The "Outrageous Okona" Falsehood

[Who is like God arbour]

W.I.L.G.A wrote:

And if I know that that person knows that a weak weapon wouldn't be a threat to me, I would assume that that person is directing a weapon at me, which is powerful enough that it can do damage to me. To direct a weapon at me, that is no thread to me, if I would be able to kill that someone, is very dangerous. That act could provoke a vindicative action for my part.

Just because the Enterprize's sensors are good enough to detect the power level of other ships, doesn't mean that all sensors do.
As I previously stated, the ships in this episode looked particularily less advanced technologically than Federation ships.
So it is also logical to assume their sensors aren't as advanced.
The ship locking lasers may have thought that if it fired while the Enterprise's shields were down, they might damage it.

And since we know, from canon, that lasers precede phasers in weapons devellopment.
It would be natural for someone who knew Federation history to assume that, since the vessel was sporting lasers, they probably weren't advanced enough to damage the Enterprise.

To be honest, I haven't really understood what you are trying to say, especially in the last part of your post.

But it seem that you have missed the part in my post, where I have shown, that Picard hasn't known the specifications of that ship.

And it seem that you have missed the part, in which I have explained, that the interpretation of these lines should only happen, if the circumstances are conclusively established because these are relevant for the interpretation.

I will not attempt to interpret these lines further as long as it is not established what the navigation shield can do, could possible do or what would impossible for it. I don't put the cart before the horse.

[Who is like God arbour]

He says the beam travels at light speed. Since he's been cautious, or not, by only talking about an energy beam, we may be able to fit something in.
That said, it would logically be light. All EM radiations travel at c, and all of them can be physically described as light. What type of EM radiation is another problem, but not really relevant here.

The problem lies in the claim of a weapon which can fire at c.

The amusing note is how your typical wars wanker says that a superlaser is a turbolaser on steroids, and yet, even a superlaser, which range wouldn't need to change, which would not need to be dialed down as far as the DSI was only concerned about blasting worlds, a beam which its target couldn't dodge, and above all, which would not need to be seen at all ("bolt" 200% useless), still travels, in the end, at only a fraction of c (requires several frames to cover roughly 6 planetary diameters).

Yes, his explanation is most stupid. I'd like them to look at ROTJ and provide an explanation as to why some weapons, on Jabba's barge, were destroyed even before Luke's lightsabre cut through them.

... hey, isn't there already a lightspeed turbolaser argument thread or something here?

1. He doesn't say laser.
2. His description doesn't fit to a laser
3. Not each light beam is a laser
4. Not only electromagnetic radiation propagtes with c
5. His explanation, that there is an energy beam that propagates with c doesn't mean that it is a laser
6. His explanation, that there is an energy beam that propagates with c is obviously fallacious [1]
7. If you want to debatte if there are light speed turbo lasers, please use the thread, Nonamer has already linked to.
8. If you want to debate if Saxton means laser while speaking from energy beam, please use either the aforementioned thread or create a new thread.

[Kane Starkiller]

Several points.

1. If navigational deflectors bend light why don't we see it? Space around a starship never appeared distorted unless a cloaking device was used.

2. The fact that a gravitational field can bend light around itself doesn't in any way mean that any laser beam fired on it will be completely bent. In the very simulation you provided black hole is still black therefore if you fire your laser beam directly into the object it will still hit the target.

3. If Federation ships are immune to lasers why are stars so dangerous to them? In Descent for example Borg ship which was tactically superior to Enterprise couldn't get close to photosphere and Enterprise survived for as long as it did only due to a new kind of shields and even then only for minutes.

4. Even light carries momentum and a 10,000 megaton laser beam will have a momentum of 1.39*10^10 kgm/s which is equivalent to a 140,000 ton object moving at 1km/s. That is more than Jem'Hadar attack ships which we know can slice ships in half in a collision. So even assuming that navigational deflector themselves are somehow magically impervious to laser beams the jolt caused by their momentum will tear up the ship by itself.


Finally a reality check.
Imagine that instead of a starship a crew is driving around in a tank through Africa. Then a group of natives comes out and starts throwing rocks at the tank.

"Captain, they are now throwing rocks on us."
"Rocks?"
"Yes sir."
"Rocks can't even make a dent on our armor. Don't they know that?"

