Phaser/warp power

[Mr. Oragahn]

And you're right, but it's still a 'cheat'. When the ship jumps to lightspeed, we do not say (based on relativity) that it therefore must have a reactor capable of generating infinite power, though present physical laws would argue that it must be so.

Unsurprisingly, this very absurd reasoning was seen lately at SDN to argue about massive power generation for all sorts of ships, including Vader's TIE and a jump to c.

Everyone would see how it's just downright absurd, but over there you can make such claims and not expect anyone to disagree.
This is not bias. This is fundamentalism.

[Mike DiCenso]

Again, I have heard the line for actual, and he says "millions". The scripts and transcripts all give "millions". So it is not incorrect, and the intention of the writers (or rather the science advisor who stuck it in there for the writers) is clear. Thus it is a reasonable conservative power statement for the Intrepid class.
-Mike

You wouldn't mind providing links to these 'multiple' transcripts and the script then. Given that you earlier didn't mention any of them, I'm guessing you're making things up.

Three different lists here:

- The Voyager Season 4 DVD set subtitles. This is as offical Paramount can make it for the dialog the character is supposed to be speaking. I can't link to that as an online source, but it has already been independently referenced by Cocytus here in this very thread without my having to prompt him.

- You already know about the Chakotaya.net transcript and the link to that.

- Graham Kennedy's transcript of the scene for his DITL's Intrepid Class power output article

All of that is lying, huh?

Oh, and in the meanwhile. Here's a link to that thread I mentioned earlier, where the question of whether you hear billions or millions is asked. Billions win by crushing majority. On a site where most would be motivated to click millions simply because of their dislike for Trek.

That's fine. I saw it in the previous thread it was posted in, and they can still be wrong. Now while I'am sure that particular group of people think they heard the word billions, not millions, I am opting for the transcripts and offical script/subtitle millions in order to have a conservative power statement for Voyager.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Now, we know in this case that they were tying all the power they had into the tractor beam, such that life support failure was imminent. They would have been running the core at its absolute to-the-point-of-breach power production capability. We know from another episode that the E-D has at least nine fusion reactors which power other systems. In fact, most of its functions are not in fact served by the warpcore. "The Nth Degree" and "Hero Worship" both establish the core doesn't power the shields, so its unlikely it powers the communications system either. Ships like the E-E, Voyager, Delta Flyer, etc. have ejected their cores and still maintained life-support, sublight engines and other systems. In any event, given that they DID move the fragment some distance, this example can serve as an estimate of the peak power production of the entire ship.

This seems to run contrary to TOS, where the impulse engines could also power the shield and other systems, but were substantially weaker than they were when powered by the warp engines. In fact, warp drive seemed to be the prefered power source for most systems. In ST:TMP, the refit Constitution design increased phaser power by directly powering them through the warp drive.

In the TNG-era, the Defiant as per "The Sound of Her Voice", powered the phasers via warp power, though when at warp speed, there was a trade-off between speed and phaser power. In ST:Insurrection, the E-E was made substantially weaker without her warp core. The fact that she could still use shields and phasers is only a reasonable back-up capability given the TOS precident. She also went up against the Son'a battleships using a bunch of ignited technobabble metreon gas to disable or destroy them , and then went and beat up on the less powerful remaining flagship and collector.
-Mike

The Defiant was dumping the phaser reserves into the warp system to increase their speed in order to reach captain Cusack in time. This doesn't mean the phasers are powered by the drive. In fact, we see in "Behind the Lines" Sisko, and later Dax, making a ceremony out of displaying the power cells for the phasers in the Mess Hall, further proof that they don't run off the warpcore, but off of replaceable packs. And a discrepancy with TOS is hardly proof against this assertion. After all, you pointed out what I missed in the other thread, that 23rd century Starfleet can't recrystallize dilithium, but 24th century Starfleet can. It's not a stretch to say that the 24th century has better power generators besides simply the warpcore, and can run more systems independently in case the warpcore goes offline or is dumped. After all, in the Constitution redesign, an antimatter imbalance renders phasers inoperable. Successive designers undoubtedly looked for ways to minimize the dependence of critical systems, (shields, weapons, sublight propulsion) on the warpcore.

Actually, it was more a matter of strengthening the Defiant's SIF, than actually directly dumping the power into the warp plasma itself since at speeds above warp 9, the Defiant has the weakness that she literally shakes herself to pieces because she's so overpowered for her size.

