Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:05 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Realized a thing:
CHAKOTAY: If she's given the other ships temporal shielding, they've undoubtedly informed their home worlds. They'll be able to protect their planets against your weapon.
... does not necessarilly mean that the planet does get a shield.
We have two elements : 1. ships get the temporal shielding. 2. planets could now be protected against temporal weapons.

Considering that the vast majority of cases has shown that planets are either defended by fleets or stationary small battle stations and armed satellites, that line above is certainly not conclusive in that the planets would have a temporal shielding.
The thing you realized is utter nonsense.

How can you protect a planet against the temporal weapon-ship without planetary temporal shields? The answer is that you can't. Even if you deploy a fleet all with individual temporal shields all that need occur is for the weapon-ship to ignore them and hit the planet anyway, or else steadily incur against the fleet to defeat their temporal shields just as occurred against the Voyager-Nihydron-Mawasi fleet.

The result would be a mess for Obrist's calculations but Annorax wasn't exactly keen on surrender . . . which was a point made in prior scenes repeatedly. Chakotay tried to reason him toward surrender with the planetary shield chat but alas, it was game on, and Annorax lost.

There are many, many flaws in your arguments otherwise in this thread, but that one is particularly annoying.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:32 pm

2046 wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Realized a thing:
CHAKOTAY: If she's given the other ships temporal shielding, they've undoubtedly informed their home worlds. They'll be able to protect their planets against your weapon.
... does not necessarilly mean that the planet does get a shield.
We have two elements : 1. ships get the temporal shielding. 2. planets could now be protected against temporal weapons.

Considering that the vast majority of cases has shown that planets are either defended by fleets or stationary small battle stations and armed satellites, that line above is certainly not conclusive in that the planets would have a temporal shielding.
The thing you realized is utter nonsense.
Which is a conclusion I actually reached myself in the post right above yours. Yes, Chakotay was talking nonsense.
Of course you could say that he had access to some tactical data (he could read it??) but planetary shields would have no relevance in calculations and therefore not be listed in (the list of parameters for such equations would be incredibly vast considering the scope of one single incursion against a world, and surely non-relevant elements would be down the list, if not simply filtered out). Add that he didn't know anything about the temporal core either. Is it essential to know about it? Maybe not, but then it would tell us that non-essential elements are not part of the data Chakotay would be knowledgeable of.
Which opens another can of worms. If he had access to more data, probabilities are likely greater that he would have known about the fact that even temporal shielding isn't going to do much against such a weapon, only delaying in the impeding doom by, what? seconds? All at the same time knowing their adversaries could never harm them. So shields wouldn't do much on the short term, although planetary ones would probably resist a little longer (unless they made according to Elbaic principles, lol).
Besides, considering that the weapon must be in a medium ranged orbit to shoot at a planet, that is something of relevance since the ship has to get close; so defense ships can intercept it. However, they can't hit it, whilst temporal defenses are limited in how long they can tank the timejuicer beam.
Therefore back to silly square one.
Besides, if we pull a sonofccn here, everything not outright stated is pure conjecture and thus far, the only things known to have shields are the ships. Homeworlds are simply given the transmitted data about the sort of temporal frequency thing, no more, no less. At best, based on what has been shown (ship shields), we could confer to both Nihydron and Mawasi a theater shield technology. That's about it. So maybe they at least have shields on important buildings, including military ones. That alone would massively mess Annorax' calculations up.
There are many, many flaws in your arguments otherwise in this thread,...
Which ones? :3

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:13 pm

Just to review, you are arguong against a face-value statement with the following assertions:

1. The claim that Chakotay is desperately lying and Annorax was apparently too stupid to catch it.
2. That "planet" means "ship" or "area of planet".
3. That the weapon-ship's ubersensors that could scan the entire Imperium and beyond did not allow knowledge of planetary shields
4. That planetary shields, if extant, are no stronger than the shields of an individual starship.

. . . and the issues brought up in my prior posts yet not addressed.

Every so often you do this wacky contrarianism thing where you refuse to listen to reason and just deny a long-proven thing, as if seeking flames. I'm not falling for it this time. You are simply wrong.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:44 am

2046 wrote:Just to review, you are arguong against a face-value statement with the following assertions:

1. The claim that Chakotay is desperately lying and Annorax was apparently too stupid to catch it.
I said he was bluffing, which carries a slightly different value. And it was quite verified since the other party definitely didn't have weapons.
Simply put, if Chakotay only wanted to maximize chances of the mutiny and sabotage to work, he would have, on the contrary, satisfied Annorax' ego by stating that these people stand no chance. But he didn't. It seems clear that at that point, he hoped he could reason the guy and didn't waste any chance doing so.
2. That "planet" means "ship" or "area of planet".
That is incorrect. Chakotay says homeworld, in the context that info has been sent to said homeworlds. It actually just says that. These homeworlds have the info.
Now, any protection is better than nothing and theater shields are enough to screw with the temporal incursions. In fact it goes beyond a mere screwing with calculations because it literally excludes people from said calculations, so any protected people act as some kind of data safe since they don't get erased and can build up from that, thwarting's Annorax' plan.
What is the proof that such a variable is a considerable game changer? It's right in the show, since this is exactly how it started with Voyager. We can easily imagine how the chances of resistance –and maybe retaliation– would be amplified and maximized by not simply sending the info to a scant few ships only, but to the entire military and governments of two homeworlds!
Obrist would see how each time-correcting attempt would be getting weaker and makinge things worse; the mutiny at this point would probably just be a question of hours at most.
In the end, Chakotay says that the species can defend their homeworlds. It's never said how good would these defenses be, though.
It's just like saying you learned several essential self defense tricks against strong bullies who know street fight quite well. Yes, you'll now be able to defend yourself. However, it does not mean in the slightest that you became invincible and will always win.
3. That the weapon-ship's ubersensors that could scan the entire Imperium and beyond did not allow knowledge of planetary shields
I didn't say that. I said that it would be a totally irrelevant parameter that wouldn't enter the equations at all, as demonstrated in the episodes.
It's a basic thing in mathematics to remove totally irrelevant parameters.
4. That planetary shields, if extant, are no stronger than the shields of an individual starship.
That only concerns Elba and it's pretty much what is described. One single UFP ship, not even a warship, had an experienced crew quite confident (and that is what matters) that they had a chance at piercing the planet-wide shield on its weakest point.
Now let's just imagine an actual warship, or god forbids, more than one!
. . . and the issues brought up in my prior posts yet not addressed.
You will have to be more specific please.
Every so often you do this wacky contrarianism thing where you refuse to listen to reason and just deny a long-proven thing, as if seeking flames. I'm not falling for it this time. You are simply wrong.
Sorry but that attempt at deriding my arguments won't work here.
And there's nothing long-proven, I don't know where you got that idea from.
Plus that appeal to age is rather vapid. One can repeat the same mistakes for eons until shown how wrong one was.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:09 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: I said he was bluffing, which carries a slightly different value. And it was quite verified since the other party definitely didn't have weapons.
Neither statement is relevant.
Simply put, if Chakotay only wanted to maximize chances of the mutiny and sabotage to work, he would have, on the contrary, satisfied Annorax' ego by stating that these people stand no chance. But he didn't. It seems clear that at that point, he hoped he could reason the guy and didn't waste any chance doing so.


Your argument is not logical because you are claiming Chak would try to talk him down by blatantly and obviously lying to him.
That is incorrect. Chakotay says homeworld, in the context that info has been sent to said homeworlds. It actually just says that. These homeworlds have the info.
Now, any protection is better than nothing and theater shields are enough to screw with the temporal incursions.


Your statement is not rational. Whether via direct attack or via comet removal or what-have-you, a species-delete incursion as was done to the Ram Izad would not be nullified. Like a bottle of wine from a long-dead species, there would be artifacts and oddities, but the species and planet would hardly be "protected".
I said that it would be a totally irrelevant parameter that wouldn't enter the equations at all, as demonstrated in the episodes.
Wrong again. You claim Annorax can be bluffed by the idea of planetary shields, yet choose to ignore the fact that these would be detectable by the ubersensors.
That only concerns Elba and it's pretty much what is described.


