Trek planetary shields

[Socar]

This I have issue with. I believe in ST:TMP we hear passing reference to planetary defences but never anything that could be equated to a planetary shield. IN fact we've never seen anything in Trek to my knowledge that equated to a planetary shield.

If I am remembering correctly, the TMP novelization directly refers to a planetary shield, but is of course non-canon. In Year of Hell, I believe it was mentioned that some of the races (some of which technologically inferior to Voyager) would be able to build planetary shields using Voyager's shield modifications to protect them from the Krenim Temporal Weapon. Of course, overall I would have to agree with you about whether or not they actually have the shields, as there were plenty of episodes where they seemed to be absent when they could have be used (such during the Breen attack on SF HQ), but I suppose this doesn't preclude the possibility of Starfleet being able to set one up, though one must wonder why they did not already do so.

[Cpl Kendall]

If I am remembering correctly, the TMP novelization directly refers to a planetary shield, but is of course non-canon. In Year of Hell, I believe it was mentioned that some of the races (some of which technologically inferior to Voyager) would be able to build planetary shields using Voyager's shield modifications to protect them from the Krenim Temporal Weapon. Of course, overall I would have to agree with you about whether or not they actually have the shields, as there were plenty of episodes where they seemed to be absent when they could have be used (such during the Breen attack on SF HQ), but I suppose this doesn't preclude the possibility of Starfleet being able to set one up, though one must wonder why they did not already do so.

I don't want to drag this thread to far off track with a discourse on Trek shielding but doesn't Year of Hell reset itself at the end? Thereby rendering questionable any of the technology developments in it?

[Who is like God arbour]

This I have issue with. I believe in ST:TMP we hear passing reference to planetary defences but never anything that could be equated to a planetary shield. IN fact we've never seen anything in Trek to my knowledge that equated to a planetary shield. Theatre shields, yes. And I grant you they will probably be able to erect those in the areas they control, although how long they will last in the face of Ork orbital bombardment is open to question, at least until Starfleet can chase them from orbit.

A planetary shield is used in TOS: Dagger of the Mind for the Tantalus Penal Colony and in TOS: Whom Gods Destroy for the Elba II asylum.

Furthermore the Kraylor in VOYAGER: Nightingale had have shields for their homeworld. But that hasn't resulted in a expression of surprise.

And Chakotey has assumed in VOYAGER: Year of Hell, that if Janeway has given the other ships - which have attacked along the Voyager the Krenim temporal weapon ship - the specifications for the temporal shieldings, these would undoubtedly have informed their homeworlds which then - so the assumption of Chakotey - would be able to protect themself against the temporal effect of the weapon of the Krenim ship.

But the temporal shieldings were only a modification of standard shieldings. That would mean that he has assumed that they would have planetary shields which could be modified to temporal shields. Theatre shields wouldn't be able to protect a whole planet against the temporal effects of the weapon of the Krenim ship.

Although their defensive capabilities were less technologically sophisticated than those of the Voyager - as we could have seen at the perfomance these ships have shown in the battle - he has taken it for granted that they have planetary shields.

We have seen planetary shields used by the Federation already in TOS.
We have seen that the existence of planetary shields by other species isn't regarded as a surprise.
We have seen that they take it for granted that other species have planetary shields.

Why again do you doubt that they have planetary shields?

[Cpl Kendall]

A planetary shield is used in TOS: Dagger of the Mind for the Tantalus Penal Colony and in TOS: Whom Gods Destroy for the Elba II asylum.

One the first of which is listed as a transport inhibitor field, not a theatre or planetary shield. And the second says that it only protects the colony dome, in other words a theatre shield. Read your own links.

Furthermore the Kraylor in VOYAGER: Nightingale had have shields for their homeworld. But that hasn't resulted in a expression of surprise.

Not a Federation world. And there's nothing in your links about shielding, planetary or otherwise.

And Chakotey has assumed in VOYAGER: Year of Hell, that if Janeway has given the other ships - which have attacked along the Voyager the Krenim temporal weapon ship - the specifications for the temporal shieldings, these would undoubtedly have informed their homeworlds which then - so the assumption of Chakotey - would be able to protect themself against the temporal effect of the weapon of the Krenim ship.

