The Lost Scrolls: Uber Firepower calculated for Star Wars

[Mike DiCenso]

The RoTJ novelization unfortunately does not give a specific starting time for the DS2 constructions. However, on the very first page, it interestingly enough states that "many years" had passed since events of ANH and the first Death Star's destruction. Many pro-Wars types assume that only 2-5 years had passed, but the RoTJ novelization's use of "many years" suggest that nothing less than 5 years had gone by. Given the apparent ages of the characters, probably no more than 10 years tops had gone by, but it most certainly increases the time span between when the first DS had been destroyed, and when the second one either began construction, or had taken that long a period of time.

This suggests that building up the necessary resources or other long-lead work takes a greater period of time than the pro-Wars people would like us to think it does.

Given that the DS2 was only about 60% structurely complete by the time of the Battle of Endor, and then only after Vader had to come in and whip up Moff Jerjerrod and his personel into speeding up the superlaser's operational status, among other things, suggests that the second battlestation was still a good long while from being finished.

As WILGA suggests, there was probably an intention to build at least two, and the EU supports the idea of several additional battlestations of the Death Star class were to be built beyond the second one, and so we might presume that a great deal of systems work and parallel construction work might have been under way before the the events of ANH to facilitate that goal.

This is not so unusual in real-life, where again as WILGA has pointed out, ships (also aircraft, spacecraft, ect) are often built in a staggered manner, with the prototype vessel still being outfitted as the hull (or airframe) of the second is started.
-Mike

[watchdog]

As I recall reading long ago, Death Star II construction was begun almost immedeatly after the destruction of the first, which is four years before the events of ROTJ. I believe this was mentioned in the chronology, MW makes the assumption that because of the wording in the oppening scrawl that the DS 2 reached the level it was at within six months of construction time, I dont buy it.

[Socar]

According to what he has written on his "SW Industrial Capacity" page, it was Shadows of the Empire that references the six month period for DS2 construction.

[watchdog]

Well I only recall the one, I dont really visit his site much anymore.

[Who is like God arbour]

If the whole DS2 project was quite advanced, they would have simply not used the verb begin, under a specific grammatical tense.

This is present perfect, often used, notably in English, to describe a recent past.
The use of the verb begin just emphasizes just how new this is.

I'm not convinced.
Maybe that is because I would say it similar in my own language. And indeed, the German translation of the opening crawl confirms my own understanding of that line.
I don't see, that the English verb begin indicates a recent start. If that would be the case, it would be unnecessary to use in addition recent. It would be tautological. But the fact, that you use it, indicates to me, that even in your own understanding, the verb begin allone doesn't say anything about the time, when what was begun.

Maybe those, who have English as their mother tongue can say, how they interpret that line.

According to what he has written on his "SW Industrial Capacity" page, it was Shadows of the Empire that references the six month period for DS2 construction.

• • • • • Since we know that DS2's volume is 3.8E17 m³ and a GCS's volume is 6.5E6 m³, we can easily calculate that DS2 is equivalent in volume to more than fifty billion GCS's. Approximately 60% of DS2 was completed in the six month period before ROTJ (ref. Shadows of the Empire). Therefore, if the Federation had comparable industrial production to the Empire, it should have been able to build 35 billion GCS's in six months, or 2200 GCS's per second. This is obviously not the case, therefore the Federation has at best a miniscule fraction (<1 millionth of a percentage point) of the industrial capacity of the Empire.

It's pity that he has neither given an exact source nor an exact quote. Wookipedia gives 9 search results for Shadows of the Empire. And even if I would know, where to look, I wouldn't know on which side I have to look (presuming he is speaking of a book). That's inacceptable - even under the rules of his own board where you have to prove anything. He should have given the exact source [which book and which page] and the quotation, from which he concludes that the second Death Star was completed to 60 percent in only six months.

[SailorSaturn13]

If the whole DS2 project was quite advanced, they would have simply not used the verb begin, under a specific grammatical tense.

This is present perfect, often used, notably in English, to describe a recent past.
The use of the verb begin just emphasizes just how new this is.

