Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:43 pm

theta_pinch wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
theta_pinch wrote:If the wormhole opened up near coruscant the Federation could bombard the surface and deal a major blow to the Empire.
Huh, sounds more like a silly scenario. Same as if the wormhole opens above Earth, goodbye?
Besides, I'm pretty sure that Coruscant is not essential to the Empire, and any attack on the planet is surely going to put a lot of people on the side of the Empire. Propaganda will only be the cherry on top.
No not that close. Around the distance the wormhole appeared away from earth, right inside the federation.
With FTL, that's just about down the road you know. Go get me cigs sort of trip routine.
So point still stands. :P

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Re: Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

Post by theta_pinch » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:45 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
theta_pinch wrote:
theta_pinch wrote:If the wormhole opened up near coruscant the Federation could bombard the surface and deal a major blow to the Empire.
Huh, sounds more like a silly scenario. Same as if the wormhole opens above Earth, goodbye?
Besides, I'm pretty sure that Coruscant is not essential to the Empire, and any attack on the planet is surely going to put a lot of people on the side of the Empire. Propaganda will only be the cherry on top.
No not that close. Around the distance the wormhole appeared away from earth, right inside the federation.
With FTL, that's just about down the road you know. Go get me cigs sort of trip routine.
So point still stands. :P
that would be about 4000 light years. At maximum warp that would take around or a little more than a week going by the warp speeds seen in TNG: The Chase. That's more like a major road trip.

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Re: Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:40 pm

Actually, "The Chase" shows Professor Galen tracing a route that covers about ten times that distance and could be traversed in a few days with the E-D pushing her engines to maximum.

Perhaps you were thinking of "The Best of Both Worlds", which took place over the course of six days, and the E-D was crippled and in need of repairs for the better part of a day, after having fired the deflector dish weapon.
-Mike

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Re: Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

Post by Mith » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:03 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:End result, they try to buy each other's tech and once both sides are more even, the Empire wins by sheer volume superiority.
I wouldn't go that far. Even the Cardassians, who've been around a great deal longer than the Empire, haven't been able to get themselves on the same footing as Federations ships for decades. The closest they've ever gotten is when they'd joined the Dominion and even then, their ships seemed at best, to be light cruisers. The Empire has a great deal of catching up compared to them and all that time, the Federation will be advancing technologically.
The Empire gets rid of those mines by simply spamming the entire region with clouds of crap-droids or anything similar until the path is clear and no mines are left or reproduce fast enough to seal the gap.
If Starfleet can choke off the Empire at the wormhole, there is no way they're getting through to the Alpha Quadrant. The self-replicating mines draw energy from zero-point energy; they're basically harnessing free energy. Any attempt at pressing through is simply going to be a waste of energy and resources.

And even if that weren't the case, the Klingons had planned to mine the entire Bajor system with a cloaked minefield.

And this doesn't even take into account the massive expense that the Empire will incur in attempting to take the Federation. They already dedicate a great deal of their resources on internal problems, so attempting to invade the Federation is going to compound the issue. And while this is all going on, the Federation can go to the nearest planet, procure a hyperdrive, take it back home, study it, and produce their own. Presumably not as good of course, but since the Empire basically has the entire galaxy mapped out (well, their portion of it, anyway), performing hit and run attacks against Imperial targets is going to be fairly easy. Meanwhile, Starfleet can also learn about hyperdrive; learn that producing gravity shadows and mining highways can effectively neuter an invasion force.

Eventually, Section 31 is going to step in.
Meanwhile if the UFP starts to get trigger happy with their one-shotsuper toys, the Empire might well reduce the size of the Death Star and build more of them instead. Not to say that the implementation of some UFP tech and tech from its allies or enemies obtained on the black market are surely going to seriously halt the UFP. Meanwhile the Empire's best technologies are hardly shared at all and what you find on the black market is inferior and not going to make a huge difference in the end.
It actually will. Just learning how to hamper hyperdrive technology and increasing internal turmoil within the Empire will be enough to keep themselves safe. If matters do appear desperate, it's obvious that Section 31 can simply trigger a supernova in Coruscant's star and watch as the Empire crumbles in its wake.

Also, the Empire is likely to use the world devastators, rather than try and build smaller, more numerous Death Stars.

