Split: Comparing SFJN to other sites: Biased or not?

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Mike DiCenso
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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:58 am

Sadly the ST-v-SW.Net is no longer active. Just look at the the dates on the most recent posts.
-Mike

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:50 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:It's very unlikely IMHO that Wong himself will ever come over here to engage in any debate. His last excuse when challenged by Captain Newland to come over to the STrek-v-SWars.Net forum and debate him was that he (Wong) would not debate anyone who did not have a degree or other "credentials"
And those who supply credentials are liable to be attacked and harassed even more - which is why I am uninterested in supplying "proof" of my formal education, and minimize the amount of personally identifiable information I put up on this website. Wong is welcome to come over to debate - as is any other SDN resident - if and only if he is willing to follow board rules.
Socar wrote:I find that surprising, considering how many people (such as his own Governors and Senators) that he debates with on SDN all the time that don’t have degrees of any sort. Not sure exactly what he means by other “credentials” though. I do remember Captain Newland admitting to having almost no science knowledge though, so that could be it, even though he was more interested in debating tactics and stuff of that nature, so I don’t really see why that would mean he’s not worthy of debating.
Mike DiCenso wrote:With the first part there it is more one of politics. Wong can't afford to alienate some of those people. I don't recall the specifics anymore of what Captain Newland said about his own science knowledge. But that really isn't the point, as I recall Wong's response to the challenge ( believe Swede was acting as the messenger there). I believe CN's mentioning his lack of science knowledge and what-have-you was part of the post challenge reponse discussion. At any rate, it was pretty heated, and Wong's excuse was hypocritical to say the least given the past history of the man as even you point out.
It may be hypocritical; it may be illogical. However, it is the party line consistently given by Wong, loudly and repeatedly. The claim of that party line is that all educated individuals will inevitably fall in line with his claims - and that pro-Trek VS debaters are equivalent to creationists, of course. This ties into the claim often made on SDN that the debate is over and "won."

The simple fact is that the vast majority of VS debaters are not possessed of the formal education of a bachelor's degree or any other measurable equivalent to 4 years of study within a post-secondary institution. This does not change the validity of their contributions one whit.

Even in serious academic fields (e.g., the mathematical sciences), those without formal educations can continue to contribute. In the considerably less scientific field of fandom studies, someone without a high school diploma may possess a better grasp of Star Wars than someone holding a doctorate in physics.

In any event, those with formal educations - such as myself, Schneider, Kennedy, Wong, or Saxton - should know better than to claim that a formal education can turn you into an authority on Star Trek or Star Wars.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:27 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:It's very unlikely IMHO that Wong himself will ever come over here to engage in any debate. His last excuse when challenged by Captain Newland to come over to the STrek-v-SWars.Net forum and debate him was that he (Wong) would not debate anyone who did not have a degree or other "credentials"
Jedi Master Spock wrote:
And those who supply credentials are liable to be attacked and harassed even more - which is why I am uninterested in supplying "proof" of my formal education, and minimize the amount of personally identifiable information I put up on this website. Wong is welcome to come over to debate - as is any other SDN resident - if and only if he is willing to follow board rules.
As we have seen all too often in the past with Graham Kennedy and Bernd
Schneider, the Wong and his cohorts will relentlessly attack a person, no matter what formal degree or degrees or experiance the person may have in a science and or engineering related field. It is unfortunate that Graham gave in to it all those years ago, as that seems to be what helped fuel Wong's other negative behaviors towards anyone who holds a viewpoint counter to his own.

As I pointed out before, JMS, it is highly unlikely, no matter how you welcome him, that Wong will ever come over here or anywhere else where he does not have control to quash those who hold opposing viewpoints to his own.

Mike DiCenso wrote:With the first part there it is more one of politics. Wong can't afford to alienate some of those people. I don't recall the specifics anymore of what Captain Newland said about his own science knowledge. But that really isn't the point, as I recall Wong's response to the challenge ( believe Swede was acting as the messenger there). I believe CN's mentioning his lack of science knowledge and what-have-you was part of the post challenge reponse discussion. At any rate, it was pretty heated, and Wong's excuse was hypocritical to say the least given the past history of the man as even you point out.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:
It may be hypocritical; it may be illogical. However, it is the party line consistently given by Wong, loudly and repeatedly. The claim of that party line is that all educated individuals will inevitably fall in line with his claims - and that pro-Trek VS debaters are equivalent to creationists, of course. This ties into the claim often made on SDN that the debate is over and "won."
Which again is why Wong will never come over here. To do so would essentially be an admission that the debate is not over, nor truely won in any sense of the word. He would rather have you or any one of us come over to SDN so that he can place posts in the Hall of Shame, or otherwise delete, lock out, modify, and completely control it in order to make it look like he is winning. To come over here or go elsewhere is to give up the power and adulation he has come to crave.