I'm not convinced.
Maybe that is because I would say it similar in my own language. And indeed, the German translation of the opening crawl confirms my own understanding of that line.
I don't see, that the English verb begin indicates a recent start. If that would be the case, it would be unnecessary to use in addition recent. It would be tautological. But the fact, that you use it, indicates to me, that even in your own understanding, the verb begin allone doesn't say anything about the time, when what was begun.

Maybe those, who have English as their mother tongue can say, how they interpret that line.

According to what he has written on his "SW Industrial Capacity" page, it was Shadows of the Empire that references the six month period for DS2 construction.

• • • • • Since we know that DS2's volume is 3.8E17 m³ and a GCS's volume is 6.5E6 m³, we can easily calculate that DS2 is equivalent in volume to more than fifty billion GCS's. Approximately 60% of DS2 was completed in the six month period before ROTJ (ref. Shadows of the Empire). Therefore, if the Federation had comparable industrial production to the Empire, it should have been able to build 35 billion GCS's in six months, or 2200 GCS's per second. This is obviously not the case, therefore the Federation has at best a miniscule fraction (<1 millionth of a percentage point) of the industrial capacity of the Empire.

It's pity that he has neither given an exact source nor an exact quote. Wookipedia gives 9 search results for Shadows of the Empire. And even if I would know, where to look, I wouldn't know on which side I have to look (presuming he is speaking of a book). That's inacceptable - even under the rules of his own board where you have to prove anything. He should have given the exact source [which book and which page] and the quotation, from which he concludes that the second Death Star was completed to 60 percent in only six months.

"The Empire has began" indeed means it was started only recently - ist so.

Translation: "Luke weiss nicht, dass das Imperium einen zweiten Todesstern zu bauen begann" - an if it would be for a long time, it would be "The Empire has been consstruction another Death Star".

[Who is like God arbour]

"The Empire has began" indeed means it was started only recently - ist so.

Translation: "Luke weiss nicht, dass das Imperium einen zweiten Todesstern zu bauen begann" - an if it would be for a long time, it would be "The Empire has been consstruction another Death Star".

1. It's not >>has began<< but >>has begun<< It's the past participle.
2. But it's still present perfect simple, they have begun the construction in the past but it is still ongoing. How long in the past (only recently or a long time ago) is not answered. It can be used equally if they would have started the construction only recently or already many years ago as long as the construction is still ongoing.
3. >>The Empire has been consstruction another Death Star<< is - as far as my understanding from English grammar goes - wrong. >>Construction<< is not a verb.
   If at all, it has to be >>The Empire has been constructing another Death Star<< And that would be Present perfect progressive.
4. I know the German language. What are you trying to say by providing a translation?
5. By the way, I would translate it: >>Luke weiß nicht, dass das Imperium mit dem Bau eines zweiten Todessterns begonnen hat<<. That tense matches more the English original >>has begun<<.
6. The German opening crawl:
   • • • • Luke Skywalker ist auf
           seinen Heimatplaneten Tatooine
           zurückgekehrt, um seinen
           Freund Han Solo den Klauen
           des üblen Gangsters Jabba the
           Hutt zu entreissen.
           
           
           Luke ahnt nicht, dass das
           Galaktische Imperium im
           Geheimen mit dem Bau einer
           neuen, bewaffneten Raumstation
           begonnen hat - tödlicher noch,
           als der gefürchtete erste Todesstern.
           
           
           Mit dieser absoluten Waffe
           naht das nahe Ende für die
           kleine Schar von Rebellen und
           ihrem Kampf, der Galaxis die
           Freiheit wiederzugeben....

[Mr. Oragahn]

Present perfect is considered a present tense, and with the conjunction of a verb that, itself, includes a reference to time.

If the Death Star 2 had been in construction for quite some time, the scroll would simply be easier and more logical when worded thusly:


Little does Luke know that
the GALACTIC EMPIRE is
secretly building a new
armored space station even
more powerful than the first
dreaded Death Star.


or

Little does Luke know that
the GALACTIC EMPIRE has
already been secretly building
a new armored space station
even more powerful than the
first dreaded Death Star.

