The odd range of missiles and torps in the EGtWaT

[Mr. Oragahn]

They're listed at some hundreds of meters, which doesn't make sense at all.

However, such a short range for a self propelled projectile is quite absurd.
Above all, ranges are established on several things, the nature of the target being a major factor. However, the type of targets which can be hit vary a great a deal. However, by default, mobility of the target isn't accounted for, but it could. Most logically, a conservative methodology would require using a typical target that offers the smallest profile. Jamming might also be factored in.
The hit ratio might also be high. It's all a question of choices.
However, considering the small range that is given, we can be sure that there's no russian done here, by using the maximum absolute range as the effective one.

The idea is that if a target manages to put the range distance between itself and the pursuing missile, it can consider itself safe. It would mean that in space warfare where typical targets have no reason not to be moving, the chances of a missile managing to hit its target if it's located beyond the range values indicated in the guide are slim.

Does that work?

[Mike DiCenso]

What does "EGtWaT" stand for? Is this a Star Wars source book?
-Mike

[Lucky]

They're listed at some hundreds of meters, which doesn't make sense at all.

However, such a short range for a self propelled projectile is quite absurd.
Above all, ranges are established on several things, the nature of the target being a major factor. However, the type of targets which can be hit vary a great a deal. However, by default, mobility of the target isn't accounted for, but it could. Most logically, a conservative methodology would require using a typical target that offers the smallest profile. Jamming might also be factored in.
The hit ratio might also be high. It's all a question of choices.
However, considering the small range that is given, we can be sure that there's no russian done here, by using the maximum absolute range as the effective one.

The idea is that if a target manages to put the range distance between itself and the pursuing missile, it can consider itself safe. It would mean that in space warfare where typical targets have no reason not to be moving, the chances of a missile managing to hit its target if it's located beyond the range values indicated in the guide are slim.

Does that work?

We see similar ranges used in attacking ground troops in Landing at Point Rain, and at the end of the Ryloth trilogy when they bomb villages.

Why can't they just have horrible targeting systems?

[Mr. Oragahn]

What does "EGtWaT" stand for? Is this a Star Wars source book?
-Mike

Acronym for the book that came before that one. In fact I meant the new one.

We see similar ranges used in attacking ground troops in Landing at Point Rain, and at the end of the Ryloth trilogy when they bomb villages.

Why can't they just have horrible targeting systems?

Because that silly? If you drive, you know that it takes a few seconds to cover those hundreds of meters of range. If the aim is so shitty, any guiding system is pretty much superfluous and they'd be better off backing racks of dumb projectiles with no steering at all, like the missiles used in WWII.

And I don't take evidence of the CWS. It's just too pants on head retarded. Or should be believe that tanks can't destroy small trees and other brushes? Because that's exactly what the tanks of the TF were failing to do in the first episode. We should equally believe that clonetroopers can't actually hit anything at a range of 20 meters, or that Padmé can do some wall-run (the episode when she's in Coruscant's downtowns and hunted).

[Lucky]

We see similar ranges used in attacking ground troops in Landing at Point Rain, and at the end of the Ryloth trilogy when they bomb villages.

Why can't they just have horrible targeting systems?

Because that silly? If you drive, you know that it takes a few seconds to cover those hundreds of meters of range. If the aim is so shitty, any guiding system is pretty much superfluous and they'd be better off backing racks of dumb projectiles with no steering at all, like the missiles used in WWII.

And here I thought Star wars battles were patterned after WW1, WW2 and eearlier battles and dog fights?

And I don't take evidence of the CWS. It's just too pants on head retarded. Or should be believe that tanks can't destroy small trees and other brushes? Because that's exactly what the tanks of the TF were failing to do in the first episode. We should equally believe that clonetroopers can't actually hit anything at a range of 20 meters, or that Padmé can do some wall-run (the episode when she's in Coruscant's downtowns and hunted).

Trees? I recall strange pink coral stuff, but not trees. The B-1s were kind of surprised they could not just bash their way through also.

Not being able to hit the target at 20 meters is kind of standard for G level canon as I recall. I suggest you rewatch the opening to A New Hope for how bad blasters can be.

The force is strong in Padme, and I personally take SW:TCW over the movies when it comes to what the characters can actually do because live action limits what can be done more then CGI.

[Mr. Oragahn]

And here I thought Star wars battles were patterned after WW1, WW2 and eearlier battles and dog fights?

If it were strictly true, they wouldn't have any guided missiles.

Trees? I recall strange pink coral stuff, but not trees.

Yeah well same shit, huh. An AAT could partially break one by moving into it but the cannons were doing nothing, and later on a single droideka's deflected shot breaks a section of an even larger one. You know, the whole point being that the tanks couldn't blast their way through, lol.
And the stupid ranges. At some point the clonetroopers jump off some boulders and they barely land that we already see super battle droids reaching the edge, meaning that the troopers were like one to three meters ahead of the droids when they jumped. Pff.
My old animes dared do some stupid crap like that.

The B-1s were kind of surprised they could not just bash their way through also.

They're surprised they can't aim.

Not being able to hit the target at 20 meters is kind of standard for G level canon as I recall. I suggest you rewatch the opening to A New Hope for how bad blasters can be.

Why should I do that?
The first rebel trooper hit in one shot (miraculously?), but they had the excuse of having a door blowing off in their face in a loud and luminous bang. Know flashbangs?
Although it's a poor performance for most of it, it's quite mitigated in comparison to the completely unhampered condition both sides fight in during the TCWS fights.

The force is strong in Padme, and I personally take SW:TCW over the movies when it comes to what the characters can actually do because live action limits what can be done more then CGI.

What?
You prefer to go with comic book/cartoon CGI instead of what the movies actually show to gauge the abilities of characters? Despite the latest SW being full of CGI? Isn't that trolling?

[Lucky]

If it were strictly true, they wouldn't have any guided missiles.

YOu mean like those guided missiles used by the Japanese during WW2? I realize the guidenece system was a human, but is a droid really that different?

Yeah well same shit, huh. An AAT could partially break one by moving into it but the cannons were doing nothing, and later on a single droideka's deflected shot breaks a section of an even larger one. You know, the whole point being that the tanks couldn't blast their way through, lol.

Your point is what? Are you claiming that some areas can't be weaker then others, or have defects that aren't obvious from the outside?

And the stupid ranges. At some point the clonetroopers jump off some boulders and they barely land that we already see super battle droids reaching the edge, meaning that the troopers were like one to three meters ahead of the droids when they jumped. Pff.
My old animes dared do some stupid crap like that.

That sounds like ANH. Most blaster fights are just maybe 10 meters apart.

They're surprised they can't aim.

I seem to recall B-1s being aware that they are programed to have a bad aim?

Why should I do that?
The first rebel trooper hit in one shot (miraculously?), but they had the excuse of having a door blowing off in their face in a loud and luminous bang. Know flashbangs?
Although it's a poor performance for most of it, it's quite mitigated in comparison to the completely unhampered condition both sides fight in during the TCWS fights.

That first kill was a lucky shot. You later see Storm Trooper and body guards taking careful aim, and missing from maybe ten meters away. You are remembering with rose colored glasses.
the battle starts at 3:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhAq2RNN ... re=related

What?
You prefer to go with comic book/cartoon CGI instead of what the movies actually show to gauge the abilities of characters? Despite the latest SW being full of CGI? Isn't that trolling?

I said nothing about comic books. I was talking about Star Wars: The Clone Wars. The T-canon CGI series.

In spite of what you want to believe CGI is costs time and money to use. The more detail they add to the CGI the longer it takes to create and the more it costs. By using a less detailed model/puppet they can focus on things other then the things like the model's hair and clothing looking right, and that means they have the time and money to animate the superhuman feats.

Take a look at Mace Windo during the Ryloth Trilogy, and compare him to the live action movies.

[Mr. Oragahn]

If it were strictly true, they wouldn't have any guided missiles.

YOu mean like those guided missiles used by the Japanese during WW2? I realize the guidenece system was a human, but is a droid really that different?

Being able to shoot guided missiles and using your ships as suicide bombs makes for radically different forms of combat, don't you think? So why compare things with some hamstrung arguments like you do?
The point is quite obvious, no need to obfuscate things. There's clearly an overall inspiration, but GL has also taken some liberties.

Yeah well same shit, huh. An AAT could partially break one by moving into it but the cannons were doing nothing, and later on a single droideka's deflected shot breaks a section of an even larger one. You know, the whole point being that the tanks couldn't blast their way through, lol.

Your point is what? Are you claiming that some areas can't be weaker then others, or have defects that aren't obvious from the outside?

All I see is that tanks can't break those dry coral trees with their cannons, when simply moving into one of those trees had already broken one and a simple droid with its nimble cannons managed to largely damage one after hitting an area with no evidence of weakness whatsoever.
Point being that those trees should have logically been pulverized, the AATs hovering above the burning "trunks".