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Re: Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:58 am

Mith wrote:And this doesn't even take into account the massive expense that the Empire will incur in attempting to take the Federation. They already dedicate a great deal of their resources on internal problems, so attempting to invade the Federation is going to compound the issue. And while this is all going on, the Federation can go to the nearest planet, procure a hyperdrive, take it back home, study it, and produce their own. Presumably not as good of course, but since the Empire basically has the entire galaxy mapped out (well, their portion of it, anyway), performing hit and run attacks against Imperial targets is going to be fairly easy. Meanwhile, Starfleet can also learn about hyperdrive; learn that producing gravity shadows and mining highways can effectively neuter an invasion force.
Mining the wormhole is certainly important, but even then, if somehow the Imperial Navy's scouts and other forces broke through, their efforts would crawl to a halt without any means to quickly map or obtain maps of the Milky Way.

Ever since Star Wars: The Clone Wars CGI movie and series came out and established hyperspace lanes as high level canon, it has pretty much killed the once over-touted advantage. It took two years between ANH and TESB for the Empire with thousands of probe droids scouring through well-charted space just to find a rag tag Rebel base on Hoth, and suddenly these same probe droids are going to map all the Milky Way, or at least the Alpha and Beta Quadrants? I don't think so...

As if that was bad enough, the EU establishes that it took many centuries to just map one major hyperlane. So the Empire will be largely stalled out trying to stumble about in the proverbial dark.

I mean, we could have a whole Star Wars series with a Voyager-like premise!

The same is true in turn for the Federation. With no maps and possibly no one likely to aid them, the Federation won't make much headway in any counter offensive.

Which gets to my preference which has never been on any of the polls: I chose for a draw between the two powers.
-Mike

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Re: Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

Post by Mith » Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:35 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Mining the wormhole is certainly important, but even then, if somehow the Imperial Navy's scouts and other forces broke through, their efforts would crawl to a halt without any means to quickly map or obtain maps of the Milky Way.

Ever since Star Wars: The Clone Wars CGI movie and series came out and established hyperspace lanes as high level canon, it has pretty much killed the once over-touted advantage. It took two years between ANH and TESB for the Empire with thousands of probe droids scouring through well-charted space just to find a rag tag Rebel base on Hoth, and suddenly these same probe droids are going to map all the Milky Way, or at least the Alpha and Beta Quadrants? I don't think so...

As if that was bad enough, the EU establishes that it took many centuries to just map one major hyperlane. So the Empire will be largely stalled out trying to stumble about in the proverbial dark.

I mean, we could have a whole Star Wars series with a Voyager-like premise!
I don't know if it'd take that long. Most of the original hyperlanes were discovered in the early ages before even the Republic, weren't they? And the hyperlanes available to them now would be much greater. However, I would agree that even if they got some ships out, once the wormhole was closed off, there isn't much they could do.
The same is true in turn for the Federation. With no maps and possibly no one likely to aid them, the Federation won't make much headway in any counter offensive.

Which gets to my preference which has never been on any of the polls: I chose for a draw between the two powers.
-Mike
Well, it's possible that the Empire will attempt to bide its time, try to open peace talks, and get their hands on some more advanced technology. But I suspect Starfleet Intelligence will do the same; getting hyperdrive technology would allow them to be able to make deep-strike missions against the Empire. It would also allow the Federation and their allies to better understand how to stop someone with hyperdrive technology.

I think, that once Starfleet bottlenecks the wormhole, Emperor Palpatine will try to play nice, at least long enough until he can figure out what to do about the minefield and how to even the technological advantage. I'm sure he'll try to pull much the same trick as the Dominion; use a weak, foreign power to establish a hold in the Alpha Quadrant. If it's close enough and he's aware of their situation, he might try to recruit the broken Cardassian Union, but I suspect that this won't bear much fruit. The Federation wouldn't tolerate the Cardassians being burdened in such a way that joining yet another foreign Empire is attractive.

The Breen might and if this during the loss of Romulus, a faction might join them. But overall, I can't see the Empire pushing far into the ST galaxy. And as long as he's contained with the mines, the Federation won't have a reason to try and bring down the Empire. Although again, I think Section 31 just might...