Now would anyone in their right mind assume that 10m wide rock moving at 10km/s won't be able to destroy the tank? Of course not. Captain of our tank merely noted that people were using hands to throw the rocks and that there are thus strict limits on how big those rocks can be and how fast they can move. And if this was an episode of JAG no one would think of suggesting that tanks are somehow impervious to rocks within JAG universe but for some reason when it comes to Star Trek people tend to assume that every line of dialouge must be all inclusive. Why is that?

[Who is like God arbour]

Each single point was already adressed.

Read the thread!

I could answer each point of yours with a quote from my own posts.

But I won't do it. Read the hread!

[Praeothmin]

W.I.L.G.A wrote:

But it seem that you have missed the part in my post, where I have shown, that Picard hasn't known the specifications of that ship.

I have read your entire post and have seen where you (validly, I might add) state that Picard did not know the specs of the ship.

Now, let me try to be as simple as possible:
Picard sees a ship still using older propulsion technology, smaller then the Enterprise, and said to be armed with lasers.
He probably concluded, as I would have, that the ship couldn't be dangerous.

And, as Kane Starkiller said (and I agree with him):

Imagine that instead of a starship a crew is driving around in a tank through Africa. Then a group of natives comes out and starts throwing rocks at the tank.

"Captain, they are now throwing rocks on us."
"Rocks?"
"Yes sir."
"Rocks can't even make a dent on our armor. Don't they know that?"

Now would anyone in their right mind assume that 10m wide rock moving at 10km/s won't be able to destroy the tank? Of course not. Captain of our tank merely noted that people were using hands to throw the rocks and that there are thus strict limits on how big those rocks can be and how fast they can move.

[Who is like God arbour]

I change that example from Kane Starkiller:

• • Imagine that instead of a starship a crew is walking around in an AT-ST through the forrests of Endor.
    Then a group of natives comes out and starts directing arrows at the AT-ST.
    
    • • "Captain, they are now locking wooden sticks on us."
        
        "Wooden sticks?"
        
        "Yes sir."
        
        "Small wooden sticks can't even make a dent on our armor. They should know that? If I only knew, how large these wooden sticks are. I could ask him if he can see, how large these wooden sticks are. But no, why should they have wooden sticks, that are big enough to make a dent on our armour?
        No, they are to be about to attack us and although - even retarted as they are - they should be able to recognise that small wooden sticks can't impossible make a dent on our armor, I see no reason to assume that they have big wooden sticks.
        No, I simply assume that they are stupid or on a suicide mission and nothing they can do could endanger us.
        And if I'm mistaken - shit happens - its only a small AT-ST with only a crew consisting of 2 persons. I can take that risk."

• • • • • • • 
              
              
              
              
              
              
              
              

Now would anyone in their right mind, who has the responsibility for over 2000 persons and a ship, take a risk and assume that someone who is executing offensive measures, would have only weapons that are obviously inapt to do harm and not consider it possible, that this someone could have an ace up its sleeve and could maybe do damage with its weapons?

I don't see, how Picard - only from the look of that ship - could have recognized how much energy its reactors are continuously providing nor if there are any batteries or akkumulators, which could have stored energy to power up its armament. He has violated the Starfleet regulation, that call for yellow alert (and therwith for raised shields). I think he was pretty sure, that that ship can't do damage to the Enterprise - even with the few informations he has had about that ship: its look and that it is equipped with lasers.

• • Picard at his court martial:
    
    • • Picard:
        • "I have ignored the regulations and have risked the life of every person under my command because I couldn't imagine that that ship could create powerful enough lasers to penetrate the navigation shield."
        Prosecutor:
        • "I try to understand it, Cpt. Picard.
          Why have you thought that it could be impossibe that that ship isn't able to create powerful enough lasers to penetrate the navigation shield of the now destroyed Enterprise? What were your indications for that assumption?"
        Picard:
        • "Oh, they have loocked too primitive"
        
        
        Prosecutor:
        • "They have loocked too primitive? And that was all your indications and reason enough to ignore a Starfleet regulation and risk your crew and your ship?
          Surly you must have let given you from your now dead officers specifications of that ship, for example how much energy its reactors were continuously providing or if there were any batteries or akkumulators, which could have stored energy to power up its armament?"
        