But the temporal shieldings were only a modification of standard shieldings. That would mean that he has assumed that they would have planetary shields which could be modified to temporal shields. Theatre shields wouldn't be able to protect a whole planet against the temporal effects of the weapon of the Krenim ship.

Although their defensive capabilities were less technologically sophisticated than those of the Voyager - as we could have seen at the perfomance these ships have shown in the battle - he has taken it for granted that they have planetary shields.

And the timeline resets itself after the Kremin ship is destroyed that means that all tech developed or mentioned in the timeline is lost to them.

We have seen planetary shields used by the Federation already in TOS.
We have seen that the existence of planetary shields by other species isn't regarded as a surprise.
We have seen that they take it for granted that other species have planetary shields.

Why again do you doubt that they have planetary shields?

No we have seen theatre and transporter shields in use by the Feds. There's nothing to assume that they can make a planetary shield just because they can make a theatre shield.

Your seriously starting to annoy me, you show up in every thread in order to rabidly defend Trek.

[Who is like God arbour]

One the first of which is listed as a transport inhibitor field, not a theatre or planetary shield. And the second says that it only protects the colony dome, in other words a theatre shield. Read your own links.

That would be an example of incorrect entries in Memory Alpha.
Sadly, I don't know other sources I could show you to prove that that were planetary shields. Maybe one other knows where scripts of these episodes can be found.

But in fact I have thought that you would know these episodes.

Not a Federation world. And there's nothing in your links about shielding, planetary or otherwise.

I have almost explicit stated that these aren't Federation worlds. My point was that - although the Kraylor were less technologically sophisticated than the Federation - the existence of these planetary shield haven't resulted in an expression of surprise.

And that these shields are not mention in Memory Alpha is again an example for an incorrect - or rather incomplete - entry. But in fact I have thought that you would know these episode.

It's not difficult to say that you have never seen something in Star Trek if you have never seen Star Trek.

And the timeline resets itself after the Kremin ship is destroyed that means that all tech developed or mentioned in the timeline is lost to them.

No - only the technology developed in these timeline in regard of the distinctiveness of this timeline would have been lost. All the technology they would have anyway wouldn't get lost.
They would loss the temporal shieldings but not the planetary shieldings.

No we have seen theatre and transporter shields in use by the Feds. There's nothing to assume that they can make a planetary shield just because they can make a theatre shield.

Your seriously starting to annoy me, you show up in every thread in order to rabidly defend Trek.

As I have already said: It's not difficult to say that you have never seen something in Star Trek if you have never seen Star Trek.

If you don't know the mentioned episodes, I can't help you.

Maybe others know where you can find a script or better summary of these episodes or can lead you to other debates in which these questions were already argued.

And I'm sorry that I start to annoy you. I always try to be polite. But if someone ignores facts and made false assumptions what shall I do?

[Socar]

I don't want to drag this thread to far off track with a discourse on Trek shielding but doesn't Year of Hell reset itself at the end? Thereby rendering questionable any of the technology developments in it?

Indeed, the "temporal shield modifications" themselves would be lost, but the ability to construct a planetary shield wasn't a new development during the episode.

In any case, this doesn't really contribute anything to the thread, and as you have already noted, theater shields can be used, so I'll just stop dragging this topic away from the main point.

[Cpl Kendall]

Indeed, the "temporal shield modifications" themselves would be lost, but the ability to construct a planetary shield wasn't a new development during the episode.

In any case, this doesn't really contribute anything to the thread, and as you have already noted, theater shields can be used, so I'll just stop dragging this topic away from the main point.

Agreed.

[sonofccn]

Okay here is the revelent section from "Whom gods destroy"
Be forewarned I found this transcript at www.chakoteya.net and can not swear to it's accuracy however it matches my recolection of the episode so I believe it is correct. If someone has a better transcript and shows me wrong I will of course gladly apologise.

