Base Delta Zero

[Praeothmin]

Mike wrote:

Unfortunately, as the RoTS movie and novelization have it, there do not appear to be any such planetary scale shields, as there was not one in operation for Courscant, and the only shield seen thus far is the one employed by the Rebels on Hoth, which did not seem to be larger than a few tens of km in radius.

The only novel I've seen actually mention the planetary shields of Coruscant is one of the first Zahn novels, where Thrawn arrives at Coruscant, deploys cloaked asteroids and Coruscant is forced to activate the shields.

[Mr. Oragahn]

It would take a particular dishonest stance to claim that over so many pages related to the battle of Coruscant, the absence of proof is not a proof of absence.

We're talking about a planetary battle, where a planetary shield would have been mentionned in the first paragraphs related to this event.
It would have been an insanely huge factor to account for.

Another point is apparently how even the HQ of the CIS on Geonosis had no planetary shield whatsover to raise.
But you culd still pretend that they were attacked by surprise.

[Mike DiCenso]

Actually, Oragahn that's another good point there about Geonosis' apparent lack of any kind of planetary defenses, shield or otherwise with TL gun emplacements when the Republic forces land, and this on a planet supposedly famed for it's weaponeering! In fact, it also makes SW sensor systems look bad (yet again) as there was no warning for the Geonosisians of the incoming Acclamators.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Actually, Oragahn that's another good point there about Geonosis' apparent lack of any kind of planetary defenses, shield or otherwise with TL gun emplacements when the Republic forces land, and this on a planet supposedly famed for it's weaponeering! In fact, it also makes SW sensor systems look bad (yet again) as there was no warning for the Geonosisians of the incoming Acclamators.
-Mike

Could have the Geonosian forces been warned, when they've been attacked by a force that even the Republic/Jedi knew nothing about?
Is there anything in the canon that can track ships in hyperspace?

Is it just arrogance, once more, to believe that no one would attack them with so much ships present here, or find them since it was a surprise to the Jedi to see that Geonosis was a major CIS world?

[AFT]

It would take a particular dishonest stance to claim that over so many pages related to the battle of Coruscant, the absence of proof is not a proof of absence.

We're talking about a planetary battle, where a planetary shield would have been mentionned in the first paragraphs related to this event.
It would have been an insanely huge factor to account for.

Another point is apparently how even the HQ of the CIS on Geonosis had no planetary shield whatsover to raise.
But you culd still pretend that they were attacked by surprise.

Unfortunately the versus debate has lasted this long because the most rabid faction of the SW camp (that sadly seems to be the majority) has adopted precisely a very particular dishonest stance as their standard operating procedure. Things such as planetary shields are taken as granted for the SW side despite all the available evidence pointing to the exact opposite and not only that but also assuming that those shields are nearly impenetrable, while something similar for the ST side has to be explicitly shown (dialogue doesn’t count), said visuals have also to conform to their particularly point of view of how something like that has to look like and finally it has to be used on every and each instance in order to be acknowledged and even then, like planetary shields by example, those never could possible be anywhere as powerful as their SW counterparts. Evidence? What evidence? Absence of evidence is not proof of evidence of absence they are so bold (and shameless) to answer back. On stuff that they are forced to accept, like warp drive, they simply use unsupported attacks/claims to try and diminish the possible advantage: “Warp drive is pathetically slow”, “Starships cannot maneuver at warp”, “Starships cannot target STL ships while moving at FTL velocities” to only name a few. This way is impossible to make any progress to settle the versus debate once and for all.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Unfortunately the versus debate has lasted this long because the most rabid faction of the SW camp (that sadly seems to be the majority) has adopted precisely a very particular dishonest stance as their standard operating procedure. Things such as planetary shields are taken as granted for the SW side despite all the available evidence pointing to the exact opposite and not only that but also assuming that those shields are nearly impenetrable, while something similar for the ST side has to be explicitly shown (dialogue doesn’t count), said visuals have also to conform to their particularly point of view of how something like that has to look like and finally it has to be used on every and each instance in order to be acknowledged and even then, like planetary shields by example, those never could possible be anywhere as powerful as their SW counterparts. Evidence? What evidence? Absence of evidence is not proof of evidence of absence they are so bold (and shameless) to answer back. On stuff that they are forced to accept, like warp drive, they simply use unsupported attacks/claims to try and diminish the possible advantage: “Warp drive is pathetically slow”, “Starships cannot maneuver at warp”, “Starships cannot target STL ships while moving at FTL velocities” to only name a few. This way is impossible to make any progress to settle the versus debate once and for all.

