Base Delta Zero

[Mr. Oragahn]

It doesn't stop me doing so for simple reasons.

When asked to provide the calcs, you didn't comply.

You can complain all you want that I aware about those faulty calcs beforehand, but first, Spacebattles is not just about me you know, there's like plenty of members on that board, many of which don't even know about those calcs and would have liked to hear about them, and secondly, the rules forbid linking to other discussion boards.
Thirdly, I really wanted to know if the calcs you mentionned were the exact same.

Now you know, and actually, have known, whether you could link someone else or not.

So can I expect to see no more posts with, "Poe can't prove those calcs were around before ICS?"

That's a poor excuse. You precisely know why as you made the claim, you had to defend it. The fact that I knew about a set of calcs is pretty much irrelevant when you didn't even bother naming the calcs in question.
Of course, it's easy to ignore board rules that say you have to defend your claims, and it's even easier to pretend that no one else safe me would have liked to see those calcs.

So it's very simple. Next time you make such a bold claim, you should provide matter or not bother.

[Cock_Knocker]

That's a poor excuse. You precisely know why as you made the claim, you had to defend it. The fact that I knew about a set of calcs is pretty much irrelevant when you didn't even bother naming the calcs in question.

So the false handwaving and persecution was all a show for everyone at SB, right? After all, you did know what I was talking about. You did know those calcs existed well before AOTC:ICS. Yet you continued the war cry and baiting.

Of course, it's easy to ignore board rules that say you have to defend your claims, and it's even easier to pretend that no one else safe me would have liked to see those calcs.

What board rules did I ignore? When RSA and other folks of similar mental insecurities were having conniptions when the ICS came out, they also knew full well that those calcs existed. But that hasn't stopped them from trying to BS everyone into believing that the ICS invented them.

So it's very simple. Next time you make such a bold claim, you should provide matter or not bother.

I made no claim. I corrected false propoganda, of which you knew of but like to make a scene on SB as if you didn't anyway.

[Mr. Oragahn]

That's a poor excuse. You precisely know why as you made the claim, you had to defend it. The fact that I knew about a set of calcs is pretty much irrelevant when you didn't even bother naming the calcs in question.

So the false handwaving and persecution was all a show for everyone at SB, right? After all, you did know what I was talking about. You did know those calcs existed well before AOTC:ICS. Yet you continued the war cry and baiting.

Simply because that thread was not for me only. You, of course, seems to think it was all about me and only me.
Other people could have wanted to see those calcs, and thus far, there won't have the chance to.
I will remind you, once again, that I wasn't even sure myself that we were thinking about the same calcs, and I would certainly not post the January ones, which are all the more erroneous (it's not surprising that no one bothered bringing them to SBC, considering how embarassing they'd have been, even for the most ardent warsie).

Of course, it's easy to ignore board rules that say you have to defend your claims, and it's even easier to pretend that no one else safe me would have liked to see those calcs.

What board rules did I ignore? When RSA and other folks of similar mental insecurities were having conniptions when the ICS came out, they also knew full well that those calcs existed. But that hasn't stopped them from trying to BS everyone into believing that the ICS invented them.

I don't care what they did back then. It couldn't be more irrelevant.

As for the rule:

7) Burden of Proof.
An extension of rule #6.
If you make the claim, you must provide the evidence. This includes (but is not limited to) extracts from sources, screenshots, short clips or others as appropriate. In addition to this, the FULL evidence must be presented. Failure to provide the evidence to back up a claim in a reasonable timeframe will result in a the claim being declared as false.

So it's very simple. Next time you make such a bold claim, you should provide matter or not bother.

I made no claim. I corrected false propoganda, of which you knew of but like to make a scene on SB as if you didn't anyway.

You made a claim. Don't try to call it differently.
I have nothing more to add.

[Cock_Knocker]

Simply because that thread was not for me only. You, of course, seems to think it was all about me and only me.
Other people could have wanted to see those calcs, and thus far, there won't have the chance to.

And you were quite unable to show them, and instead pretended they didn't really exist even though you knew they did? Gotcha.

I will remind you, once again, that I wasn't even sure myself that we were thinking about the same calcs, and I would certainly not post the January ones, which are all the more erroneous (it's not surprising that no one bothered bringing them to SBC, considering how embarassing they'd have been, even for the most ardent warsie).

The January calcs, along with a host of others, relied on all the accepted evidence. Its no wonder some would suppress their existence even when they knew about it, in order to keep the "AOTC:ICS invented Calcszzz!!" fallacy going.

I don't care what they did back then. It couldn't be more irrelevant.

As for the rule:

Once again, I made no claim; I corrected a long standing falsehood that you had no problem continuing, even though you've known the truth for quite a while now.

[Mr. Oragahn]

1. For anyone at SBC who doesn't even know about this place or me, your post will simply remain filled with empty claims and in violations of rules. It's not really my problem if you don't get it.

2. You can defend the January calc in the appropriate thread, I even put the link where it belongs. Now, how long has it been since you defended your beliefs correctly, instead of throwing hate boulders from your fortress of ignorance again?