[Who is like God arbour]

The present perfect tense is a perfect tense used to express action that has been completed with respect to the present. But only the resulting state is in the present, while refering to a subject's past actions or states. That another wording could maybe describe the situation more exactly, is irrelevant for the meaning one can derive from the used tense.

But your wordings wouldn't be better or more logical:

• >> [...] that the GALACTIC EMPIRE is secretly building a new [...] space station [...] << would be wrong:
  • >> [...] is building [...] << is present progressive. It describes the simple engagement in a present activity, with the focus on action in progress "at this very moment". But meanwhile the building is not secret anymore. Only the beginning of the construction was secret.
  >> [...] that the GALACTIC EMPIRE has already been secretly building a new [...] space station [...] << would also be wrong:
  • >> [...] has been building [...] << is present perfect progressive, only a derivation from present perfect simple. It's used for unbroken action in the past which continues right up to the present. But with the wording from you, the meaning would be wrong. Because the building was not secret anymore.
  The Emperor has allowed that the Alliance has learned about the second Death Star long before the movie has started. That's why it would be wrong to say, that the construction or building of the second Death Star was at the start of the movie still secret.

[Mr. Oragahn]

>> [...] that the GALACTIC EMPIRE is secretly building a new [...] space station [...] << would be wrong:
>> [...] is building [...] << is present progressive. It describes the simple engagement in a present activity, with the focus on action in progress "at this very moment". But meanwhile the building is not secret anymore. Only the beginning of the construction was secret.

It doesn't mean the project is not a secret anymore. On the contrary. It precisely says that it's doing it (building), in secret.

>> [...] that the GALACTIC EMPIRE has already been secretly building a new [...] space station [...] << would also be wrong:

>> [...] has been building [...] << is present perfect progressive, only a derivation from present perfect simple. It's used for unbroken action in the past which continues right up to the present. But with the wording from you, the meaning would be wrong. Because the building was not secret anymore.

This sentence does not make the project loose its secrecy. At worst, it might hint that it's well advanced, possibly finished or not.

At this point, there's nothing conclusive. The global idea is that the DS2 project is not something old. It may have started one or two years ago, maybe three or four if you stretch it, but certainly not as a side project to the DS1, even with a delay of a few years.

The whole tense and the verb form a composition that is much closer to the present than to a distant past time.

[Who is like God arbour]

I'm not sure, what you are trying to say.

• >> [...] that the GALACTIC EMPIRE is secretly building a new [...] space station [...] << would be wrong:
  • >> [...] is building [...] << is present progressive. It describes the simple engagement in a present activity, with the focus on action in progress "at this very moment". But meanwhile the building is not secret anymore. Only the beginning of the construction was secret.

It doesn't mean the project is not a secret anymore. On the contrary. It precisely says that it's doing it (building), in secret.

If it was said, that >> [...] the GALACTIC EMPIRE is secretly building a new [...] space station [...] <<, it would mean, that the GALACTIC EMPIRE is at the very moment the movie has begun still secretly building a new space station. But at that time, it was no secret anymore. The Emperor has allowed that the Alliance has learned about the second Death Star.

• >> [...] that the GALACTIC EMPIRE has already been secretly building a new [...] space station [...] << would also be wrong:
  • >> [...] has been building [...] << is present perfect progressive, only a derivation from present perfect simple. It's used for unbroken action in the past which continues right up to the present. But with the wording from you, the meaning would be wrong. Because the building was not secret anymore.

This sentence does not make the project loose its secrecy. At worst, it might hint that it's well advanced, possibly finished or not.

In no way would that sentence hint that the construction may be finished. That's the point of present perfect progressive. The actions or states continues right up to the present. But because the second Death Star was no secret anymore, its building at the beginning of the movie was no secret. Hence it would be wrong to say in the opening crawl of >> Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi << that the GALACTIC EMPIRE is still building the second Death Star in secret. But that's what your sentence is saying.

At this point, there's nothing conclusive.

