbour]

How can one extrapolate, how fast a Miranda class star ship will be destroyed by an ISD, with the knowledge, how fast it was destroyed in a battle with the Dominion - Cardassian Union while it is unknown, how strong the weapon were, that has hit the Miranda class star ships?

Is the fact, that one hit has destroyed the Miranda class starship to asses as a weakness of that class or that the beam was very strong?

Maybe it is both - but how strong would be an HTL bolt be compared to the weapons, that has destroyed the Miranda class star ships?

And how much more or less effective would the shields of the Miranda class star ships handle such an HTL bolt?

• • • • It's simple: One have to know the strength of the shields of a Miranda class star ship and the strength of an HTL bolt to calculate the endurance of a Miranda class star ship against an ISD, assuming, that the shields and weapons interaction are the same.
        
        The Dominion battle scenes are only usefull, if one could deduce that information from them. But, as long as the weapons strength of the ships, that have fired on the Miranda class star ships is unknown, that is impossible.
        
        Insofar, it is really illogical to say, that a Miranda class star ship could be destroyed by an ISD because it was destroyed with one single shoot by a Cardassian ship.
        
        If the weapons of the Cardassian ship would be several magnitudes stronger than the weapons of an ISD, the shields of a Miranda class star ship could resist the weapons fire from an ISD with ease. That's a simple matter of cross-multiplication.

[2046]

Well, seing as shot spamming is the SOP in SW, then the Miranda is shure to get hit.

Only if they close to within spitball range. Even 100 guns and 10 shots per second with a single degree of spread on a two-dimensional area will be nothing at 10,000 kilometers. Even if they had predictors that could accurately guess the location of the ship to somewhere in that one degree, you'd be looking at 1000 bolts every second spread across an arc of one degree of the 62,832 kilometer circumference. That would be 174.5 kilometers as the spread for those 1000 shots per second, meaning you'd have a little over five shots passing through an entire one-kilometer-wide area per second.

And that's the kindest, drop-dead generous way to calculate it. Heaven help the Imperials if we go 3-D or more accurately represent their refire rate.

And as we saw in SoA, and many times over, 1 or 2 shots is all that is needed to take it out.

We saw the SoA opening-volley Miranda with a fireball around its nacelle, but there's no evidence the ship was disabled for the purpose of continued combat in the battle.

The problem for your arguments is that using onscreen evidence only, the average GCS Firepower and the average ISD Firepower is pretty similar.
In fact, we know with great certainty that, depending on scaling of the asteroids in ESB, that an ISD's LTL and MTL have yields in the low Kilotons to the triple-digit kilotons.
Which is consistent with ST's average displayed FirePower.

Maybe if you include Enterprise in the global average, then yeah, perhaps. Of course that was 200 years earlier, meaning you'd be doing the equivalent of averaging USN naval firepower by including wooden sailing ships.

Star Wars capital ships are also critically damaged by remarkably low-yield weapons fire, as seen in Coruscant's upper atmosphere, on Geonosis, et cetera.

Judging by the size of some explosions seen in ST, so are ST vessels then.

Hardly. The only time I can recall seeing significant starship combat inside an atmosphere was "Once More Unto The Breach"[DSN7], but even then we don't really see it. We see Birds of Prey fire disruptors on an unshielded base from spitball range with sub-kiloton effect, and we also see Birds of Prey take fire from the damaged base at spitball range with no apparent effect.

The only shots that have effect against the Birds of Prey (dropping Martok's shields to 85%, which is pretty weak against a BoP anyway), we don't get to see. Of course, with the odd behavior of Trek beam weapons compared to their Star Wars counterparts, it is only with torpedoes that we would expect with certainty to see nuclear weapon style effects. (Recall, if you will, the phaser drilling incidents of TNG that lack mushroom clouds.)

We also see upper-atmosphere combat in "Equinox, Pt. II"[VOY6], but other than a phaser miss we don't see any of the action.

[Cocytus]

They are pretty maneuverable, however.

Again, they are more maneuverable then any SW vessels their size, but they are not the Defiant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW-MJsMj ... re=related
The First Contact vodeo only shows them doing thight turns, but no real evasive maneuvering like the Defiant does.

Actually, the Miranda in "What You Leave Behind" was doing just that, and as well as the Defiant did it in First Contact. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvlQmR0n7mo

[AFT]

This is the scene you'rs talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCm70fav ... re=related
At 1:43, you see a Miranda get hit twice by a Galor, and it was down for the count.

And immediately after that, we see the two mirandas, seemingly undamaged, fly side-by-side with the Defiant, but not doing much evasive maneuvering.