[TheRedFear]

I've always found it most amusing, that the Death Star, the pinnacle of Star Wars Weapons platform technology was made smaller, faster, and more efficient in Star Trek's most primitive era to date.

By Sisko/Janeway/Picard's era the deathstar's over a century out of date. Heh

[stoneburner]

I've always found it most amusing, that the Death Star, the pinnacle of Star Wars Weapons platform technology was made smaller, faster, and more efficient in Star Trek's most primitive era to date.

By Sisko/Janeway/Picard's era the deathstar's over a century out of date. Heh

Yes, because the Xindi superweapon demonstrated the same amount of firepower as did the Death Star. Oh, wait, no it didn't. Alderaan was destroyed in a much more energetic fashion that was Earth.

Well that's ok, I guess you're still in the clear on the "faster" claim. Oh, wait, no, the Death Star travels through Hyperspace at millions of times c as opposed to the Xindi superweapon, which moves at ST's warp speeds.

I guess you'rve got your unsupported efficiency claims to fall back on. Oh, wait, we have no idea how efficient the Death Star's generators were as compared to the Xindi superweapon.

It appears your entire argument is either completely wrong or unsupported.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Yes, because the Xindi superweapon demonstrated the same amount of firepower as did the Death Star. Oh, wait, no it didn't. Alderaan was destroyed in a much more energetic fashion that was Earth.

Alderaan was, much like Earth, destroyed in a chain reaction. Both were destroyed equally effectively.

Given the highly non-linear nature of the planet-busting firepower in question, that says very little about the comparative raw power involved.

Well that's ok, I guess you're still in the clear on the "faster" claim. Oh, wait, no, the Death Star travels through Hyperspace at millions of times c as opposed to the Xindi superweapon, which moves at ST's warp speeds.

Hyperdrive is not as fast as you're claiming. Further, the Xindi superweapon only required ten hours to arrive at Earth from somewhere within the 2,000 light year wide Expanse, which puts it at around one million times light speed, and the Xindi have been clocked in excess of a million times lightspeed otherwise. I recommend you develop your familiarity with the relevant episodes more carefully before jumping to conclusions.

[Cocytus]

I've been going over the Michael January pages Oragahn and Cock-knocker have referenced above, and I have a question. Where does the quote on his power generation page "a single hyperspace jump requires more energy than an entire planetary nation would require in its history" come from? The bulk of his power figures are based on an interpretation of that quote as literal fact, which to me presents problems. If we consider such statements as these to be completely factual, without the aid of any quantifiable figures (as are given by Data's 12.75 billion gigawatt statement) then a Galaxy-class produces less that a terawatt, whereas the Defiant can reduce a planet to a smoking cinder, and the entire Imperial navy contains fewer than a thousand ships, all of which together coulnd't destroy an entire planet.

I apologize if this has already been trodden into the dirt. I'm new to this.

[Mike DiCenso]

The quote you are refering to comes from page 18, volume #2 of Shane Johnson's Star Wars Technical Journal.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

I've been going over the Michael January pages Oragahn and Cock-knocker have referenced above, and I have a question. Where does the quote on his power generation page "a single hyperspace jump requires more energy than an entire planetary nation would require in its history" come from? The bulk of his power figures are based on an interpretation of that quote as literal fact, which to me presents problems. If we consider such statements as these to be completely factual, without the aid of any quantifiable figures (as are given by Data's 12.75 billion gigawatt statement) then a Galaxy-class produces less that a terawatt, whereas the Defiant can reduce a planet to a smoking cinder, and the entire Imperial navy contains fewer than a thousand ships, all of which together coulnd't destroy an entire planet.

I apologize if this has already been trodden into the dirt. I'm new to this.

It's particularily funny in this case how the exact sentence changes from source to source. Check out SWTC, ST-v-SW.net or SDN, their version are all different.
We don't know what nations we're talking about (it's extremely vague), nor how long the hyperjump in question would have lasted.

What we can see is that the hyperjump reference is interpretated by SDN types as a "start up" energy expenditure.

It's a bizarre way to, once again, enhance numbers, in an universe, especially the EU, where it's not unusual to have hyperspace trips said to last days or weeks, even for Star Destroyers.

It's most absurd as well, since it would mean that even to achieve a microjump, the energy production would already be pointlessly enormous regardless of the distance.

Of course, I suppose it would be too obvious to think that the energy expenditure is the total energy produced over the whole trip, not just to enter hyperspace.

When you say your car burnt x galons of fuel for a trip between point A and point B, you don't pretend that all the fuel was burnt when you switched your engine on.

Working from Saxton's figure, x e21 J... say the trip lasts one day. That's 86,400 seconds.

Let's work from one million petajoules (e6 PJ).

We're left with 11.574 petawatts, or 2.76 megatons per second. This for a one day trip, based on Saxton's figure. It could go up or down from that figure by several orders of magnitude.