And the stupid ranges. At some point the clonetroopers jump off some boulders and they barely land that we already see super battle droids reaching the edge, meaning that the troopers were like one to three meters ahead of the droids when they jumped. Pff.
My old animes dared do some stupid crap like that.

That sounds like ANH. Most blaster fights are just maybe 10 meters apart.

Not all of them, and at least back then GL was smart enough to have plenty of explosions, explaining why people who were close to those explosions could actually have a problem hitting anything.
But having troopers survive a wall of high rate fire from plenty of droids pointing their arms at them less than ten meters away in broad daylight with no smoke no explosion, that's just having action scenes having also blasted whatever could be left of SoD.
Although it also explains why people prefer TESB, because stormies were once shown doing something and being remotely good at it, for a change. Of course it was too much to stomach for GL so he had to pedal back and even go several step too far backwards (Ewoks, even more retarded elite troopers, etc.).
But, again, for some reason, in the mess of the movies, the errors could somehow be forgotten.
In TCWS, it's just a silly wall of fire that's so cosmetically inoffensive that it's a snore and not even believable nor exciting. There's no reason why I should even accept any evidence picked from a lazily done cartoon-inspired product over the movies.

Why should I do that?
The first rebel trooper hit in one shot (miraculously?), but they had the excuse of having a door blowing off in their face in a loud and luminous bang. Know flashbangs?
Although it's a poor performance for most of it, it's quite mitigated in comparison to the completely unhampered condition both sides fight in during the TCWS fights.

That first kill was a lucky shot. You later see Storm Trooper and body guards taking careful aim, and missing from maybe ten meters away. You are remembering with rose colored glasses.
the battle starts at 3:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhAq2RNN ... re=related

I have the video.
Within seconds you already see several rebels down with stormies charging through a tight door and the entrance filled with smoke.
Rebels, on the other hand, taken by surprise by the flash (again, imagine being there with an entire space-seal blowing up in a mountain of white light), still manage to land a few shots and take down some of the first troopers to pass through the door (same troopers who entered while the rebels had turned their heads to avoid the debris and cope with the flash, and the first one literally acts as a meat shield, taking two direct hits), probably a fair amount of lucky shots there, but get pushed back by the wall of fire from the rifles. Stormies have a visor of some sort, rebels don't and blaster shots land next to their heads. I think it doesn't need to be explained that having that kind of crap blow up like half a meter from their heads repeatedly would kinda hamper their eyeball-based aiming abilities.
Look, one rebel trooper, the closest to the door, kneeling, squints as the light troubles his vision. Just after that a blast on the wall has him look away into the adjacent corridor. Earlier on, he's also seen holding his left hand next to his head to protect it and most likely his vision. The rebel standing behind him up is seen firing at some point without even being able to look in the direction of the door, his sight clearly encumbered.

As I said it's not stellar, but there's clearly some level of efficiency and a basis for a beginning of rationalization that you don't even get with TCWS.
Why is it so hard to admit that there's a cinematic huge difference between the fights choreographed in the movies and the unconvincing lazy ass job from the cartoons?
If GL had actually respected the orgy of flash and explosion style that ANH had used for the boarding and the prison intrusion sequences, then it would have been at least acceptable (although the considerably lower casualties in TCWS would have still been annoying).

What?
You prefer to go with comic book/cartoon CGI instead of what the movies actually show to gauge the abilities of characters? Despite the latest SW being full of CGI? Isn't that trolling?

I said nothing about comic books. I was talking about Star Wars: The Clone Wars. The T-canon CGI series.

lol, I said "comic book/cartoon CGI" to mean the CGI was done in that fashion (comic book/cartoon).
So please reconsider my question.

In spite of what you want to believe CGI is costs time and money to use.

The amount of time spent with rendering the scenes has nothing to do with the way they were stylistically planned, constructed and played.

The more detail they add to the CGI the longer it takes to create and the more it costs. By using a less detailed model/puppet they can focus on things other then the things like the model's hair and clothing looking right, and that means they have the time and money to animate the superhuman feats.

Take a look at Mace Windo during the Ryloth Trilogy, and compare him to the live action movies.

Sorry but I couldn't care less about the technology, that's just not the point you know. The show could have been done with a quality of CGI from the 90s, the idea would be the same. Heck, it could have been hand drawn for all I care, the problems would not vanish considering that the decisions taken have nothing to do with the technique.

[sonofccn]

I have the video.
Within seconds you already see several rebels down with stormies charging through a tight door and the entrance filled with smoke.
Rebels, on the other hand, taken by surprise by the flash (again, imagine being there with an entire space-seal blowing up in a mountain of white light), still manage to land a few shots and take down some of the first troopers to pass through the door (same troopers who entered while the rebels had turned their heads to avoid the debris and cope with the flash, and the first one literally acts as a meat shield, taking two direct hits), probably a fair amount of lucky shots there, but get pushed back by the wall of fire from the rifles. Stormies have a visor of some sort, rebels don't and blaster shots land next to their heads. I think it doesn't need to be explained that having that kind of crap blow up like half a meter from their heads repeatedly would kinda hamper their eyeball-based aiming abilities.
Look, one rebel trooper, the closest to the door, kneeling, squints as the light troubles his vision. Just after that a blast on the wall has him look away into the adjacent corridor. Earlier on, he's also seen holding his left hand next to his head to protect it and most likely his vision. The rebel standing behind him up is seen firing at some point without even being able to look in the direction of the door, his sight clearly encumbered.

As I said it's not stellar, but there's clearly some level of efficiency and a basis for a beginning of rationalization that you don't even get with TCWS.
Why is it so hard to admit that there's a cinematic huge difference between the fights choreographed in the movies and the unconvincing lazy ass job from the cartoons?

With respest Mr. Oragahn I don't see any notable difference in quality or tactical acumen between that clip and your complaint regarding TCW. At roughly 3:48 the first stormtrooper rushes through the choke point firing against a force predominatly kneeling/standing in the middle of the corridor. Over the next several seconds more stormtroopers follow essentially attempting to Zerg rush the defenders with frantic weapons firing. The result is death occuring in irregular intervals despite both sides exposing themselves more during the combat, granted the Rebels were on the losing end of the exchange but they make a play for it as opposed to being snuffed with a sweep or two of automatic fire. @ 4:03 there are still guys backpeddling out around the corridor even through at this point there is a virtual wall of stormtroopers firing on auto who should be able to cut down three guys. @ 4:20-4-28 we are treated to another firefight where both sides stand out in the open. Again, like the previous one, deaths are sporadic with two droids able to pass through unscathed between.

So I'd argue even back during the original movie GL was far more concerned with the "flash", the "pew-pew" lasers, then actual military compentence. That while you may disagree with the direction he chose to go in it is his chosen direction and has just as valid roots going back to the very start as any interpetation you have presented.

[Lucky]

Being able to shoot guided missiles and using your ships as suicide bombs makes for radically different forms of combat, don't you think? So why compare things with some hamstrung arguments like you do?
The point is quite obvious, no need to obfuscate things. There's clearly an overall inspiration, but GL has also taken some liberties.

I fail to see the difference between a missile guidance system and a human when the guidance system can pass the Turing Test.

All I see is that tanks can't break those dry coral trees with their cannons, when simply moving into one of those trees had already broken one and a simple droid with its nimble cannons managed to largely damage one after hitting an area with no evidence of weakness whatsoever.
Point being that those trees should have logically been pulverized, the AATs hovering above the burning "trunks".

You must have missed the fact said tanks couldn't crater the ground in episode one, but were expected to destroy shielded fighters. Coral like structures with unknown properties is far more understandable then dirt with grass growing on it being able to resist the same weapons..

Not all of them, and at least back then GL was smart enough to have plenty of explosions, explaining why people who were close to those explosions could actually have a problem hitting anything.
But having troopers survive a wall of high rate fire from plenty of droids pointing their arms at them less than ten meters away in broad daylight with no smoke no explosion, that's just having action scenes having also blasted whatever could be left of SoD.
Although it also explains why people prefer TESB, because stormies were once shown doing something and being remotely good at it, for a change. Of course it was too much to stomach for GL so he had to pedal back and even go several step too far backwards (Ewoks, even more retarded elite troopers, etc.).
But, again, for some reason, in the mess of the movies, the errors could somehow be forgotten.
In TCWS, it's just a silly wall of fire that's so cosmetically inoffensive that it's a snore and not even believable nor exciting. There's no reason why I should even accept any evidence picked from a lazily done cartoon-inspired product over the movies.

The Cartoons matches the movies almost perfectly when it comes to combat and capability. The people might look like they are carved out of wood, vehicles slightly less detailed, but that has no bearing of the fact combat is almost identical.