You err by concluding that a simple security field's characteristics apply to all. Elba simply proves that world-wrapping fields are a thing in the TOS era.
One single UFP ship, not even a warship


That's a disingenuous line of argument. The Enterprise was not solely a warship yet was the better of the met vessels of every other major territorial power.
had an experienced crew quite confident (and that is what matters) that they had a chance at piercing the planet-wide shield on its weakest point.
1. It helps to be part of the organization that built the shield.
2. Elba's shield is perfectly designed. Someone wanting to break in wants an inmate or an item, either of which the shield will deny them if brought down.
Every so often you do this wacky contrarianism thing where you refuse to listen to reason and just deny a long-proven thing, as if seeking flames. I'm not falling for it this time. You are simply wrong.
Sorry but that attempt at deriding my arguments won't work here.
Your arguments are deriding themselves
Plus that appeal to age is rather vapid.
I made no such appeal.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:26 pm

2046 wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: I said he was bluffing, which carries a slightly different value. And it was quite verified since the other party definitely didn't have weapons.
Neither statement is relevant.
Both are. At this point, Chakotay was convinced that Annorax had to be stopped, either from the inside (the mutiny plan), or hopefully from the outside.
He was aware that Voyager survived the temporal weapon so his remark was appropriate and could have very well been true, considering Trek's favourite trope of solving problems within an episode (the crew is that clever at finding solutions in short amounts of time).
Janeway would simply not stupidly engage her ship that way, that is absolutely sure. Some fans may hate her, but if there is one thing certain is that the show painted her as a devoted and very responsible captain, not shy of sacrifice and very caring about her crew which she always puts before herself. We even saw that again in that very two-parter episode!
So tell me how the statements are irrelevant. Just saying they are not is not an argument, it's just taking pot shots and my positions but does not make a debate.
Simply put, if Chakotay only wanted to maximize chances of the mutiny and sabotage to work, he would have, on the contrary, satisfied Annorax' ego by stating that these people stand no chance. But he didn't. It seems clear that at that point, he hoped he could reason the guy and didn't waste any chance doing so.


Your argument is not logical because you are claiming Chak would try to talk him down by blatantly and obviously lying to him.
Your problem is that you have decided since two posts ago that Chokatay's perfectly valid remark (about the ability of Voyager & Pals to harm the Krenim weapon) is a desperate and blatant lie, when it is not and is, on the contrary, a perfectly logical remark considering the situation (hostile ships coming, including Voyager helmed by a crew-caring Janeway), what he knew (at this point he knew that Voyager resisted being shot at by those chroniton torpedoes and Annorax would have very likely informed him about Voyager's remarkable ability to survive direct hits from the temporal weapon, which happened precisely when both Chakotay and Paris were "beamed" on board the Krenim ship and most likely were not privy to that event at that very specific moment) and what his aim was (stopping Annorax).
So please, instead of just saying "blatant and desperate lie", show me why you think that.
That is incorrect. Chakotay says homeworld, in the context that info has been sent to said homeworlds. It actually just says that. These homeworlds have the info.
Now, any protection is better than nothing and theater shields are enough to screw with the temporal incursions.


Your statement is not rational. Whether via direct attack or via comet removal or what-have-you, a species-delete incursion as was done to the Ram Izad would not be nullified. Like a bottle of wine from a long-dead species, there would be artifacts and oddities, but the species and planet would hardly be "protected".
Any ship or building protected from the temporal weapon means people of that species survive, and the problem would keep piling up at each iteration.
The episodes are very clear: at some point, one incursion brings the Krenim Empire near to its apex but there's still this colony that isn't there. So Annorax wants to do another time incursion, which according to calculations, will bring them closer to the perfect scenario.
But this time it fails dramatically and brings the WHOLE empire down, back to a backwater status. It should have not happened. Calculations were clear and logic also supported that.
But there was one new parameter that changed. Voyager.
Then, each ship, each building, each station that gets the memo on how to survive a direct temporal hit is a new wrench into the calculations that need to be removed. Annorax was convinced that Voyager had to be removed so the same would go with every single protect structure. Needless to say, it would be impossible to cover.
Besides, it's very possible that with the correct temporal frequency, that weapon-ship could also be rammed if push came to shove.
Essentially at this point Annorax was thwarted as worlds could defend themselves. To what degree? We don't know, since Chakotay's statement is very vague regarding this parameter. Unless we know the defense would be perfect (that would require solid evidence), it wouldn't but it would still be better than nothing.
Otherwise you are just extrapolating on the defenses this and that world have when for all intents and purposes, all we have seen is shielded warships which are even less potent than Voyager.

As a sidenote: at its peak, the Krenim Empire held more than 800 worlds. That's all the more worlds which can be warned and updated. One single temporal weapon can simply not alter that much either.
I said that it would be a totally irrelevant parameter that wouldn't enter the equations at all, as demonstrated in the episodes.
Wrong again. You claim Annorax can be bluffed by the idea of planetary shields, yet choose to ignore the fact that these would be detectable by the ubersensors.
No, those are your words. I never said he could be bluffed by the idea of planetary shields, or even shields as a matter of fact since my argument started by saying that defenses meant warships. You know the dialogue, don't make me and Chakotay say things.
Considering your past debates regarding Alderaan's defenses, you've proved to be articulate enough to spot the truth against the silly claims made by Wongies who didn't care and were reading what they wanted to read whilst plugging their fingers into their ears, dishonestly oblivious to simple and solid logic.
It would be a pity that you'd align yourself with their deplorable methods because of some implied interests now.
So please, take the dialogue as it is; Chakotay just says the homeworlds could defend themselves, and that comes within the context of Chakotay's attempt at defusing Annorax' genocidal temporal campaign.
There is no mention of any planetary shield. In fact there's no mention of any shield whatsoever. Just that worlds would defend themselves. And the reason why this sounds a lot like a bluff is because chances are high that Chakotay would have known by then that temporal shielding wasn't a sudden ideal trump card at this point.
As I explained, being able to defend yourself doesn't suddenly mean you've become invincible and near-perfect. It just means what it means, that now you can defend yourself.

Secondly, you haven't proven how I am wrong. A non-temporal shield is totally irrelevant as far as the two-parter episode is concerned. Unless I missed some crucial detail which you are free to remind me of.

Also, another point needs to be made: considering how the other species' warships got quickly erased despite their temporal shielding, it would tend to suggest that their defensive technology isn't as good as that of the UFP.
Yet, as far as we know and this thread has demonstrated, reliable and wide-spread planetary shields do not exist within the UFP. So there would be even less reasons for the Nihydrons and Mawasis to have any.
That only concerns Elba and it's pretty much what is described.


You err by concluding that a simple security field's characteristics apply to all. Elba simply proves that world-wrapping fields are a thing in the TOS era.
That "simple security field" that is able to repel a ship's weapon fire is the only verified case you have of a planetary shield in the entire life of the UFP. You aren't going to cook up your dream-planetary-shield on cherry picking the world-wide attribute of Elba's shield and ignore all the nagging issues inherent to its use.
Also, as I said to sonofccn, if you want to appeal to the UFP's intelligence of having thought about having their core worlds protected by such shields, which is fan reasonning, you'd also have to appeal to that same intelligence for not using this stupid design.

Another point to make here too: If the UFP is so smart and knew about the problem represented by the problematic, dangerous and by-default characteristic of this kind of shield (which is a fault that is never mirrored in any other type of shield across the UFP's tech tree AFAIK), then why would they put both the shield generator and the asylum in the same place? That alone is also very stupid!
Unless, of course, the shield wasn't meant to be used that way and had not, as a standard attribute, the slightly annoying particularity of having its generator blowing entirely once the forcefield gets breached, destroying its surrounding environment and killing anything alive within the blast radius.
One single UFP ship, not even a warship


That's a disingenuous line of argument. The Enterprise was not solely a warship yet was the better of the met vessels of every other major territorial power.
As far as the design of the NCC-1701 is considered, it's an exploration vessel (Kirk even repeats it's a Science vessel multiple times) with some armament and defenses tacked on it. There's a considerable amount of room wasted here as far as warship design goes, contrary to the Defiant, and perhaps to some small degree Voyager (a patrol ship but with some commodities).
had an experienced crew quite confident (and that is what matters) that they had a chance at piercing the planet-wide shield on its weakest point.
1. It helps to be part of the organization that built the shield.
2. Elba's shield is perfectly designed. Someone wanting to break in wants an inmate or an item, either of which the shield will deny them if brought down.
1. Yes, which precisely solidifies my point.
2. No, it is not perfectly designed. Being capable of blocking people in and out is irrelevant to my point but nice try (not very clever). And I am not going to repeat myself over and over because you simply don't want to admit the inherent problems within its presented design.