The EU is full of evidence of planetary shields, and the "rabid" warsies base their evidence on EU materials.

It's two different worlds, really. However, in the higher canon, the only one to some, you're right that planetary shields are frakin absent.

The largest shields ever known were those of Hoth and the two protecting the Death Stars, though with a bit of stretch, you could easily consider that it could possible to create a planetary shield, but this would require an important array of generators.

They argue that the novelisation points to the Endor shield protecting both the moon and the battle station, but it is contradicted by the movie.

For example, what's the surface area of the shield protecting the DS2, including the extruding tube?

Then try to estimate the surface area of a planetary shield for a moon like Endor, or a planet like Earth.

And then divide that by the numebr you got from the former calculation, and you'd get a realiable estimation of how many generators you actually need to generate a planetary shield.

[CrippledVulture]

And then divide that by the numebr you got from the former calculation, and you'd get a realiable estimation of how many generators you actually need to generate a planetary shield.

Which means we've only ever seen one planet that could probably do it.

Take this how you want, I'm not trying to disprove anything here, just musing.

During the Galactic Civil War, planetary shields wouldn't be useful at all. That would be like trying to quell the insurgency in Iraq with air power. The most advanced installation the Rebels set up was on Hoth and that only because no one in their right mind would even go there.

We very well may be looking at a period of relative peace prior to the Clone Wars, so even if the planetary shield technology existed, many planets may not have bothered to set one up, or maybe let an older system degrade.

However. Both the Republic and CIS managed to mobilize rather large military forces. The fact that in a galaxy-spanning war like the Clone Wars, no one ever thought to use it or turn it on make the prospect of planetary shielding highly suspect.

You know, that and the fact that it's an invention of the EU.

[Mike DiCenso]

Actually, Oragahn that's another good point there about Geonosis' apparent lack of any kind of planetary defenses, shield or otherwise with TL gun emplacements when the Republic forces land, and this on a planet supposedly famed for it's weaponeering! In fact, it also makes SW sensor systems look bad (yet again) as there was no warning for the Geonosisians of the incoming Acclamators.
-Mike

Could have the Geonosian forces been warned, when they've been attacked by a force that even the Republic/Jedi knew nothing about?
Is there anything in the canon that can track ships in hyperspace?

Is it just arrogance, once more, to believe that no one would attack them with so much ships present here, or find them since it was a surprise to the Jedi to see that Geonosis was a major CIS world?

I'd like to say that arrogance was a big part of why the Republic forces so easily swooped down onto Geonosis with such ease, but then again, look at another similar situation with the Rebels on Hoth: there they had sufficent time to put up a theater shield, and some basic ground defenses. The Rebel fleet jumping out of hyperspace several planetary diameters from Endor also is indicative of attack fleets not jumping right within a few hundred km of a planet, either. If the Republic fleet did likewise, it still seems strange that such a highly developed society like the Geonosisans could be caught so utterly flat-footed.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

They argue that the novelisation points to the Endor shield protecting both the moon and the battle station, but it is contradicted by the movie.

For example, what's the surface area of the shield protecting the DS2, including the extruding tube?

Then try to estimate the surface area of a planetary shield for a moon like Endor, or a planet like Earth.

And then divide that by the numebr you got from the former calculation, and you'd get a realiable estimation of how many generators you actually need to generate a planetary shield.

Well, that's simple enough; let's assume for fairness' sake that the DS2 is truely 900 km wide, and that the shield bubble is a perfect sphere that is 50% wider than the station it is protecting. Let us also assume that the "stem" part of the shield is a cylinder (again for excessive fairness' sake), is half the width of the bubble portion, and has a height from the surface of 7000 km. Thus the following:


1.) Surface Area of a Sphere = 4 pi r 2


2.) Surface Area = 2(pi r 2) + (2 pi r)* h

The shield bubble portion being 50% larger means it is 1,350 km in diameter. Therefore 1,350/2 gives us a radius of 675 km, or a surface area of 5,725,552 km.

The stem portion will have a radius of 337 km (remember the diameter of the cylinder is half that of the bubble's), and a height of 7,000 km, or 713,575 km for the top of the cylinder, and 14,822,034 km for the side. Add those two numbers together and you get 14,822,034km. The top surface area can be tossed out since the shields blend together. So what he have left to do is add the two results for a total combined shield surface area of 20,547,586 km.