I have the video.
Within seconds you already see several rebels down with stormies charging through a tight door and the entrance filled with smoke.
Rebels, on the other hand, taken by surprise by the flash (again, imagine being there with an entire space-seal blowing up in a mountain of white light), still manage to land a few shots and take down some of the first troopers to pass through the door (same troopers who entered while the rebels had turned their heads to avoid the debris and cope with the flash, and the first one literally acts as a meat shield, taking two direct hits), probably a fair amount of lucky shots there, but get pushed back by the wall of fire from the rifles. Stormies have a visor of some sort, rebels don't and blaster shots land next to their heads. I think it doesn't need to be explained that having that kind of crap blow up like half a meter from their heads repeatedly would kinda hamper their eyeball-based aiming abilities.
Look, one rebel trooper, the closest to the door, kneeling, squints as the light troubles his vision. Just after that a blast on the wall has him look away into the adjacent corridor. Earlier on, he's also seen holding his left hand next to his head to protect it and most likely his vision. The rebel standing behind him up is seen firing at some point without even being able to look in the direction of the door, his sight clearly encumbered.

As I said it's not stellar, but there's clearly some level of efficiency and a basis for a beginning of rationalization that you don't even get with TCWS.
Why is it so hard to admit that there's a cinematic huge difference between the fights choreographed in the movies and the unconvincing lazy ass job from the cartoons?
If GL had actually respected the orgy of flash and explosion style that ANH had used for the boarding and the prison intrusion sequences, then it would have been at least acceptable (although the considerably lower casualties in TCWS would have still been annoying).

I see improbable missing by both sides throughout the entire fight, and the smoke argument doesn't really cut it because the body guards didn't need to see the storm troopers to shoot the door way. Smurf, they are both missing without the smoke.

Given G-level canon says storm trooper helmets make it hard to see anything i think you need to rethink your argument a bit. GL respected his earlier work by having similar battles in all parts.

lol, I said "comic book/cartoon CGI" to mean the CGI was done in that fashion (comic book/cartoon).
So please reconsider my question.

We are talking about Star Wars here. Star Wars has a canon ladder with comics below SW:TCW.

The amount of time spent with rendering the scenes has nothing to do with the way they were stylistically planned, constructed and played.

Last time I checked this is completely wrong. The more detail something has the longer it takes to animate, and the longer it takes to animate the more expensive it is.

Sorry but I couldn't care less about the technology, that's just not the point you know. The show could have been done with a quality of CGI from the 90s, the idea would be the same. Heck, it could have been hand drawn for all I care, the problems would not vanish considering that the decisions taken have nothing to do with the technique.

You are remembering the movies with rose colored glasses. AAT are just as useless in the movies as they are in SW:TCW, and aim is just as bad. The difference in quality as you put it is small at worst. Not liking an art style is not reason to disregard it. Star Wars has never been about competent military forces..

[Mr. Oragahn]

I have the video.
Within seconds you already see several rebels down with stormies charging through a tight door and the entrance filled with smoke.
Rebels, on the other hand, taken by surprise by the flash (again, imagine being there with an entire space-seal blowing up in a mountain of white light), still manage to land a few shots and take down some of the first troopers to pass through the door (same troopers who entered while the rebels had turned their heads to avoid the debris and cope with the flash, and the first one literally acts as a meat shield, taking two direct hits), probably a fair amount of lucky shots there, but get pushed back by the wall of fire from the rifles. Stormies have a visor of some sort, rebels don't and blaster shots land next to their heads. I think it doesn't need to be explained that having that kind of crap blow up like half a meter from their heads repeatedly would kinda hamper their eyeball-based aiming abilities.
Look, one rebel trooper, the closest to the door, kneeling, squints as the light troubles his vision. Just after that a blast on the wall has him look away into the adjacent corridor. Earlier on, he's also seen holding his left hand next to his head to protect it and most likely his vision. The rebel standing behind him up is seen firing at some point without even being able to look in the direction of the door, his sight clearly encumbered.

As I said it's not stellar, but there's clearly some level of efficiency and a basis for a beginning of rationalization that you don't even get with TCWS.
Why is it so hard to admit that there's a cinematic huge difference between the fights choreographed in the movies and the unconvincing lazy ass job from the cartoons?

With respest Mr. Oragahn I don't see any notable difference in quality or tactical acumen between that clip and your complaint regarding TCW. At roughly 3:48 the first stormtrooper rushes through the choke point firing against a force predominatly kneeling/standing in the middle of the corridor. Over the next several seconds more stormtroopers follow essentially attempting to Zerg rush the defenders with frantic weapons firing. The result is death occuring in irregular intervals despite both sides exposing themselves more during the combat, granted the Rebels were on the losing end of the exchange but they make a play for it as opposed to being snuffed with a sweep or two of automatic fire. @ 4:03 there are still guys backpeddling out around the corridor even through at this point there is a virtual wall of stormtroopers firing on auto who should be able to cut down three guys. @ 4:20-4-28 we are treated to another firefight where both sides stand out in the open. Again, like the previous one, deaths are sporadic with two droids able to pass through unscathed between.

So I'd argue even back during the original movie GL was far more concerned with the "flash", the "pew-pew" lasers, then actual military compentence. That while you may disagree with the direction he chose to go in it is his chosen direction...

O rly? :)

...and has just as valid roots going back to the very start as any interpetation you have presented.

I hoped people would actually be able to see the glaring differences. Reread my post please. You have walls of smoke, flashes and considerable explosions in tight. There is clearly some heavy action going on and the spectator’s attention is drawn away from the sole action of bolts. There’s a dynamic setting, plenty of loud bangs and bright flashes that saturate the screen (and therefore the people’s retinas), etc.
Yes, the military performance is crap, but the overall effect is very different from what you get from TCWS, with its endless exchanges of lasers which seem to have one single purpose: producing some fancy animated wallpaper and nothing else.
And yes, the cases are worse. Without the flares/flashes, without the numerous explosions, you’re left with pew pew action that is boring. It is made flat, there’s even less tension and pressure caused by a sufficient quantity of auxiliary effects (the explosions and the flashes). TCWS’s battles are so clean that all there is about the action is laser bolts moving one way or another, and that is all. Gone are the extra effects which impressed people back in the 70s.

And then, of course, the ranges and accuracies are clearly worse. I picked the first episode and a clear example with absolute evidence that the three clonetroopers had to be standing like a couple meters ahead from the super battledroids before jumping over the edge.
Let’s not get started on the case with the droids and troopers exchanging fire in that debris field with soldiers on both sides being as static as street lamps!
Hell, even M. Bay understands the importance of explosions and the need for an overall noise that helps masking the nonsense that would otherwise largely break SoD if the battles were just too clean.

Finally, with GL having the droids possess the shittiest aim in all science fiction, he has even removed another layer of tension his stormies could at least rely on. Droids couldn’t even come up with a Strike Back because they’re just too made of Fail. But not knowing when to stop, GL had to make things even more absurd in the CGI series, having clonetroopers often seen suffering the same absurd lack of shooting accuracy.

Isn’t it a pity that the cinematic sequences of the Kotor MMO surpass by far the stuff made from GL?
TCWS is too cartoonish to be taken at face value. It doesn’t even try to pretend. Some people can cope with that choice, some can’t. I’m on the side that can’t.

Being able to shoot guided missiles and using your ships as suicide bombs makes for radically different forms of combat, don't you think? So why compare things with some hamstrung arguments like you do?
The point is quite obvious, no need to obfuscate things. There's clearly an overall inspiration, but GL has also taken some liberties.

I fail to see the difference between a missile guidance system and a human when the guidance system can pass the Turing Test.

So you fail to see the difference of tactical fashion between say, a fighter shooting missiles at its target and a fighter used as the bomb itself?
Com’on this is just too silly.

All I see is that tanks can't break those dry coral trees with their cannons, when simply moving into one of those trees had already broken one and a simple droid with its nimble cannons managed to largely damage one after hitting an area with no evidence of weakness whatsoever.
Point being that those trees should have logically been pulverized, the AATs hovering above the burning "trunks".

You must have missed the fact said tanks couldn't crater the ground in episode one, but were expected to destroy shielded fighters.

When is it ever said that they were expected to shoot down the fighters while shielded?

Besides, droidekas didn’t have any spectacular firepower if you remember in Episode I. However, the explosions made by the AATs’ cannons still were objectively more impressive than those made by blasters, in Episode I.
You still have those “trees” which still crumble under their own weight if pushed, including a very large one. Heck later on a whole column of AATs actually are shown plowing through plants as small as those which stopped them earlier on. Yeah, I guess moving at 5 kmh is much more effective than using the tanks’ main cannon. A single shot capable of blowing up another AAT where blaster bolts only bounce off the hull.
Truly, this is totally coherent.
In fact that seems to be a point widely recognized, that the firepower is just all too silly and more than ever, just like the aim, they follow what the plot demands without any effort whatsoever to look believable, so much that contradictions are blazing within minutes.

