The Whole Bullets Vs Borg thing

[TheRedFear]

Hey all. I'm kinda new, not so much to the debate, but to doing the debate on Forums specifically dedicated to it. Nice to meet ya all :)

Mainly, right now I just kinda wanted to put something out there about the whole bulelts and borg thing that I always see. I see people working so hard to come up with a rational explanation when, to me, the answer has always been profoundly simple.

Quite simply, just as the Borg adapt to energy, they can easily adapt an antikinetic shield.

I mean think about it. Look at Worf in a Fistful of Datas. With nothing more than a comm badge and old west peices of scrap, he was able to improvise a crude but temporarily effective bullet proof forcefield.

If WORF(not the most technically saavy character in the series by any stretch of the imagination) can do that, then do you really think the incredibly advanced personal shields of the Borg can't do it better?

Yes, the holographic bullets Picard used killed the Borg. Two or three of them. Which is about how many kills you'll get out of a Phaser before they adapt. So, knowing that after his initial two or three kills, they'd be ready for Kinetic weapons now, Picard did not bother walking over to the nearest replicator station to make a gun for himself. And it's not like he's unfamiliar with Guns considering his Dixon Hill programs.

As for not using shields to ward off Melee attackers, well why would they bother? They WANT to be in melee range with their opponants, so they can inject nanoprobes(Mind you, I for one think the blasted nanoprobes should be in launchable darts, but I guess the whole vampiric snake-tube thing is, cinematically, more dramatic and frightening). They're physically superior to most species they encounter, so there's no practical reason to use their shields to hold Melee assailants at bay. Warriors with Worf's skill and prowess, or Data's physical superiority are the exception, not the rule. The handful of casualties they occasionally take at the hands of such exceedingly rare strong melee combatants hardly justifies a change in tactics on the Borg's part.

Nice, simple, done. Right?

If these points have already been raised then don't mind the newbie. lol

I've jsut never seen these rather simple answers to the subject on any of the various web pages or forums that argue the issue.

[TheRedFear]

Does the lack of response mean this issue was put to bed long ago and i'm just kicking a dead horse?

[GStone]

I actually missed the thread. We've seen specifically KE shielding against Worf in BoBW, Data in FC and for One in Drone that's borg in origin. Some have claimed that because blades have been used agianst them, it must mean they don't have any KE shielding amongst any drone in the whole collective. These same people refuse the think that even when Picard says a holographic bullet can kill, it must mean that the holodeck replaced the holograms with actual bullets.

[Who is like God arbour]

It has to do with the typical Borg mentality: efficiency.

It's not efficient to have shields of all drones at any time adjusted to protect against each and every possible kind of attack.

They adjust their shields to the specific kind of attack used against them each time anew.

They have no problem that the first drones are killed each time. A drone is not an individual and its loss is meaningless.

An attack with bullets or knifes is relativ improbably. That's why they usually don't adapt their shields to this kind of attack.

In STAR TREK: First Contact neither the attack with the holographic bullets on the hollodeck

• • 

nor the attack with the Mek'leth

• • 

could have been anticipated with reasonable certainty. That's why their shields weren't adapted to protect against these kinds of attack.

And from the perspective of the collective, that is ok so: they have lost in both attacks only three drones. And the probability that they are attacked in this kind again is very low. That's why there was still no reason to adapt the shields.

But if they would been attacked only or mainly by bullets, arrows or knifes and similiar things they would adapt their shields. The ewoks wouldn't stand a chance.

But they would propably have no interesst in a species which still uses such weapons: too primitve.

That's why we propably will never see an assimilated ewok.

• • 
    • This picture was posted by havokeff on StarDestroyer.Net

[TheRedFear]

LMAO. Oh god, watch out. The Ewoks already pwned the Empire's best and brightest once. Unleash Borg Ewoks on the Wars universe, and even the Force won't be able to save them

But yeah, so far basically it seems yer all raising some of the same points I did so I guess my thought process on this matter wasn't as original as I thought.

It's jsut strange, none of the more casual sites I went to ever seemed to suggest these simple answers

[Who is like God arbour]

• • • • The Borg, Kinetic Energy, and Holodecks

[TheRedFear]

On the issue of Federation Kinetic Shields, while watching the TNG Episode where Picard, Wesley, and Generic Idiot of the Week Number 572 got stranded in the desert and had to get the magic fountain water, Riker was ready to fly through as asteroid belt relying on nothering but the Enterprise's shields to push the asteroids out of the way.

The St-Vs-SW site site has a section for Federation Kinetic Shields, so thought this might be something worth adding to that section.