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
The simple fact is that the vast majority of VS debaters are not possessed of the formal education of a bachelor's degree or any other measurable equivalent to 4 years of study within a post-secondary institution. This does not change the validity of their contributions one whit.


Again, all very true. Many good contributions have come from people who do not hold formal degrees. I have no problem with that, so long as there is proper evidence provided for the claims, and it can be put through a proper peer review process.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:
Even in serious academic fields (e.g., the mathematical sciences), those without formal educations can continue to contribute. In the considerably less scientific field of fandom studies, someone without a high school diploma may possess a better grasp of Star Wars than someone holding a doctorate in physics.
It certainly helps to have some training and experiance when discussing certain science and engineering related subjects, but there are plenty of self-educated hobbyists out there who do know the basics of the subjects. Also one of the reasons for the debates was to kind of provide some knowledge on real science for people by showing up the failings that often occur in space operas like ST and SW. However that kind of thing was long ago lost in the debates, replaced by the vicious one-upsmanship and elitism that we seen today.
-Mike

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Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:10 am

I am forced to agree with Mike DiCenso's psychological analysis of Wong. He is the king of his forum and can control, either directly or through his lieutenants, basically everything that goes on there. Here, or anywhere else beyond SD.net, he lacks that control so he doesn't bother. And about the debate being over thing, I think someone asked about that and why SD.net still has an active Trek v Wars forum a month ago or two and didn't really get a good answer.

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Post by Socar » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:28 am

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote:And about the debate being over thing, I think someone asked about that and why SD.net still has an active Trek v Wars forum a month ago or two and didn't really get a good answer.
The fact that the board is part of a Trek vs Wars website in their mind probably justifies it having a Trek vs Wars forum by default.

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Post by Kane Starkiller » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:13 pm

Actually Michael Wong is not above discussing various subjects with people with no formal training in science and engineering even though he does sometimes express his wish that only scientifically educated people should post scientific subjects on the internet.
Here are two threads from SD.net in which he does correspond about ST and SW subjects via e-mail:
+http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=93621
+http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=90971

So if any of you think you have valid points on various STvsSW subjects you are free to e-mail him. Response isn't guaranteed but he ceartainly doesn't categorically refuse to answer any e-mail whose senders don't have a technical background.

P.S. It always found it amusing to hear accusations of Michael Wong "oppressing" his boards through his "lieutenants". How is this possible on a web board? If you don't like it you leave, it's not as if web board is a country so you have no choice but to put up with a brutal regime. Yet SD.net has 3200 members. Why would thousands of members post on a board which is "oppresing" them? Or are you saying that all of those people are his "lieutenants"?

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Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:46 pm

Kane, most of them are not his lieutenants. However the vast majority either don't care about the versus debate and are there for other things, or for the most part agree with Wong's views on the Trek and Wars universes. And you're right, if a Trek supporter doesn't like the way they are treated on SD.net they can just leave, which most of them do.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:45 pm

Heh, and here I though you were gone for good, Kane. ;-)

Anyway, not everyone there at SDN are elitest sycophants of Wong's. That would be patently unfair to probably the majority of people, some of whom are very reasonable people (Socar reminded us of this during the discussions on the old ST-v-SW.Net forum, and the Strek-v-SWars.Net forums). I would say that AnonymousRedShirtEnsign sums up the situation nicely in that regard. Another thing to keep in mind that is different here than at SDN, Starfleet Jedi does not have a Hall of Shame. Jedi Master Spock does not have a Hate Mail page, nor has demonstrated any need to trot out sock puppet versions of either youself Kane, nor any other pro-Wars debator, as Wong and company have done at SDN with pro-Trek people who refuse to subscribe to his viewpoint. Nor does JMS or anyone else here go around modifying your posts to make you look stupid, nor has anyone else "archived" your postings here, only to modify them to make you look like a raving net.kook lunatic as Wong and Poe have repeatedly done over the years with many good people.

The worst you've gotten here is a more than justified warning for rude behavior towards others who don't hold the same view as you. He has been more than fair all around so far in giving out warnings. That's far better treatment than I or anyone else here could expect to receive at SDN, no matter how well presented my arguements were, or how much evidence I were to provide to back it up, and a degree to boot. I also don't need a bunch of rabid nutjobs calling me at work, or my home to make threats or harass me because Wong or his lieutenants "accidently" release my personal information for everyone to see (this has happened at SDN to too many others in the past). That won't happen here to you. The fact that you can keep bouncing in and out of this forum without retaliation (being banned, or your account closed down after claiming you were leaving) shows just how tolerant a guy JMS is.