Not all of them, and at least back then GL was smart enough to have plenty of explosions, explaining why people who were close to those explosions could actually have a problem hitting anything.
But having troopers survive a wall of high rate fire from plenty of droids pointing their arms at them less than ten meters away in broad daylight with no smoke no explosion, that's just having action scenes having also blasted whatever could be left of SoD.
Although it also explains why people prefer TESB, because stormies were once shown doing something and being remotely good at it, for a change. Of course it was too much to stomach for GL so he had to pedal back and even go several step too far backwards (Ewoks, even more retarded elite troopers, etc.).
But, again, for some reason, in the mess of the movies, the errors could somehow be forgotten.
In TCWS, it's just a silly wall of fire that's so cosmetically inoffensive that it's a snore and not even believable nor exciting. There's no reason why I should even accept any evidence picked from a lazily done cartoon-inspired product over the movies.

The Cartoons matches the movies almost perfectly when it comes to combat and capability. The people might look like they are carved out of wood, vehicles slightly less detailed, but that has no bearing of the fact combat is almost identical.

Nope. TCWS have largely worsened the dumbness of the droids, and made them beyond pathetic just for comical relief and had such contempt for firepower and aim that I just couldn’t be bother watching beyond season 1. One season of that junk was already too much.

I have the video.
Within seconds you already see several rebels down with stormies charging through a tight door and the entrance filled with smoke.
Rebels, on the other hand, taken by surprise by the flash (again, imagine being there with an entire space-seal blowing up in a mountain of white light), still manage to land a few shots and take down some of the first troopers to pass through the door (same troopers who entered while the rebels had turned their heads to avoid the debris and cope with the flash, and the first one literally acts as a meat shield, taking two direct hits), probably a fair amount of lucky shots there, but get pushed back by the wall of fire from the rifles. Stormies have a visor of some sort, rebels don't and blaster shots land next to their heads. I think it doesn't need to be explained that having that kind of crap blow up like half a meter from their heads repeatedly would kinda hamper their eyeball-based aiming abilities.
Look, one rebel trooper, the closest to the door, kneeling, squints as the light troubles his vision. Just after that a blast on the wall has him look away into the adjacent corridor. Earlier on, he's also seen holding his left hand next to his head to protect it and most likely his vision. The rebel standing behind him up is seen firing at some point without even being able to look in the direction of the door, his sight clearly encumbered.

As I said it's not stellar, but there's clearly some level of efficiency and a basis for a beginning of rationalization that you don't even get with TCWS.
Why is it so hard to admit that there's a cinematic huge difference between the fights choreographed in the movies and the unconvincing lazy ass job from the cartoons?
If GL had actually respected the orgy of flash and explosion style that ANH had used for the boarding and the prison intrusion sequences, then it would have been at least acceptable (although the considerably lower casualties in TCWS would have still been annoying).

I see improbable missing by both sides throughout the entire fight, and the smoke argument doesn't really cut it because the body guards didn't need to see the storm troopers to shoot the door way. Smurf, they are both missing without the smoke.

Given G-level canon says storm trooper helmets make it hard to see anything i think you need to rethink your argument a bit. GL respected his earlier work by having similar battles in all parts.

Bodyguards have to aim with their semi-automatic at the door by using their mere eyesight.
See this article: http://www.wired.com/science/discoverie ... ntPage=all#

lol, I said "comic book/cartoon CGI" to mean the CGI was done in that fashion (comic book/cartoon).
So please reconsider my question.

We are talking about Star Wars here. Star Wars has a canon ladder with comics below SW:TCW.

Read what I said. You’d be hard pressed seeing me talk of comic books. I talk of style of TCWS, its art direction and choices made about how to build action; you talk of products called comic books. There again you completely miss my point.
I expect that one post later you will have sufficiently dodged the obvious meaning of the point I made and which you don’t want to address that you’ll actually be able to claim that you have forgotten what all of this was about.

The amount of time spent with rendering the scenes has nothing to do with the way they were stylistically planned, constructed and played.

Last time I checked this is completely wrong. The more detail something has the longer it takes to animate, and the longer it takes to animate the more expensive it is.

Those elements are among the fastest to compute in the CGI render pipeline. They’d make little to no difference to the lighting (those flashes would cast basic shadows at best and for a very brief time when simply not being effects cheaply yet effectively saturating the screen) and obviously be completely unrelated to character animation: aside from actually having the characters behave differently eventually, if the action was led differently, the use of a different style and other kind of low budget effects would have no relation at all to the complexity of animation.
And, excuse me but are we talking about the same dude who considered that he couldn’t make his movies because the technology wasn’t ready? Aren’t we talking about effects which are so cheap that they could be rendered in real time in a game engine and look a thousand times better than the shit we get for most explosion effects, or that any fan film can actually afford them? Oh yes. And let’s get a step further by remembering that GL is literally sitting on a mountain of cash. Not that using flash effects, flares and debris-throwing explosions would really leave such a dent in the budget. That was just icing on the cake, rite.

Sorry but I couldn't care less about the technology, that's just not the point you know. The show could have been done with a quality of CGI from the 90s, the idea would be the same. Heck, it could have been hand drawn for all I care, the problems would not vanish considering that the decisions taken have nothing to do with the technique.

You are remembering the movies with rose colored glasses. AAT are just as useless in the movies as they are in SW:TCW, and aim is just as bad. The difference in quality as you put it is small at worst. Not liking an art style is not reason to disregard it. Star Wars has never been about competent military forces..

Sure. Please go watch the first season of TCWS and we’ll see if you can continue to pretend it’s exactly the same stuff going on. It is just not possible. There are lows which the movies never dared reach.

[sonofccn]

O rly? :)

I do and did make that claim yes. :)

I hoped people would actually be able to see the glaring differences. Reread my post please. You have walls of smoke, flashes and considerable explosions in tight. There is clearly some heavy action going on and the spectator’s attention is drawn away from the sole action of bolts. There’s a dynamic setting, plenty of loud bangs and bright flashes that saturate the screen (and therefore the people’s retinas), etc.

The issue through is not whether you like the ANH battle or think it was done "correctly". That's a subjective opinion which can't really be argued. What we are doing is objectively comparing the performance of the military forces, forces you alleged were "better" in the OT citing "rationalization" to explain the poor performance. All that smoke and catching a "flashbang" in the face which was in the post I was responding to.

Now that we can debate, and I provided evidence showing where your "rationalization" don't hold, and I'm happy to do so but if you merely want to say the style of the OT battle was better and you disagree with the stylistic choices GL made after well that is your opinion and choice.

And then, of course, the ranges and accuracies are clearly worse.

So we are objectively comparing performance? Again to repeat myself accuracy in the ANH battle is completely atrocious, with the second firefight I highlighted for you showing men standing like lamposts blazing away with virtually no result, and I fail to see how the accuracy/range of anything during the boarding of the Tantive IV is notably superior to this starting @ around the 4:00 mark.

Finally, with GL having the droids possess the shittiest aim in all science fiction,

Well we can compare examples, such as how stormtroopers failed against main characters, but they don't come off as having objectively worse accuracy than stormtroopers/Imperials.

GL had to make things even more absurd in the CGI series, having clonetroopers often seen suffering the same absurd lack of shooting accuracy.

Looking back at the battle you held up as a "superior" example I don't see clonetroopers' accuracy notably worse than either stormtroopers or the Rebel soldiers. So which specific example of a generic "good guy" are you thinking of that demostrates good accuracy.

Isn’t it a pity that the cinematic sequences of the Kotor MMO surpass by far the stuff made from GL?

Wouldn't know. Never played any KOTOR games.

TCWS is too cartoonish to be taken at face value. It doesn’t even try to pretend. Some people can cope with that choice, some can’t. I’m on the side that can’t.

Which is fine. No one is saying you have to like TCW but you are and have argued that GL is betraying the OT, that the TCW is fundimentally different specificly that the scale is too small, forces are too incompetent not threatening enough etc. Things which could be fairly argued were there all the way back in the very first movie regardless if they particuarly grabbed you at that time.

[Mr. Oragahn]

O rly? :)

I do and did make that claim yes. :)

I hoped people would actually be able to see the glaring differences. Reread my post please. You have walls of smoke, flashes and considerable explosions in tight. There is clearly some heavy action going on and the spectator’s attention is drawn away from the sole action of bolts. There’s a dynamic setting, plenty of loud bangs and bright flashes that saturate the screen (and therefore the people’s retinas), etc.