Bridge]

SCOTT: No breakthrough?
UHURA: No, Mister Scott. Still no response from the planet.
SCOTT: Sensor readings?
SULU: The force field is weakest on the far side of the planet. We can send down a shuttlecraft carrying a team in environmental suits.
MCCOY: It won't work, Scotty. They'd have to cover thousands of miles through poisonous atmosphere before they'd ever reach the asylum.
SCOTT: Aye, you're right. Even if they made it, they couldn't carry anything powerful enough to break through the asylum dome. Only the ship herself could do that.
MCCOY: Probably kill Jim and Spock.
SCOT: Doctor, they may already be dead.

For the shield weak point to be on the far side of the planet does indicate the shield spanned a considerable portion their of, and most likely all of it. This plus all the other examples indicates that plantary shielding is possible, and I'll leave why we don't see more to someone else.

The nature of Ork technology is that not everything is the same, dependent on the individual Mekboy that made it. So no they wouldn't all be sheilded but there would be alot of them, usually there's enough to give the Imperium a run for air supremecy and they usually have lots of fighters.

That's not to bad. Definatly will need our own dedicated fighters to help hold the sky.

although how long they will last in the face of Ork orbital bombardment is open to question, at least until Starfleet can chase them from orbit.

Unkown. The shield in Whom gods destroyers IIRC could take everything the Enterprise could dish out and wasn't even strained by it. ON the other hand several minutes worth of an all out salvo from the E-E might equal a single shot from a powerful medium WH40K ship weapon which are calced at I think double or thriple gigaton. Personaly I have doubts of keeping any major shield up if the Orkz want it down.

I don't know about that, Ork vessels are very adept at hiding in Ort clouds and asteroid belts. Sometimes for years, plaguing the system for sometime. This will force SF to at least keep a heavy prescence in system until they can be sure the Orkz have been destroyed.

ST sensor are pretty good at finding noncloaked ships and I doubt they could hide for years. I figure starfleet will spend weeks and months shfiting through all nearby space for stray ships(I'm assuming they won't hide until they start lossing considering an Ork agressive behavior and enjoyment of fighting)

[Cpl Kendall]

Okay here is the revelent section from "Whom gods destroy"
Be forewarned I found this transcript at www.chakoteya.net and can not swear to it's accuracy however it matches my recolection of the episode so I believe it is correct. If someone has a better transcript and shows me wrong I will of course gladly apologise.

Bridge]

SCOTT: No breakthrough?
UHURA: No, Mister Scott. Still no response from the planet.
SCOTT: Sensor readings?
SULU: The force field is weakest on the far side of the planet. We can send down a shuttlecraft carrying a team in environmental suits.
MCCOY: It won't work, Scotty. They'd have to cover thousands of miles through poisonous atmosphere before they'd ever reach the asylum.
SCOTT: Aye, you're right. Even if they made it, they couldn't carry anything powerful enough to break through the asylum dome. Only the ship herself could do that.
MCCOY: Probably kill Jim and Spock.
SCOT: Doctor, they may already be dead.

For the shield weak point to be on the far side of the planet does indicate the shield spanned a considerable portion their of, and most likely all of it. This plus all the other examples indicates that plantary shielding is possible, and I'll leave why we don't see more to someone else.

I'll deal with this a little later on.

That's not to bad. Definatly will need our own dedicated fighters to help hold the sky.

Agreed.

Unkown. The shield in Whom gods destroyers IIRC could take everything the Enterprise could dish out and wasn't even strained by it. ON the other hand several minutes worth of an all out salvo from the E-E might equal a single shot from a powerful medium WH40K ship weapon which are calced at I think double or thriple gigaton. Personaly I have doubts of keeping any major shield up if the Orkz want it down.

I tend to agree. I would think that either the SF engineers will have to be very busy keeping the shield up or that they will need to wait until the Orkz can be driven from orbit, or a combination of both.

ST sensor are pretty good at finding noncloaked ships and I doubt they could hide for years. I figure starfleet will spend weeks and months shfiting through all nearby space for stray ships(I'm assuming they won't hide until they start lossing considering an Ork agressive behavior and enjoyment of fighting)

Most likely. I'm unsure about whether Orkz use ECM or not but the only thing you can really say about them is that there's always a startling exception to the usual preconception that their stupid. Depends on the Warboss I guess and whether he devotes enough time from planetside matters to keeping his fleet fighting.

[Who is like God arbour]

Now, that I have had a little time to search, I have found on StarDestroyer.Net the thread "Trek Has Planetary Shields, Dammit" in which the existence of planetary shields are discussed.