[OmniBack]

The Tommy Gun was a hologram and was firing holographic bullets created from force fields, not real bullets made of metal.




The Borg are able to create KE shields, anyone who doesn't believe so is an idiot...

Just look at Worf, he did it with a ComBadge in a few minutes!


The Borg haven't because no one uses projectile weapons, and the only ones strong enough to go hand to are Data and a few species that the Borg aren't actively assimilating at the moment (Vulcan, Klingon, Hirogen...).

Now of course this is contradicted by 'Voyager' as WHY didn't they adapt against Species 8472 and use KE shields, but Voyager ruined alot of Trek and should just be ignored.

Also since Species 8472 is capable of ripping Borg Drones into pieces (armor and all), tearing through Borg Cube bulkheads, and the hull of Voyager.... maybe KE shields wouldn'nt have done anything so the Borg didn't adapt.

[Who is like God arbour]

The Tommy Gun was a hologram and was firing holographic bullets created from force fields, not real bullets made of metal.

[...]

Just look at Worf, he did it with a ComBadge in a few minutes!

That's contradictory and inconsequent.

If the bullets from "STAR TREK: First Contact" weren't real bullets made of metal, the bullets from "A Fistful of Datas" weren't real bullets made of metal either. The shield Worf has erected wouldn't be a kinetic shield but a shield that affect the forcefields that seemingly are giving the bullet holograms substance.

• • But in "Chain of Command" was shown a small force field emitter.
    • • 
        That Image is from ST-v-SW.NET - Star Trek Ground Combat - Ground Force Defense
    This force field emitter should have projected a force field across a tunnel which then should have prevented Cardassians to pursue Picard, Crusher and Worf.
    For that, the force field would have to be kinetic sensitive as well as energetic sensitive because it would make only sense if a Cardassian is not able to fire through the field and simply destroy the emitter.
    
    The problem is that this shield was only flat and could not surround a body.
    
    
    
    • • But how easy it is to create a body hugging shield or a shield bubble around a body are showing the episodes "A Fistful of Datas" (because although it was not a kinetic shield, it still surrounded Worf),
        • • 
            That Image is from ST-v-SW.NET - Star Trek Ground Combat - Ground Force Defense
        the episode "Timescape"
        • • 
            That Image is from ST-v-SW.NET - Star Trek Ground Combat - Ground Force Defense
        in which with emergency transporter armbands a skintight "subspace forcefield" was created, which should isolate the wearer from the different times in the other temporal fragments.
        
        and the episode "State of Flux"
        • • 
            That Image is from ST-v-SW.NET - Star Trek Ground Combat - Ground Force Defense
        in which Seska created a bubble force field around herself with an armband, which should have protected her from nucleonic radiation.
    
    Althoug these three examples aren't showing kinetic shields, one can easily assume that it's not difficult to create with the same technology a similar shield, that is also kinetic sensitive.

[TheRedFear]

The Borg haven't because no one uses projectile weapons, and the only ones strong enough to go hand to are Data and a few species that the Borg aren't actively assimilating at the moment (Vulcan, Klingon, Hirogen...).

Actually, and i'm not sure, but I THINK Klingons are actually the same as humans in pure physical strength. Worf is just so damn big that compared to most of the smaller average sized humans around him he SEEMS super strong. But in theory, another Human the same size as him would be just as strong.

They CAN take alot more damage than humans though I think, with all the redundant organs they have. But I Think(again, i'm not sure) that they're strength level is average

Now of course this is contradicted by 'Voyager' as WHY didn't they adapt against Species 8472 and use KE shields, but Voyager ruined alot of Trek and should just be ignored.

Also since Species 8472 is capable of ripping Borg Drones into pieces (armor and all), tearing through Borg Cube bulkheads, and the hull of Voyager.... maybe KE shields wouldn'nt have done anything so the Borg didn't adapt.

I dont share in the Voyager or Enterprise hate that's so popular, but in all fairness I beleive Species 8472 was immune or highly resistant to most forms of conventional technology, AND were very super Freakishly fast and strong.

It's very likely that by some quirk of their physiology they could bypass the KE Shields, or were simply strong enough to rip through them. Plus, there wasn't much the Drones could do to kill members of 8472. So each 8472 could just wail on that shield until it finally gave out. And that's assuming individual 8472s can't generate their own small-scale bio energy blasts like the oens their ships generate.

Also, we don't know if the drones they tore apart were Tactical Drones or not. The episode where we saw 7 of 9's parents studying drones indicated Tactical drones have titanium(Or some kind of advanced metal) Armor, and presumably would have superior shields and weapons to most drones.