The issue through is not whether you like the ANH battle or think it was done "correctly". That's a subjective opinion which can't really be argued. What we are doing is objectively comparing the performance of the military forces, forces you alleged were "better" in the OT citing "rationalization" to explain the poor performance. All that smoke and catching a "flashbang" in the face which was in the post I was responding to.

Now that we can debate, and I provided evidence showing where your "rationalization" don't hold, and I'm happy to do so but if you merely want to say the style of the OT battle was better and you disagree with the stylistic choices GL made after well that is your opinion and choice.

I argued that the style was better at offering solutions, not just that it was simply cinematically superior (although I think it also is).
The rationalization in ANH totally holds. Not only that, but when the heroes were escaping the Death Star, aside from them benefiting character shields, the troopers had orders not to kill them (otherwise Tarkin's very risky gamble would have failed). They just had to look convincing. Same stuff with the TIE fighters.
In the OT, it's really in ROTJ that Lucas turned the stormtroopers into idiots against teddybears (instead of wookiees).

And then, of course, the ranges and accuracies are clearly worse.

So we are objectively comparing performance? Again to repeat myself accuracy in the ANH battle is completely atrocious, with the second firefight I highlighted for you showing men standing like lamposts blazing away with virtually no result, and I fail to see how the accuracy/range of anything during the boarding of the Tantive IV is notably superior to this starting @ around the 4:00 mark.

This is just not good. You pick a case of the most acceptable performances ever seen: troopers of both sides are clearly separated by hundreds of meters in most cases, they're running (so are most of the ennemy troops, trying to fire while going in the other direction), and there's a shit ton of fog (which in this case also happens to help explaining the eventual shortcomings in the aiming department), and despite the barrage of fire that is quite random under such conditions, we see that some clonetroopers get picked down the moment they put a foot on the ground.
Now, it would be much more honest and actually go look for the known shitty cases, such as the ones I referenced. We also had in season 1 or 2 droids standing 10~15 meters away from clonetroopers hiding behind crates, and neither side could really make a huge difference and the super battle droids were actually closing the (already short) distance.

Finally, with GL having the droids possess the shittiest aim in all science fiction,

Well we can compare examples, such as how stormtroopers failed against main characters, but they don't come off as having objectively worse accuracy than stormtroopers/Imperials.

Another problem of TCWS being that instead of being expandable and exploiting that to produce tension, GL focuses on very small skirmishes and each single clonetrooper becomes a "Character", with the must-have character shields 99% of the time. Coupled to the droids' bad aim, you get a total lack of tension. But it only gets worse when it is the super duper troopers who actually can't hit shit, completely failing to be convincing as superior warriors capable of holding the mark against the 200:1 ratio!

GL had to make things even more absurd in the CGI series, having clonetroopers often seen suffering the same absurd lack of shooting accuracy.

Looking back at the battle you held up as a "superior" example I don't see clonetroopers' accuracy notably worse than either stormtroopers or the Rebel soldiers. So which specific example of a generic "good guy" are you thinking of that demostrates good accuracy.

Seriously? See the first time the trooper carrying the gatling shoots his thing at a group of B1s located like 25 meters ahead. The sequence is completely butchered in the sense that the droids are suddenly ten meters away from the trooper and the small group of them has barely suffered any casualties. Wow, with a repeated gun. A pal jumps into the action and helps blasting most of the droids. Seconds later, a group of SBDs fire from roughly 25~30 meters away and the three clones can't even hit one with two auto rifles firing on auto and the gatling. That while there's a total lack of flashes and explosions, in play daylight.
Then comes the infamous scene I've been talking about, featuring the same three clones and SBDs, which despite the snail-like pace, manage to be standing like 40 meters behind the troopers... a distance that they'll close so fast apparently that the last of the three trooper has barely jumped off the boulder that the SDBs are already on the edge of the same boulder.
Now I really want to know why in the world I should pay this kind of retarded scenography any attention?
In comparison, the vast majority of the action in ANH takes place with heroes, rebels and stormies using their weapon on semi-auto only and achieving higher ratios of hit vs miss (Solo has a gun that makes so ridiculously overpowered explosions that it's again an excuse for the troopers not being able to focus properly on the action; the other excuse being that Vader probably wanted those guys captured, not killed, and that the stormies' standard procedure is to lay a barrage of fire in order to force the ennemy to surrender before attempting paralyzing shots). In TESB, the troopers' shots were landing much closer to Calrissian and Organa, despite the greater distance, their lower number, them being shot at by two "hidden" people and not just one shooting while running in the other direction, and that while walking through a thick cloud cast by R2.
It's not like the aim of the special commando droids was any better. That, however, isn't surprising as GL decided that they were disfunctional. However, the troopers standing in the door opening and shooting at the two droids standing behind the console like five meters ahead was another blazing trait of genius action. Stormtroopers never were that dumb. Then at the end of the episode, we have another trio of clones, one with a gatling, one in pistol akimbo and another with a rifle, struggling to take down a handful droids running towards them and covering the two dozen meters separating both groups.
It's a show that dares making Jar Jar the hero of a complete episode for crissake! That with droidekas being even more awful than ever. I mean com'on even the makers aren't even taking their shit seriously enough. I'd rather watch the Three Stooges.
Taking that show at face value without even taking into consideration the intent and style of it is completely absurd.

Isn’t it a pity that the cinematic sequences of the Kotor MMO surpass by far the stuff made from GL?

Wouldn't know. Never played any KOTOR games.

In terms of quality. Style may be a bit too DBZ for some (and TFU is just plain wank, I just can't figure how GL expects people to think this fits so neatly into his saga).
There's some silly shooting at times as well.

KOTOR MMORPG (three centuries after the RPG series)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPdJdEFilaU

The Force Unleashed series

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=256UbEOEKCs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0ra8rjxwHc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbxsSiOCDpU

TCWS is too cartoonish to be taken at face value. It doesn’t even try to pretend. Some people can cope with that choice, some can’t. I’m on the side that can’t.

Which is fine. No one is saying you have to like TCW but you are and have argued that GL is betraying the OT, that the TCW is fundimentally different specificly that the scale is too small, forces are too incompetent not threatening enough etc. Things which could be fairly argued were there all the way back in the very first movie regardless if they particuarly grabbed you at that time.

Let's not blow that out of proportions. I didn't say he's betraying anything. I said styles are different and this includes GL orchestrating the battles in a silly fashion without even the same amount of effort he had put once in his first movies (not counting TESB, it's barely his at all, even the script's best parts were not written by him IIRC).

[sonofccn]

I argued that the style was better at offering solutions, not just that it was simply cinematically superior (although I think it also is).

Then I must ask why you acted as if I'd failed to read your post and began talking extensively regarding the cinematic style as opposed to addressing my argument.

The rationalization in ANH totally holds.

No it doesn't I'm afraid. The stormtroopers didn't suffer a "flash bang", they have better armor and face covering helms and yet suffered horrendious accuracy. Further the second firefight I highlighted for you involved no "flash bang" no smoke with the two parties standing stock still out in the open a tiny handul of meters from each other and they couldn't hit each other with any sense of regularity.

Not only that, but when the heroes were escaping the Death Star, aside from them benefiting character shields, the troopers had orders not to kill them (otherwise Tarkin's very risky gamble would have failed).

Would it not be more logical and the least complex theroy to assume Tarkin would merely filter and limit the forces who were in position to stop the "Rebel Agents" rather than assume Stormtroopers are all complicit in a "secret" plan.

Same stuff with the TIE fighters.

Seriously? Again my proposal would be the simplier solution and wouldn't require Tie pilots to both be fanatical slave-soldiers as well as having expert and detailed knowledge of the MF to know how to inflict real damage without disabling the craft.

In the OT, it's really in ROTJ that Lucas turned the stormtroopers into idiots against teddybears (instead of wookiees).

Against teddy bears yes, Ewoks didn't appear until then, but he'd already amply demostrated Stormtroopers were ineffective and tactically inept. Which even you haven't denied merely have attempted to "explain" and "justify".

This is just not good. You pick a case of the most acceptable performances ever seen:

I'm afraid it is. You speak broadly of the clone wars. This is an episode from that series. Ergo it is valid evidence which can be administered, weighed and dissected.

troopers of both sides are clearly separated by hundreds of meters in most cases, they're running (so are most of the ennemy troops, trying to fire while going in the other direction), and there's a shit ton of fog (which in this case also happens to help explaining the eventual shortcomings in the aiming department), and despite the barrage of fire that is quite random under such conditions, we see that some clonetroopers get picked down the moment they put a foot on the ground.

Oh I'm under no delusion that Umbara does anything but make the Tantiv IV look like a day at the beach in comparison. But it was you were made the sweeping claim that combat ranges and accuracy was always superior in the OT to which I responded with evidence from the series itself.

Now, it would be much more honest and actually go look for the known shitty cases, such as the ones I referenced.