In fact, I could come up with a simple explanation as to why there's been only one such shield ever: the UFP used Elba as a test too, but never managed to come up with a better design suited for the protection of its best people. Perhaps they considered that not-so-good design + poisonous atmosphere was good enough.
Anyway, from a sheer canonical perspective, there simply is zero evidence that other worlds have such a wide shield.
Unless someone posts something new here.
Every so often you do this wacky contrarianism thing where you refuse to listen to reason and just deny a long-proven thing, as if seeking flames. I'm not falling for it this time. You are simply wrong.
Sorry but that attempt at deriding my arguments won't work here.
Your arguments are deriding themselves
Here we go... :)
Plus that appeal to age is rather vapid.
I made no such appeal.
Need I requote you now? You know, the part about "a long-proven thing"?

And could you please actually drop both the passive-aggressive tone and the abhorrent sniping? You are the one actually looking for some flaming here. :(

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:24 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
2046 wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: I said he was bluffing, which carries a slightly different value. And it was quite verified since the other party definitely didn't have weapons.
Neither statement is relevant.
Both are. At this point, Chakotay was convinced that Annorax had to be stopped, either from the inside (the mutiny plan), or hopefully from the outside.
He was aware that Voyager survived the temporal weapon so his remark was appropriate and could have very well been true, considering Trek's favourite trope of solving problems within an episode (the crew is that clever at finding solutions in short amounts of time).
Janeway would simply not stupidly engage her ship that way, that is absolutely sure. Some fans may hate her, but if there is one thing certain is that the show painted her as a devoted and very responsible captain, not shy of sacrifice and very caring about her crew which she always puts before herself. We even saw that again in that very two-parter episode!
So tell me how the statements are irrelevant. Just saying they are not is not an argument, it's just taking pot shots and my positions but does not make a debate.


None of that makes any sense. You do know the plan involved taking the temporal core offline, yes?
Your problem is that you have decided since two posts ago that Chokatay's perfectly valid remark (about the ability of Voyager & Pals to harm the Krenim weapon) is a desperate and blatant lie, when it is not
Wrong. You are claiming that Chak's statement about protecting planets is a lie. "Bluffing", remember?
Any ship or building protected from the temporal weapon means people of that species survive, and the problem would keep piling up at each iteration.
That's not the same as protecting a planet, though. This is the point you keep avoiding. You're trying to insert the concept that the defenders will be content monkeying with incursion results, but that's silly.


Wrong again. You claim Annorax can be bluffed by the idea of planetary shields, yet choose to ignore the fact that these would be detectable by the ubersensors.
No, those are your words. I never said he could be bluffed by the idea of planetary shields, or even shields as a matter of fact since my argument started by saying that defenses meant warships.
Nonsense. Without the disabling of the temporal core, fleets can't touch the weapon-ship and Annorax and Chakotay both know it. Chakotay discussed shields in the context of protecting planets.
Considering your past debates regarding Alderaan's defenses, you've proved to be articulate enough to spot the truth against the silly claims made by Wongies who didn't care and were reading what they wanted to read whilst plugging their fingers into their ears, dishonestly oblivious to simple and solid logic.
It would be a pity that you'd align yourself with their deplorable methods because of some implied interests now.
Pro-tip 1: impugning the character of your opponent when you're losing doesn't improve your lot. It just makes you look like a ridiculous asshat.
Pro-tip 2: My argument is the same in both cases. I am rejecting unnecessary addition of unseen things. In one case, no shield is present in a shieldless society. In this case, a universe with proven shields hae more referenced and you are trying to add in extra words and motivations to ignore it.
So please, take the dialogue as it is


That's a rich statement for you to make.
A non-temporal shield is totally irrelevant as far as the two-parter episode is concerned. Unless I missed some crucial detail which you are free to remind me of.
You state the obvious. The issue is that starship shields are modified into temporal shielding, just as planetary shields would be per Chakotay.
Also, another point needs to be made: considering how the other species' warships got quickly erased despite their temporal shielding, it would tend to suggest that their defensive technology isn't as good as that of the UFP.
Yet, as far as we know and this thread has demonstrated, reliable and wide-spread planetary shields do not exist within the UFP. So there would be even less reasons for the Nihydrons and Mawasis to have any.
Nonsense. Starship temporal shields were overpowered by the direct and sustained application of the temporal weapon. That doesn't mean planetary shields are similarly weak.

You err by concluding that a simple security field's characteristics apply to all. Elba simply proves that world-wrapping fields are a thing in the TOS era.
That "simple security field" that is able to repel a ship's weapon fire is the only verified case you have of a planetary shield in the entire life of the UFP.
Concession accepted that it exists.
You aren't going to cook up your dream-planetary-shield on cherry picking the world-wide attribute of Elba's shield and ignore all the nagging issues inherent to its use.
There are no nagging issues. A wee facility kept its generator onsite. Even if the generator were to blow upon penetration as you imagine, the solution is simple.
had an experienced crew quite confident (and that is what matters) that they had a chance at piercing the planet-wide shield on its weakest point.
1. It helps to be part of the organization that built the shield.
2. Elba's shield is perfectly designed. Someone wanting to break in wants an inmate or an item, either of which the shield will deny them if brought down.
1. Yes, which precisely solidifies my point.
In what way are you pretending this?
Anyway, from a sheer canonical perspective, there simply is zero evidence that other worlds have such a wide shield.
This statement is only accurate if you ignore and handwave all the evidence. I mean, really, you just said Elba was a Federation shield testbed facility that failed, all in your desperate quest to ignore evidence.

Come the hell on. Get back on your meds.

Plus that appeal to age is rather vapid.
I made no such appeal.
Need I requote you now? You know, the part about "a long-proven thing"?
That was not an appeal to age. It was an acknowledgement of your peculiar choice of targets.

Had I in any way suggested that the arguments were correct on account of their age, you'd have a point.
And could you please actually drop both the passive-aggressive tone and the abhorrent sniping? You are the one actually looking for some flaming here. :(
This is ballsy from the guy who tried to impugn my character.

Request denied. I'll treat your arguments with the derision they deserve, and if you keep up the personal nonsense you'll enjoy the same fate.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:36 pm

I have to step in here in my capacity as a moderator and say that you gentlemen need to ease off. I know you're both pining for the days of glory with StarWarsStarTrek and such, but that kind of flaming and trolling of each other is not tolerated.