The original wordings is conclusive. The Empire has started to construct the Death Star in the past. At that time, it was still secret. The construction is not finished yet. But it is no secret anymore.

The global idea is that the DS2 project is not something old. It may have started one or two years ago, maybe three or four if you stretch it, but certainly not as a side project to the DS1, even with a delay of a few years.

That's exactly the question I am asking. From where do you take that time span? Why one or two or three or four years? Why not ten, fifteen or twenty years?
The opening crawl of >> Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi << does not refer to the time, the first Death Star was destroyed.

The whole tense and the verb form a composition that is much closer to the present than to a distant past time.

There is no rating in the tense. You don't use a certain tense if something happens only two years ago and another tense if it would have happened twenty years ago. If the construction of the second Death Star has begun in secret twenty years ago - but would now not be secret anymore - one would phrase that sentence as it was phrased in the original opening crawl of >> Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi <<.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'm saying that if the crawl wanted us to know that the project had been going on for years, the wording would have been precisely very different.
It would give an obvious clue as to how long the DS2 has been under construction.

The crawl, as it is, would be the most awkward formulation to be chosen to describe an event that started a or several decades ago.

• Luke Skywalker has returned to
  his home planet of Tatooine in
  an attempt to rescue his
  friend Han Solo from the
  clutches of the vile gangster
  Jabba the Hutt.

We know that he didn't return years ago.
This is an example used to described a relatively recent event.

• Little does Luke know that the
  GALACTIC EMPIRE has secretly
  begun construction on a new
  armored space station even
  more powerful than the first
  dreaded Death Star.

When I read that part, I just can't see how one could even one second imagine that it can refer to something that started ten years ago. Or even 5 years ago.

And if you think about it, if the DS2 was already being assembled since ANH, the novelization would have mentionned it. The omniscient author would have.

[Mike DiCenso]

Actually, you don't have to go to such a black and white interpretation of the opening scroll. There is no reason that individual long-lead fabrication of parts and systems could have taken up to a decade, while the actual assembly construction at Endor only have take 6 months to a year or so. Again, this sort of thing happens in real life with ships, aircraft, and spacecraft.
-Mike

[SailorSaturn13]

"The Empire has began" indeed means it was started only recently - ist so.

Translation: "Luke weiss nicht, dass das Imperium einen zweiten Todesstern zu bauen begann" - an if it would be for a long time, it would be "The Empire has been consstruction another Death Star".

1. It's not >>has began<< but >>has begun<< It's the past participle.
2. But it's still present perfect simple, they have begun the construction in the past but it is still ongoing. How long in the past (only recently or a long time ago) is not answered. It can be used equally if they would have started the construction only recently or already many years ago as long as the construction is still ongoing.
3. >>The Empire has been consstruction another Death Star<< is - as far as my understanding from English grammar goes - wrong. >>Construction<< is not a verb.
   If at all, it has to be >>The Empire has been constructing another Death Star<< And that would be Present perfect progressive.
4. I know the German language. What are you trying to say by providing a translation?
5. By the way, I would translate it: >>Luke weiß nicht, dass das Imperium mit dem Bau eines zweiten Todessterns begonnen hat<<. That tense matches more the English original >>has begun<<.
6. The German opening crawl:
   • • • • Luke Skywalker ist auf
           seinen Heimatplaneten Tatooine
           zurückgekehrt, um seinen
           Freund Han Solo den Klauen
           des üblen Gangsters Jabba the
           Hutt zu entreissen.
           
           
           Luke ahnt nicht, dass das
           Galaktische Imperium im
           Geheimen mit dem Bau einer
           neuen, bewaffneten Raumstation
           begonnen hat - tödlicher noch,
           als der gefürchtete erste Todesstern.
           
           
           Mit dieser absoluten Waffe
           naht das nahe Ende für die
           kleine Schar von Rebellen und
           ihrem Kampf, der Galaxis die
           Freiheit wiederzugeben....