So, if I am to understand you, you are only willing to debate the aformentioned universe if before hand I am restricted to evidence you deem to support you? What kind of debate is that?

Another problem of TCWS being that instead of being expandable and exploiting that to produce tension, GL focuses on very small skirmishes and each single clonetrooper becomes a "Character", with the must-have character shields 99% of the time.

Well for starters clones don't have the highest survival rate. Second the numbers are not particuarly smaller than were used in the OT. I mean come on ANH was won with two dozen Rebel fighters.

But it only gets worse when it is the super duper troopers who actually can't hit shit, completely failing to be convincing as superior warriors capable of holding the mark against the 200:1 ratio!

Well its hard to believe Stormtroopers are elite warriors of the Empire as well. But that's my point, bad aiming has been constant since the OT.

Seriously?

Yes.

See the first time the trooper carrying the gatling shoots his thing at a group of B1s located like 25 meters ahead. The sequence is completely butchered in the sense that the droids are suddenly ten meters away from the trooper and the small group of them has barely suffered any casualties. Wow, with a repeated gun. A pal jumps into the action and helps blasting most of the droids. Seconds later, a group of SBDs fire from roughly 25~30 meters away and the three clones can't even hit one with two auto rifles firing on auto and the gatling. That while there's a total lack of flashes and explosions, in play daylight.
Then comes the infamous scene I've been talking about, featuring the same three clones and SBDs, which despite the snail-like pace, manage to be standing like 40 meters behind the troopers... a distance that they'll close so fast apparently that the last of the three trooper has barely jumped off the boulder that the SDBs are already on the edge of the same boulder.

Without a link I can't "see" what your talking about however from what you described I see nothing which couldn't have happened with a Stormtrooper. As demostrated he and his buddies can be firing in volley togather and not hit a cluster of men standing smack dab in front of and down the hall a little ways.

Now I really want to know why in the world I should pay this kind of retarded scenography any attention?

Because its T-canon and because you haven't been able to prove its dramaticly worse than observed in the OT.

In comparison, the vast majority of the action in ANH takes place with heroes, rebels and stormies using their weapon on semi-auto only and achieving higher ratios of hit vs miss

1. Considering weapons a generation previously were capable of full auto I always felt the more tepid blaster fire should be regarded as a byproduct of the era it was produced in rather than Stormtroopers being too mentally challenged to operate their own guns.

2. Even at the slower rate they are still firing fairly quickly, even more so when firing in tactically obsolete vollies, and should not be suffering the accuracy issues at the ranges observed.

3. If you really wish to get into a bolt count you'll still have to accept a stormtrooper isn't anymore effective than a clonetrooper since they'll both hit their target at roughly the same frequency. One merely wastes more pretty lights in the process.

Solo has a gun that makes so ridiculously overpowered explosions that it's again an excuse for the troopers not being able to focus properly on the action;

You are welcome to provide clips but IIRC the only place it makes a notably big blast would be the docking bay scene, well after the Stormtroopers began firing on him if I recall, which is hardly the last time he faces them.

the other excuse being that Vader probably wanted those guys captured, not killed, and that the stormies' standard procedure is to lay a barrage of fire in order to force the ennemy to surrender before attempting paralyzing shots).

Evidence for either claim?

In TESB, the troopers' shots were landing much closer to Calrissian and Organa, despite the greater distance, their lower number, them being shot at by two "hidden" people and not just one shooting while running in the other direction, and that while walking through a thick cloud cast by R2.

Well provide the clip in question and we can start comparing how close bolts got to thier intended target but considering both Lando and Leia lived to the end of the Saga this is hardly proof of good accuracy.

It's not like the aim of the special commando droids was any better. That, however, isn't surprising as GL decided that they were disfunctional. However, the troopers standing in the door opening and shooting at the two droids standing behind the console like five meters ahead was another blazing trait of genius action.

On par with Rebels and Stormtroopers exchanging firing without cover in a corridor.

Stormtroopers never were that dumb.

Actually the second firefight in ANH is dumber since both parties escew any attempt of cover to stand and shoot at each other like 18th century soldiers. From your description, this is Rookies maybe?, it sounds like the clones had enough sense to take some cover.

It's a show that dares making Jar Jar the hero of a complete episode for crissake!

Which has nothing to do with our arguments. Like the show or dislike the show it has nothing to do with engagment ranges and accuracy.

I mean com'on even the makers aren't even taking their shit seriously enough.

Yeah...its a continuation to a throwback to the seriels of flash gordon and buck rogers if they took it serious I'd be worried. But regardless its beside the point, the episodes have been made and we can only dissect them and compare them to the OT.

In terms of quality. Style may be a bit too DBZ for some (and TFU is just plain wank, I just can't figure how GL expects people to think this fits so neatly into his saga).
There's some silly shooting at times as well.

KOTOR MMORPG (three centuries after the RPG series)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPdJdEFilaU

The Force Unleashed series

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=256UbEOEKCs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0ra8rjxwHc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbxsSiOCDpU

And if that stuff is your cup of tea the best to you.

Let's not blow that out of proportions. I didn't say he's betraying anything.

However you want to phrase it you have claimed a notable difference between the OT and the clonewars. That the latter protrayal is notably inferior of the galaxy far far away in such things as accuracy and engagment range.

I said styles are different and this includes GL orchestrating the battles in a silly fashion without even the same amount of effort he had put once in his first movies

And I'm not seeing this "effort" on GL part during the OT. I see some stylisitc choices, the ANH battle is beautifully filmed, but none of these myraid explanations you argue exist to "excuse" the poor performance seen during the OT.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I argued that the style was better at offering solutions, not just that it was simply cinematically superior (although I think it also is).

Then I must ask why you acted as if I'd failed to read your post and began talking extensively regarding the cinematic style as opposed to addressing my argument.

I didn't see any valid argument on your side. You didn't consider the OT stylized action, notably in ANH, of importance. I argued that it was important. You claimed that the performance of troops in the OT, notably in ANH, was just as poor as in TCWS, which is just totally false. I admitted it wasn't stellar, but I pointed out that not only there were mitigating factors explaining the misses, but also pointed at cases in TCWS where the performance is so many times worse than anything you get in the old movies.
In a way, it doesn't surprise me that TCWS is such a snore. It couldn't care less about characters and the plots. It is a logical continuation, say a culmination of the boring action scenes in the prequels, in ways, even alluded in ROTJ, when Lucas overreacted to TESB and dumbed down the enemy's troops. In a way, when producing his presquels, Lucas couldn't decide if he should have taken his own stuff sufficiently seriously at times, and make it lightly comical during split seconds, and sort of goofed up and fell onto extremes, with his main characters supposed emboiled inside some considerably dramatic story, while legions of cretins fighting on both sides. That, and loads of forced humour.
It didn't help to have the droids in the prequels so dumb and inept, although at times clones were acting well enough, aside from the completely absurd strategies adopted by various general commands. But TCWS was sheer absurdity on overload. It's just that. It produces unbelievable situations, which have more to do with Looney Toons than some action movie. Anyone expecting me to take this kind of nonsense at face value has to be drunk.
TCWS is best taken as an overall indication of what happened. You don't focus on the details but on the major steps, described in succinct and vague enough ways. For example, you don't pick a ruler to measure asteroids and bolt length, you just consider that a separatist fleet considered that an asteroid field would protect their sixes and that they could fire at Republic ships from the fringe of that field. You really ought to keep things as general as possible.

The rationalization in ANH totally holds.

No it doesn't I'm afraid. The stormtroopers didn't suffer a "flash bang", they have better armor and face covering helms and yet suffered horrendious accuracy.

The corridor was soon littered with corpses despite the troopers had entered the corridor under fire from people who had their vision hampered, rifles almost on the hips. Considering the kind of accuracy one is to expect when firing any semi-automatic weapon from that position, it actually turns out to be roughly acceptable. What was not was the fact that they didn't hold their weapons in a way to obtain a better aim.

Further the second firefight I highlighted for you involved no "flash bang" no smoke with the two parties standing stock still out in the open a tiny handul of meters from each other and they couldn't hit each other with any sense of regularity.

Then rewatch the scene. The three stooges running away from the imperial troopers had perhaps been formerly fighting them earlier on. Which means breathing smoke from vaporized metal or plastic and their senses still affected by the bangs and flashes. Now, even if that is not true, figure out that as they decide to spin on their heels and face the troopers about to pass the corner, they barely have time to aim that a bolt already strikes the end of the corridor they're looking at and literally bathes the whole place in a vivid white and pink light:



We also note, but with some difficulty (and not on this picture), that the stormtroopers come out of a corridor section which was filled with some smoke.
There also is the possibility that they didn't have orders to exterminate every single Alderaanian trooper but push them back and capture as many as possible. Their firing barrages would therefore make a shit ton of sense here.
It's obvious that killing all of them would have made any interrogation hard to complete. And it's not like Vader was on their heels, wanting to recover the damn plans.

