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 Post subject: How long WAS the Endor trip????
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:27 pm 
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Ok, after watching Wayne Poe's video (which I found very funny), I felt I had to ask.

After all, I had seen a few texts here and there saying that the Sullust-Endor trip had to have lasted more then a few hours.
I agree with that, but I find it hard to believe that some people actually suggest a journey of 5 days for the trip.

Where do these numbers come from?

I just re-read 2046's page on the trip, and I have to say that 2 days seems reasonable.
I do not agree with 2046's estimate of 5 days for the trap construction.
I've seen less then 50 people built a fully finished house in less then 2 days.
So if there were indeed 500 Ewoks, 150 of them could have built all the primitive traps and catapults in less then 2 days (even those in the Novel).
They could've easily cut the trees some distance from the shield generator, and transported the logs to where they planned the traps to be.
The planning could have been done after the party at the village, after Luke had departed.
After all, the Rebel team most certainly had to know there would be
AT-STs in the vicinity, so they could have prepared for them in advance.

Also, when Han says to meet them at 0300 hours, he has to mean in the next morning, because if he had meant 3pm, in military terms he would have used 1500 hours.


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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:38 pm 
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IMO, 1/4 to 1/2 the length of Endor's rotation, roughly... meaning 6-12 hours as a normal guess, and 4.5-9 if you pay close attention to the EU.

The Imperial complex is quite large enough to take several hours to sneak through, and morning should be about that far from afternoon.

Sure, the Ewoks have to work like mad in that case, but that seems to me to be the length of time best communicated by the film. I am curious, though, because I don't remember where the 0300 line comes into play.


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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:09 pm 
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Well, that's what I read on 2046's site, but it's been a while since I've seen RotJ, so I don't know if it's from the movie or the novelisation.


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:35 am 
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Well, here's the thing about Han's statement: When we next see the rebel commando team it has to be well after the 0300 hour since it is broad daylight, and 0300 would correspond to 3 am in the morning (before sunrise). So several more hours, or even longer could have gone by here. Perhaps even a good portion of the day as has been pointed out since the bunker complex is rather large.
-Mike


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:56 am 
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By the way, I think that we can all agree that the endurance of the fighters and their pilots aren't as big an issue, especially for a trip of a day or two given that the EU explicitly states that an X-wing can support it's pilot for nearly a week.
-Mike


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:54 am 
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I think, you take the wrong approach.

On the sides
and
          [url=http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWendorday2.html]The Endor Attack Hyperspace Trip
          Pt. II : Continuation, Appendices, Et Cetera [/url]
is, as it seems at the first view, a well founded theory about the length of the Endor Trip.
It is prima facie correct and it would be the task of those, who are the opinion, that it is incorrect, to show the mistakes in that theory.
Until it is shown, where it is impossible or implausible, it is the best theory I know and therefore the theory I would choose if I have to choose.

To merely say, that it has taken so and so much time, is an opinion, but no argument. One has to give reasons for that opinion.

And to merely present another theory, that is also supported by the facts, is only half of the work. Then, there would be two (or more) possible theories and it would be necessary to show, why the own theory is better than the others.


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 Post subject: Re: How long WAS the Endor trip????
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:11 am 
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Praeothmin wrote:
I've seen less then 50 people built a fully finished house in less then 2 days.


Um . . . what? It takes a lot longer than that to build a house, even with (if not especially with) fifty dudes all on top of each other getting in one another's way. Even a modular structure that is largely pre-assembled will take at least a day or two for final assembly on-site.

Assuming modern US construction techniques and a pre-existing foundation with pre-existing water and sewer connections (a big gimme right there), not to mention pre-delivered lumber and other supplies, you're looking at getting the walls framed and raised, the top plates and joists put in place, rafters and roof skin (usu. plywood) in position, along with work on plumbing, A/C, electrical, and phone. Only when those are out of the way would you generally insulate, and then you have to hang sheetrock (with cutouts around the boxes for light-switches, electrical outlets, et cetera), do whatever you're going to do with the exterior wall, put on whatever sort of roof you're putting on, et cetera. This ignores the installation of kitchen appliances, construction of counterspace in the kitchen and bathrooms, et cetera.

That having been said, it is possible . . . with weeks of extensive pre-planning (including a minute-by-minute script for each person), a crane, and so on, for hundreds of people to build a three bedroom, two bath house in about three and a half hours. Your two-day homebuild could've been similar . . . perhaps a cookie-cutter design and a large, experienced crew composed of companies that had done the same house before.

But in both cases, we're talking about a lot of pre-planning going in.

Do you really think the Ewoks had their battle plan meticulously laid out in advance? Did they even have the ability to write it down?