Pretty impressive. But let's see how that stacks against the surface area of an Earth-sized planet. The Earth, of course, is not a perfect sphere. But for the sake of simplicity, I'am going to assume it is one. The diameter of the Earth is about 12,756 km. So that gives us a radius of 6,378 km. Thus 6,378 squared is 40,678,884 * pi = 127,796,483 * 4 = 511,185,932 km. So some 20 million km versus over half a billion km! Divide the Earth surface area by the shield surface area and you get 24.8 times difference. So about 25 Endor shield projectors to cover the Earth in totality. Another cavet here; the shield would be hugging the ground. If we include that the shield had to be at least a few km above the surface, then the difference will only go up.

So in the best case scenario: 25 Endor shield generators and projectors.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Yes, and in the real case scenario, people should understand that they'll have to get used to living inside shield generators. :)

However, 25 shield generators, that's largely more than any EU book has ever proposed. Bothawui had one single generator (Zahn's insipid duology).

I don't remember any mention about how that shield generator was particularily huge either.

[Mike DiCenso]

Consider also that in "Whom Gods Destroy" [TOS3], the Elba II planetary shield was projected from the asylum around the planet, and even at it's weakest point on the opposite side of the planet it could still withstand phaser bombardment by a Constitution class starship. Compare that to the RoTJ and TESB shields which require huge, dedicated surface-based generators and arrays, and only cover a fraction of the planets they are based on.
-Mike

[AFT]

The EU is full of evidence of planetary shields, and the "rabid" warsies base their evidence on EU materials.

It's two different worlds, really. However, in the higher canon, the only one to some, you're right that planetary shields are frakin absent.

The largest shields ever known were those of Hoth and the two protecting the Death Stars, though with a bit of stretch, you could easily consider that it could possible to create a planetary shield, but this would require an important array of generators.

They argue that the novelisation points to the Endor shield protecting both the moon and the battle station, but it is contradicted by the movie.

Well, that’s the catch, isn’t it? They don’t seem to care if their precious EU is contradicted by the movies or even by the same EU, they try to disguise it resorting to the plain confusing Lucas canon policy but it doesn’t matter how I look at it the simple truth is glaring obvious: They pick whatever part is favorable to them and ignore the rest, as simple as that. That’s fine and all but the problem is that they want to have it both ways and we’re back to square one. I generalized quite a bit on my previous post but after cleaning all the dust that’s pretty much the general situation on the ST vs. SW debate, IMHO. But lets continue and read all those calculations dead ahead on this thread.

[AFT]

Consider also that in "Whom Gods Destroy" [TOS3], the Elba II planetary shield was projected from the asylum around the planet, and even at it's weakest point on the opposite side of the planet it could still withstand phaser bombardment by a Constitution class starship. Compare that to the RoTJ and TESB shields which require huge, dedicated surface-based generators and arrays, and only cover a fraction of the planets they are based on.
-Mike

That’s exactly the point of my previous rant, err I mean post. At best they got EU sources claiming planetary shields (C canon level or whatever) but yet they take those as granted while on ST we actually got examples on the episodes themselves, the highest canon possible but not surprisingly everywhere I look regarding the vs. debate (Sites, forums, fanfics, etc.) the sole idea of Trek having planetary shields is unthinkable and scorn at. There weren’t any planetary shields protecting Earth when the Breen attacked during the DW they say (The fact that we didn’t see the attack doesn’t even faze them) but the same can be said about quite a few examples on SW. The situation is very similar and the Trek side is actually on a better position to argue in favor of planetary shields since as previously noted it examples come from the higher canon. Sadly enough, that’s not the stance that our fellow SW debaters maintain, isn’t it?

[Who is like God arbour]

Well, that's simple enough; let's assume for fairness' sake that the DS2 is truely 900 km wide, and that the shield bubble is a perfect sphere that is 50% wider than the station it is protecting. Let us also assume that the "stem" part of the shield is a cylinder (again for excessive fairness' sake), is half the width of the bubble portion, and has a height from the surface of 7000 km. Thus the following:


1.) Surface Area of a Sphere = 4 pi r 2


2.) Surface Area = 2(pi r 2) + (2 pi r)* h

The shield bubble portion being 50% larger means it is 1,350 km in diameter. Therefore 1,350/2 gives us a radius of 675 km, or a surface area of 5,725,552 km.