Thank you
-Mike

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:16 pm

No worries. I'm not mad at him, I just think the argument itself is utterly silly, and the general obnoxiousness and personal parts being used to defend it are sad. Such things can happen from time to time, and I myself am no stranger to either being or in some cases merely appearing to be impatient, dismissive, et cetera. I'll do more to ignore the obnoxiousness and curb my disdain for the style of argumentation. After all, as you might've noticed, I haven't exactly been writing my usual novellas. In this particular instance, that is a clue as to how much concern I have for the content of his claims or his attacks.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:42 am

RSA wrote: No worries. I'm not mad at him, I just think the argument itself is utterly silly, and the general obnoxiousness and personal parts being used to defend it are sad. Such things can happen from time to time, and I myself am no stranger to either being or in some cases merely appearing to be impatient, dismissive, et cetera. I'll do more to ignore the obnoxiousness and curb my disdain for the style of argumentation. After all, as you might've noticed, I haven't exactly been writing my usual novellas. In this particular instance, that is a clue as to how much concern I have for the content of his claims or his attacks.
I don't have a problem either, but if you find this argument funny, utterly silly, obnovious or whatever, then perhaps leave it, otherwise it may look like you're trolling and flame-baiting, which is just pointless considering the audience of this place.
Me wrote:Both are. At this point, Chakotay was convinced that Annorax had to be stopped, either from the inside (the mutiny plan), or hopefully from the outside.
He was aware that Voyager survived the temporal weapon so his remark was appropriate and could have very well been true, considering Trek's favourite trope of solving problems within an episode (the crew is that clever at finding solutions in short amounts of time).
Janeway would simply not stupidly engage her ship that way, that is absolutely sure. Some fans may hate her, but if there is one thing certain is that the show painted her as a devoted and very responsible captain, not shy of sacrifice and very caring about her crew which she always puts before herself. We even saw that again in that very two-parter episode!
So tell me how the statements are irrelevant. Just saying they are not is not an argument, it's just taking pot shots and my positions but does not make a debate.
None of that makes any sense. You do know the plan involved taking the temporal core offline, yes?
Just saying that none of what I said makes sense does not suffice. Again, drop the sniping please.
And yes, I'm aware the planet involved taking the temporal core offline, which couldn't happen without a certain level of mutiny (it's not clear how big it needs to be in the episode, we don't get much info about what goes on inside the temporal vessel).
Yet, what is your point? What is the link between both of your sentences?
Your problem is that you have decided since two posts ago that Chokatay's perfectly valid remark (about the ability of Voyager & Pals to harm the Krenim weapon) is a desperate and blatant lie, when it is not
Wrong. You are claiming that Chak's statement about protecting planets is a lie. "Bluffing", remember?
Then we will have to agree on a definition of bluffing because as far as I am concerned, a blatant lie makes for a very poor bluff.
A bluff means to deceive your opponent. There are many ways to do that, and making things up that sound very plausible although you can't prove them is part of the bag of tricks.
Then, if the word bluff is what disturbs you, let's just say that Chakotay was trying influence Annorax by any means possible.
Any ship or building protected from the temporal weapon means people of that species survive, and the problem would keep piling up at each iteration.
That's not the same as protecting a planet, though. This is the point you keep avoiding. You're trying to insert the concept that the defenders will be content monkeying with incursion results, but that's silly.
You are forgetting the context.
This is Chakotay talking to Annorax. Annorax aims for one thing, the full Krenim empire. Yet both know that the very simple fact of having Voyager survive assaults against the temporal weapon sufficed to thwart Annorax's plans.
It is therefore very logical to try to wedge that reality into Annorax' head by reminding him that he's not dealing with just one ship with temporal shielding, but several of them which would have likely passed the info to their respective home worlds. That's a good tactic.
From that simple information, it would be more than highly expected that Annorax would realize how this keeps snowballing to proportions that are impossible to reverse.
That is meant to have Annorax realize that his operation is now entirely futile. That's part of getting him to stop everything.
No, those are your words. I never said he could be bluffed by the idea of planetary shields, or even shields as a matter of fact since my argument started by saying that defenses meant warships.
Nonsense. Without the disabling of the temporal core, fleets can't touch the weapon-ship and Annorax and Chakotay both know it. Chakotay discussed shields in the context of protecting planets.
I won't waste time on suggestions of ramming the temporal ship. Clearly, temporal frequencies can't be changed on a whim or they chronoton torpedoes would still be a problem.
You speculate about the shields, let's speculate further (I'll be repeating myself here though). Speculation: Annorax told him that Voyager resisted the temporal weapon thanks to her temporal shielding, but the ship was about to be erased anyway.
From that, Chakotay would know that a temporal shielding would be a temporary measure, and as you said, nobody could retaliate.
So it would make no difference.
Knowing that, why would Chakotay still throw this remark, despite the emptiness of it?

Simple. We know that both the mutineers, the Voyager crew and their allies have to buy time for Paris and Obrist, doubled with an attempt to have Annorax doubt his plan and to cloud his mind.
At this point, Chakotay knows about the attack in order to buy time and create a window of opportunity for the temporal core to be switched off.

Let's notice that the remark would also be more convincing by refering to multiple targets instead of one single entirely shielded planet acting like a sitting duck, since Annorax would have to go after every single shielded ship to stop them from spreading through space and transmitting the information and completely ruining his plan.
It would obviously add more weight to the bluff than to refer to a single planetary shield that would not matter in the end.
Pro-tip 1: impugning the character of your opponent when you're losing doesn't improve your lot. It just makes you look like a ridiculous asshat.
Pro-tip 2: My argument is the same in both cases. I am rejecting unnecessary addition of unseen things. In one case, no shield is present in a shieldless society. In this case, a universe with proven shields hae more referenced and you are trying to add in extra words and motivations to ignore it.
1: Sorry for that then, but your clear sniping wasn't taken agreably and your semi-accusation that I was looking for flames on the basis of "wacky contrarianism" wasn't exactly cool either. I just didn't see the point for that.
2: As you'll see later on (end of the post), the planetary shield claim requires several huge assumptions when my position requires little. You'll see that taking the dialogue for what it says also means not plugging the concept of planetary shields when there is none needed as there's equally none to be found either in the analyzed material.

A non-temporal shield is totally irrelevant as far as the two-parter episode is concerned. Unless I missed some crucial detail which you are free to remind me of.
You state the obvious. The issue is that starship shields are modified into temporal shielding, just as planetary shields would be per Chakotay.
You would have not missed the point if you had taken this quoted line of me in the context you took it from.
I said that a non-temporal shield would be totally irrelevant and therefore not be part of the relevant data Chakotay would have had access to when fiddling with Annorax' calculations.
With no such data, he would not know if the Nihydrons or Mawasis would possess planet-wide shielding technology.
This, to reinforce my point that at the very best, Chakotay would assume a similar level of shielding tech to the UFP, and so a capacity to shield stations, buildings and perhaps small cities. Or more simply, that Chakotay was refering to the "other ships" and nothing else.
That's why I talk about the non-relevance of vanilla shields. No more, no less.

Also, another point needs to be made: considering how the other species' warships got quickly erased despite their temporal shielding, it would tend to suggest that their defensive technology isn't as good as that of the UFP.
Yet, as far as we know and this thread has demonstrated, reliable and wide-spread planetary shields do not exist within the UFP. So there would be even less reasons for the Nihydrons and Mawasis to have any.

Nonsense. Starship temporal shields were overpowered by the direct and sustained application of the temporal weapon. That doesn't mean planetary shields are similarly weak.
I already pointed out that they may last longer. However, your only and single evidence that a planetary shield would hold on for a longer duration is Elba II, which the Enterprise's crew considered possible to pierce at its weakest point with phasers on narrow beam only (worried for the safety of the people) and which, for all intents and purposes, only showed a resistance superior to what the Enterprise would output in a limited timeframe with those restrictions, with absolutely no demonstration that it could even repel the firepower of, say, the equivalent of a flotilla of three warships (twice less than what attacked the Krenim temporal ship for instance). They didn't use a greater firepower because they knew it would kill people down there and for the reminder, there was no obligation to shoot just ontop of the asylum.
The very fact that it was considered possible for one single armed exploration/science ship to put a hole in that shield is all that matters because it puts a firm cap on how sturdy that shield could really be. The fact that less discriminate application of firepower was thought to condemn the people down on Elba II also strongly implies that the Enterprise's full firepower would actually poke a hole.
That "simple security field" that is able to repel a ship's weapon fire is the only verified case you have of a planetary shield in the entire life of the UFP.
Concession accepted that it exists.
Oh, like in the old days. :)
But that sounds really desperate to grasp for such "concessions", doesn't it?
When did I dispute this fact?
You aren't going to cook up your dream-planetary-shield on cherry picking the world-wide attribute of Elba's shield and ignore all the nagging issues inherent to its use.
There are no nagging issues. A wee facility kept its generator onsite.
A "wee" facility? You mean a weak one?
Well, I don't think the facility was weak at all:
SULU: The force field is weakest on the far side of the planet. We can send down a shuttlecraft carrying a team in environmental suits.
MCCOY: It won't work, Scotty. They'd have to cover thousands of miles through poisonous atmosphere before they'd ever reach the asylum.
SCOTT: Aye, you're right. Even if they made it, they couldn't carry anything powerful enough to break through the asylum dome. Only the ship herself could do that.
Nothing could break through the asylum dome except the Enterprise.
That thing clearly isn't made of tissue paper.
Even if the generator were to blow upon penetration as you imagine, the solution is simple.
Spit it out, don't be shy. :)
In what way are you pretending this?
Still in the way that the people know what they are talking about regarding the shield, no working on wrong presumptions.
That immediately discards the "they were making stuff up" copout one could expect in that debate.
Anyway, from a sheer canonical perspective, there simply is zero evidence that other worlds have such a wide shield.
This statement is only accurate if you ignore and handwave all the evidence.
There is no such evidence. Refering to some mystical "all evidence" thingy isn't going to help you.
I mean, really, you just said Elba was a Federation shield testbed facility that failed, all in your desperate quest to ignore evidence.