Even still, it was interesting in that O'Brien chose the phasers to provide that power, and not another system's to buff up the SIF with. This implies a great deal of energy gets pumped into the power cells or the standby reserves. And yes, even in TOS the ship's phasers were still powered by the warp drive, even when the phasers had rechargeable banks, rather than arrays, which is why Scotty in "The Doomsday Machine" was able to recharge one of the Constellation's depleted phaser banks with impulse power. However, "Elaan of Troyius" showed that warp drive was the prefered power source for phasers and torpedoes.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

I'd like to point out that it's laughable that the gauntlet 7o9 had on her hand would provide a reliable insulator. It's full of holes. Even my old socks would do better.

Not if the "gaunlet" as you call her left hand's exoskeleton has some property about it, say a field it generates, that protects her from the plasma, even if for a short time.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Calamairan to be Earth-like.

Just a note of correction, the planet in "Deja Q" was named Bre'el IV. Calamairan was the name of the plasma-based aliens seeking revenge on Q in the same episode.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

Calamairan to be Earth-like.

Just a note of correction, the planet in "Deja Q" was named Bre'el IV. Calamairan was the name of the plasma-based aliens seeking revenge on Q in the same episode.
-Mike

Thanks. Edited the post to fix the name.

And also edited the TNG Power Technology page to give decent figures for "Deja Q".

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'd like to point out that it's laughable that the gauntlet 7o9 had on her hand would provide a reliable insulator. It's full of holes. Even my old socks would do better.

Not if the "gaunlet" as you call her left hand's exoskeleton has some property about it, say a field it generates, that protects her from the plasma, even if for a short time.
-Mike

It would require evidence that this extremely thin and holed gauntlet holds all the power sources and force field generators.

[Cocytus]

Actually, it was more a matter of strengthening the Defiant's SIF, than actually directly dumping the power into the warp plasma itself since at speeds above warp 9, the Defiant has the weakness that she literally shakes herself to pieces because she's so overpowered for her size.

Even still, it was interesting in that O'Brien chose the phasers to provide that power, and not another system's to buff up the SIF with. This implies a great deal of energy gets pumped into the power cells or the standby reserves. And yes, even in TOS the ship's phasers were still powered by the warp drive, even when the phasers had rechargeable banks, rather than arrays, which is why Scotty in "The Doomsday Machine" was able to recharge one of the Constellation's depleted phaser banks with impulse power. However, "Elaan of Troyius" showed that warp drive was the prefered power source for phasers and torpedoes.
-Mike

That's fine. I'm not arguing about TOS. My point is that over the next century engineers worked to close that power gap you mentioned, between warp power and other power, such that by the time of TNG, the phasers could function reliably at a power level sufficient to deal with most threats without the core.

[2046]

Further, this is of immense easily applicable use. If the E-D can draw thousands of exawatts from subspace using its warp coils, that in and of itself is easily turned into a power generator of massive capabilities. A perpetual motion machine, in fact. Phased matter seems to be mostly transformed and transitioned; there's no real usable energy production that we can be sure of. Same thing with antigrav. Having free antigrav that doesn't obey CoE means you can generate loads of free power. Given the portability of antigrav tech, in fact, you can make very small perpetual motion machines.

I see where you're going, but I just don't agree. Mass lightening is canon, and perpetual motion is not (save for Nomad's report of himself). Ergo, we must be missing data or otherwise are ignorant of something.

I would equate it to magnets . . . on their face, you would think that a device requiring no power yet doing work would be a quick ticket to perpetual motion, but it just isn't so. I think mass-lightening tech has similar issues.

(This should be unsurprising, given the history of perpetual motion . . . stuff that appears to work on paper never actually works.)

Maybe I'm just having trouble accepting the high numbers you're coming up with, but it just seems as if something is wrong. Being a slow and ponderous thinker, I'll have to consider the matter further before reporting what that is.

[Mike DiCenso]

Actually, it was more a matter of strengthening the Defiant's SIF, than actually directly dumping the power into the warp plasma itself since at speeds above warp 9, the Defiant has the weakness that she literally shakes herself to pieces because she's so overpowered for her size.

Even still, it was interesting in that O'Brien chose the phasers to provide that power, and not another system's to buff up the SIF with. This implies a great deal of energy gets pumped into the power cells or the standby reserves. And yes, even in TOS the ship's phasers were still powered by the warp drive, even when the phasers had rechargeable banks, rather than arrays, which is why Scotty in "The Doomsday Machine" was able to recharge one of the Constellation's depleted phaser banks with impulse power. However, "Elaan of Troyius" showed that warp drive was the prefered power source for phasers and torpedoes.
-Mike

That's fine. I'm not arguing about TOS. My point is that over the next century engineers worked to close that power gap you mentioned, between warp power and other power, such that by the time of TNG, the phasers could function reliably at a power level sufficient to deal with most threats without the core.

I think you missed my point. The warp drive does power these things, and in the case of the ST:Insurrection, we have a clear cut case of a TNG-era ship that was rendered substantially weaker when the warp core was lost ala the E-1701 from "Elann of Troyius".