There is a whole world of difference here between the two forums.
-Mike

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Post by GStone » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:00 am

I think I figured out earlier about how Wong et all demand credentials of some and not others. As long as they use the same or similar arguments with the overall idea of the inflated ideas of the Wongians and the Saxtonian fanatics (this doesn't incude those that could be fans of either Wong or Saxton and aren't rabid buttons pushers and harassers), it doesn't matter if the poster has any degree or not because they aren't really using their own arguments, but the ones of those that have come before them that have credentials. Such as continuously holding onto the ICSs of ep 2 and 3, wanting to override the movies and coming up with reasons to explain the inflated numbers. It isn't their ideas they are using, but those that "have credentials", so Wong et all gives them a pass.

But, if you stray too far from their view, it's credential clobberin' time! So, look out!

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Post by Nonamer » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:10 am

Kane Starkiller wrote:Actually Michael Wong is not above discussing various subjects with people with no formal training in science and engineering even though he does sometimes express his wish that only scientifically educated people should post scientific subjects on the internet.
Here are two threads from SD.net in which he does correspond about ST and SW subjects via e-mail:
+http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=93621
+http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=90971

So if any of you think you have valid points on various STvsSW subjects you are free to e-mail him. Response isn't guaranteed but he ceartainly doesn't categorically refuse to answer any e-mail whose senders don't have a technical background.

P.S. It always found it amusing to hear accusations of Michael Wong "oppressing" his boards through his "lieutenants". How is this possible on a web board? If you don't like it you leave, it's not as if web board is a country so you have no choice but to put up with a brutal regime. Yet SD.net has 3200 members. Why would thousands of members post on a board which is "oppresing" them? Or are you saying that all of those people are his "lieutenants"?
Surely you jest Kane. Ever notice that not only are there nearly no Trekkies, or even no anti-ICSers, there are also nearly no conservatives or religious people. And these just so happen to be things Mike Wong strongly oppose. Coincidence? I'll let you decide, but the answer should be obvious.

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Post by Kane Starkiller » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:53 am

Nonamer wrote:Surely you jest Kane. Ever notice that not only are there nearly no Trekkies, or even no anti-ICSers, there are also nearly no conservatives or religious people. And these just so happen to be things Mike Wong strongly oppose. Coincidence? I'll let you decide, but the answer should be obvious.
Oh sure sure. That's why there are constant heated discussions all over "Science, Logic and Morality" and "News and Politics" threads with dozens of people participating.
And of course EnterpriseSovereign, Alyeska, Chris O'Farell etc. etc. are not Trek fans. No siree.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:30 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:I also don't need a bunch of rabid nutjobs calling me at work, or my home to make threats or harass me because Wong or his lieutenants "accidently" release my personal information for everyone to see (this has happened at SDN to too many others in the past). That won't happen here to you.
I should hope not.

Thank you for reminding me that I should post up my policies in the rules section, in particular a privacy policy.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:17 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:
Nonamer wrote:Surely you jest Kane. Ever notice that not only are there nearly no Trekkies, or even no anti-ICSers, there are also nearly no conservatives or religious people. And these just so happen to be things Mike Wong strongly oppose. Coincidence? I'll let you decide, but the answer should be obvious.
Oh sure sure. That's why there are constant heated discussions all over "Science, Logic and Morality" and "News and Politics" threads with dozens of people participating.
And of course EnterpriseSovereign, Alyeska, Chris O'Farell etc. etc. are not Trek fans. No siree.
He said "nearly no Trekkies", Kane, not that there were none. He is correct in that they do represent a relative minority of the overall population at SDN.
-Mike

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Post by Nonamer » Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:18 pm

And guys like Alyeska can hardly be considered "Trekkies." In fact at SB.com some find it hard to believe guys like that were ever trekkies. The other categories are also really small, and seems to exist soley to get bashed at, something like Colmes is to Sean Hannity on the Hannity and Colmes show.

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Post by Enterprise E » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:55 pm

Yeah, I remember at SB one time where a Trekkie really didn't know what he was talking about, so I and a couple others, I don't know if was one of them helped out, putting this guys argument into coherence and adding some supporting evidence. Alyeska gave me and the others who tried to help this guy, and stick up for my helping him, a warning despite the fact that we did so politely and we politely asked why were not allowed to help him. If anything sums up the biased nature of Spacebattles, that was it and I think that they came out looking worse than we did.

I originally started out in this debate as unbiased as possible since I loved, and still do, both Star Trek and Star Wars. But I do think that it is almost impossible to not have at least some bias, even if it is only minute, if you deal with the radicals of either side. And I believe that the radical Warsies are far worse than the radical Trekkies, though to be fair, I haven't met many radical Trekkies. As a result, I am a little biased now in favor of Trek, though whenever I start threads, I always specify what evidence is allowed, and what isn't. And if I allow TDiC, I will allow the ICS books, as far as firepower goes. That 10 lightminute range for the Venator's turbolasers with accuracy really is contradicted directly by every other movie and book in existance and is so absurd, words fail me. And what little bias I have is simply because I don't trust many of the Pro-Wars debators or the "evidence" they try to shove in my face.

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