Not only that, but when the heroes were escaping the Death Star, aside from them benefiting character shields, the troopers had orders not to kill them (otherwise Tarkin's very risky gamble would have failed).

Would it not be more logical and the least complex theroy to assume Tarkin would merely filter and limit the forces who were in position to stop the "Rebel Agents" rather than assume Stormtroopers are all complicit in a "secret" plan.

Who said secret plan, as in, some big convoluted master plan? First, Tarkin has no mustache to twirl, secondly a mere push'em back but don't kill would have been enough. Eventually, an order like force them to surrender would also work, considering that there was zero reason the troopers would believe the guys in question could ever leave the battle station to begin with.
The problem with that is the lack of use of the stun setting. But that's been a problem since Lucas penned that part. Being under fire from stun bolts would have been plain enough to convince Solo and co to run away at any chance. Although the use of normal fire is a far more convincing as well. If we make a parallel with modern firearms, many security forces are encouraged to use their weapons in ways to incapacitate the enemy. Considering we've seen that a pistol in ROTJ can leave a mark on a shoulder but certainly not kill, it's possible that low yields could be used. However, the violence of th explosions on the walls certainly doesn't agree with that.
Perhaps the stun setting is very short ranged, said range less than ten meters at best, and not being just about accuracy but also about potency. It would certainly explain the use of the normal fire mode. Coupled with some order of push'em back the troopers would have to execute, it sorts of work.
Again, this is not to say that if they had orders to kill, they're suddenly turn into exceptional marksmen either!

Same stuff with the TIE fighters.

Seriously? Again my proposal would be the simplier solution and wouldn't require Tie pilots to both be fanatical slave-soldiers as well as having expert and detailed knowledge of the MF to know how to inflict real damage without disabling the craft.

There's quite something that doesn't work well with your idea. Your plan requires Tarkin being capable of precognition and being a god of probabilities as to gamble that the number of military spacecrafts he sends at the cargo ship, with orders to destroy it, will actually fail, and that the fighters won't hit shit against a large target that flies in a straight path, at distances of less than 100 meters!
Can't see a problem here?
Oh, oops, here's a TIE pilot who actually managed to hit the same lumbering cargo many times and put a hole through the engines. The aft section blew up, the air vented and the crew's dead now. Guess they won't be going to Alderaan any time soon now. Oh boy Tarkin is sooo going to be pissed off.
It's not like it was that hard for the TIEs to actually take down the ship, considering that it had already taken some damage, including internal, early in the skirmish, and that the first run had a TIE pilot fix all of his opening salvo on the back of the MF!
It is possible and even likely that Tarkin had a small task force sent on purpose, but the idea that he'd take the risk of having them behave as to destroy his only card in this extremely important gamble is absurd.
It's also interesting that after the TIEs manage to hit the MF clean, get through the shields and hit some internal systems, they suddenly become totally impotent.

In the OT, it's really in ROTJ that Lucas turned the stormtroopers into idiots against teddybears (instead of wookiees).

Against teddy bears yes, Ewoks didn't appear until then, but he'd already amply demostrated Stormtroopers were ineffective and tactically inept. Which even you haven't denied merely have attempted to "explain" and "justify".

I don't recall claiming stormies to be inept and ineffective. Please quote me doing so, and if you find any such reference, please provide the context and the bit I was replying to.

This is just not good. You pick a case of the most acceptable performances ever seen:

I'm afraid it is. You speak broadly of the clone wars. This is an episode from that series. Ergo it is valid evidence which can be administered, weighed and dissected.

You completely miss my point. You searched for a case where the fight actually makes more sense, and that against all of what the show has already shown on the other side of the spectrum before season 4 (yeah, you actually had to go look that far to start finding good stuff?), like if former cases of complete and total suckfail were irrelevant, that despite the fact that they're the most glaring ones and that all this mess started since the first episode of the series.
I consider the battle of Plan of Dissent one of the higher showings, and it is nothing new as far as I'm concerned.
I didn't deny that once in a while Lucas would actually give the audience some decent battle. What I said is that all those stupid cases of bad aim litter the series and their standard of performance is way lower than anything we got in the OT by far. Denying this is not going to get you any points in my book. I actually happen to watch the videos and I do know what I'm talking about.

troopers of both sides are clearly separated by hundreds of meters in most cases, they're running (so are most of the ennemy troops, trying to fire while going in the other direction), and there's a shit ton of fog (which in this case also happens to help explaining the eventual shortcomings in the aiming department), and despite the barrage of fire that is quite random under such conditions, we see that some clonetroopers get picked down the moment they put a foot on the ground.

Oh I'm under no delusion that Umbara does anything but make the Tantiv IV look like a day at the beach in comparison. But it was you were made the sweeping claim that combat ranges and accuracy was always superior in the OT to which I responded with evidence from the series itself.

You picked one line out of context. I was comparing ranges and accuracies between the OT and the TCWS examples I had already provided.
At no time I implied that you wouldn't find favourable cases. Trouble is that TCWS is a series where aim, accuracy, efficiency and tactical acumen are dictated by plot to unfathomable heights, it's just irritating.
It is a kiddy show (most of the time, even on that GL cannot be consistent) and concessions had to be made, and he made them, notably to fit with a more cartoonish style in absolutely every single department.

Now, it would be much more honest and actually go look for the known shitty cases, such as the ones I referenced.

So, if I am to understand you, you are only willing to debate the aformentioned universe if before hand I am restricted to evidence you deem to support you? What kind of debate is that?

No. I'm simply taking what I know of the OT and looking at cases of TCWS that are beyond retarded. They are things I could stomach in the OT, and I also gave the reasons why, but it is totally impossible in TCWS when the performance of clonetroopers and droids is completely pants on head retarded. Clones go from mmkay to complete lolwut, while droids oscillate between the usual FUUUUUCK typical of TPM and "they couldn't even hit a planet in front of them" type of lame action.
And for some reason, Lucas openly wanting his droids to be such bad shots is somewhat supposed to make the action interesting and create an immersing tension...

Another problem of TCWS being that instead of being expandable and exploiting that to produce tension, GL focuses on very small skirmishes and each single clonetrooper becomes a "Character", with the must-have character shields 99% of the time.

Well for starters clones don't have the highest survival rate.

Redshirts. Without the red. Nor the shirts.
In other words, complete anons in most cases. Those who survive generally are at least recurring over two or three episodes.

Second the numbers are not particuarly smaller than were used in the OT. I mean come on ANH was won with two dozen Rebel fighters.

Against defenses completely inadequate to do anything worthwhile, but which made sense in universe. And of course, of those fighter pilots, only three came out alive, with the help of the smuggler and Ben.
What I say is that by having small battles, Lucas even prevents himself from being able to show large casualties that would fit with the idea of ID-less clones = expandable, and droid squads make for totally insipid action.
I mean, seriously, how many episodes of stupid lame jokes, crappy action with flatline tension can you stomach?

I can't. I could watch half a dozen ANH-like movies and enjoy them. However, a season of Wallpaper Laser Bolt Action? Not so much.

But it only gets worse when it is the super duper troopers who actually can't hit shit, completely failing to be convincing as superior warriors capable of holding the mark against the 200:1 ratio!

Well its hard to believe Stormtroopers are elite warriors of the Empire as well. But that's my point, bad aiming has been constant since the OT.

The claim of anything elite about those stormtroopers came from ANH and ROTJ. In ANH, Lucas had Ben specifically point out that the stormtroopers had good aim. So either he was full of it, or the misses have to be explained.
As for ROTJ, Ewoks and dumb tactics syndrome thank you. Which is precisely why the ground fight in ROTJ is the part I dislike the most, while the space battle is probably the best one ever done.

Seriously?

Yes.

Well you have very bad sight then, I can't say anything else. I wonder if it's really worth my time arguing against what is nothing more than an obtuse opinion from someone who wants to deny all the bangs, flashes and smoke of the ANH skirmish, yet deny the very short range, bad accuracy and complete lack of mitigating factors from the cases I listed in the part you responded to. We're not getting anywhere and I am right. There's no way to claim the contrary bar some massive lack of honesty at this point.
Hey, see the picture I put above? Nothing like that happens in the cases I'm speaking of. Yet somehow you ain't seeing any difference. lol

See the first time the trooper carrying the gatling shoots his thing at a group of B1s located like 25 meters ahead. The sequence is completely butchered in the sense that the droids are suddenly ten meters away from the trooper and the small group of them has barely suffered any casualties. Wow, with a repeated gun. A pal jumps into the action and helps blasting most of the droids. Seconds later, a group of SBDs fire from roughly 25~30 meters away and the three clones can't even hit one with two auto rifles firing on auto and the gatling. That while there's a total lack of flashes and explosions, in play daylight.
Then comes the infamous scene I've been talking about, featuring the same three clones and SBDs, which despite the snail-like pace, manage to be standing like 40 meters behind the troopers... a distance that they'll close so fast apparently that the last of the three trooper has barely jumped off the boulder that the SDBs are already on the edge of the same boulder.