Now consider that the wording is supposed to present a formidable case, a great example of how much energy a Star Destroyer has been known to produce at some point. Think of it as a record.
From the reasoning above, such a record could only be achieved by producing as much energy as possible, for the longest time possible; In that case, imagine crossing the galaxy from tip to tip, this would be a good landmark to know the maximum energy produced by an ISD.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'm just bumping this so I don't have to search for it again. I'm going to address some claims and present a compiled list of my arguments, notably those presented more than one years ago at SBC, here and here.

I'll start with Caamas, quotes from Hand of Thrawn and what I posted in the ICS thread, go on with Dankayo, Emberlene, while citing SDN's page about the BDZ order.
We have seen Saxton's official intervention in Star Wars' EU lose credit, but there still are certain arguments which keep resurfacing, so providing conclusive arguments will act as the final nails in the coffin.

If it's not evidence enough, the principle is to tackle any BDZ related material prior and outside of the data provided by Saxton in official literature, to prove just how much baseless his numbers, largely built in agreement with Wong, were complete rubbish.

[PunkMaister]

According to Dodonna, the whole starfleet probably has a firepower almost worth of two Spheres of Fear (approx).

I have a fresh example of a thread that derivated towards a BDZ centric discussion.

Clicky (the whole page - 11).

Umm I do not see either anyone under that username nor any references to Starfleet in that thread.

[Roondar]

According to Dodonna, the whole starfleet probably has a firepower almost worth of two Spheres of Fear (approx).

I have a fresh example of a thread that derivated towards a BDZ centric discussion.

Clicky (the whole page - 11).

Umm I do not see either anyone under that username nor any references to Starfleet in that thread.

Dodonna is the rebel dude who tells the pilots about the Deathstar's capabilities in ANH (just before they take off to destroy the Deathstar).

The reference to starfleet is meant as in 'the starfleet belonging to the Empire', not as in UFP Starfleet.

/clarification

[Mr. Oragahn]

• Caamas
  

"I don't suppose there's any chance the record is a forgery," Karrde said, gazing thoughtfully at the datapad. "Something the Emperor might have created with an eye to someday blackmailing the Bothans."

"I doubt it," Leia said. "The royal library on Alderaan had a great deal of information on the attack that burned off Caamas. Details that were never made public knowledge."

"It's hard to believe anything about Caamas could have been kept secret," Karrde said. "The outrage at the time was certainly widespread enough. Worse even than when your own Alderaan was destroyed."

Leia nodded mechanically, her mind's eye drawn unwillingly back to the horrifying holo images she'd seen as a child in the history records. The destruction of Caamas had happened before her time, but the pictures were as vivid as if she'd witnessed the aftermath of the event in person.

The attack had been sudden and thorough, with a viciousness that had made it stand out even against the widespread devastation of the Clone Wars that had preceded it. Perhaps that was what the attackers had banked on, that a populace weary of war would be too emotionally drained to even notice, much less care about the fate of a single world.

But if that was indeed their strategy, it turned out to be a serious miscalculation. The Caamasi had been a good and noble people, with an artistic bent and a gentle wisdom that had won them a deep respect even among their adversaries. Their unwavering belief in peace through moral strength had been a strong influence on the political philosophies of many worlds, including Alderaan, while their firm support of the principles of the Old Republic had made them a rallying point for all such supporters during the political chaos of that era.

It was still not known who the attackers had been who had come out of nowhere to systematically and ruthlessly burn off the planet. None of the Caamasi's political opponents had claimed credit-indeed, all of them had joined in the universal condemnation, at least verbally-and the Caamasi's surviving records of the battle were too badly damaged to be of any use in identification.

But with Lak Jit's datacard, at least one piece of the puzzle had now been solved.

Lak Jit had brought a record on datapad found in Mount Tantiss, on Wayland. The other surviving records were found on Caamas, although badly damaged, beyond use.
The Caamasi exclusively relied on shields for defense.
Now, I'll add there what I already posted twice, both at SBC and here:

While I'm not sure this bump brought anything, I feel inclined to provide the following data about the often quoted destruction of Caamas:

Shield Generator Stations
Being a peaceful species, the Caamasi lacked any armies. Instead, they focused their attention on planetary defense, relying on a powerful shield generator. The planet had sixteen separate shield generator stations situated at equidistant locations on the equator. Each station was located deep underground, and each boasted a complex security system.
During the desctruion of Caamas, Bothan operatives infiltrated the shield generator stations and sabotaged the power supply, crippling the shield. During the attack, most of the stations were destroyed, but at least one is mostly intact. Station number 14, although still hidden an inoperative, remains relatively unscathed. Even the workers at Bothan Debris, Inc., do not suspect it contains clues relating to the Bothan involvement, including an insane resident.

Some Animals survived, as some Caamasi. Some plants possibly did so as well. An underground shield station was relatively intact. The oceans were not vapourized, far from it, and the Jedi Temple was only ruined.

Oh, and that's what was left of the surface:



Unknown fleet size, unknown duration.

The image is identified as "Caamas_TFUCG", probably a picture from The Force Unleashed series products, a card game I'd wager.