I’m afraid you relay too much on a YouTube clip that is obviously an edition of the episode. Did you see the actual episode? O maybe you did but forgot some key parts? The Sitak and the Majestic were not destroyed just right after the other Miranda got hit twice, after the initial charge of the Federation Fleet when we saw the Miranda and the Galors get hit, we got a scene where Dukat and Weyoun state that the minefield won’t go down for another five hours, then the scene with Odo and the female changeling, then again to the battle, the two ships are lost, the Klingons arrive and finally the Defiant got through, Sisko states that they only have three hours before the minefield go down, meaning that that part of the battle lasted at least two hours and even assuming that the Defiant was alone for more time than what was seen on screen the two Mirandas were in the battle for the best part of those two hours….And just before the Klingons arrive, the Defiant lost her aft shields while her forward shields were down to 15% and yet the ship appeared completely undamaged, mere minutes after the two ships were destroyed (actually they looked more crippled than destroyed, anyway) it seems that even if the two ships appeared undamaged is not unreasonable to say that their shields were almost gone, at the very least they were in the battle for quite some time before taking critical damage, a bit unfair to say that the ships just got into the battle and were destroyed when they were at a 100% efficiency….So, bottom line, a bad example to gauge the Miranda class endurance in battle, IMHO….Anyway, just an aclaration….I couldn’t resist to do so….

[Mike DiCenso]

(For another shot of Miranda maneuvers, see the First Contact engagement.)

What is the time index for the Miranda in that video?
-Mike

[2046]

About 30 seconds in . . . the one on the right that pops in toward the Borg ship, says "oh snap, I was just kiddin', y'all", hangs a hard left, then bugs right slam the hell outta there.

[Praeothmin]

Only if they close to within spitball range.

You mean like in most of the DS9 fights we saw?
Even though we have heard many times of ST ships having long weapons range, when we do see an engagement, it is always well within SW weapons' range as well...

Even 100 guns and 10 shots per second with a single degree of spread on a two-dimensional area will be nothing at 10,000 kilometers.

Except that, once again, we rarely, if ever, see fights happening at those ranges in ST (no more then in SW)...

We saw the SoA opening-volley Miranda with a fireball around its nacelle, but there's no evidence the ship was disabled for the purpose of continued combat in the battle.

I conceed this point.
But we do see the other two Mirandas go down right after they've been hit, although:

I’m afraid you relay too much on a YouTube clip that is obviously an edition of the episode.

So I must also conced on this point, because I don't remember how much time has passed, and how damaged those ships were before this scene...
Maybe if you include Enterprise in the global average, then yeah, perhaps. Of course that was 200 years earlier, meaning you'd be doing the equivalent of averaging USN naval firepower by including wooden sailing ships.

Really?
Because, although I haven't seen many Enterprise episodes, they seemed to be using the same type of weaponry as the more modern Trek, although a little less advanced, so no, I don't think it could be akin to comparing modern naval fleets with wooden sailing ships.
It would probably be more akin to including Vietnam War technology to modern day naval fleets (similar, only less advanced).

And no, I'm not including Enterprise in the averaging, just TNG, DS9 and Voyager...

Of course, with the odd behavior of Trek beam weapons compared to their Star Wars counterparts,

What odd behavior?
We have that odd behavior in handheld weapons, and whenever they use the Phasers as tools rather then weapons, but when Ship Phasers are used as weapons, they have the same behavior as SW weapons.
The beam (or bolt) hits, and then it explodes (witness the effects of the Pulse Phasers of the Defiant or the BoP Disruptors), just like Turbolaser hits...

starship combat inside an atmosphere

Not necessarily in an atmosphere, look at the fighting in RotJ, at the explosions' size created by Tie weapons on Rebel ships.
They were pretty bug for Starfighter weapons firing in a vacuum...
I'd say almost as big as those of the ST fighters main Phaser weapons vs Cardassian ships (although I do think that ST fighters are more powerful the SW fighters).

Insofar, it is really illogical to say, that a Miranda class star ship could be destroyed by an ISD because it was destroyed with one single shoot by a Cardassian ship.

In that case, the reverse is alos illogical because of the same reasons, and this whole thread is pointless... ;)

Actually, the Miranda in "What You Leave Behind" was doing just that, and as well as the Defiant did it in First Contact.

Had been a while seen I had seen that battle.
You're right, it is maneuvering pretty well (seen at 7:26).
But, while we've seen the Defiant pull these maneuvers very, very often, it is the only time we've seen the Miranda do it...
But I do agree that it would be a little harder to hit then I originally thought.

I’m afraid you relay too much on a YouTube clip that is obviously an edition of the episode. Did you see the actual episode? O maybe you did but forgot some key parts?