Without a link I can't "see" what your talking about however from what you described I see nothing which couldn't have happened with a Stormtrooper. As demostrated he and his buddies can be firing in volley togather and not hit a cluster of men standing smack dab in front of and down the hall a little ways.

Lame copout. Better to claim bad memories if you want to. Show me a stormtrooper from either ANH or ROTJ missing at such a short range, while there's no doubt that he's giving all liberty to dispose of his target as he may see fit. Don't forget about the eventual hampering environmental conditions either (like flashes, loud bangs, smoke, etc.).
Let's see you find an example of stormtroopers on a mission to kill yet unable to even hit a man standing up two meters from him.
Good luck.

Now I really want to know why in the world I should pay this kind of retarded scenography any attention?

Because its T-canon and because you haven't been able to prove its dramaticly worse than observed in the OT.

Like I give a shit. It's a cartoon, and silly things happen in this cartoon. I can't be asked to take at face value the content of a show clearly built along the rules of a cartoon against a live action movie or a CGI movie trying to look realistic enough.
The intent by the creators is so different that it's absurd to expect something like that from me or anyone.
You can continue to repeat like a broken record that it is T-canon, I'll continue to tell you that the show is written and shot in a way that doesn't stand to scrutiny as much as the movies do, and doesn't even try to. This was the case with the former Clone Wars cartoon, which was completely nuts on the other side of the spectrum.

In comparison, the vast majority of the action in ANH takes place with heroes, rebels and stormies using their weapon on semi-auto only and achieving higher ratios of hit vs miss

1. Considering weapons a generation previously were capable of full auto I always felt the more tepid blaster fire should be regarded as a byproduct of the era it was produced in rather than Stormtroopers being too mentally challenged to operate their own guns.

2. Even at the slower rate they are still firing fairly quickly, even more so when firing in tactically obsolete vollies, and should not be suffering the accuracy issues at the ranges observed.

3. If you really wish to get into a bolt count you'll still have to accept a stormtrooper isn't anymore effective than a clonetrooper since they'll both hit their target at roughly the same frequency. One merely wastes more pretty lights in the process.

Even when bolts miss in ANH, they make such a mess that you can feel the danger to them.

Solo has a gun that makes so ridiculously overpowered explosions that it's again an excuse for the troopers not being able to focus properly on the action;

You are welcome to provide clips but IIRC the only place it makes a notably big blast would be the docking bay scene, well after the Stormtroopers began firing on him if I recall, which is hardly the last time he faces them.

Pardon? You now want me to provide clips from ANH? Really? Are you kidding me? You'd be the only old debater around this place not owning a copy of ANH in any form whatsoever.
I mean com'on, there's gotta be a better defense than "I can't find a clip of one of the most well known and most debated sequences of ANH so what you say is shit."
Especially since you clearly are looking at the video, otherwise you wouldn't attempt making such detailed counter arguments based on how stormies poorly do.
Or... you're only working from memories. If true, you're welcome to say so and then explain to me why should I consider your opinion more valid than mine while I actually do watch the videos before pushing a claim when you don't?

the other excuse being that Vader probably wanted those guys captured, not killed, and that the stormies' standard procedure is to lay a barrage of fire in order to force the ennemy to surrender before attempting paralyzing shots).

Evidence for either claim?

Evidence for orders the largely silent troopers carry out? Evidence of an idea that actually works with the plot?
Damn, you requests get more and more extravagant and silly.
It's not like I'm claiming Vader turned gay by ANH either!

In TESB, the troopers' shots were landing much closer to Calrissian and Organa, despite the greater distance, their lower number, them being shot at by two "hidden" people and not just one shooting while running in the other direction, and that while walking through a thick cloud cast by R2.

Well provide the clip in question and we can start comparing how close bolts got to thier intended target but considering both Lando and Leia lived to the end of the Saga this is hardly proof of good accuracy.

Geez. I'm not going to provide a clip for fucking Empire. If you really don't trust me despite the fact that I'm just describing what my video file shows me, you'll have to look for one on youtube.
I could understand asking for evidence from an obscure episode of TCWS, but not from the damned OT. If you think I'm talking shit then so be it.

It's not like the aim of the special commando droids was any better. That, however, isn't surprising as GL decided that they were disfunctional. However, the troopers standing in the door opening and shooting at the two droids standing behind the console like five meters ahead was another blazing trait of genius action.

On par with Rebels and Stormtroopers exchanging firing without cover in a corridor.

Haha lol no.
Didn't you read? I said five meters. No flashes, no smoke, no bangs. No reason to pull punches. Clone punks firing at two droids standing up behind a console. Can't hit shit. Heck, if the commando droids have displayed the same kind of accuracy GL arbitrarily dialed up as to create tension minutes earlier, those clone troopers would have been long dead before they could even rise their guns.
If I could play both clips side by side you'd actually see how absurd your statement is. Yes, the performance isn't always good in ANH, but it simply isn't as poor as the example (another one) I picked.

Stormtroopers never were that dumb.

Actually the second firefight in ANH is dumber since both parties escew any attempt of cover to stand and shoot at each other like 18th century soldiers.

Sort of understandable when you sit in the theater, since the stormies were just around the corner. Would they keep moving in the same direction, one split second later and all the rebels would have offered the imperial troopers would have been their exposed backs.
Now, surely enough, one could have attempted to push it a few meters ahead to that perpendicular corridor. Another could have decided to dive and offer the least profile possible, eventually trying to rotate and point his gun at the coming troopers. Far from good either. Chalk it up to panic. Stormtroopers clearly were following the order of moving forth no matter what.
They still moved as to have two men on each side of the corridor, most of them advancing while partially ducking, while more troopers came from behind.
The problem, even that poorer performance doesn't reach the abyss of utter nonsense that we get in Rookies for example.
That's just silly. Most of the Rookie episode has both sides missing each other repeatedly at ranges shorter than a dozen meters, many times without any cover taken, without even the soldiers attempting to lower their profile. Then at random points, they suddenly do take cover, then suddenly they have a super aim, they even take their time posing and talking in front of droids before shooting them in the face, and suddenly this roller coaster of nonsense pulls you through another dive into insanity seconds later, with goons on both sides unable to hit each other at distance of something like five meters, more or less.
It's so all over the place, it cannot be taken seriously. There's not even a single hand to seize as to rationalize any of this.

It's a show that dares making Jar Jar the hero of a complete episode for crissake!

Which has nothing to do with our arguments. Like the show or dislike the show it has nothing to do with engagment ranges and accuracy.

It completely does. In order for Jar Jar to be a hero, the enemies have to be 500% inept and pathetic. It's TPM on overdrive.

I mean com'on even the makers aren't even taking their shit seriously enough.

Yeah...its a continuation to a throwback to the seriels of flash gordon and buck rogers if they took it serious I'd be worried.

Campiness doen't preclude taking your work seriously enough as to allow the audience to immerse itself into it, you know?

But regardless its beside the point, the episodes have been made and we can only dissect them and compare them to the OT.

If they were made as to be realistic, I would. Obviously, they're not. So why pretend?

In terms of quality. Style may be a bit too DBZ for some (and TFU is just plain wank, I just can't figure how GL expects people to think this fits so neatly into his saga).
There's some silly shooting at times as well.

KOTOR MMORPG (three centuries after the RPG series)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPdJdEFilaU

The Force Unleashed series

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=256UbEOEKCs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0ra8rjxwHc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbxsSiOCDpU

And if that stuff is your cup of tea the best to you.

Well, if that's all I get when I actually take time to find you nice videos... :(

Let's not blow that out of proportions. I didn't say he's betraying anything.

However you want to phrase it you have claimed a notable difference between the OT and the clonewars. That the latter protrayal is notably inferior of the galaxy far far away in such things as accuracy and engagment range.

Yes, he's clearly following more cartoony rules. I didn't say he didn't have a right to do so. I'm merely pointing out the difference of style in the way he handles the action, rythm, effects, etc.

I said styles are different and this includes GL orchestrating the battles in a silly fashion without even the same amount of effort he had put once in his first movies

And I'm not seeing this "effort" on GL part during the OT. I see some stylisitc choices, the ANH battle is beautifully filmed, but none of these myraid explanations you argue exist to "excuse" the poor performance seen during the OT.

Yeah sure, I guess explosions, flashes, smoke, plot related reasons and all that stuff just don't count.
Have a nice day.