Come the hell on. Get back on your meds.
A late suggestion to explain why its silly design is only found once in all of the UFP's record.
That was not an appeal to age. It was an acknowledgement of your peculiar choice of targets.
Had I in any way suggested that the arguments were correct on account of their age, you'd have a point.
Which is exactly what you did:
Every so often you do this wacky contrarianism thing where you refuse to listen to reason and just deny a long-proven thing, as if seeking flames. I'm not falling for it this time. You are simply wrong.
So if this wasn't a reference to the age of the long-proven thing (claim of planetary shielding), then please clarify what you had in mind, eventually rewrite that sentence, because your current wording leaves no ambiguity I'm afraid.


Still, as I alluded to earlier on in this post, we'll get to one of the crucial elements.
The key to our little issue lies in the grammatical construction of the sentences.
CHAKOTAY: If she's given the other ships temporal shielding, they've undoubtedly informed their home worlds. They'll be able to protect their planets against your weapon.
Regarding the aliens, we have to subject-groups. The first one is the "other ships", the second one is "their home worlds". Obviously, and regardless of any word used in the rest of the paragraphs quoted above, a home world also is a planet (unless some very unique and exceptional case of say, for example, a mega ship that's 1000 km wide and is a mobile colony where people have been living and denying for fifty centuries).

The next thing to do is to is to find what "they" refers to in each sentence.
Just to avoid mistakes, we'll use again the transcript's source and then quote a larger section.
[Bridge]

(Janeway is at the helm.)
JANEWAY: Voyager to Mawasi vessel.
TUVOK [OC]: Go ahead, Captain.
JANEWAY: I'm picking up the weapon ship dead ahead.
TUVOK [OC]: Confirmed.
JANEWAY: Temporal shields status.
TUVOK [OC]: All vessels are bringing them online.
JANEWAY: This is Captain Janeway to the fleet. Plot an intercept course to the weapon ship.

[Krenim Timeship - Bridge]

OBRIST: Sir, six vessels are approaching our position.
ANNORAX: Identify.
OBRIST: Three Nihydron warships, two Mawasi cruisers, and Voyager.
ANNORAX: We're outside space-time, impervious to their weapons. Let them come.
CHAKOTAY: I know Captain Janeway. She wouldn't be attacking unless she knew she could do some damage.
(Obrist sends a message to Paris' quarters.)

[Krenim Timeship - Paris' quarters]

PARIS: Good work, Obrist.
(Paris relays the information.)

[Krenim Timeship - Bridge]

CHAKOTAY: If she's given the other ships temporal shielding, they've undoubtedly informed their home worlds. They'll be able to protect their planets against your weapon.
ANNORAX: Bring the weapon to full power. Stand by for multiple incursions. We'll have to disable their temporal shields first. Make the necessary calculations.
As we can see, all three men on the Krenim side, i.e. Annorax, Obrist and Chakotay, have only made references to the adversary ships.
They talk about "their weapons", they say "let them come" and nothing else. It's always about the ships. This is of importance for what comes next.

So, let's deal with the first "they" from Chakotay's last words in this section:

"they've undoubtedly informed their home worlds": "they" refers to the "other ships", the first group I identified earlier on.

Now, we move to the sentence that is essential to the topic of planetary shielding:

"They'll be able to protect their planets against your weapon.": "they" could refer to either groups, either the "other ships" (group 1) or the "home worlds" (group 2).
So let's just swap the groups in lieu of the "they" placeholder. Option A will use group 1, option B will use group 2.

A: The other ships will be able to protect their planets against your weapon.
B: The home worlds will be able to protect their planets against your weapon.

Just to make things clear, since we know that "home worlds" are "planets", let's switch "home worlds" and "planets" through four permutations to present an extended form of option B:

B1: The home worlds will be able to protect their planets against your weapon.
B2: The planets will be able to protect their home worlds against your weapon.
B3: The planets will be able to protect their planets against your weapon.
B4: The home worlds will be able to protect their home worlds against your weapon.

Of all permutations, only B1 might make an ounce of sense in that each home world would be center to some sorts of unions, federations, alliances or empires. And that, only with the grace of some unpleasant mental acrobatics. There are two problems with that:
1. the totally unproven assumption of such groups and hierarchies beyond the possession, for each species, of more than one planet aside from their respective home worlds.
2. the episode has only shown isolated home worlds thus far being attacked and this being enough to get rid of an entire species.

Now, option A, on the other hand, just happens to closely fit with everything seen and demonstrated on screen. It doesn't assume unseen planetary defenses, it doesn't assume unions or empires for neither the Nihydron nor Mawasi peoples.
It just assumes the smallest thing: the possession of more ships. That is, a higher number of assets already proven to be true, contrary to the rest.
That is why option A is definitely the strongest.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:50 pm

I like how I say I'll try to ignore your BS so you turn it up to 11, tossing out insults and obnoxiousness even to the point of pretending you don't know what "wee" means. Oh, and the whole continued pretense that I, who have frequently made the point that what is long- and oft-repeated is not necessarily true, would suddenly claim the inverse merely by mentioning common elements of the frequent nature of your wacky windmill targets is sad.

(Sigh)
None of that makes any sense. You do know the plan involved taking the temporal core offline, yes?
Just saying that none of what I said makes sense does not suffice. Again, drop the sniping please.
How is saying that your statement makes no sense sniping? You just suggested I may be engaged in trollery, but "huh?" Is an evil attack? Seriously, I am just curious how that works, conceptually.

Taking it from the top, I said you were asserting things against the face value of the statement (where "face value" is "planetary shields"), one being that Chakotay was spewing a ridiculous lie at Annorax that planets could be protected via shielding and the latter was too stupid to catch it. Your response was to nitpick that Chak was bluffing instead of lying (where "nitpick" refers to the fact that a ridiculous bluff = ridiculous lie in my book), and something about something being verified because somebody didn't have weapons or something. That has nothing to do with my statement.
You are forgetting the context.
This is Chakotay talking to Annorax. Annorax aims for one thing, the full Krenim empire. Yet both know that the very simple fact of having Voyager survive assaults against the temporal weapon sufficed to thwart Annorax's plans.


That is not the context. The context is that Chakotay is trying to talk Annorax into standing down. He first suggests Janeway can hurt them based on his knowledge that she wouldn't waste the effort. After a separate scene, he notes the alliance temporal shields, and is trying to make the case that destroying Voyager and her allies will accomplish nothing.

Against both claims, Annorax decides to press on.

And that produces a problem for your argument, especially. You claim that having individual ships and buildings shielded is the same as "protect their planets", which it isn't. You claim that having new shielded "components" will throw off calculations, and that this is the threat to Annorax that Chakotay was going for.

Recall, however, that the Ram Izad were subjected to an incursion despite Voyager's temporal shields. That component was accounted for in calculations.

Recall also that Annorax planned to hit the fleet by disabling their temporal shields using the weapon, whereas planetary shields can be assumed stronger… perhaps too strong for the weapon to deal with.

Recall also that Annorax and his crew are ageless.

Put simply, a number of temporally-shielded objects no stronger than Voyager is merely a time-wasting nuisance for Annorax. Only something big that can defend against or attack the weapon is a real threat . . . just like if Janeway thought she could do damage, which Chakotay also suggested.

