I was reading Crusade for Armageddon a few days ago and missed the significance of this
Morkrull Grimskar razes the Black Templar fortress on Solomnus, landing a rok next to it to deploy his troops.
A BT fleet returns and engages the "conventional" orkish vessels, driving them off or destroying them, the Rok rises from the surface of the planet and rendevous' with Grimskars Space Hulk in system, the BTs launch an assault to retake the fortress/relieve their brethren and let the Orks escape, both Spacehulk and Rok warp jump out.
This is amusing. I've given you examples aplenty, complete with source. So has JMS for that matter. No more or less detailed than your so-called evidence for Ork abilities.
Bullshit.
You posted some vague handwaving about First contact, and Zeph "zig zagging" and Riker zapping him...
In ST:Insurrection a phaser blasts away a rockface like it wasn't even there. In TOS a handphaser on overload threatens several decks of the Enterprise. Riker blows up a head-sized rock with his tiny phaser (the thing is so small it fits in his hand). Worf cuts through metal with his phaser without any problem. Etc. Yet handphasers are stated to be extremely weak and pretty much useless except on the very highest setting.
Then this, which suffers from exactly the same problem as before, its presented as evidence for someone shooting a battleship broadside from a hand weapon, completely ignoring the rather different mechanism might I add.
Then you bitched about SD.net some more ( a common theme here ? or founding principle ?)
Especially since the cold hard math -not to mention the visuals- on the rock-blasting (For instance the phaser vs the rockface in ST:Inssurection, which IIRC they didn't show for their little show of weak-phasers) actually does put phasers squarely in the 'Modern tank or better' category when it comes to blowing stuff up.
Then you managed to reference cold hard math, but complete omit any from your description, or visual evidence....and moan about SD.net some more.
Aaaand we get back to your current post...
To sum up my argument, Orks outnumber and outgun and in fact, have a rather better military culture than the feds. Add to that a complete lack of me accepting you and Spocky's opinions as the gospel truth, its no wonder you focus more on SD.net being mean.
I'll start posting calcs and screenshots when you start posting them for Ork ground weapons. Vague novel quotes won't cut it.
So what you are saying is that you aren't going to actually prove the capabilities of Federation phasers properly, because I'm supposed to prove that ork weapons can actually kill an unarmoured man ?
I like the way you worked that novel quote bit in as well, if theres one thing you guys do consistently, its try and set up your excuses early.
<shrug> I'll start caring about being more precise when err, you start doing what you want of me. You've shown remarkably little evidence yourself on the capabilities of Orks.
On the contrary, I actually had to start providing TREK data because you lot refused to do so.
I again point out your contribution to this discussion has been useless moaning and repetition of opinion as fact.
Why then would I have to take your words for it again? Oh yeah - no reason at all.
I see we've crossed over to bizzaro world again.
Besides, I have pointed out where my proof comes from. That you refuse to accept what happens on screen in a Startrek motion picture is hardly my problem.
I refuse to accept your opinion as fact. get that through your fucking brain.
The part where phasers where suggested to only be able to hurt Orks when at their maximum setting is a good start.
As far as I recall, I suggested that phasers would be able to kill orks when set to Vape, assuming that their armour, which ranges from slabs of iron and leather, to exoskeletal powersuits, isn't an issue.
I pointed out that the Kill setting on federation phasers actually does fairly wussy damage, that won't be sufficient to kill orks.
But yeah, I see reading comprehension is an issue for you.
Get serious. Every single poster in this thread has long since admitted that given enough numbers the Orks will sweep the Earth and win. And that they need a whole lot less numbers than the Federation would need to even begin having a chance (on the order of at least 10 to 1). How much more do you actually want then?
Listen dumbarse, I am not forced to swallow bullshit because someone dropped some honey on it.
Gniops, we have rules about being polite. I strongly recommend you follow them.
I am being polite.
Would it be accurate to say that, overall, the mean Ork capital ship is equivalent to 2.5-3 km in size.
Orkish Kroozers and Terrorships are approximately 2-3km long based on their model size comparison to Imperial cruisers, if you've got the BFG book then you should have a concept of the methodology behind Orkish ship manufacture.
There were roughly 400 of these, and 2000+ more escorts ranging from the smaller brute ram ships, to the larger escorts.
Why is it you feel the need to reiterate what I've said in slightly different terms ?
First, in ST:FC, the Borg are working on turning the E-E's deflector dish into a transmitter. As seen here, the plate that detaches is about 5-6 m in diameter and around half a meter thick. This is, so far as we can tell, a solid metal plate.
You are joking right ?
Worf shoots an active interstellar beacon which explodes, and you've decided to attribute this to the power of the phaser as opposed to oh I don't know, the giant throbbing powersource he's just blasted ?
In "Ensigns of Command," we see steam blasts at least a half kilometer of pipeline away from Data's original shot here, meaning the total thermal energy released by the phaser reaction was enough to produce ~1,000 cubic meters of steam.
Steam blasts ? We see some sort of glowing reaction zap along the pipe and something at the other end explodes, the lying bastard Wongy posted the screenplay that even mentions the dreaded "reaction" word.
Your own site shows this.
Ten billion wasn't a slip. It's as good a guess as we have as to the sentient population of Earth.