[TheRedFear]

The Tommy Gun was a hologram and was firing holographic bullets created from force fields, not real bullets made of metal.

[...]

Just look at Worf, he did it with a ComBadge in a few minutes!

That's contradictory and inconsequent.

If the bullets from "STAR TREK: First Contact" weren't real bullets made of metal, the bullets from "A Fistful of Datas" weren't real bullets made of metal either. The shield Worf has erected wouldn't be a kinetic shield but a shield that affect the forcefields that seemingly are giving the bullet holograms substance.

• • But in "Chain of Command" was shown a small force field emitter.
    • • 
        That Image is from ST-v-SW.NET - Star Trek Ground Combat - Ground Force Defense
    This force field emitter should have projected a force field across a tunnel which then should have prevented Cardassians to pursue Picard, Crusher and Worf.
    For that, the force field would have to be kinetic sensitive as well as energetic sensitive because it would make only sense if a Cardassian is not able to fire through the field and simply destroy the emitter.
    
    The problem is that this shield was only flat and could not surround a body.
    
    
    
    • • But how easy it is to create a body hugging shield or a shield bubble around a body are showing the episodes "A Fistful of Datas" (because although it was not a kinetic shield, it still surrounded Worf),
        • • 
            That Image is from ST-v-SW.NET - Star Trek Ground Combat - Ground Force Defense
        the episode "Timescape"
        • • 
            That Image is from ST-v-SW.NET - Star Trek Ground Combat - Ground Force Defense
        in which with emergency transporter armbands a skintight "subspace forcefield" was created, which should isolate the wearer from the different times in the other temporal fragments.
        
        and the episode "State of Flux"
        • • 
            That Image is from ST-v-SW.NET - Star Trek Ground Combat - Ground Force Defense
        in which Seska created a bubble force field around herself with an armband, which should have protected her from nucleonic radiation.
    
    Althoug these three examples aren't showing kinetic shields, one can easily assume that it's not difficult to create with the same technology a similar shield, that is also kinetic sensitive.

Dont forget the shield the collector guy used to keep Data at bay.

[2046]

The Tommy Gun was a hologram and was firing holographic bullets created from force fields, not real bullets made of metal.

[...]

Just look at Worf, he did it with a ComBadge in a few minutes!

That's contradictory and inconsequent.

If the bullets from "STAR TREK: First Contact" weren't real bullets made of metal, the bullets from "A Fistful of Datas" weren't real bullets made of metal either. The shield Worf has erected wouldn't be a kinetic shield but a shield that affect the forcefields that seemingly are giving the bullet holograms substance.

Good point. I need to make note of that on the page with the Worf pic, which currently just says "bullets".

That said, though, we have no particular reason to assume it is a specialized holodeck-forcefield-negation-field. Have we even heard of such an "anti-forcefield" before? I'm just trying to figure out where Occam tells us to go on this one.

That Image is from ST-v-SW.NET - Star Trek Ground Combat - Ground Force Defense

Wow dude. I do appreciate the extensive linkage, but you don't have to go to all the trouble. My site pics are freely available for use here. :)

[Who is like God arbour]

Dont forget the shield the collector guy used to keep Data at bay.

Not really. As far as I know, it can't be determined if that proximity-actuated field is created by the device, Kivas Fajo has clipped at his belt or if that device is only a controll device and the field is created by the ship systems.
Both is possible. That's why I haven't listed that event.

That said, though, we have no particular reason to assume it is a specialized holodeck-forcefield-negation-field. Have we even heard of such an "anti-forcefield" before? I'm just trying to figure out where Occam tells us to go on this one.

We don't really know, how that field is working. But, if we assume that the hollodeck doesn't create real bullets and their chemical propelling charge but only holograms which are overlaped by a force field so that the bullets seems to have a real surface, we hace to conclude that the field used by Worf hasn't stopped real bullets but has somehow affected the surface simulating forcefields.

I don't know what is necessary to affect the forcefields the holodeck is using to simulate surfaces on its holograms.

I don't know if a "specialized holodeck-forcefield-negation-field" would be necessary or if a "common" forcefield would be enough.

It could be as well that the com badge has only created interferences in the frequency the holodeck force fields are using and that it has no effect at all on normal matter.

But the point is, that we don't know it and - as I see it - haven't enough informations to be able to make valid speculations.