The sort of work involved in creating even what we saw on screen is stupendous, given that we're limited to manual labor and a civilization that doesn't give any evidence of the wheel, so far as I know.

Consider my page. Saying it could all happen in less than two days . . . starting from nothing, proceeding through planning and even assuming a flawless, well-ordered execution beyond what one would expect from a stone-age culture . . . is incredibly unrealistic.

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They could've easily cut the trees some distance from the shield generator, and transported the logs to where they planned the traps to be.


Transported with what? Do you see wheels? It would be pure Ewok muscle that we're talking about, dragging the logs into place. (It's not like they could roll them given the density of trees.) Making a primitive road out of sticks meant to roll beneath the logs would only help slightly.

I seem to recall that some have claimed the Ewoks are super-strong (due to the midget actors picking up plastic rocks), but even assuming powerhouse weightlifting Ewoks their primitive technology is going to mean that a lot of manpower is required.

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The planning could have been done after the party at the village, after Luke had departed.


How would they know they'd be at the other entrance?

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After all, the Rebel team most certainly had to know there would be
AT-STs in the vicinity, so they could have prepared for them in advance.


Why and how? They didn't even know there were biker scouts until they were almost on top of them.


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:24 am 
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Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. It has been a while since I last watched Jedi.

The Ewoks already knew all about the shield generator. It's also clear that this tribe at least lives in pretty close proximity to the installation. Isn't it entirely likely that they had built the traps long before the rebels even landed on Endor? Threepio and the gang had to convince them to actively take up arms against the Empire, but I find it hard to believe that their new neighbors bothered to establish any kind of relations with the Ewoks before setting up shop. I also find it hard to believe that the indigenous society living in such close proximity to the base would fail to notice giant metal machines stomping around in their home.

We already know that they use traps to guard their territory from the scene in which the gang is captured in a net. Before joining the rebels, they probably did the best they could to avoid the Empire, but built the traps to defend themselves if need be.


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:14 pm 
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Quote:
Isn't it entirely likely that they had built the traps long before the rebels even landed on Endor? {...} We already know that they use traps to guard their territory from the scene in which the gang is captured in a net.


The net trap had a big piece of meat as bait . . . ergo, that was a hunting trap. I rather doubt they were hunting AT-STs.

After all, the Imperials considered the Ewoks "harmless non-combatants". Had they been interfering with Imperial operations, do you really think the Empire would've thought twice about blowing them up? They blow up their own people . . . Ewok target practice wouldn't faze them.



Incidentally, I find argument-by-video to be a very poor choice if reason is one's guide. Though used to great effect by 9/11 conspiracy nuts and Michael Moore-types, the 'persuasive video' genre suffers from its own goal and medium . . . not to mention its maker. Emotional impact is employed in the place of factual impact . . . much like the whole style of SDN debating.

In this case, Wayne has attempted to mock a demonstrable timeline by making up silly ideas of what people were up to during off-screen hours. That's all well and good . . . we generally have no real idea what anyone is doing during off-screen hours . . . but does that change the length of time required for Ewoks to dam a river, dig AT-ST-size holes, and dangle giant logs dozens of feet in the air with primitive stone-age tech? Does it change the length of time likely required for the stealthy approach of multiple people to a guarded entrance?

Of course not.


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:42 pm 
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2046 wrote:
Though used to great effect by 9/11 conspiracy nuts and Michael Moore-types...


How is this even relevant? Videos are pretty much all the objective data you can obtain and work from (besides audio data and other forms of stored data like in blackboxes, which unfortunately have all been destroyed), and which can be used to look back at events where the surprise and shock value completely prevented anyone from having any cold and rationale at that moment.
I said it's extremely good, as long as it's not altered, of course, and as long as the context is properly known.


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:46 pm 
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Besides, if they would have built the traps long before the rebels even landed on Endor, the Imperials would have noticed them, at the latest when on AT ST has fallen in an already diged hole.

And they have had scouts in that area. They would have noticed the building of the traps or the finished traps. I can't imagine, that they wouldn't have noticed, that the river was damed or giant logs were hanged up dozens of feet in the air or such logs were arranged in a pile all the time before.


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:49 pm 
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2046 wrote:
Even a modular structure that is largely pre-assembled will take at least a day or two for final assembly on-site.


It was probably pre-modulated, pre-fab, and perhaps the interior wasn't quite finished, but they started construction on Saturday morning, and when I walked in front on Sunday evening, all the brick had been layed, the roof was finished, the entire exterior was completed, and I didn't see many trucks, such as electricians, remaining.

But mainly, what I meant was that, if most of an entire house can be built in 2 days, i'd say a bunch of very primitive traps can be built in less time, expecially if there are as many as 500 Ewoks.