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Re: Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:32 am

Mith wrote:I don't know if it'd take that long. Most of the original hyperlanes were discovered in the early ages before even the Republic, weren't they? And the hyperlanes available to them now would be much greater. However, I would agree that even if they got some ships out, once the wormhole was closed off, there isn't much they could do.
Given that technology in the Star Wars galaxy has not changed much in thousands of years, I don't expect that we'd see much of an improvement in their ability to chart a large galaxy like the Milky Way from complete scratch in any reasonable time frame. More to the point, during the Clone Wars, as shown in the movie, no one even tried suggesting that a new hyperlane or lanes be charted to bypass the one ones blockaded by the CIS forces. So in all that time that the Clone Wars dragged on. Neither side had the time to chart new ones, and I doubt that that the Empire would be able to do better all things considered, even if they do somehow manage a breakout from the wormhole.
-Mike

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Re: Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

Post by Mith » Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:50 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Given that technology in the Star Wars galaxy has not changed much in thousands of years, I don't expect that we'd see much of an improvement in their ability to chart a large galaxy like the Milky Way from complete scratch in any reasonable time frame.
Their technology does change, but it changes in minute ways. They happen in increments so small that you'd barely notice them, but they do happen. Of course, even then, you are correct, the technological advancement is so slow that it's almost standing still.
More to the point, during the Clone Wars, as shown in the movie, no one even tried suggesting that a new hyperlane or lanes be charted to bypass the one ones blockaded by the CIS forces.
Well, the problem isn't that there weren't alternate lanes. There were--the real problem was that the CIS had blocked all the fast/faster lanes. This is a problem because if the Republic had tried to use alternate lanes, the CIS would have been able to redeploy faster and more effectively to intercept them. Hence the need to go to the Hutts.

This same problem does carry over into Star Trek; when the Federation gets an understanding of how hyperspace works, they'll be able to mine access to the better hyperlanes and that will effectively neuter the Empire in any attempts to re-deploy. Even if the Empire has managed to find a way to mount warp drives, they're going to be using older, less efficient models. They're not going to be able to keep up against the local powers who have better navigational knowledge and faster warp drive.
So in all that time that the Clone Wars dragged on. Neither side had the time to chart new ones, and I doubt that that the Empire would be able to do better all things considered, even if they do somehow manage a breakout from the wormhole.
-Mike
Eh, not entirely. You're right in that it takes a long time and cutting off a few lanes can hamper a military force. Perhaps this will help:

Star Wars Essential Guide to Warfare:
Routes are blazed by hyperspace scouts who make repeated microjumps and take careful surveys to record objects' positions. Those routes are then optimized and kept stable through constant tweaks to account for the ceaseless swirl of the stars, with new route and sensor data uploaded from starships when they reach spaceports. This constant flow of data allows well-traveled routes to remain stable, barring some catastrophic change along their lengths. Rarely used routes, on the other hand, can vanish within a few years.

As calculating a safe hyperspace route requires estimating the position of innumerable realspace objects, it demands immense computing power and memory. For much of galactic history, no starship had sufficient computing resources to calculate long jumps quickly or to keep more than a few courses in memory. Instead, massive supercomputers were constructed in deep space at the jumping-off points for common routes, and performed the calculations for starships. Space stations were built near or actually around these jump beacons, creating a series of way stations for travelers.

During the jump-beacon era, military forces could effectively pin ships at a given point by disabling its beacon. But by the 4100s BBY, that era was nearing its end: New navicomputers could store thousands of routes and calculate them with reasonable efficiency. Wary of rumblings beyond the Republic frontier, the Republic Navy conducted crash research to ensure that its ships could cross the galaxy quickly and safely without having to rely on beacons or spaceport data stacks. When war with the Sith and the Mandalorians reached Republic space, the navy destroyed many beacons in an effort to deny its enemies easy passage into the heart of the Republic.

After the jump-beacon era ended, any starship with a working navicomputer could traverse any known route in the galaxy. that made controlling hyperspace lanes far more challenging, as blockading one route merely pushed ships to one of many alternate ones.

Still, the way hyperspace travel had evolved made a seemingly impossible job somewhat easier. Many paths may connect points A and B, but only a few of them can be traveled quickly, and a military force that controls the fast routes can redeploy to intercept an adversary using the slow ones.
I mean, you are right; it would take a long time for the Empire to establish new hyperlanes and they wouldn't be very long ones unless they got really lucky. However, if they're able to establish a forward foothold within the ST galaxy or manage to open trade negotiations, they'd be able to set up a few trade-routes. Of course, the problem does again, come down to the vulnerability of these hyperlanes.

The real danger I think, isn't that it takes so long to establish new lanes; it's the fact that once Starfleet gets wind of it and is able to learn how to mine them, that the Empire effectively becomes bottle-necked (again). Even if they can find more lanes than the Federation can block, they won't be fast or efficient and the more time Starfleet has to study hyperspace, the more time they have to develop countermeasures.

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Re: Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

Post by theta_pinch » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:07 pm

An even better possibility than self-replicating mines would be to make a field of black holes. The gravitational field would prevent any Empire ships from using hyperdrive and would tear them apart.