        
        Picard:
        • "No, I have not known, how much energy its reactors were continuously providing or if there were any batteries or akkumulators, which could have stored energy to power up its armament. Sure, I could have let me given that information before making my decision to drop the main shields. But why should I have waited with my decission for that easily available information? I was already convinced that they could impossible power a laser high enough to endanger the Enterprise. Sometimes a man has to do what a man thinks is right."
        Prosecutor:
        • "But the sensor logs of the Enterprise have shown - and the events have affirmed - that there were indeed some kind of akkumulators, which had stored energy for one single 200 GT laser shoot, that has finally destroyed the unshielded Enterprise. If you would have waited with your decision until the sensor readings were analyzed, you would have known that. Would you have made the same decision."
        
        
        Picard:
        • "No, obviously not."
        Prosecutor:
        • "Do you think, that if you wouldn't have ordered to drop the main shield, that your crew would be still alive?"
        Picard:
        • "What shall I say to that. Shit happens. Sure, the crew would be still alive. That's obviously: the main shield could have deflected that 200 GT beam easily. I have made a wrong decision. I have taken a risk."
        
        
        Prosecutor:
        • "You just said, that you have taken a risk. Does that mean that you were aware about the possibility that that ship could maybe - even if unlikely - create a powerfull enough laser beam to destroy the Enterprise - or were you convinced that it is impossible that that ship could damage the Enterprise."
        
        
        Picard:
        • "I was convinced that it is impossible that that ship could damage the Enterprise. You are right, if you mean that I was not aware that I'm taking a risk."
        Prosecutor:
        • "And why do you think, Starfleet establish regulations for exactly such situations"
        Picard:
        • "To annoy me?"
        Prosecutor:
        • "I have no further questions."

[Kane Starkiller]

That provokes the question, why we are able to see a ship, if all light is bend around it. But the answer to this is simple. Not all light is bend around a ship by the navigation shield.
The navigation shield identifies threats to the ship like space debris, asteroids, microscopic particles and other objects and deflect them. That doesn't mean that the navigation shield is creating a constant field which is active even if there is no such threat. That would be inefficient. It would be far more efficient if the navigation shield effect only that object, that are identified as a thread.
Normal light is no thread to the ship. But a powerfull laser could be a thread. And when the navigation shield is detecting such a laser, it creates a gravitational lens and deflect the laser beam away from the ship. For that it has enough time, because a laser propagates only with lightspeed. But the sensors of Starfleet are much faster than light.

Navigational shields is used simply to clear away navigational hazards and now you are inventing all these neat capabilities of shield switching conveniently on and off when it "identifies a threat". How exactly does it bend light that is heading straight towards the ship? The gravity will simply pull it even closer to the ship.

That provokes a further question: Why could we see that normal electromagnetic radiation could endanger the Enterprise and its crew? But the answer to this is also very simple. Such a radiation is diffuse. It's far more difficult to deflect such diffuse radiation that is coming from all-around than a single beam that is coming from only one direction. The navigation shield may not be able to hide a ship in a space pocket, what would be necessary to protect it from such from all directions coming radiation.

It is more difficult to deflect concentrated than diffuse radiation? I would sure like to see some reasoning behind this since gravity is an area effect force therefore all that matters is intensity.

And you haven't adressed points 2 and 4.

I don't see, how Picard - only from the look of that ship - could have recognized how much energy its reactors are continuously providing nor if there are any batteries or akkumulators, which could have stored energy to power up its armament. He has violated the Starfleet regulation, that call for yellow alert (and therwith for raised shields). I think he was pretty sure, that that ship can't do damage to the Enterprise - even with the few informations he has had about that ship: its look and that it is equipped with lasers.

He has also specifically ordered Enterprise NOT to raise shields in Nemesis so as to not appear aggressive. He is careless. What can I say. This still doesn't change the fact that to interpret his his statement as all inclusive is ridiculous. NOTHING can withstand UNLIMITED amounts of energy because no system is 100% effective.


Oh and by the way try no to let your posts to explode into huge chunks of text and images that beat upon a single point over and over and over again.

[Who is like God arbour]

Are you sure you understand the princible of a Gravitational lensing?

If you would, you would see that your questions and statements are obsolete and already answered.

Electromagnetic radiation is always following space-time geodesic. The path of electromagnetic radiation is bent in the exact same way as the geodesics at a space-time curvature. It is absolutely irrelevant how strong that electromagnetic radiation is. Strong electromagnetic radiation is following the geodesics exactly the same way as weak electromagnetic radiation.