[Praeothmin]

Ok, all this talk about fake, holographic bullets makes my head hurt... :)

Fact: Holodecks use systems analogous to both the replicator and the Transporter (stated in "Elementary, Dear Data", season two, episode... 1, 2, 3 or 4... :) ).
Fact: Holodecks are equipped with "Failsafes" to keep users from suffering wounds at the hands of the programs.
Fact: Certain matter does indeed exist for real, as in "being replicated", food, for example, or water (remember Weslay in "Encounter at Farpoint"?).

I don't know about you, but if someone were to turn the failsafes off on the Holodeck, the knives would then cut for real (and not be "un-replicated" at the moment of impact), and the bullets would be real, lead bullets, and would impact for real on bodies.

Look back at the three facts above, and then consider Occam's razor.
What is the simplest, most logical explanation:
Failsafes "on", blank shots in real, replicated tommy gun.
Failsafes "off", real bullets in real, replicated tommy gun.

Or

All forcefields, even the tommy gun, including holographic flame for the barrel of the gun, with holographic bullets that kill if the failsafes are off.

I don't know about you, but to me, choice one is the most logical.
Now, I don't remember the KE shields being show by the Borg, but if they've done it a few times, they are probably able to do it, explaining why Picard didn't replicate tommy guns for all his crew after wards (since he obviously knows about guns).
The Borg encountered a new kind of attack (concentrated High kinetic impactors).
Knowing their adaptive methods, the guns would have only been efficient a few shots, at most.

[Who is like God arbour]

The notion that all what is on the holodeck becomes real matter if the safety protocols are disengaged is fallacious.

Fact is that most of the holodeck matter is not real. As soon as the matter leaves the holodeck, it will disappear.

Only some things with which the holodeck visitor will interact more than only superficial are replicated.

The holodeck created persons for example - although they interact with the holodeck visitors by giving them sometimes for example slaps in the face or kisses on the cheek - are not replicated. Their surfaces are simulated with force fields so that the holodeck visitor get only the impression that they are real. The holodeck visitor is not kissed by real lips or slaped by a real hand but only by a force field that overlapps the hologram of lips or hands.

And sure, such a force field can do damage.

• • • If a holographic person would really punch a holodeck visitor, the surface simulating force field around the holographic hand would hit the holodeck visitor with the right speed to equal the impact of that holographic hand as the impact of a real hand. The consequences are the same as if the holodeck visitor would have been hit with a real hand.
      
      If a holographic person would take a bat and beat a holodeck visitor with that, the surface simulating force field around the holographic bat would hit the holodeck visitor with the right speed to equal the impact of that holographic bat with the impact of a real bat. The consequences are the same as if the holodeck visitor would have been hit with a real bat.
      
      If a holographic person would take a knife and stab a holodeck visitor with that, the surface simulating force field around the holographic bat would hit the holodeck visitor with the right speed to equal the impact of that holographic blade with the impact of a real blade. The flesh of the holodeck visitor would be cut from the force field as if it would be a real blade.
      
      If a holographic person would take a projectil weapon and shot a holodeck visitor with that, the surface simulating force field around the holographic bullet would hit the holodeck visitor with the right speed to equal the impact of that holographic bullet with the impact of a real bullet. The flesh of the holodeck visitor would be pierced from the force field as if it would be real bullets.
      
      The so hit person has real injuries although there is no real bullet but only a force field in the body. It's possible to die because that injuries.
      
      If that person leaves the holodeck, the holographic bullets and their surface simulating force fields are vanishing. But that doesn't repair the damages to the flesh. It's still possible to die because that injuries.

The safety protocols are there to prevent such damages to the holodeck visitor. They have to decide how much interaction is safe and what is not safe anymore.

If they are disengaged doesn't mean that all matter on the holodeck gets real. That means only, that the safety protocols don't prevent anymore that the surface simulating force fields do damage to the holodeck visitors while interacting with them.

That bullets aren't real was shown for example in "The Big Goodbye". Cyrus Redblock and Felix Leech inclusive their clothes, the hats and especially their weapon with all bullets in it dematerialise just outside the doors of the holodeck. All that was not replicated because than it wouldn't have vanished. Replicated matter can be taken out of the holodeck. That nothing was left of them after they have felt the holodeck shows, that nothing was real matter, not the clothes, not the hats, not the weapon and not the bullets in it.

• • • And that is confirmed by Riker and Geordi in A Matter of Perspective: The holodeck can't create anything dangerous. It can't really create a weapon nor its munition. That would be dangerous. Everybody could use the holodeck to create weapons, which couldn't be created at a replicator without a sufficient security acces, and take them out of the holodeck. But that's not possible because the holodeck is not programmed to replicate such items. It only simulate such thing with holograms and force fields. And the disengaging of the safety protocols don't change that.