And again, to belabor the point as it seems necessary, Chakotay did not say "I am sure she thinks she can hurt the weapon-ship, and even if she fails she's probably told the others how," as you sporadically imply.


As for your tortured . . . what do I even call that? As for your effort to recontextualize Chakotay, that was a whole long waste of effort. You now argue that Chakotay was saying the handful of Nihydron and Mawasi ships are going to somehow protect their respective planets because they sent a transmission. Must be a helluva speech!

Obviously, Chakotay referred to the Nihydron and Mawasi protecting their worlds. I suppose you can now debate whether they even had governments, media, militaries, on-planet comm systems, smoke signals, et cetera by which such information might be usefully disseminated. I guess Chakotay just assumed it . . . y'know, like planetary shields.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:11 pm

Just a note: Voyager had literally just turned on the temporal shield when the screwed up incursion occurred. Given the Ram Izad incursion that accounted for Voyager, there is no reason to suggest that screwing up incursions equates to protecting planets.

Also, reviewing the Elba II situation, there's nothing wrong with the bloody thing. The Enterprise considered defeating the shield over the asylum but the likely bleedthrough from defeating it could have destroyed the facility. Later they considered dropping a shuttle through the shield somehow on the opposite side of the planet where the shield was weakest, but the shuttle would not have been able to fly afterward, and any team they sent would have to travel overland half the circumference of the planet. Even then they would, per Scotty, not be able to have anything with them capable of penetrating the asylum dome. Only starship weaponry could do so, and even if they ruptured the protective dome it would probably have killed everyone due to the poisonous atmosphere.

Finally it dawns on them to try to penetrate the shield on the aforementioned weak farside, which would have the benefit of not killing the asylum dome residents.

So, to summarize, save for the missing technobabble about how the shuttle could penetrate but that would render it incapable of flight, the shield makes perfect normal sense.

Also, I would like to quote and second sonofccn's summary of the situation, made in this thread before I sullied it with my nefarious presence:

The majority of the evidence suggest, from the 23rd century onward, the Federation has the capability, if not necessarily the will, to shield its planets. In addition to surface emplacements, theater and installation shields as well as local defense ships we've seen them employ. Suffice it to say I don't think planetary defense is a particularly weak link in the Federation.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:24 am

2046 wrote:I like how I say I'll try to ignore your BS so you turn it up to 11, tossing out insults and obnoxiousness even to the point of pretending you don't know what "wee" means. Oh, and the whole continued pretense that I, who have frequently made the point that what is long- and oft-repeated is not necessarily true, would suddenly claim the inverse merely by mentioning common elements of the frequent nature of your wacky windmill targets is sad.

(Sigh)
(Sigh too)
OK, let's just skip all that nonsense and focus on discussing the episodes.
None of that makes any sense. You do know the plan involved taking the temporal core offline, yes?
Just saying that none of what I said makes sense does not suffice. Again, drop the sniping please.
How is saying that your statement makes no sense sniping?
Because you don't explain why.
Saying it's wrong, doesn't work, is flawed, etc., isn't going to help much. You have to elaborate.
Taking it from the top, I said you were asserting things against the face value of the statement (where "face value" is "planetary shields"), one being that Chakotay was spewing a ridiculous lie at Annorax that planets could be protected via shielding and the latter was too stupid to catch it. Your response was to nitpick that Chak was bluffing instead of lying (where "nitpick" refers to the fact that a ridiculous bluff = ridiculous lie in my book), and something about something being verified because somebody didn't have weapons or something. That has nothing to do with my statement.
1. The so called face value regarding planetary shields is non-existant. Star Trek has seldom proven the existence of planetary shields, only theater ones of very limited range and that has defined the norm for the entire franchise for decades. Elba II is a huge outlier in that department and hardly one you'd like to rely on imo.

2. I'm trying to see what you see as a bold faced lie here, one that is so bad that Annorax wouldn't take the bait; is it that according to a certain interpretation, Chakotay would have been suggesting that upgraded ships could now defend planets? That it is utterly silly? But isn't it exactly how Star Trek has routinely shown how worlds and home worlds were defended? With fleets of ships and, in second position, orbital weapon platforms and eventually some minefield cases at a third distant position?
From there you say ships can't do anything against the temporal weapon so only a huge and temporally upgraded defensive military-grade forcefield would do the job.
Yet such attributes, both being world-encompassing and impenetrable when attacked by a powerful weapon, all rolled into one super shield, have not been observed yet.
If we are to extrapolate on the quality of the Mawasi's and Nihydron's vaunted planetary shield tech from what their ships displayed after the upgrade, it does not really encourage one to think they'd have something suddenly nigh invincible as required by the pro-planet-wide shield argument.

Then we come to the lie. So I'll requote a part of your post:
I said you were asserting things against the face value of the statement (where "face value" is "planetary shields"), one being that Chakotay was spewing a ridiculous lie at Annorax that planets could be protected via shielding and the latter was too stupid to catch it.
So you say that "I asserted [...] that Chakotay was spewing a ridiculous lie at Annorax that planets could be protected via shielding and the latter was too stupid to catch it." Correct?

If that is what you say, I disagree. I couldn't have done that because I have not said that Chakotay was attempting to sale the idea that planets could be protected via shielding when Annorax would know that to be impossible. This is an interpretation of my words one can reach only by thinking I'd have Chakotay imply a protection by shielding directly applied to the planet (planetary shield), when I actually considered that the defense would be provided with other assets, notably ships.
Wrong or not, at least that was my position. I, at best, recognized the possibility of a defense of important assets with theater shielding, which is sufficiently documented in Trek.

However, I recall saying to sonofccn that a defense needn't be perfect. Being able to protect yourself, say in a fight, doesn't mean the opponent won't get through your guard. It just means that now you know how to defend yourself, compared to a previous state when you didn't.

You assume the protection will be perfect. When someone says "wear that chainmail, it will protect you", do you assume it will also cover the face, the hands, the legs and feet? When someone would hand you a bulletproof vest and tell you to wear it so it would protect you, would it magically exclude all the bruises and being knocked down? When you put suncream on your skin that is said to protect your skin, do you assume it will be perfect too?
Or it's like saying that now you've got a gun, you'll be able to protect your family. True, but that hardly makes them suddenly immune to criminal weapon fire, right?

Chakotay simply says that now they'll be able to protect their planets. Of course the best case scenario is a Druidia-like shield with temporal ability. But that's the best case scenario and requires assumptions and technological levels that have not been demonstrated at all. More moderate understandings of Chakotay's words work with both what we've seen both alien species use and what we can safely infer considering that they can at least shield ships.

Besides, the Krenim weapon ship was only capable of warp six, which would leave quite some time for the home worlds to update their defenses (and even send data to other worlds on urgent diplomatic missions). If the alpha quadrant is of any indication, home worlds are well spaced.
Didn't this entire episode actually last one year? Janeway said she'd forget it. This would actually leave months to Mawasi and Nihydron to update and build up defenses.

You are forgetting the context.
This is Chakotay talking to Annorax. Annorax aims for one thing, the full Krenim empire. Yet both know that the very simple fact of having Voyager survive assaults against the temporal weapon sufficed to thwart Annorax's plans.


That is not the context. The context is that Chakotay is trying to talk Annorax into standing down.
Part of having Annorax stand down is precisely done by Chakotay trying his best to deceive Annorax into thinking that the battle to come is pointless, that he'll probably be damaged (with destruction obviously implied) and that he won't be able to endanger the home worlds anymore (because ships and unspecified other assets would get the shield upgrade).
He first suggests Janeway can hurt them based on his knowledge that she wouldn't waste the effort. After a separate scene, he notes the alliance temporal shields, and is trying to make the case that destroying Voyager and her allies will accomplish nothing.
Correct. Plus even if he doesn't spell it out (perhaps during the cut to another location, who knows?), a smart individual could consider that Janeway would have shared the offensive trick with the other crews. It's a strong possibility.
Annorax sees the fleet attacking. Chakotay talks about Janeway's possible knowledge of how to do some damage. It's very likely that Annorax would also wonder if the other ships are also capable of that.
And that produces a problem for your argument, especially. You claim that having individual ships and buildings shielded is the same as "protect their planets", which it isn't.
As per the examples before, I think it is. Should we assume a flawless protection?
You claim that having new shielded "components" will throw off calculations, and that this is the threat to Annorax that Chakotay was going for.