The stem portion will have a radius of 337 km (remember the diameter of the cylinder is half that of the bubble's), and a height of 7,000 km, or 713,575 km for the top of the cylinder, and 14,822,034 km for the side. Add those two numbers together and you get 14,822,034km. The top surface area can be tossed out since the shields blend together. So what he have left to do is add the two results for a total combined shield surface area of 20,547,586 km.

Pretty impressive. But let's see how that stacks against the surface area of an Earth-sized planet. The Earth, of course, is not a perfect sphere. But for the sake of simplicity, I'am going to assume it is one. The diameter of the Earth is about 12,756 km. So that gives us a radius of 6,378 km. Thus 6,378 squared is 40,678,884 * pi = 127,796,483 * 4 = 511,185,932 km. So some 20 million km versus over half a billion km! Divide the Earth surface area by the shield surface area and you get 24.8 times difference. So about 25 Endor shield projectors to cover the Earth in totality. Another cavet here; the shield would be hugging the ground. If we include that the shield had to be at least a few km above the surface, then the difference will only go up.

So in the best case scenario: 25 Endor shield generators and projectors.
-Mike

To be an effective protection, such a shield would have to have its perimeter beyound the atmosphere.

• On the one hand, it would be necessary, when such shield would have to be activated over a long period [e.g. during a siege], to not disturb the dynamics of atmospheric processes. A shield, which has its perimeter only some kilometers above the surface of its planet, would cause serious disruptions in these.
• On the other hand, when there is still atmoshpere beyond the shield, an attacker could simply use biological or chemical warfare to contaminate the atmosphere above the shield. These warfare would sink to the surface as soon as the shield is deactivated. A contamination of the exosphere, the uppermost layer of the atmosphere, would be enough, to achieve such a goal. Though, the exosphere is the only layer from the atmosphere, from that atmospheric gases, atoms, and molecules can, to any appreciable extent, escape into space, not all will escape and especially heavy chemical or biological molecules can sink to the surface of a planet from the exosphere.

That's why a planetary shield, which should provide an effective protection, should have its perimeter above the exosphere, the uppermost layer of the atmosphere.

On Earth, the upper boundary of the exosphere is at about 10,000 km above the Earth's surface. Therfore, the perimeter of the shield would have to form a sphere around an earthlike planet with a radius of circa 16'000 km [from geocentre to the surface (6'378 km) and from the surface to the upper boundary of the exosphere (10'000 km)]. That corresponds with an surface area of circa 3'521'058'974 km².

To cover such an surface area with shield-generators, form which each single shield generator covers an surface area of circa 20'547'586 km², there are circa 171 shield generators necessary. A little bit more, than only 24 Endor shield generators and projectors.

[My calculation skills aren't the best. If someone could check my results, I wouldn't be mad.]

• • Even if someone would decide, that it isn't important, that the exosphere is protected by the planetary shield too - and that it is enough, when the planetary shield forms a sphere only 1'000 km above the surface of the planet, that would still be a sphere with a radius of circa 7'378 km [from geocentre to the surface (6'378 km) and from the surface to an altitude of 1'000 km], which corresponds with a surface area of circa 684'137'622 km², which would need 33 Endor shield generators.
    
    
    
    But it should also be noticed, that the 20'547'586 km² shield surface of the Endor Shield generator is probably far to high:
    • Wookieepedia gives an diameter for the Forest Moon of Endor of only 4'900 km. But the second DEATH STAR seems not to be a plametary diameter away from the surface of the forest moon.
      
      An altitude of 7'000 km is therfore out of question.
    • Furthermore, STARWARS.COM gives the second DEATH STAR an diameter of only 160 km and not 900 km. That meets the scaling [1], from Lucas independent persons have made, which are - as far as I know - not justified disproved.
    If someone know or can scale the real altitude of the second DEATH STAR above the forest moon, it would be possible, to calculate a more realistical performance of the Endor shield generator.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Mike's figure was the most generous, and that's based on generous exploitations of the 900 km DS9. Even the "tube", the conundrum between the DS2 and the moon, he made it bigger than what it is, by makign it a cylinder.

We simply see that even with the most generous calculations possible, we're light years away from the EU's claims.

Seriously, you can't even imagine how many generators would be necessary if we started to plug the numbers from a 160 km wide DS2.

Oh, yes btw, right now I'm lazy, I don't want to make the calcs. No offense. :)