We know that Starfleet has the ability to curve space time. The whole warp drive is based on that ability. They are creating artificial gravity and are able to create anti-gravity. They are able to send graviton beams with a velocity faster than light - or at least faster than they are flying while at warp. Such a graviton beam could also be used to create gravitational lenses that would deflect a laser beam.

But such a beam would not create a space pocket what would necessary to bend the geodesic of space time around the ship so that all electromacnetic radiation, following that geodesic, can't reach the ship. Such a pocket is a whole other affair than a gravitational lense. But such a pocket would be an effective protection against each kind of electromagnetic radiation - regardless how strong.

While others have said, that it would be theoretical impossible that the navigation shields can deflect even the strongest lasers, I have only shown that it is theoretical possible.

With that I have proven that these, who are saying that it is theoretical impossible, are wrong.






If you want to compare the situation in "Nemesis" and "The Outrageous Okona" you should do it right.
There are differences in both situations which explain why he has choosen, fully known about the risk he is taking, in "Nemesis" to let the shields deactivated. He has kown that they could have been destroyed and have wanted to activate the shield. But his mission has forbidden that.
In "The Outrageous Okona" he was convinced that lasers are no thread to the Enterprise and the regulations have demanded that he activate the shields.
Both situations are quite contrary.

[Kane Starkiller]

Are you sure you understand the princible of a Gravitational lensing?

If you would, you would see that your questions and statements are obsolete and already answered.

Electromagnetic radiation is always following space-time geodesic. The path of electromagnetic radiation is bent in the exact same way as the geodesics at a space-time curvature. It is absolutely irrelevant how strong that electromagnetic radiation is. Strong electromagnetic radiation is following the geodesics exactly the same way as weak electromagnetic radiation.

I understand the basic principles unlike you who just repeats their names and thinks he has proven something. Gravitational fields won't bend all light that hits. You have seen that black hole is still black right? Light that moves directly into it stays there. It isn't magically bent.

We know that Starfleet has the ability to curve space time. The whole warp drive is based on that ability. They are creating artificial gravity and are able to create anti-gravity. They are able to send graviton beams with a velocity faster than light - or at least faster than they are flying while at warp. Such a graviton beam could also be used to create gravitational lenses that would deflect a laser beam.
But such a beam would not create a space pocket what would necessary to bend the geodesic of space time around the ship so that all electromacnetic radiation, following that geodesic, can't reach the ship. Such a pocket is a whole other affair than a gravitational lense. But such a pocket would be an effective protection against each kind of electromagnetic radiation - regardless how strong.

Aha so it's not actually gravitational lens but "space pocket". In other words technobabble of your invention. And by all means explain how it would protect from a light source no matter how strong. You keep ignoring that light carries momentum. You do realize that momentum will be inevitably transferred to whoever is projecting the antigravity field right?
Oh and by the way if they have these fancy antigravity fields which can completely bend light why don't they use it against all threats? You do realize that light is the least susceptible to gravitational fields because of it's speed and no mass. Any planet can "bend" comets and sattelites around it's gravitational field but it takes a black hole to do it to light. So if they can bend light why don't they bend any kind of matter or particle around the ship?

While others have said, that it would be theoretical impossible that the navigation shields can deflect even the strongest lasers, I have only shown that it is theoretical possible.

No you haven't. You mumbled something about gravitons creating "pockets of space" that bend light without any explanation.

With that I have proven that these, who are saying that it is theoretical impossible, are wrong.

You won't find a scientist who will say that any energy field or matter can resist infinite amounts of energy and you only show your own glaring scientific ignorance with this statement.

If you want to compare the situation in "Nemesis" and "The Outrageous Okona" you should do it right.
There are differences in both situations which explain why he has choosen, fully known about the risk he is taking, in "Nemesis" to let the shields deactivated. He has kown that they could have been destroyed and have wanted to activate the shield. But his mission has forbidden that.
In "The Outrageous Okona" he was convinced that lasers are no thread to the Enterprise and the regulations have demanded that he activate the shields.
Both situations are quite contrary.

So how are the examples contrary? He had fully known he is risking his ship and he did it anyway. But you are claiming that since Picard didn't consider that small primitive ship a threat that that MUST mean Enterprise is immune to lasers rather than Picard simply being willing to risk it.
Besides this is hardly the only time he refused to raise shields in order not to appear "aggressive".

[Who is like God arbour]

Are you not able to read what I have written. I have outright said that the navigation shield is not creating a space pocket but merely a gravitational lense.