It starts with the following essay:

I'm going to make a case that the Federation as of the 24th century has the technology to create functioning planetary shields. I will make no assertion about the strength of these hypothetical shields, or about which or how many planets actually have them.

The primary evidence is the TOS episode "Whom Gods Destroy". The planet of the week is a desolate planet with normal gravity, a toxic atmosphere and a single Federation installation: the last asylum in the galaxy, housing Garth of Izar. In the course of the episode, Garth captures Kirk and activates the installation's shield. In an attempt to rescue Kirk, the Enterprise flies to the far side of the planet and fires upon the shield opposite the asylum, where it would be weakest. The intention was to open a hole in the shield and pass a shuttle through, but the Enterprise fails to penetrate the shield.

The dialogue aboard the ship makes clear that the shield covers the entire planet; otherwise flying to the opposite side of the planet would be futile. What is especially interesting is that a planetary shield is employed to protect such a strategically worthless planet. There is just one Federation installation on it and nothing but toxic gases outside; a theater shield would have been sufficient protection. This indicates that the Feds of the 23rd century found the construction of planetary shields to be trivial.

Secondary evidence is the Voy. episode "Nightingale", where we see a planetary shield protecting the homeworld of a species under siege by another hostile species. The species in question has just developed a cloaking device to break the blockade of their homeworld, so their tech level is likely not significantly more advanced than the Federation. The shield definitely exists; we even see the flair in the atmosphere as Harry Kim's ship passes through. Kim expresses no astonishment when hearing of the shield's existence. This indicates that planetary shields do exist in the 24th century Trek galaxy.

These two pieces of evidence are enough to prove my assertion that the Federation has the technology to construct planetary shields. Clearly, if the technology existed in the 23rd century, it should exist in the 24th. There is no reason to assume that the technology has been "lost"; Garth's shield was not an experimental prototype and was never destroyed.

Whether or not Earth and other planets possess planetary shields in the 24th century is an unresolved question; however, considering the evidence of Garth's shield around a strategically insignificant installation, I propose that they most likely do have planetary shields around major worlds. We have never seen a planetary bombardment on a major Federation world in action. The Breen attack on Earth is NOT evidence of absence of a shield; the Breen may have overloaded the shield around San Francisco, or the very light (for at least kilo- or megaton-ranged weapons) damage may have been caused by bleed through the shield, or the Breen may have fired before the shield was raised. (They have cloaking devices, mentioned in TNG "Hero Worship") I do not claim that EVERY Federation planet has a shield; this is not even true of the Star Wars galaxy. Naboo, despite being the capital world of an entire sector, did not possess a shield until after TPM (evidence: Ep. II:ICS). But the Federation undeniably has the technology to construct planetary shields in the 24th century.

[Cpl Kendall]

I've already dealt with this in my previous post and I respectfully suggest that this is hijacking the thread in a major way and detracting from the main issue. If we want to bicker about about ST planetary shields than I petition Jedi Master Spock to create a new thread.

[Who is like God arbour]

I agree and support the petition.

P.S.
Our posts have coincided.
As I have started to write that post, your last post wasn't posted yet.

[Cpl Kendall]

I agree and support the petition.

P.S.
Our posts have coincided.
As I have started to write that post, your last post wasn't posted yet.

Understood.

[Jedi Master Spock]

IMO, "Whom Gods Destroy" is most conclusive in answering the problem at hand.

If a single small base can produce a practically impenetrable shield (it could take everything that the Enterprise could dish out at a very narrow point on its weak side) all the way around a planet, Starfleet engineers should be able to produce a much stronger shield to separate Earth from a fleet hanging around in orbit.

More particular to the thread this was split from, I think having Orks in orbit for a few weeks is precisely the sort of scenario that would inspire Starfleet engineers to install a shield if there isn't one there already.

[Cpl Kendall]

I don't question the fact that a shield can be erected, I question whether a shield can hold in the face of Ork bombardment and with most of Earths power grid in shambles after an attack of this size. I don't think the shield will be able to be up continuely until the Orkz are chased from orbit in sufficent numbers to make their bombardment ineffectual.