So if the impulse engines are designed to provide power to shields and weapons in the advent that warp power is lost, it still cannot provide the same level of power, at least not indefinitely, as warp power can.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

I'd like to point out that it's laughable that the gauntlet 7o9 had on her hand would provide a reliable insulator. It's full of holes. Even my old socks would do better.

Not if the "gaunlet" as you call her left hand's exoskeleton has some property about it, say a field it generates, that protects her from the plasma, even if for a short time.
-Mike

It would require evidence that this extremely thin and holed gauntlet holds all the power sources and force field generators.

Why should it? We know from "Hope and Fear" [VOY, Season 4], that Seven's implants can be reactivated, and that even in her mostly de-Borgified state, she can still project at least pass through force-fields.

A similar, though rarer and more extreme form of it occurs in "The Raven" [VOY, Season 4] when some of her implants regenerate themselves, providing her with shields. So her implants (remember that's what that "gauntlet" is) can provide the power for things like that. Whether or not she can do that at will in ordinary circumstances is another matter.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

In "Small Step," Voyager runs into 30 EJ of subspace energy.

The Graviton ellipse in that episode is described as being 1 kilometer wide, which matches up fairly well with the visual FX of when Voyager closes in point-blank to the phenomena to rescue the Delta Flyer, though it does appear slightly larger at 1.2 km x .7 km on the long axis. Just rough back-of-the-envelope calculations give the ellipse a rough surface area of some 5,277,875.6 square meters. Dividing that into 30 million terajoules gives us some 5.68 TJ per meter^2! Potentially, assume square shaped forward shields of 136 x 63 meters, Voyager has the potential of intercepting up to 48,666 TW of subspace energy! Even if Voyager is only hit by 1/1000th of that over time, the foward shields are still getting some 48.6 TW.
-Mike

[Cocytus]

Actually, it was more a matter of strengthening the Defiant's SIF, than actually directly dumping the power into the warp plasma itself since at speeds above warp 9, the Defiant has the weakness that she literally shakes herself to pieces because she's so overpowered for her size.

Even still, it was interesting in that O'Brien chose the phasers to provide that power, and not another system's to buff up the SIF with. This implies a great deal of energy gets pumped into the power cells or the standby reserves. And yes, even in TOS the ship's phasers were still powered by the warp drive, even when the phasers had rechargeable banks, rather than arrays, which is why Scotty in "The Doomsday Machine" was able to recharge one of the Constellation's depleted phaser banks with impulse power. However, "Elaan of Troyius" showed that warp drive was the prefered power source for phasers and torpedoes.
-Mike

That's fine. I'm not arguing about TOS. My point is that over the next century engineers worked to close that power gap you mentioned, between warp power and other power, such that by the time of TNG, the phasers could function reliably at a power level sufficient to deal with most threats without the core.

I think you missed my point. The warp drive does power these things, and in the case of the ST:Insurrection, we have a clear cut case of a TNG-era ship that was rendered substantially weaker when the warp core was lost ala the E-1701 from "Elann of Troyius".

So if the impulse engines are designed to provide power to shields and weapons in the advent that warp power is lost, it still cannot provide the same level of power, at least not indefinitely, as warp power can.
-Mike

Well, we both have canon evidence to support our respective positions, so I guess we'll have to politely disagree. Again, I'm not arguing your points about TOS, but a lot has changed in those hundred years. I don't believe the E-E was substantially impaired by the loss of her core. True, Ru'Afo's ship was driven off by the scout ship, but it then ably defeated the similarly sized (and, as per Worf's description, combat oriented) captains' yacht. And Ru'Afo's ship was caught by surprise by the scout ship. The torpedoes it fired were visually identical to those the battleships used to great effect against the E-E in the Briar Patch. The E-E's shields handled them all the same, without core power. She communicated with Picard aboard the collector, so communications worked just fine. And last but not least, the E-E survived, without core power, the detonation of her own core. So something on the ship handled that kind of power without the benefit of the warp core.

To summarize my position: I acknowledge your point that in TOS, without core power systems were substantially impaired. By TNG, ships relied less on the core for critical systems like weapons and shields. This meant three things: One, that a ship could better maintain herself should the core need to be abandoned. Two, that more core power could be devoted to driving the ship at greater speeds. And Three, that a diversion of core power to a certain system now meant a substantial power increase for that system, given that cores by the 24th century are more efficient and more powerful. I agree that phasers and shields are obviously greatly stronger with core power behind them, but that 24th century ships have, by relying less on the core, turned what was a weakness for them into a source of sudden and considerable strength.