It's obviously that you don't understand the princible of Gravitational lensing.

And if you are not willing to read what I have really written to that and aren't willing to read the sides, to which I have provided links, you will never understand it. And to be honest, I'm not willing to do more to explain it to you.

The only thing I'm still doing is to advice you to read the following sides:
Gravitational lens, especially the part Explanation in terms of space-time curvature,
Spacetime and
Geodesic (general relativity).

If you don't understand, that gravitational lenses act equally on all kinds of electromagnetic radiation, not just visible light or weak electromagnetic radiation, I can't help you.

Maybe someome else is willing to explain it to you.

[Kane Starkiller]

He he he. You are so funny pretending to know what you are talking about and posting links to wikipedia articles as some kind of evidence without bothering to answer any of my points.
Answer how they can handle momentum.
Answer why doesn't the gravitational lens protect them from ALL attacks since light is the least affected by gravity and if they can deflect light with their gravity field they should be able to deflect anything.

[Who is like God arbour]

These points were already adressed.

Read the thread!

I could answer each point of yours with a quote from my own posts.

But I won't do it. Read the hread!

[Kane Starkiller]

Nice try. No you haven't.
Let me reiterate:

Answer how they can handle momentum.
Answer why doesn't the gravitational lens protect them from ALL attacks since light is the least affected by gravity and if they can deflect light with their gravity field they should be able to deflect anything.

Nowhere have you addressed this.

[Who is like God arbour]

That's my 400th post as member of that board.

And I will take the liberty to violate this time a rule of that board and hope, that Jedi Master Spock is forgiving me.

You, Kane Starkiller, are not only an idiot, but you are lazy, stupid and uneducated. Or you only pretend to be a lazy, stupid and uneducated idiot.

Answer how they can handle momentum.

• • If the navigation shield works for example with gravity or is able to curve space in another way, the power of a laser, that is not absorbed by the shield, but deflected, is irrelevant. Deflect means to bend down or turn aside, especially from a straight course or fixed direction. It doesn't mean to absorb energy.
    A flight path of a laser - regardless of its power - is bend by a gravitational source always in the same way and magnitude. The cause of that is the curvature of space and time which is what we sense as gravitation. A laser - regardless of its power - is always following the geodesics in space-time. Thats why only a certain amount of energy is needed to curve space-time but the power of the laser is irrelevant.

Answer why doesn't the gravitational lens protect them from ALL attacks since light is the least affected by gravity and if they can deflect light with their gravity field they should be able to deflect anything.

• • A further question could be, why phaser and other Star Trek weapons are able to hit a ship and are not deflected the same way. We know from these weapons that they have some weird characteristics. For example can we observe that they have different speeds. Sometimes they are clearly slower than light, other times we see how they are faster than light and are fired even at warp speed. Alone that ability indicates that such weapons don't operate like normal electromagnetic radiation, which always is propagating with light speed. It could be that they aren't affected by gravity so much as electromagnetic radiation or don't follow the geodesics in space-time like electromagnetic radiation. After all, the heavy space-time distortions of the warp drive don't effect the path of these weapons.

If you don't bring forward a valid argument the next time or are showing that you have neither read that thread nor the sides to which I have provided a link, I won't answer you anymore.

[TheRedFear]

Several points.
3. If Federation ships are immune to lasers why are stars so dangerous to them? In Descent for example Borg ship which was tactically superior to Enterprise couldn't get close to photosphere and Enterprise survived for as long as it did only due to a new kind of shields and even then only for minutes.

Ok, so you're gonna ignore how the only reason they even needed to bother with that "new kind of shield" was because A) The ship was already damaged, and B) being operated by an inexperienced skeleton Crew. You're also going to ASSUME it was only for "a few" minutes, though there's no definite way to measure jsut how long it lasted.

Yer also gonna ignore how on another occasion, they hid from the borg near the sun long before the invention of the Metaphasic Shield and did so for a good bit longer than a few minutes. Knowing that Federation Sensors alone can sense ships hours in advance(So one can reasonably expect Borg sensors to be at least as reliable if not moreso), they would have had to stay near the sun until the Borg they were hiding from were well beyond Sensor range.

And while we're at it let's ignore how even an old Klingon Bird of Prey and several Dominion ships were able to dance around each other jsut above the surface of a sun.

Hell, the only thing that's perplexing here is why the Sun is such a problem for the Borg. The demands of Plot I guess.