Recall, however, that the Ram Izad were subjected to an incursion despite Voyager's temporal shields. That component was accounted for in calculations.
First of all, the Ram Izad didn't get the upgrade.
Secondly, that incursion happened at a time when Voyager was the only ship capable of temporal shielding. So that ship was the only wild element that had to be corrected at the time of the attack. Thing is, the incursion alone isn't what matters entirely. The wake is an important part too and Voyager hadn't her shields up at the moment of the firing, but did when the wake arrived.

So either the simple fact of having that activable ability is already a new problem, or using shields against the wake casts some kind of disturbance, a shadow in the wake that weakens its effects and leaves incomplete results in the continuum.
Whatever the reason, Voyager was a trouble-maker in relation to the calculations; it could not remain ignored.

Now, don't you think that compounding this singular issue through the spreading of the shield upgrade to warships, perhaps stations, bases and small cities directly belonging to the species exposed to a temporal incursion, wouldn't throw off the calculations even more in comparison to what happened because of the activity of the fairly neutral Voyager?
Recall also that Annorax planned to hit the fleet by disabling their temporal shields using the weapon, whereas planetary shields can be assumed stronger… perhaps too strong for the weapon to deal with.
As I pointed much earlier on, this is totally unsubstantiated considering how the Nihydron and Mawasi ships were either destroyed or disabled. Voyager proved stronger and yet if we're to take the UFP as our basis for what kind of tech one is to expect, the glaring lack of conspicuous evidence of ubiquitous planetary shields tells us that we shouldn't even expect anything equal to that on par of either the Nihydron or the Mawasi, but actually even less than that.
Of course we can argue about that until we're blue in the face but...
Recall also that Annorax and his crew are ageless.
Correct but so what? They've been fiddling for something like a century, but the interrumption of one single ship that occasionally switched her temporal shields on screwed the calcs big time over.
Put simply, a number of temporally-shielded objects no stronger than Voyager is merely a time-wasting nuisance for Annorax.
Yes, the show has demonstrated that, after Chakotay's bluff.
Voyager had no way to damage the weapon ship and the alien ships got dispatched despite their shielding, proving Chakotay dead wrong on all points. But that doesn't matter because it was a bluff, not a solid truth. A bluff is useful as long as it hasn't been exposed.
Only something big that can defend against or attack the weapon is a real threat . . . just like if Janeway thought she could do damage, which Chakotay also suggested.
A planetary shield wouldn't be a threat to the ship. What can be threatened by the use of a temporal shield, however, is Annorax's plan, the one which absolutely requires both perfect removal of a species' existence from the continuum (because people under a shield won't vanish and that can mean a lot of them, especially military personnel and same goes for their hardware) and the total absence of temporal wild elements.
Both being utterly impossible if a shield upgrade happens on all fronts.
And again, to belabor the point as it seems necessary, Chakotay did not say "I am sure she thinks she can hurt the weapon-ship, and even if she fails she's probably told the others how," as you sporadically imply.
It's true, he did not say that, but there's no reason why the upgrade to offensive capabilities (or the trick Janeway would know about) wouldn't be shared too.
As other ships were attacking too, it would also be expected of Annorax to consider the possibility that they also knew how to deal some damage.
Would it be impossible just because Chakotay didn't mention it? That's absurd.
As for your tortured . . . what do I even call that? As for your effort to recontextualize Chakotay, that was a whole long waste of effort. You now argue that Chakotay was saying the handful of Nihydron and Mawasi ships are going to somehow protect their respective planets because they sent a transmission. Must be a helluva speech!
But it was a temporal speech!!
More seriously, the sheer grammatical structure of Chakotay's lines isn't really adequate, because at no point he refers to the alien species themselves before eventually using "they" as a replacement for them. I highlighted the entities he mentionned.
But let's have that slide. Say, yes, that he meant (in his head) the Mawasi and Nihydron and not specific assets like ships.
Obviously, Chakotay referred to the Nihydron and Mawasi protecting their worlds. I suppose you can now debate whether they even had governments, media, militaries, on-planet comm systems, smoke signals, et cetera by which such information might be usefully disseminated. I guess Chakotay just assumed it . . . y'know, like planetary shields.
Why are you conflating the notion of transmitting data across a planet (a point that never entered the discussion and which we can already achieve today with landline phones) with the notion of planetary shields?
A species capable of building warp-capable space ships is certainly expected to be able to cast signals across its planet rather easily. But it does not imply the knowledge of a planet-wide shield technology.





2046 wrote:Just a note: Voyager had literally just turned on the temporal shield when the screwed up incursion occurred. Given the Ram Izad incursion that accounted for Voyager, there is no reason to suggest that screwing up incursions equates to protecting planets.
What is the relevance of this? Ram Izad wasn't a world Voyager made contact with. They had no temporal shield upgrade, it was just... that world.
Also, reviewing the Elba II situation, there's nothing wrong with the bloody thing. The Enterprise considered defeating the shield over the asylum but the likely bleedthrough from defeating it could have destroyed the facility.
They don't need to be shooting right above the asylum to put a hole through the shield. You know, like they could actually shoot 30 km north of the asylum, for example...
Later they considered dropping a shuttle through the shield somehow on the opposite side of the planet where the shield was weakest, but the shuttle would not have been able to fly afterward, and any team they sent would have to travel overland half the circumference of the planet.
And? Either they'd do it after putting a hole through the shield's weakest point, or it means one could literally cram a shuttle through the weakest point without even putting a hole through it beforehand.
In either case, it requires speculation as to why this happens but I see no meaningful relation to the issue at hand. The script doesn't exactly explain why the crew would have to go on foot from there.
Even then they would, per Scotty, not be able to have anything with them capable of penetrating the asylum dome. Only starship weaponry could do so, and even if they ruptured the protective dome it would probably have killed everyone due to the poisonous atmosphere.

Finally it dawns on them to try to penetrate the shield on the aforementioned weak farside, which would have the benefit of not killing the asylum dome residents.

So, to summarize, save for the missing technobabble about how the shuttle could penetrate but that would render it incapable of flight, the shield makes perfect normal sense.
I beg to differ, for very obvious reasons.
I covered many of these problems here and here already, but I'm going to provide comments in a different fashion in this thread.
Transcript time. Behold.
Whom Gods Destroy wrote: SCOTT: Mister Sulu, what do your sensors show?
SULU: We can't beam anybody down, sir. The force field on the planet is in full operation, and all forms of transport into the asylum dome are blocked off.
SCOTT: We could blast our way through the field, but only at the risk of destroying the Captain, Mister Spock and any other living thing on Elba Two. [The first time I read this, without being aware of the planet-wide attribute of the force field, it did make sense as I thought it described a theater shield. But now... either these people are absolute cretins for not figuring out not to shoot right ontop the asylum, or there's something else about that force field that's a wee bit different from a typical shield.]
MCCOY: How can we be powerful enough to wipe out a planet and still be so helpless?
GARTH: But I've arranged a more merciful end for her because after all, Captain, she is my consort. One tiny crystal implanted in her necklace, a portion of this explosive no bigger than a grain of sand. I propose to detonate it from here. [For the reminder, a vial of that stuff was said by the mad genius to be able to vaporize the entire planet. Not sure how many grains you can put in that vial but it may seem that Garth was overestimating his voodoo juice by a notch or two after all.]
(Marta is left alone, choking.)
GARTH: Poor girl. Poor, dear, suffering child. I will help her now.
(Boom!)