To 1 and 3 - yes these are typos. I meant "begun" and constructing. But the point in 3 still stands - if the construction started long ago the words would be "has been constructing a new station.." - English hat nicht umsonst 16 Zeitformen! Auch die Deutsche Version waere anders - es waere "Luke ahnt nicht, dass das
Galaktische Imperium eine neue Raumstation baut...".

"Has begun" impliziert, dass das vor nicht allzu langer Zeit passierte.

[Who is like God arbour]

We agree, that the used tense in the opening crawl is present perfect simple - and that in the first and the second paragraph.

But, as I have said, there is no rating in the tense. You don't use a certain tense if something happens only two years ago and another tense if it would have happened twenty years ago. You use present perfect simple, if you want to express action that has been completed with respect to the present. But only the resulting state is in the present, while refering to a subject's past actions or states. How long ago the subject's past actions or states are is not relevant for present perfect simple but only the fact, that the resulting state is in the present.

Indeed, the tense of the first paragraph gives no clue, how long Luke is already on Tatooine. We know, that he has returned to it - but not how long ago. And because the tense present perfect simple was used, we can conclude, that he is still on Tatooine.

We conclude, that he has returned only a short time ago because - from what we know from the movie - it would be difficult to imagine, that he was already a long time on Tatooine to rescue Han Solo. But that conclusion is only possible with the knowledge we have from the context of the whole movie. Neither the used tense nor the wordings alone support that possibility more than the possibility that he is already many years on Tatooine.

It's the same case with the construction of the second Death Star. We know that it has begun in secret. But because present perfect simple was used, we can conclude, that the construction is not finished yet. But because the verb in that sentence was not construction but begin, we know that the beginning of the construction is over. The beginning of the construction of the Death Star is in the past and because a beginning is a zero time event, it is already completed. Only the construction is not completed yet.

We don't know, how long ago the beginning of the construction was. The used tense doesn't answer that question. It can be two years ago or twenty years ago. In both cases, one wouldn't use another tense. Or how would you formulate both cases? What tense would you use if the beginning of the construction of the second Death Star lies twenty years in the past and not only two years?

And because the second paragraph doesn't directly refer to time span of the first paragraph, we can't conclude, that both time spans are similiar long. All we know is, that the beginning of the construction of the second Death Star lies in the past and that its construction is still ongoing.

We know furthermore, that the beginning of the construction was secret. But that doesn't mean, that the rest of the construction is still a secret. The fact, that secret was used in conjunction with the beginning and not with the construction suggest, that the construction is not secret anymore.

It would be another case, if >> the Empire has begun a secret construction on a new space station << would have been said. In that case, we would have to assume that the construction is still secret. But, while seeing the movie, we would find that such a statement would be wrong because the construction was at the beginning of the movie no secret anymore.

If you would read the opening crawl impartial and unprejudiced while ignoring what you already knows from the movie, you will notice, that there is nothing that says, that the construction of the Death Star has begun only recently.

But try to formulate another opening crawl, that is not wrong! An opening crawl, that states, that the beginning of the construction lies in the past. That at that time, the construction was still a secret but that now, it is no secret anymore.

The wording >> has been constructing a new space station << would be insufficient because it says nothing about the secret beginning of the construction of the space station. But that information is important for someone, who doesn't know Star Wars yet. Why were the rebels surprised and why haven't they tried to destroy the second Death Star long before its construction was that advanced? Because its construction was a secret and the rebels have learned about it only recently.

And why would the omniscient author have mentioned in >> Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope << that there was already the construction of a second Death Star underway? He has forgotten to mention, that Darth Vader is the father of Leia, who he has tortured or that he is the farther of Luke, who he has tried to shoot down.

And, SailorSaturn13, if you say, that English has 16 tenses, do you realy mean 16 tenses while considering the grammatical aspects? Aspect is a somewhat difficult concept to grasp for the speakers of most modern Indo-European languages, because they tend to conflate the concept of aspect with the concept of tense. Viewed in the strictest linguistic sense, English has only two tenses, marked in the verb alone: nonpast tense (present tense) and past tense. Only some linguists consider will a future marker and give English two more tenses, future tense and future-in-past tense, which are shown by will and would respectively. That's only four tenses.