Conceeded above... :)

In light of the maneuvering issue, I have to re-evaluate my assessment, and say that perhaps 3 to 5 Mirandas could take on an ISD (again, although we don't know how damaged were the two Mirandas taken out in SoA, we also do not know if they were damaged at all, and we did see the first Miranda in the battle take great damage from only one shot).
As for the ranges, sorry 2046, but I'm not convinced.
ST space combat regularly takes place at as short ranges as SW space combat, so at these "spitball" ranges (as you say), the HTL blanketing method would work...

[Roondar]

Ah, but ISD's don't have HTL's (or in fact much at all) at their rear.

Where a Starfleet vessel is designed competently enough to have at least torpedo launchers and (usually) phaser coverage at all sides of the ship, Star Wars ships (well ISD's anyway) only ever seem to fire forward, upwards or down.

I could be wrong here, but as far as I know, there are no movie segments in which an ISD shoots to it's rear. At all.

[2046]

Only if they close to within spitball range.

You mean like in most of the DS9 fights we saw?
Even though we have heard many times of ST ships having long weapons range, when we do see an engagement, it is always well within SW weapons' range as well...

Your statement is incorrect.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSW-WeaponRange-Trek.html

Of course, with the odd behavior of Trek beam weapons compared to their Star Wars counterparts,

What odd behavior?
We have that odd behavior in handheld weapons, and whenever they use the Phasers as tools rather then weapons, but when Ship Phasers are used as weapons, they have the same behavior as SW weapons.

First off, that's a might bit circular. Second, it's wrong. While the DS9 battles did give us lots of lovely fireball blooms around strike points, most of the time other battles did not involve such effects.

Further, DS9 battles (such as Chin'toka) involved ships showing a little fireball then still having large sections of hull vaporize without any apparent local effect. I also recall a number of strikes against unshielded ships producing no fireball or other similar high-energy-expectation event, such as "Yesterday's Enterprise", "Timescape", et al.

And, returning to the main point more thoroughly, when we've seen phasers used against the ground even in extreme high-energy events (such as drilling deep into a planet), there is no nuclear-style local effect on the environment. You can try to argue that there is more of such an effect in other cases, but by doing so you ignore the full situation.

For a quickie analogy . . . imagine a big white target. Star Wars weapons can only shoot red paintballs, so you see everything that happens to the target, and the red mist around it when hit. But Trek weapons are a mix of red and white paintballs, sometimes more of one than the other. The white paintballs you can't see but for the measurable effect they have.

You're arguing that in combat Trek only shoots red paintballs, despite the fact that we know that in some high-energy cases and in some combat cases white paintballs rule the day, with perhaps a smattering of red here and there. But, you're picking late DS9, which seems to feature a good amount of red paintballs, as your standard.

You don't see the problem with that?

As for the ranges, sorry 2046, but I'm not convinced.
ST space combat regularly takes place at as short ranges as SW space combat, so at these "spitball" ranges (as you say), the HTL blanketing method would work...

Only if you assume the Trek captain is a retard who pulls up to spitball range then cannot comprehend that a high volume of wild fire means back off.

In Trek, at least, combat range closure has a purpose. Accuracy is still quite possible at higher ranges, but improves at closer ranges. Enemy response time decreases. Torpedoes cannot be fired at maximum yield without blowback, so you limit your damage somewhat. Et cetera.

But for Star Wars, closing to spitball range is a matter of requirement, not tactics. Good grief, there are probably a dozen instances from RotS and RotJ of starships sitting almost on top of each other firing broadside. Even the new CGI movie showed the two sides squared off within a couple of dozen kilometers waiting for the fight to start.

[Mike DiCenso]

About 30 seconds in . . . the one on the right that pops in toward the Borg ship, says "oh snap, I was just kiddin', y'all", hangs a hard left, then bugs right slam the hell outta there.

I think I found it. The Miranda let's loose a single torpedo before swerving around and behind the cube.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

But for Star Wars, closing to spitball range is a matter of requirement, not tactics. Good grief, there are probably a dozen instances from RotS and RotJ of starships sitting almost on top of each other firing broadside. Even the new CGI movie showed the two sides squared off within a couple of dozen kilometers waiting for the fight to start.

Interestingly enough, in the earlier Cartoon Network TV series, we see during the later stages of the Battle of Muunilinst, Acclamators pulling up to and pumping TL fire point-blank (from a few hundred meters at most) into the Muunilinst gun platform space stations. Interestingly enough, this is also a rare time we see a space station outside the regular EU Golan battlestations, or the Death Stars of the movies. If the space stations in the TCW movie and TV series are any indication of regular SW space station sizes, it's no wonder Han and Luke mistook the DSI for a small moon.
-Mike