[Bridge]

SULU: There's been an explosion on Elba Two!
SCOTT: Point nine five! [OMG! That's almost... ONE!]
MCCOY: It must've wiped out everything. [A very powerful explosive. For example, grains of antimatter would already weigh several grams, more than enough to generate a hefty multi-kiloton explosion.]
SCOTT: Immediate probe. Is the force field in place, Mister Sulu?
SULU: Yes, sir. Solidly.
UHURA: (at Spock's station) Life continues to exist on the planet. [Despite occuring very close to the dome (Marta had no suit), the dome's still there! We can conclude that only direct fire from a capital ship could get through the shell.]
MCCOY: Got to break through it somehow.
SCOTT: Doctor, I told you we couldn't do it without killing everyone in the asylum dome. [Two elements: 1: implies that they could actually get through the force field, but it would kill all the people in the asylum. 2: in all that time (and to recoup a similar commentary from above), not a single one of them suggested that maybe they should try shooting further away from the dome (5, 20, 100 km away, who knows?) in order to avoid killing people down there beccause of bleedthrough firepower? Sorry, but that makes them be complete morons and it's hard to believe. Unless, for the sake of their intelligence and a sense of respect, that where you shoot on the force field doesn't really matter regarding the unavoidable fatal consequences under the very, very solid dome. Thus hinting that the moment you poke the shield with some blunt force, the asylum housing the shield generator explodes regardless of where you aimed at. Hence the unstable explosive generator "theory".]
MCCOY: I know it, Scotty.
SCOTT: Well, there's one last thing we might try. Perhaps the ship's phasers can cut through a section of the force field at its weakest point. Where did you say that was located, Mister Sulu?
SULU: On the far side of the planet, Mister Scott.
MCCOY: Will it leave a margin of safety for the people below?
SULU: Yes, sir. [Now that is precious. They're planning on drilling a hole through the other side of the planet-wide force field and still are seriously asking about the survival rate of the people stuck under the super sturdy dome! This is impossible to take at face value unless, again, that force field is so fubar that the moment you crack it open, it blows up no matter what... or perhaps if you aim for a weakspot, you needn't apply the full array of the ship's firepower (beams + torps) and you may get through, but without overloading the generator and thus not killing the people bunkered inside a super tough compound on the other side of the world. If we assume that the Enterprise had torpedoes, it is indeed interesting to notice then that they chose to rely on the phasers only, and tried to achieve some kind of "clean cut" by narrowing the beams. Perhaps to really make it efficient and maximize the intensity, reduce the energetic waste from weapon fire and thus lower the risk of a dramatic overloading.]
SCOTT: Prepare to change orbital path, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Orbital co-ordinates released, sir.
SCOTT: Break synchronous orbit. Come to course one four mark six eight.
(after a few moments)
SULU: Course one four mark six eight. Synchronous orbit re-established, sir.
SCOTT: Ship's phasers to narrow beam.
SULU: Ship's phasers ready, sir.
SCOTT: Let's punch a hole in it. Full power. Another blast, full power.
SULU: Force field still holding, sir. [They may continue firing, we don't know. I suppose they would for quite some time. The episode ends quickly after that (perhaps a dozen minutes?). At some point Spock proposes to beam down some people, which strongly suggests that the Enterprise had stoppped firing and failed to get through.]
Thus, unless one agrees with the exploding shield generator and its supplement that it was pushed to insane limits, the episode's plot really runs in full retard'o mode, as evidenced by my earlier comments in the two posts I linked to.
Also, I would like to quote and second sonofccn's summary of the situation, made in this thread before I sullied it with my nefarious presence:

The majority of the evidence suggest, from the 23rd century onward, the Federation has the capability, if not necessarily the will, to shield its planets. In addition to surface emplacements, theater and installation shields as well as local defense ships we've seen them employ. Suffice it to say I don't think planetary defense is a particularly weak link in the Federation.
There is no such "majority of evidence". It's only speculation of the highest order. Maybe you could pick up where sonofccn left?

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:44 am

That was another long post with a lot of extraneous stuff, so I'm gonna hit the highlights to try to focus in on the meat amd potatoes.
Yet such attributes, both being world-encompassing and impenetrable when attacked by a powerful weapon, all rolled into one super shield, have not been observed yet.


Elba II comes rather close. The Enterprise failed to cut through at a weak point despite repeated phaser strikes before Kirk and Spock resolved the issue themselves. And that at a mere asylum under a dome that housed just over a dozen loonies. It is hardly beyond the pale to assume, even with no other evidence, that major world defenses might have sterner stuff.

Moreover, any rarely seen technology you wish to deny is subject to the same argument you make, meaning your argument is fundamentally flawed. "Yet such attributes, both being potentially-Borg-Cube-destroying and emerging from the deflector dish, have not been observed yet." Or how about the Dominion sun-destroying doodad from GooBashir, et cetera. If not actually an argument from ignorance it at least comes close.

So, along with my earlier rundown, I'd say, barring a brilliant counterargument as yet unseen, I reject your denial that Elba II's planetary shield is not demonstrative of Federation planetary shields.

Also, while we're at it, although the Nihydron and Mawasi vessels got short shrift, the fact remains that Voyager was hardly an epically shielded vessel by comparison, as you claim. None of the temporally-shielded ships hit by the beam held up terribly well. It would take steonger shields to be protected from direct strike.
You assume the protection will be perfect.


Nope. That is neither stated nor implied. Chakotay said planets can be protected. That means exactly that. You've claimed it means less. That doesn't mean I claim it means more.

Part of having Annorax stand down is precisely done by Chakotay trying his best to deceive Annorax into thinking that the battle to come is pointless, that he'll probably be damaged (with destruction obviously implied) and that he won't be able to endanger the home worlds anymore (because ships and unspecified other assets would get the shield upgrade).


We are in agreement (except for "deceive", since there is none, really) right up until you start adding things there at the end in parentheses. The result of the additions is confusion and self-contradiction.

Indeed, let's dispense with the claim that Chakotay was bluffing. He suggested to Annorax that Janeway wouldn't attack unless she could hit the weapon-ship. This was true. Chakotay didn't spill the fact of how (inside intervention nerfing the extratemporal protection the weapon-ship enjoyed), but the statement itself is not inaccurate.
First of all, the Ram Izad didn't get the upgrade.


And what, praytell, made you think I thought otherwise? The point was that Annorax went along merrily incurring even with temporally-shielded Voyager running amok. Ergo, the mere existence of temporally-shielded objects does not, in and of itself, break the calculations.
More seriously, the sheer grammatical structure of Chakotay's lines isn't really adequate, because at no point he refers to the alien species themselves before eventually using "they" as a replacement for them. I highlighted the entities he mentionned.
But let's have that slide.


No, let's not, because it is important you understand *why* you are wrong. It was an unreasonable abuse of context. By your argument, I could say something like "if the captain of the USS Carl Vinson has transmitted computer virus defense to their allies, they can protect their servers" . . . and yet you insisted that only the French and English ships accompanying the Vinson could be the executors of the protection.

That's really quite stupefyingly absurd. The protection is not copy-protected. The fact that Janeway could transmit it at all after loading it on alien hardware proves that.

This sort of argumentation on your part, frequent in this thread, is why I was dismissive of and deriding your claims.

(And, as a side note, you even go so far as to suggest there is no evidence for any groups beyond those ships, which is just rejectionism.)

Finally, let's return to the simple fact is that a temporally-shielded building or ship or fleet or whatever simply does not equal a protected planet. Using the Ram Izad as an example, let's suppose they had a temporally-shielded battlefleet in orbit, and Annorax accounted for it in calculations. What's the result of an attack? A battlefleet of artifacts from a [s]dead[/s] never-existed civilization hovering atop a verdant and unspoiled world, or a colony of somebody else . . . whatever. Only the shielded remain.

So what, praytell, are these components going to do now? What do they represent bit some missing material from the new timeline? Given the actual and successful removal of the Ram Izad despite Voyager's temporally-shielded existence, we can hardly claim any magical temporal whiplash that throws all Annorax's plans to the dirt. Indeed, if he needed to de-exist a specific ship or object with only starship-grade shields, he could.. Thus, again, ypur claim is without merit.

You can waste as much time as you like quoting and commenting in yellow trying to pee on things (maybe Elba II was a loser and low-energy?), but the facts remain unchanged no matter how much resistance typing you do. It is quite simple. SonofCCN was correct.

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Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek

Post by 2046 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:58 am

N.B. the last paragraph above was for the anti-Trump joke. Calm down.

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