Based on what ? I can't believe its taken this long to find out what your basis for this guess was BTW.
Doesn't First contact give a borgified estimate of earths population ?
I assumed there were ten billion potentially capable of resistance when given the opportunity and the means.
Yeah, thats how the orks were outnumbered ten thousand to one eh ?
Images aren't needed, actually, and the calculations have already been done.
Let me just muddle my way through here, your argument is that the entire asteroid has to literally collapse inwards on top of the ship to rationalise the episode ?
A tricorder is miles beyond Zefram Cochrane's level. Basic warp drive is not.
Ork technology isn't Federation technology. Besides, a basic analogue of a tricorder wouldn't actually be beyond Zefram, in a similar fashion to a basic warp drive not being beyond him.
A warp drive from the same era as the tricorder would be similarly an issue for him.
Then you don't know that one of the sales demonstrations involved shooting down simulated aircraft?
I should have remembered that your strategy appears to revolve around pissing off your opponents by, among other things, stating the bloody obvious, and making it as hard as possible to get any information out of you.
I'm going to make a wild stab, and say that this wasn't a federation weapon, Quark is "still" a lying bastard shylock, and you've got little or no evidence for this weapons existence in the federation arsenal ?
Firepower, size, durability?
Prove the existence of these anti-aircraft weapons in the federation arsenal, the number of shuttles, their weaponry and capability etc.
I again point out that this little niggle is based solely on the concept that you refuse to elaborate on, that the feddies will erect a defensive shield capable of repelling the bombardment of thousands of vessels who outgun feddy ships, in a matter of days or weeks, trapping everything on the planet while the orks impotently hammer away at the shield.
You should go read the BFG book, specifically the section which describes ork escorts as doubling as landing craft.
I already explained how so. How much detail do you need in order to follow?
words of one syllable.
Actually, some bits of evidence suggest they're actually bigger, and some smaller, and some suggest that they're about that size.
*shrug* Prove it.
It is obvious that loading a photon torpedo for bombardment - as seen in "Skin of Evil" - reduces its effectiveness at other tasks.
The skin of evil torpedo was a short lived bright flash. Not a gigaton detonation.
However, WH40K ships have minimal maneuverability and point defense.
How can you own the BFG book and believe that ?
OK, so the Orks won't have anything that stops photon torpedos.
Orks have powerfields, functionally similar to void shields, apart from not being as redundant on a Titan/superheavy scale as Imperial generators. (i.e. they burn out as opposed to resetting)
Photon torps have a shield around them, this basically makes them an energy projectile.
Single round meaning something like five minutes, correct?
No, I mean its literally a single "round" of ammunition, a single magma gun, one of half a dozen that will hit immediately after each other, etc.
By watching the E-D fire multiple torpedo spreads. By noting that we seem to average more than one torpedo per second fairly frequently. By watching the E-E drain its complete torpedo arsenal in what seems likely to be around five minutes of combat, ten at the most.
Pity they don't bother doing this torpedo dump against the borg huh ?
I'm getting fed up of asking, but could you provide evidence for the only relevent aspect of this, the complete torpedo dump ?
I find it a strong appeal for cavalry techniques and/or increasing the combat load of torpedos.
Whats this obsession with "cavalry techniques" ? What is it supposed to mean ?
Nevertheless, if two photon torpedo loads can account for a single WH40K torpedo point
They can't, didn't you read what I said ?
Firstly, these are projectiles wrapped in an energy field, so they won't be drifting through 40k shields as you desperately want them to.
Secondly, you are equating impacts of smaller magnitude, based on your dubious assumption of gigaton firepower for a torpedo, ( I mean come on, no fireball, so we'll measure the dust ?!), will be as effective as a single impact designed to explode inside a target.
Thirdly, You've decided apparently that no damage can come to the offensive ships, and that they can be in a position to fire hundreds of torpedos at their target without suffering reprisal, or being forced to evade etc.
In other words, you are grasping at straws.
If you want to take into account armor and go play with game mechanics
What exactly do you think you are doing ?
I certainly bloody don't want to fuck around with games mechanics, but when your argument is based around them, a rebuttal based on your misinterpretation is particularly apt.
Would you like me to work out with you precisely what we'd expect if we translated Trek units into WH40K terms? I think that's an interesting project, actually, given that I have some old Starfleet minis around.
Your idea of what trek is has been demonstrated aptly I think by this love of "cavalry" tactics you keep on wittering about.
I await the ludicrous comparisons of effectiveness you will come up with.
A direct hit would cripple any Federation starship. Only the Nova cannon has noticable proximity effects.
Glancing hits aren't proximity effects Spock.
I'd actually like you to help me nail down the Nova cannon's effects a lot more, even though it's not present in the Orkz vs Starfleet scenario. It's an interesting weapon WH40K wise.
What, so you can develop this little model of your own "preference" for 40k from it ?
"Cavalry" style hit and run attacks are seen in the Dominion war. It's one of the favored tactics of the Klingons.
So is the "cavalry" style of charging directly into combat, thats a favoured tactic of the Feds as well I should point out.
*snigger* Although I seem to remember Riker actually getting bitchy about being involved in wargames.