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Re: Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

Post by Mith » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:07 pm

theta_pinch wrote:An even better possibility than self-replicating mines would be to make a field of black holes. The gravitational field would prevent any Empire ships from using hyperdrive and would tear them apart.
That seems a bit extreme for Starfleet.

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Re: Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

Post by theta_pinch » Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:53 pm

Mith wrote:
theta_pinch wrote:An even better possibility than self-replicating mines would be to make a field of black holes. The gravitational field would prevent any Empire ships from using hyperdrive and would tear them apart.
That seems a bit extreme for Starfleet.
Why?

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Re: Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

Post by 359 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:08 am

Another issue (rather than the unlikely execution of such a plan, or the skepticism of them being able to do that) is that significant black holes in such a close proximity would just end up consuming each other eventually leaving one larger black hole remaining.

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Re: Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

Post by theta_pinch » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:37 pm

359 wrote:Another issue (rather than the unlikely execution of such a plan, or the skepticism of them being able to do that) is that significant black holes in such a close proximity would just end up consuming each other eventually leaving one larger black hole remaining.
They definitely can make black holes since the USS Voyager was able to make one for communication with starfleet and was able to make a very significant one with the navigational deflector. As to the merging problem they should be able to set them far enough apart since when the gravity gets about as weak as a planets' they shouldn't merge but should still prevent hyperdrive travel.

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Re: Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:35 pm

theta_pinch wrote:The Galactic Empire has discovered a wormhole leading to the edge of the star trek galaxy. Realizing that on the other side was a new Galaxy to be conquered by the Galactic Empire the Galactic Empire starts invading leading to an all out war with the United Federation of Planets. Who wins?
The Empire has the advantage though. They get through the wormhole before the UFP, which is reacting. The Empire would obviously not launch an all out attack on a new galaxy without having largely secured the only point of access into this new realm.
So the UFP would first have to push the Empire back, which is hardly going to happen that easily.
In order to launch such a vast attack, the Empire will need heaps of recon and intelligence data. They'll also need to map roads. They simply can't fly randomly at a snail pace, and funny thing, the UFP won't be meeting them until the Empire precisely has the means to reach the UFP relatively safely on its own method.
Besides, the Empire has no reason to assume the galaxy they seek to control is empty, so they'll clearly adopt a safe approach first.
They have the initiative on many fronts and can big their time to acquire more data from inside the UFP and the people they trade with.


Also, concerning disrupting hyperdrives, let's remember that there are equal methods to grind warp drives to a halt:
Memory Alpha, Warp field wrote: Warp fields can be disrupted by inverse graviton bursts. In 2375, the IKS Ning'tao, under the command of Dahar Master Kor, managed to destabilize the warp fields of several pursuing Jem'Hadar attack ships by using the technique. (DS9: "Once More Unto the Breach")

The warp fields of conventional warp engines caused damage to the fabric of spacetime where subspace was unstable, eventually causing subspace to extrude into normal space, creating phenomena such as subspace rifts. In order to slow the rate of damage, the Federation Council shared their findings with all known warp-capable species in 2370 and imposed a speed limit of warp factor 5 on all Federation vessels in all but extreme emergencies. (TNG: "Force of Nature")

Destabilized Omega molecules destroy subspace through rupturing it on such a vast scale that it impossible to create a stable warp field in the area. (VOY: "The Omega Directive")
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Graviton_pulse

So since gravitons is obviously not an unknwon idea to the Empire, but on the contrary most well understood and applied through the lines of Interdictor ships, and since the Empire can also precisely screw space on purpose by building a fleet of warp capable ships with the sole purpose of flying around the wormhoe area well above warp 5 once they get warp tech, this entire scenario really takes a bad turn for the Trek side.

Finally, this entire super conquest will certainly require Vader's supervision, and that largely screws with the idea of reuniting him and Palpatine in one single place for Luke to meet them. Vader will have his hands full and won't be able to pretend hunting the rebels while only looking for his son. Palpatine will be much pleased by this turn of events.

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Re: Galactic Empire vs United Federation of Planets

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu May 01, 2014 10:19 pm

So, based on the rather old but now official paradigm regarding the Star Wars canon, we're facing a new set of parameters for our neat scenario.
Based on canonical evidence of very low firepower on the SW side, I'm finding myself to hold the rather odd view that one single Galaxy-class starship might very well be able to rape an entire fleet made of hundreds upon hundreds of star destroyers if not much more.

That, without taking into consideration the question of ranges (TV vs script).

I have a mental imagery of an ISD on a leash and *bitch* written over the hull, with the E-D looming closely astern.

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