However, I think the most conclusive evidence in my favor is Star Trek Nemesis. The warpcore went offline as a result of the Scimitar's attack, yet the E-E still maintained shields and weapons at full strength (or at least strength enough to both resist and fight the Scimitar, which is considerable) Those sorts of situations are EXACTLY WHY later ship classes don't rely on the core to power those systems.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Further, this is of immense easily applicable use. If the E-D can draw thousands of exawatts from subspace using its warp coils, that in and of itself is easily turned into a power generator of massive capabilities. A perpetual motion machine, in fact. Phased matter seems to be mostly transformed and transitioned; there's no real usable energy production that we can be sure of. Same thing with antigrav. Having free antigrav that doesn't obey CoE means you can generate loads of free power. Given the portability of antigrav tech, in fact, you can make very small perpetual motion machines.

I see where you're going, but I just don't agree. Mass lightening is canon, and perpetual motion is not (save for Nomad's report of himself). Ergo, we must be missing data or otherwise are ignorant of something.

I would equate it to magnets . . . on their face, you would think that a device requiring no power yet doing work would be a quick ticket to perpetual motion, but it just isn't so. I think mass-lightening tech has similar issues.

Maybe I'm just having trouble accepting the high numbers you're coming up with, but it just seems as if something is wrong. Being a slow and ponderous thinker, I'll have to consider the matter further before reporting what that is.

Well, if it's the highest numbers, the very highest numbers are anything but certain. The individual estimates regarding the "Deja Q" case, for example, could easily be substantially off; we're not so sure on the precise size, position, and mass of Bre'el, Bre'el IV, and its wayward moon. It's a guess, but not a very precise one.

Then, there's also the energy stored in the gravitational field of the moon itself (not just the moon having a different binding energy relative to other objects in the system), which you might guesstimate
classically at several exajoules - small, but potentially significant in the larger scheme of things as a correction factor.

The highest numbers of all - "Operation:Annihilate!" are spectacularly unreliable IMO, and it's worth keeping in mind that the power noted is only supplied for a very brief flash.

There are a lot of dodges we can make - but whenever we can find a possible or actual combination of final and initial states without any warp fields present, we can estimate the net work done. Since the E-D can drop out of warp on a dime basically at will ("Relics") we can insert a possible final state involving a warp-field free object wherever it (or the moon, or whatever) move to. However we dice it, though, the 12.75 exawatt dialog reference is probably at least an order of magnitude below peak performance, even if it is quite enough to drive the ship at normal warp speeds.

We might also ask how much ready energy the warp nacelles and EPS system might store from the warp core. It's quite possible that peak power consumption from the warp power system exceeds the sustainable peak power generation of the warp core, seeing as in all these cases, the real peak power requirements - warping upstream in a g field, applying a warp field - usually are short-term.

You may remember your "Homer Simpsons per second" concern; I have calculated, however, that Voyager, to gauge by warp core pressures and temperatures, should have no difficulty pumping plasma in fast enough to hit... oh... 76 exawatts, give or take.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Not if the "gaunlet" as you call her left hand's exoskeleton has some property about it, say a field it generates, that protects her from the plasma, even if for a short time.
-Mike

It would require evidence that this extremely thin and holed gauntlet holds all the power sources and force field generators.

Why should it? We know from "Hope and Fear" [VOY, Season 4], that Seven's implants can be reactivated, and that even in her mostly de-Borgified state, she can still project at least pass through force-fields.

A similar, though rarer and more extreme form of it occurs in "The Raven" [VOY, Season 4] when some of her implants regenerate themselves, providing her with shields. So her implants (remember that's what that "gauntlet" is) can provide the power for things like that. Whether or not she can do that at will in ordinary circumstances is another matter.
-Mike

My question was relatively simpler: where is the hardware for those arm shields?

Besides, regarding the Defiant and phasers, I think it's possible that the Defiant, being a new design, may have been thought with decentralized and maybe redundant systems, to further her ability to fight when certain systems would get critically damaged.
As a whole, UFP ships are reliable, so are their warp core, that they have major systems powered by the warp core.
But on the Defiant, a special design, it could be possible that phasers were originally given their own independant power core. It doesn't mean it could pump out powers for as long as a warp core, but I suppose that it could go through those peaks, which could be rated at a percentage of the local warp core, for short periods, being plausible auxiliary power sources in case of an emergency.
It would also offer a failsafe, as we've seen phasers kick back into ships when facing bizarre conditions, like trying to vape some elements which generate reactions which climb up to the ship, as it happened in that episode with the old lady robot and the E-D digging holes in the crust.
In such a case, if the phaser was to go down, at least it would affect its own power source, but now the warp core.
The advantage, there, would be to be capable of using the phasers (well, pulse phasers if I get it correctly) without putting the warp core at risk.