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The sort of work involved in creating even what we saw on screen is stupendous, given that we're limited to manual labor and a civilization that doesn't give any evidence of the wheel


And yet, they build their houses in trees, build catapults, even gliders using nothing else but wood and animal skins.
Thay understand the concept of toppling huge walking machines (perhaps because they are used to hunting huge walking animals).
They are not as primitive as you make them out to be...

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It would be pure Ewok muscle that we're talking about, dragging the logs into place.I seem to recall that some have claimed the Ewoks are super-strong (due to the midget actors picking up plastic rocks), but even assuming powerhouse weightlifting Ewoks their primitive technology is going to mean that a lot of manpower is required.


It took only two Ewoks each to transport Chewbacca, Han and Luke to their village, which wasn't so near, and judging by Harrison Ford's built at the time, I would evaluate his weight at 170 pounds.
I wouldn't put it past Ewoks to use ropes to transport the logs into place, using perhaps 10 Ewoks per logs.
I don't believe in the Super-strong Ewoks, but if you estimate their numbers at around 500, then they do have the "cute cuddly" power to transport logs, even big ones.

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Why and how? They didn't even know there were biker scouts until they were almost on top of them.


Yes, but after they had a talk with the Ewoks, and Threepio translating, they could have learned that there were "big walking monsters around".
After all, the walkers didn't need to be directly next to the back entrance, especially for an ambush, and we have no indications that the traps were directly next to the back entrance either, since the Walkers had to pursue the Ewoks for a little while.

Quote:
does that change the length of time required for Ewoks to dam a river, dig AT-ST-size holes, and dangle giant logs dozens of feet in the air with primitive stone-age tech? Does it change the length of time likely required for the stealthy approach of multiple people to a guarded entrance?
Of course not.


I agree, none of the video changes anyting in the time needed to build the traps.
The only problem from estimating the trip's time is how one estimates the building capabilities of the Ewoks... :)


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:05 pm 
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Come one, one of those puppies even "piloted" a scoutbike.
I know the Empire might want to dumb down its units, but there are limits.

All in all, I don't see any properly and clearly arranged set of clues to get a clear opinion.

I got lost on 2046's page, it's very messy, and Poe's... well, you know that he's going in for the show, not the substance.

There are questions which need to be adressed ver clearly: how big you think the base would be, how long would it take for the rebels to go from the entrance to the generator section, just underneath the dish.
Do you imagine Han Solo running back from that place all that fast, and not loosing breath?

Well, we shouldn't pay too much attention to certain details which were clearly overlooked (there are many glitches, notably on shadows, and having Ford breath heavily would have not crossed the director's mind).

A short but clear chronology would help a lot, since at the moment, the issue is extremely unclear.

I have some arbitrary timeframe that's about half a day, more or less, but that's just made up, really. Gut instinct. A balance between time for preparation and reason tells me that even one full day seems a stretch.


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:28 pm 
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I would say that if we are going with a 'movie overrides the novel' outlook, and suggest that some, if not all, of the traps were made before Wicket left R2 and 3PO, then we would have to disregard the information about the distance to the meeting point of the rebels. If we shouldn't allow for such a thing, meaning that the details of the traps wouldn't factor in, then that would mean that the trip was far shorter thatn what is suggested by Darkstar. My own calculations from strek-v-swars puts it at no more than 2 weeks of constant hyperspace travel. This would also mean that the distance figure of 'hundreds' is not reliable/is not factored in at all because that information was stated with the traps' formation after he left the droids in mind.

So, let's say it only did take a couple days, if even that, to make the trip from near Sullust to Endor. That means the trip itself is totally useless for determining hyperspace speeds and the only thing that's descent is Tatooine to Geonosis. And based on Coruscant time, hyperspace speeds are only on the level of ENT.


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:14 pm 
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GStone wrote:
I would say that if we are going with a 'movie overrides the novel' outlook, and suggest that some, if not all, of the traps were made before Wicket left R2 and 3PO, then we would have to disregard the information about the distance to the meeting point of the rebels. If we shouldn't allow for such a thing, meaning that the details of the traps wouldn't factor in, then that would mean that the trip was far shorter thatn what is suggested by Darkstar. My own calculations from strek-v-swars puts it at no more than 2 weeks of constant hyperspace travel. This would also mean that the distance figure of 'hundreds' is not reliable/is not factored in at all because that information was stated with the traps' formation after he left the droids in mind.


I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Quote:
So, let's say it only did take a couple days, if even that, to make the trip from near Sullust to Endor. That means the trip itself is totally useless for determining hyperspace speeds and the only thing that's descent is Tatooine to Geonosis. And based on Coruscant time, hyperspace speeds are only on the level of ENT.


Eh? The one in TPM, achieved by Maul to reach Tatooine from Coruscant, seemed rather fast.


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